'Constitutionally' Different Neighbours

HP the first picture is not from kashmir, its the indian airlines bringing back body of telecom engineer ``qatled`` (in a proper priscription beheading) by the taliban. This and the kasmiri killings make pakistani position in international and bi-lateral arena weaker. e.g. this calls for a couple of divisions for special forces in helmand, bigegr base in tajikistan, and GHQ can only squirm...considering they cannot seem to ``control`` the jihadis in kashmir.

and winter is not important..no snow in dilli or bangalore..or Doda for that matter? we have many festivals up-coming..ganesh, diwali, shivaratri and so on.

#119 by majumdar
“It was very smart of MAJ (pbuh) no doubt but not very fortunate for Pakistan. Once he was gone there was no collective leadership or institution to guide Pakistan.”

Dada,
I am surprised to read this from a seasoned person like you…

Institutions are not built in one day, one week, one month or six months or even in six years.

ranjit # 112 and # 118,

As avkrishna said your thesis is just “Very interesting perspective”.

Indian history does not support it…But Hindus are berry smart and intelligent people. No one knows what they have up their sleeves churri or Ram Ram :)

Simple fact is that if Hindus have accepted Pakistan, they would not have been flocking this site in droves. It is not only this site, even on Indian sites they obsess over Pakistan. Not a healthy thing for people who helped create Pakistan…

Good luck with your thesis…wont fly very far in History classes….

123 Jang,

It is the begining of the summer in Kashmir...It is also fun time there...
Enjoy while it lasts...

the different neighbors..



and then when indian kashmir held a paceful and well-attended ELECTION (ok, no 98% madate for anyone..but a good election anyways..) the Mohammed-ali-jinnah-if-alive whiners are still supporting killers of 22 hindus.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4961464.stm

Re: # 116 YLH
[....think they can get away with firing away from other people`s shoulders...]

May be... but what are you going to do?.... you still live in an islamic state which is getting more and more talibanized each passing day .... you father still can`t call himself a muslim.... you have to declare your own father a non-muslim to get a passport.....

May be everybody tells you otherwise are wrong - may be jinnah PUBH was indeed god-incarnate - but that still doesn`t take you pakis anywhere - you still don`t have a democracy, secularism or even the right to call yourself muslim.... and never will....

ranjit # 112 and # 118,

Very interesting perspective.

Rgds,

Yaseer mian
Earlier you used to start running to your mummy whenever you ran out of arguments, now you have started hiding behind anyone on street, making them your baap!
Now you have no arguments left to contradict that MAJ screwed up Pakistani state by leaving it with no directions. And you are claiming that to be a stinging slap on my face!! I would leave you with your wet dreams about MAJ.

Manto,

(the success of 130 million Muslims in India in mobilising as a great electoral force would mean that not only Muslims managed to get their sovereign states... but continue to exercise a strong veto in areas that were left behind in India... Then ought not the Hindus try and improve the lot of their country ... which is not the most perfect in the world... and leave Pakistan to us? )

You’re right but only partially. The Muslims wield far more influence in India than Pakistan- they were able to prevent GWB from addressing India from either the Parliament or the Red Fort- in the Muslims’ own promised land the Big Poodle bombs his own territory and allows USA to do the same. I second your thought that Hindus (and IMs) ought to think about improving their own country. Reuniting Pakistan and Bdesh would be committing suicide.

HP sahib

(Jinnah was far smarter than Gandhi. Gandhi had India on a platter, Jinnah climbed a mountain to get a slice of India from Gandhi and the Congress, and after getting the slice, when he looked back he was the only one on the mountain… There were no strings for other to follow him. )

It was very smart of MAJ (pbuh) no doubt but not very fortunate for Pakistan. Once he was gone there was no collective leadership or institution to guide Pakistan.

Re:Manto#115

[.... because going by that the success of 130 million Muslims in India in mobilising as a great electoral force would mean that not only Muslims managed to get their sovereign states... but continue to exercise a strong veto in areas that were left behind in India...]

I would say that it is actually Nehru`s lust for Kashmir that saved the millions of muslims in India. By 1947-48, the communal atmosphere was so poisoned, I dont think any hindu (besides Gandhi) wanted a single muslim to stay back in India. Punjab had been completely cleansed. Bengal had been cleansed to quite an extent. The violence had started to spread to Delhi and UP as well. Just as Pakistan cleansed hindus/sikhs, India would have cleansed all muslims.

