'Constitutionally' Different Neighbours

#44 by Salim_Chauhan on April 28, 2006 12:14pm PT

[quote]While not exactly state policy in India, religious intolerance is also not as benign as a mere ``aberration`` either. State-sponsored massacres of 2000 innocent people and rape, mutilation, and cremation of hundreds of little girls and pregnant women is not exactly an ``aberration.`` Please select a more horrible-sounding terms so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.[/quote]

Yep! they should have burnt 59 pilgrims in a train. That would have classified Hinduism as religion of peace and tolerance. Well it works for Islam though.

A Paki preaching on secularism is like a rapist giving talks on the virtues of celibacy.

Bottom line is that I don`t support vigilante justice system by any community be it Hindus, Muslims, Punjabis, Biharis, you name it. I want culprits on both sides to be punished. However, the bottom line is that you cannot clap with one hand. Muslims the world over especially in India more than make sure that they keep the pot boiling. In a region like the subcontinent where passions run high, Muslims also have a responsibility to make sure that they don`t make provocative speeches or indulge in provocative actions. If not then they will have to bear the consequences of their actions. Unlike the US or the UK or most of the Western world, India does not have the resources to have a good law and order machinery. A lot depends on the individual folks as well.

You, Rakesh Mani and other Islamic fundamentalism appeasers can explain to me as to why you all are silent on the Solapur riots of September 2002. Jerry Falwell, the American preacher called Muhammed a terrorist. The same Falwell who has called Hinduism a satanic cult. Muslims did not have the cojones to take on the powerful American Christian Right and hence decided to pick on the softer target, the Hindus of India.

Re: # 43
> ...... if there`s one thing that came out.. it`s that secularism is the way to go..

rakesh - on that thread ALL of the (so-called) hinud extremists said that secularism is
the only way forward ! What we are against, though, is the minority appeasement
that goes on in the name of secularism. THAT is unacceptable.

[shakes head] You missed that ! [/shakes head]

#42, rakeshmani {``And sir.. everytime Indians see Pakistani Hindus being viciously attacked and their girls being abducted and forcefully converted. Everytime we hear of temples being vandalised.. we too are glad that we, at least, live in a secular country. And while religious intolerance in India is more of an aberration.. it isn`t state policy as it is in Pakistan``}

Rakesh,
While not exactly state policy in India, religious intolerance is also not as benign as a mere ``aberration`` either. State-sponsored massacres of 2000 innocent people and rape, mutilation, and cremation of hundreds of little girls and pregnant women is not exactly an ``aberration.`` Please select a more horrible-sounding terms so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.

The stories about vandalism, abductions, rapes, and killings of non-Muslims in Pakistan are quite factual. Unfortunately, they are par for the course in Pakistan. Even Muslim minorities are subjected to rapes, killings, and having their places of worship blown up. The Tally Ban, Muslim ambassadors of good will and love from Pakistan, had even issued a fatwa proclaiming that rapes of Shia women were justifiable and killing of Shia men would merit paradise.

Your remark about Pakistan is right on target. It is one thing to sneak through and cover up a state-organized massacre, it is several times more hideous to ``legislate`` religious persecution and give it the legal and moral authority of the state.

Re: # 40

Wiseguyin,

Kya karen? Such attitudes never cease to shock and amaze me.
``Secularism being harmful to the Indic religions?``

After all those posts from the ``mythical article``.. if there`s one thing that came out.. it`s that secularism is the way to go.

Re: # 33

[Everytime Pakistanis see another state pogrom of Muslims, sikhs and Christians in India I think they reassure themselves that while Jinnah made mistakes they prefer freedom in Pakistan over slavery in India!]

And sir.. everytime Indians see Pakistani Hindus being viciously attacked and their girls being abducted and forcefully converted. Everytime we hear of temples being vandalised.. we too are glad that we, at least, live in a secular country. And while religious intolerance in India is more of an aberration.. it isn`t state policy as it is in Pakistan

Re: # 4

The Pakistani Army justifies its strength and derives its massive funding by citing the regional conflicts they are involved in/threatened by. The threat from India.. the Kashmir Question.. and now, the battle in Waziristan.

As long as Pakistan is ruled by the military and the ISI, why would they want peace with India? Or peace in Kashmir? Because their funding, powers and influence on the country will only be justified as long as there is some major conflict or threat?

There`s no way an Army regime will try to make peace with India over Kashmir.. it`s suicide.

Isn`t it time already to get rid off that mentality ``If Jinnah/Nehru was alive for a few more years..``.. For heaven`s (or hell`s) sake, 1947 was close to 60 years behind and these guys could either have been reborn (and died already) or rotting in everlasting hellfire or enjoying in everlasting paradise depending on whatever BS you believe in..

