'Constitutionally' Different Neighbours

Feroz

When I said ``friends`` I had one in particular.

Ofcourse I agree that many of them bear us no ill will as I don`t bear them any ill will.

Funny thing about quip.

re: Mantolives

Thanks for the reply and as to our ``friends`` from across the fense, do not mind them. They are not as bad as most think. Afterall, they are the only ones defending Pakistan on my interact board, when all the Pakistanis have fled from the good fight!

Listen to what our friends are saying and not to the tenor of their voices; pay attention to their words and not how they are saying them and you will realize that all they want is for us to get our act together and stop making a nusiance of ourselves.

I agree, with your idea on the evolutionary process for the 1973 document.

I hope that lawyer in you appreciates this morsel of mirth. A few days ago, a student of mine who is taking a class, came up to me with a question. The student wanted to know what was the name of the law in Pakistan, which punished a woman for the act of rape and wanted to know the law`s proper and legal name. The student was confused and wanted to know whether that particular law was called the Hudood Ordinances or the Jinnah Ordinances!?!?

Ciao

Dear Majumdar,

I agree with that restatement. It is about evolution of society... I just hope it is evolution and not degeneration.

Manto mian

(especially that the reason Jinnah`s vision never materialised was because of the grand communication gap between the leader and the followers and his inability to bridge it... )

I think the failure was more to do with social factors than just a communication gap.

Was MAJ `s (pbuh) vision of a secular country really acceptable to Pakistanis then or even now?

Was Jinnah`s vision of a democratic society really realisable in the West Pak society (unlike EPak/Bdesh) which was dominated by tribal-feudal elements where the middle class-intellegentsia was just too small in number at least in 1947. ML came to be hijacked by the worst kind of feudals like Mamdot, Kalabagh etc. within years of MAJ`s and LAK`s death and in hands of elements like this democracy would purely be a matter of form rather than spirit.

Plainly was MAJ ahead of his time/out of place in Pak society.

Would like to have your thoughts on this.

Regards

Dear Ferozk

What you have said is elementary and commonsense-

I have no disagreements with what you have written... the reason I was forced to comment on your post in the first place- despite knowing your views on these subjects - was because your initial post lent itself to a gleeful misinterpretation by our friends from across the border.

You, HP and I are on the same page on the issues enumerated - especially that the reason Jinnah`s vision never materialised was because of the grand communication gap between the leader and the followers and his inability to bridge it... As far as 1973`s consititution is concerned... I completely agree - except I would add that Objectives Resolution in its edited form became the ``substantive part`` under 2A which was undemocratic.

Sorry for the late reply- I am swamped with work.

#132, naren {``That said, incidents like Gujarat are aberration at least in South India. ...As if, they are waiting to see what kind vocabulary you use to decide whether ``aberrate or not.`` I propose these hindutva types and bin laden followers be thrown in an island and let them decide among themselves. If we do that India will be a better place. ...
On an another note, judging by the content you posted on chowk, I believe You are a decent person unlike your hero Aurangzeb. ``}

Naren Bhai,
I agree with you comment. It is very heartening to note that South India negates Gujarat so well. May the rest of the subcontinent become like that. May I propose the British Isle for this island where the bin ladens and the hindutvas can have their kumbaya come to jesus hugfest? :)

Maharaja Aurangjeb is not my hero - I just defended the Rajput emperor`s right to be called an Indian.

Re:bharath#130

[...Same ole same ole ``strategy``.......... ]

Lets stop blaming Pakistan for every massacare of hindus in Kashmir. The real culprits are the Kashmiri muslims - yes the ba$tards living in the Kashmir valley. We Indians are deluded into thinking that Kashmiri muslims are ok, rahter it is the big, bad Pakistanis who are fomenting terrorism. As a result, we keep giving a pass to the people who have really been waging a war against India - the Kashmiri muslims.

It was the Kashmiri muslims who started the fight in 1989 and have kept it alive. The LOC is all fenced up with hardly any cross-border movement, still the bombings and violence continues. Separatist leaders like Syed Ali Shah Geelani and Mirwaiz Umer openly preach sedition. It is time to recognize that we have a major problem with these people and it wont go away by negotiations.

What we need is a KPS Gill type character who will go and give the royal danda to Kashmiri muslims. Forget about autonomy and other BS. We need summary executions and encounters of any young man who looks sideways. That will end this nonsense once and for all.

---

while not exactly state policy in India, religious intolerance is also not as benign as a mere ``aberration`` either. State-sponsored massacres of 2000 innocent people and rape, mutilation, and cremation of hundreds of little girls and pregnant women is not exactly an ``aberration.`` Please select a more horrible-sounding terms so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.``

Hi Salim,
I grew up in south India ( Andhra Predesh). I lived in India for 21 years. I left India in 1993. While I noticed castiesm among hindus in certain parts of my state, I did nt notice discrimination against Muslims. we had few muslim students in class. Even though, they were a minority they were harassed because of their religion. But again, all my experiences are based on my schooling. I agree Gujarat massacres are horrible. I saw picture of a muslim man pleading for his life in Time magazine. It`s heart breaking. I am sure every one of the victims, who got killed by hindu mobs, is innocent and has nothing to do with train burning incident. That said, incidents like Gujarat are aberration at least in South India. The only communal relateed incident I experienced was my town was placed under curphew for three days as a precautionary measure during Babri incident.