The Congress did nothing in Punjab and Gandhi made a few noises in Calcutta and Noakhali. However, the Congress did stop the violence from spreading to the same extent in Delhi and UP. That timing is very, very suspicious since it coincides with India`s getting Kashmir from the Maharaja. It would have been impossible for Nehru and India to hold on to muslim majority Kashmir if muslims from everywhere else were being forced to leave for Pakistan. How could Nehru convince Sheikh Abdullah to throw his weight behind India? How could India convince the international community? So the communal violence had to end and millions of muslims managed to stay behind. Of course, it fit in with the secular ideology but I doubt there were any genuine secular feelings in 1947.

[...Then ought not the Hindus try and improve the lot of their country ... which is not the most perfect in the world... and leave Pakistan to us?...]

Indeed!! That is exactly what hindus are doing with their focus on economy. I dont see India interfering in Pakistan all that much.

In fact, I posit that India has a much more balanced and unemotional view of the communal equation in the subcontinent than Pakistan does. India knows it is not possible for hindus and muslims to live like brothers. The maximum is lukewarm friendship. So it is futile to think of conquering Pakistan since its citizens can never be absorbed. In fact, India has never made any serious military attempt at undoing partition, irrespective of all the romantic notions in Pakistani minds that Indians are coming in tanks. The maximum attempt has been to weaken Pakistan just enough so that it can never be a serious rival as in 1971. This realization of ground reality has freed India to pursue non-Pakistan centric interests which has paid rich dividends.

Pakistanis on the other hand are too emotional about the communal equation. Its entire foreign policy and even domestic policy is driven by paranoia of Indian invasion. It has suffered decades of military rule due to this paranoia. Its aggressive postures is to do jehad in India to harm hindus. We have all seen the price Pakistan has paid for this situation.

Re: # 104

``History does not offer Pakistan any meaningful guide on how to solve our problems, because we have to deal with the very real and serious limitation of our present situation and we have to find an answer to our problems from within the constraints of our limited choices. ``

It is not good enough to say that Jinnah wanted this and Jinnah wanted that............Pakistani citizens have enough brains to pursue their own good and learn from the painful history of the humanity...........Pakistanis need to decide whether they want their nation to be a modern democracy or not and then work for it...............reform the constitution to a secular nationhood and insist on free and fair elections ............

HP 106-

Thanks for that stinging slap on friend mian`s face. The problem with our ``friend`` and his shutar-be-``mohar`` is that they think they can get away with firing away from other people`s shoulders.

PS to Ranjit,

I`d add that you`ve left out the Junagadh issue. Hyderabad if you recall was taken later on 13th September 1948... Also I don`t think your compatriots understand the full implications of what you are suggestng... because going by that the success of 130 million Muslims in India in mobilising as a great electoral force would mean that not only Muslims managed to get their sovereign states... but continue to exercise a strong veto in areas that were left behind in India... This is just another way of looking at it. In any event don`t you think it is only fair then that the historical recombination- the Congress Masterstroke as you put it- was a justified solution for it gave all parties what they wanted? Then ought not the Hindus try and improve the lot of their country ... which is not the most perfect in the world... and leave Pakistan to us?

Raw mian,

Hazaron khawishin aisi... or what was that? bahut niklay ``teray`` arman phir bhee kam niklay? If Pakistan was a state held together by the army it would have disintegrated much earlier. It is not in anyone`s interest to see Pakistan disintegrate, nor does a common Pakistani, even in Balochistan, want this disintegration. Baqi rahe gay tum- so the world is full of dreamers. Dream on. But first I`d say you put a thousand miles between every province and then put a hostile country in the middle and maybe you`ll have a chance.


Dear Ferozk,

``In many ways, Jinnah`s speech of August 11, 1947 was an evocation of a dream but we never created the right tools to build that dream into a reality. I am not denying the importance of that speech, but I am stating that it has no bearing on our future. Speeches motivate the people and it is the people, who them craft a future on the basis of those speeches but a people who do not believe in a future will not be motivated by any speech; no matter how inspiring. ``

I don`t see it this way. If indeed we are to accept that speech as an evocation of a dream (which is not necessary- we may not if we wish) The Constitution of the United States of America as passed in 1789 provided for a democratic republic for all people. Yet ... we saw that many of those glorious ideals remained unrealised for many decades ... and even after the emancipation proclamation, we saw cases like Plessey Vs Ferguson. My point is that dreams are not realised right away. Furthermore beyond the constitutional discrimination which is what I am concerned with, there is nothing uniquely wrong with Pakistanis as a people and a nation... there is a future, and beyond our ``class`` there are hardly any doomsday soothsayers.


