'Constitutionally' Different Neighbours

Feroz

When I said ``friends`` I had one in particular.

Ofcourse I agree that many of them bear us no ill will as I don`t bear them any ill will.

Funny thing about quip.

re: Mantolives

Thanks for the reply and as to our ``friends`` from across the fense, do not mind them. They are not as bad as most think. Afterall, they are the only ones defending Pakistan on my interact board, when all the Pakistanis have fled from the good fight!

Listen to what our friends are saying and not to the tenor of their voices; pay attention to their words and not how they are saying them and you will realize that all they want is for us to get our act together and stop making a nusiance of ourselves.

I agree, with your idea on the evolutionary process for the 1973 document.

I hope that lawyer in you appreciates this morsel of mirth. A few days ago, a student of mine who is taking a class, came up to me with a question. The student wanted to know what was the name of the law in Pakistan, which punished a woman for the act of rape and wanted to know the law`s proper and legal name. The student was confused and wanted to know whether that particular law was called the Hudood Ordinances or the Jinnah Ordinances!?!?

Ciao

Dear Majumdar,

I agree with that restatement. It is about evolution of society... I just hope it is evolution and not degeneration.

Manto mian

(especially that the reason Jinnah`s vision never materialised was because of the grand communication gap between the leader and the followers and his inability to bridge it... )

I think the failure was more to do with social factors than just a communication gap.

Was MAJ `s (pbuh) vision of a secular country really acceptable to Pakistanis then or even now?

Was Jinnah`s vision of a democratic society really realisable in the West Pak society (unlike EPak/Bdesh) which was dominated by tribal-feudal elements where the middle class-intellegentsia was just too small in number at least in 1947. ML came to be hijacked by the worst kind of feudals like Mamdot, Kalabagh etc. within years of MAJ`s and LAK`s death and in hands of elements like this democracy would purely be a matter of form rather than spirit.

Plainly was MAJ ahead of his time/out of place in Pak society.

Would like to have your thoughts on this.

Regards

Dear Ferozk

What you have said is elementary and commonsense-

I have no disagreements with what you have written... the reason I was forced to comment on your post in the first place- despite knowing your views on these subjects - was because your initial post lent itself to a gleeful misinterpretation by our friends from across the border.

You, HP and I are on the same page on the issues enumerated - especially that the reason Jinnah`s vision never materialised was because of the grand communication gap between the leader and the followers and his inability to bridge it... As far as 1973`s consititution is concerned... I completely agree - except I would add that Objectives Resolution in its edited form became the ``substantive part`` under 2A which was undemocratic.

Sorry for the late reply- I am swamped with work.

Re: Mantolives # 114

Yasser, sorry for this delayed reply. You have raised a very insightful point and I wanted to comment on it.

First of all, I need to get the disagreements out of the way.

There is a major difference between a speech and a constitution. American constitution was a response to the failure of the Articles of Confederation, which did give the Americans a framework of how to establish the foundations of their political. The American government was not created on the basis of George Washington`s farewell address to the American troops at Valley Forge.

Besides, the preamble to the United States` constitution admits to the imperfect nature of its experiment, when it states that `` we the people, in order to form a more perfect union...`` The Pakistani constitution`s preamble gives sovereign political power to Allah and that implies that it is a perfect creation and thus, there is no need to improve upon it. Therefore, whereas the American constitution allows an evolutionary process, as you suggested, the Pakistan constitution does not and hence, your analogy to the American constitution with Jinnah`s speech seems to be a bit misplaced.

I still maintain that Jinnah`s speech of August 11, 1947 was an evocation. In fact, I admire that speech for its vision and its sense of purpose but other than these qualities, the speech offered no ground rules on how to make the polity, which Jinnah foresaw. Granted that Jinnah died before he could actualize his vision into tangible political goals did not also help the situation. It was a tragedy that Jinnah died, but that tragedy was miniscule compared to the tragedy Jinnah left behind by his failure create a viable policy framework to govern the new nation and give it direction.

You mentioned that the Jinnah Papers offer an idea for a policy for Pakistan, which Jinnah had. It does not matter what ideas Jinnah might have thought and said or wrote down, because in the end those ideas remained as ideas and he never achieved those ideas. The problem with an idea on a piece of paper, which is not realized is that it remains an idea on a piece of paper - nothing more and nothing less. In hindsight, it really does not matter a fig what Jinnah thought because the reality will always be that he left Pakistan with only dream and nothing more concrete than that and we as a nation must learn to solve our problems by grappling with the reality of our situation and not on the basis of what our founding dreamt about Pakistan.

On the agreement side of the debate, I agree with you that as flawed as it is, we must persist with the constitution of 1973.

However, as with the Articles of Confederation, we must also start to seriously think about replacing the constitution of 1973 at some future date. Afterall, it is better cut off the dead wood before it drowns you :)

Ciao

#132, naren {``That said, incidents like Gujarat are aberration at least in South India. ...As if, they are waiting to see what kind vocabulary you use to decide whether ``aberrate or not.`` I propose these hindutva types and bin laden followers be thrown in an island and let them decide among themselves. If we do that India will be a better place. ...
On an another note, judging by the content you posted on chowk, I believe You are a decent person unlike your hero Aurangzeb. ``}

Naren Bhai,
I agree with you comment. It is very heartening to note that South India negates Gujarat so well. May the rest of the subcontinent become like that. May I propose the British Isle for this island where the bin ladens and the hindutvas can have their kumbaya come to jesus hugfest? :)

Maharaja Aurangjeb is not my hero - I just defended the Rajput emperor`s right to be called an Indian.