---

Please select a more horrible-sounding terms so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.``


As if, they are waiting to see what kind vocabulary you use to decide whether ``aberrate or not.`` I propose these hindutva types and bin laden followers be thrown in an island and let them decide among themselves. If we do that India will be a better place.

On an another note, judging by the content you posted on chowk, I believe You are a decent person unlike your hero Aurangzeb.

Naren

Re: # 132
> I saw picture of a muslim man pleading for his life in Time magazine. ..
don`t worry - if ppl like u had ur way it will be hindus in india, australians in australia,
christians in france, sweden etc pleading for their lives.
At least that muslim was let off by the mob - in a role reversal, we humans will be wiped off by this species.

I can think up of a name for you in such a scenario - how does Nasir sound to you ? Like it ?

:)

Jai shri Ram

HP sahib,

MAJ (pbuh) knew that he was dying when Pakistan was born. Maybe he should have done more to create set foundations of institutions or build a collective leadership.

But I do accept that MAJ was faced with a herculean task. Creating a nation is hard enough, building it is an even formidable task even for a healthy man with long years ahead of him let one a sick man who didn`t have much time.

Regards

Same ole same ole ``strategy``..........



..........................................





it doesnt matter this ``strategy`` has taken u to the s^it ole wher u are in.............................




http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 05 02 story_2-5-2006_pg1_1

34 Hindus killed in Kashmir




:-) * PAKSHITAN CONDEMNS ‘ACT OF OF TERRORISM’ :-)





* Hurriyat chairman calls for killers to be arrested

By Iftikhar Gilani




NEW DELHI: Unidentified gunmen shot dead 22 Hindus, including a nine-year old girl, in two villages of Doda district in Jammu and Kashmir late Sunday night. In a separate incident, 12 Hindus kidnapped on Sunday were found dead.




The gunmen killed the Hindus after dragging them out of their houses. The injured included a women and her daughter.............................................
...................

#127

It is okay to be an idiot but why advertise it day after day? We have known it and have known it for a long time now....With this idiot on hand, who would believe that hindus are hoshiar? What a disgrace to his own people.

Is there anything different that you can write moharsadass?

manto:
pak. army would rather take things to a meltdown than to give up power (like 1971) and this time they have nukes... that meltdown point might not come tomorrow maybe not for ten years but unless the BIG MELT comes - talking romantically like ferozek did about future of pakistan is futile. That was my point. you are welcome to indulge in urdu shairi cliches.

HP the first picture is not from kashmir, its the indian airlines bringing back body of telecom engineer ``qatled`` (in a proper priscription beheading) by the taliban. This and the kasmiri killings make pakistani position in international and bi-lateral arena weaker. e.g. this calls for a couple of divisions for special forces in helmand, bigegr base in tajikistan, and GHQ can only squirm...considering they cannot seem to ``control`` the jihadis in kashmir.

and winter is not important..no snow in dilli or bangalore..or Doda for that matter? we have many festivals up-coming..ganesh, diwali, shivaratri and so on.

#119 by majumdar
“It was very smart of MAJ (pbuh) no doubt but not very fortunate for Pakistan. Once he was gone there was no collective leadership or institution to guide Pakistan.”

Dada,
I am surprised to read this from a seasoned person like you…

Institutions are not built in one day, one week, one month or six months or even in six years.

ranjit # 112 and # 118,

As avkrishna said your thesis is just “Very interesting perspective”.

Indian history does not support it…But Hindus are berry smart and intelligent people. No one knows what they have up their sleeves churri or Ram Ram :)

Simple fact is that if Hindus have accepted Pakistan, they would not have been flocking this site in droves. It is not only this site, even on Indian sites they obsess over Pakistan. Not a healthy thing for people who helped create Pakistan…

Good luck with your thesis…wont fly very far in History classes….

123 Jang,

It is the begining of the summer in Kashmir...It is also fun time there...
Enjoy while it lasts...

Re: # 124
[...Simple fact is that if Hindus have accepted Pakistan, they would not have been flocking this site in droves....]

60 years down the drain - pakis are still quaking in their boots ... ``hinuds have not accepted us pakis... boo hoo.... big bad hinuds are still flocking to chowk.... boo hoo...``

Anything hinuds do is twisted to ``prove`` that they have not accepted pakiland - even the simple act of participating in chowk - a site that`s be definition designed for India and pakistan - is fact enough to prove the theory - even though each and every hinud here has expressely stated that they have no intention of conquering pakiland....

So sad....