Ranjit #112,

That is a thoughtprovoking analysis... and events of 1946-1947 show that indeed partition was pushed on Jinnah and not the other way around. I don`t think it was a matter of stupidity but rather it was a matter of cards that were dealt to him. He played or rather overplayed them very well till 1946... but 1946-1947 was a clear triumph for the Congress.


Friend, Mohar11,

Gentlemen, I am not inclined to get into a dead end discussion with you which we have indulged in for many years. Both of you have tried really hard for many years now and your persistence must be applauded despite your failure... Nonetheless I shall make two points...

1- I merely quoted a point of view as expressed by Hodson who knew personally all the major actors of the partition drama - it does not follow that I agree with it... My own views are closer to HP`s - except that I feel when push came to shove, Jinnah did outline an economic and political policy... and I mentioned those policies in my #81.

2- Jinnah had announced his retirement from politics in June 1947. He was forced to come back when Nawab of Bhopal was unavailable and fear was that Mountbatten would push his own governor generaliship...

Just watched Tom Brokaw`s documentary on Pakiland..The taliban are using Pakiland for strategic depth..

Indians are enjoying their schadenfreude moment as the army of the bastion of Islam dukes it out with those of it`s citizens who chose to practise it`s most austere form..the video of the taliban beheading people in Pakiland was reminiscent of the RAWA videos from Afghanistan..

What jinnah wanted for Pakiland is irrelevant..Pakis like manto should worry more about what Mullah Omar and the other islamic jihadis wants for Pakiland..their vision of Pakiland is closer to reality than jinnah`s vision..

Re:HP #92

[...Jinnah was far smarter than Gandhi. Gandhi had India on a platter, Jinnah climbed a mountain to get a slice of India from Gandhi and the Congress, and after getting the slice, when he looked back he was the only one on the mountain… There were no strings for other to follow him....]

You are grossly overestimating Jinnah`s capabilities. The fact is that hindus never really wanted to offer concessions and share power equitably with muslims. Why is that? Hindus knew that they were badly divided along caste/region/language basis and were temporarily united under the Congress umbrella. If there was any real power sharing with muslims, who were far more homogenous, muslims would take advantage of these divisions, play divide and conquer games and take over Delhi, just like the Brits did. Also, there were real chances of a civil war as well, which could lead to muslim military victory over entire India, especially if aided by Islamic countries to the west.

Just think about it. If hindus did not want partition, would it ever have occured? Congress would have rejected all plans and let the status quo continue. In fact, pragmatic hindus like Sardar Patel had agreed to partition a long time back. The question was what price would hindus have to pay to get the India of their dreams? That is where Jinnah came in.

Jinnah`s first mistake was to settle for the muslim majority provinces which meant the northwest and Bengal. That immediately freed up the rest of India to hindus including Delhi, the entire Gangetic plains and South India. Jinnah`s second mistake was to agree to a partition of Punjab and Bengal. This was a master stroke of genius from Congress. With 50% Punjab and 50% Bengal in its pockets, Congress reduced Pakistan to a moth-eaten state, as Jinnah himself realized. Jinnah`s third mistake was to try and get Hyderabad into Pakistan, even though there were no contigous borders. Congress was willing to give Kashmir in exchange for Hyderabad. Jinnah balked and India simply sent its army to take over Hyderabad. In the meanwhile it managed to get Kashmir too. It was way, way more than hindus could ever imagine but it happened due to Jinnah`s stupidity.

Basically it is Jinnah`s stupidity that now there is so much asymmetry between hindus and muslims in the subcontinet. You can contrast that to the ruling class status that muslims had throughout South Asia prior to the British.

re: Ferozk:
``There is a very dire and pressing question because each and every Pakistani and that is:

Do we live in a common future for our nation or not? ``

---

No. There is no common future for Pakistan. Pakistan is a dead state that is being sustained artificially by Pakistan Army through their brtual force. Mujeeb ur Rehman`s path is the only way out. Every time Army train their guns on the people of pakistan, they should know that the template is already set and it is just a matter of time............

---

``Today Bangladesh is a sovereign and independent country. On Thursday night West Pakistani armed forces suddenly attacked the police barracks at Razarbagh and the EPR headquarters at Pilkhana in Dhaka. Many innocent and unarmed have been killed in Dhaka city and other places of Bangladesh. Violent clashes between EPR and Police on the one hand and the armed forces of Pakistan on the other, are going on. The Bengalis are fighting the enemy with great courage for an independent Bangladesh. May God aid us in our fight for freedom. Joy Bangla.``

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman
25 March 1971

Khamy
Stop being paranoid....He makes lot of sense.. Sometimes.