Re: # 132
> I saw picture of a muslim man pleading for his life in Time magazine. ..
don`t worry - if ppl like u had ur way it will be hindus in india, australians in australia,
christians in france, sweden etc pleading for their lives.
At least that muslim was let off by the mob - in a role reversal, we humans will be wiped off by this species.

I can think up of a name for you in such a scenario - how does Nasir sound to you ? Like it ?

:)

Jai shri Ram

Re:bharath#130

[...Same ole same ole ``strategy``.......... ]

Lets stop blaming Pakistan for every massacare of hindus in Kashmir. The real culprits are the Kashmiri muslims - yes the ba$tards living in the Kashmir valley. We Indians are deluded into thinking that Kashmiri muslims are ok, rahter it is the big, bad Pakistanis who are fomenting terrorism. As a result, we keep giving a pass to the people who have really been waging a war against India - the Kashmiri muslims.

It was the Kashmiri muslims who started the fight in 1989 and have kept it alive. The LOC is all fenced up with hardly any cross-border movement, still the bombings and violence continues. Separatist leaders like Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umer openly preach sedition. It is time to recognize that we have a major problem with these people and it wont go away by negotiations.

What we need is a KPS Gill type character who will go and give the royal danda to Kashmiri muslims. Forget about autonomy and other BS. We need summary executions and encounters of any young man who looks sideways. That will end this nonsense once and for all.

---

while not exactly state policy in India, religious intolerance is also not as benign as a mere ``aberration`` either. State-sponsored massacres of 2000 innocent people and rape, mutilation, and cremation of hundreds of little girls and pregnant women is not exactly an ``aberration.`` Please select a more horrible-sounding terms so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.``

Hi Salim,
I grew up in south India ( Andhra Predesh). I lived in India for 21 years. I left India in 1993. While I noticed castiesm among hindus in certain parts of my state, I did nt notice discrimination against Muslims. we had few muslim students in class. Even though, they were a minority they were harassed because of their religion. But again, all my experiences are based on my schooling. I agree Gujarat massacres are horrible. I saw picture of a muslim man pleading for his life in Time magazine. It`s heart breaking. I am sure every one of the victims, who got killed by hindu mobs, is innocent and has nothing to do with train burning incident. That said, incidents like Gujarat are aberration at least in South India. The only communal relateed incident I experienced was my town was placed under curphew for three days as a precautionary measure during Babri incident.

---

Please select a more horrible-sounding terms so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.``


As if, they are waiting to see what kind vocabulary you use to decide whether ``aberrate or not.`` I propose these hindutva types and bin laden followers be thrown in an island and let them decide among themselves. If we do that India will be a better place.

On an another note, judging by the content you posted on chowk, I believe You are a decent person unlike your hero Aurangzeb.

Naren

HP sahib,

MAJ (pbuh) knew that he was dying when Pakistan was born. Maybe he should have done more to create set foundations of institutions or build a collective leadership.

But I do accept that MAJ was faced with a herculean task. Creating a nation is hard enough, building it is an even formidable task even for a healthy man with long years ahead of him let one a sick man who didn`t have much time.

Regards

Same ole same ole ``strategy``..........



..........................................





it doesnt matter this ``strategy`` has taken u to the s^it ole wher u are in.............................




http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 05 02 story_2-5-2006_pg1_1

34 Hindus killed in Kashmir




:-) * PAKSHITAN CONDEMNS ‘ACT OF OF TERRORISM’ :-)





* Hurriyat chairman calls for killers to be arrested

By Iftikhar Gilani




NEW DELHI: Unidentified gunmen shot dead 22 Hindus, including a nine-year old girl, in two villages of Doda district in Jammu and Kashmir late Sunday night. In a separate incident, 12 Hindus kidnapped on Sunday were found dead.




The gunmen killed the Hindus after dragging them out of their houses. The injured included a women and her daughter.............................................
...................

Re: # 127

> ... Anything hinuds do is twisted to ``prove`` that they have not accepted pakiland ...

Mohar - that was a direct to puki groins .... check out HP`s comment :)

#127

It is okay to be an idiot but why advertise it day after day? We have known it and have known it for a long time now....With this idiot on hand, who would believe that hindus are hoshiar? What a disgrace to his own people.

Is there anything different that you can write moharsadass?

Re: # 124
[...Simple fact is that if Hindus have accepted Pakistan, they would not have been flocking this site in droves....]

60 years down the drain - pakis are still quaking in their boots ... ``hinuds have not accepted us pakis... boo hoo.... big bad hinuds are still flocking to chowk.... boo hoo...``

Anything hinuds do is twisted to ``prove`` that they have not accepted pakiland - even the simple act of participating in chowk - a site that`s be definition designed for India and pakistan - is fact enough to prove the theory - even though each and every hinud here has expressely stated that they have no intention of conquering pakiland....

So sad....

manto:
pak. army would rather take things to a meltdown than to give up power (like 1971) and this time they have nukes... that meltdown point might not come tomorrow maybe not for ten years but unless the BIG MELT comes - talking romantically like ferozek did about future of pakistan is futile. That was my point. you are welcome to indulge in urdu shairi cliches.