It`s time to move on.. If you want to blame Jinnah/Nehru for the problems now you might as well blame Chandragupta Maurya, Muhammad ghazni etc..etc.. :-))

Re: # 39
> Could you please provide your reasoning behind this statement? ....
Rakesh Ji,
If you did not get the answer to this from that `mythical` article, something tells me, you
are not going to get it from whatever answer Krishna gives you ....

Re: # 35

[We are bound to Psuedo Secular policies which are unhealthy to both Indic religions as well as the minorities]

Krishnaji,

Could you please provide your reasoning behind this statement?

Boy !!! There we go again. How many times have we heard ``If Jinnah had lived ....where as Nehru lived ...``?.
It did not matter. Most important thing is what masses of these two countries wanted. Anyway Jinnah had no chance, he would have been shot dead by an Indian Muslim some time after partition.

Re: # 3

[Muslims expected such a 1 Dimensional Brain of Jinnah to guide them thru the crucial years of 1940s ? Jinnah had a very clear idea as to HOW TO CARVE OUT PAKISTAN OUT OF INDIA. But practically no CLEAR IDEA AS TO HOW TO BUILD A NATION]

Yet, had Jinnah been alive and in power in Pakistan until the mid-60s, just as Nehru was in India, Pakistan would be a radically different place today. No leader in Pakistan has enjoyed the virtual carte-blanche that Jinnah had in Pakistan. He had the support of the masses; and the brains. He would`ve ``cast his die`` on Pakistan`s politics, just as Nehru did in India.

Perhaps most importantly, he could`ve seized the lands of the tribal and feudal lords and turned it over to the peasants. Such an act would have had great repercussions... for today, most of Pakistan`s assembly is dominated by these very feudal types.

As to whether he was really intelligent, or a man of the people. I don`t think it would`ve mattered, really. He definately had the chutzpah to establish the foundations of his country. Moreover, being the secularist and liberal that he was, he would`ve ensured proper treatment of Pakistan`s Hindu and Christian minorities and its women.

And Pakistan wouldn`t have been hijacked by a posse of corrupt feudals and raving mullahs more concerned with implementing Sharia Law and hounding their Ahmadis than building a prosperous and progressive country.

Re: # 33
> pogrom of Muslims, sikhs and Christians in India .....
Zakk, why don`t you do something about saving ur muslim bros ?
like inviting someof them to ur paradise ???? u just need to pay some amount towards
travel and citizenship/immigration costs ?
I promise, for every guy u save, I will pay towards inviting a non-muslim from ur country
to India. It dont matter if he/she is hindu/christian/sikh... whatever. As long as that
person is non-muslim.

kapish ?
that way ur land can become more pure and lesser kafirs means u guys can practice ur
prophets teaching in a better way. Heck- everybody knows that !!!!!

Savail,

Why so much academic jargon to drive home a point so obvious?

Nevertheless, I agree with your conclusions. Congress` domination and deep roots have definitely helped India in some ways, but look at flip side of it:

We are bound to Psuedo Secular policies which are unhealthy to both Indic religions as well as the minorities

We were shackled by Socialist economic policies for almost 50 years which nearly killed the development of our country

Thank god we are beginning to correct both these issues now.

All in all, many thanks to Gandhi and Nehru. But Time to discard them.

Rgds,

Mantolives:

2- As Prime Minister Chaudhry Muhammad Ali was never member of the Muslim League and was bureaucrat... but if you could produce the reference I can comment.. also Chaudhry sahab was not even a cabinet member in the period that Jogindranath Mandal was the Law Minister. If he said it ofcourse he was wrong..

What more reference do you need?. I gave you the title of the book. I can`t remember the page number and paragraph number..

The emergence of Pakistan.
by Ali, Chaudhri Muhammad.
New York, Columbia University Press, 1967.
Description:
ix, 418 p. maps. 24 cm.

Definitely Jogindernath Mandal migrated back to India and that too within a few years of believing in the ``great salesman`s dream``.. you can`t deny it.

Your arguments are `tragicomical`.

Everytime Pakistanis see another state pogrom of Muslims, sikhs and Christians in India I think they reassure themselves that while Jinnah made mistakes they prefer freedom in Pakistan over slavery in India!

Blaming the Army for everything in Pakistan is unfair post 1950 it was the civil service which dominated politics...it was the Ghulam Muhammads and Iskandier Mirzas all fine products of the ICS which messed up Pakistan and not the Army..

#30

Mohar mian,

Oh so now I am a sunni? Is that all you can do? Think up what new faith I converted to this week?