'Constitutionally' Different Neighbours

#82 by Mantolives

“My disagreement with ferozk and HP is in so much as that they feel that Jinnah had no clear programme on how to run Pakistan...”
“Let me tackle the question of setting up a political system. I think the outlines we already know... but as far as a political system (I assume a constitution)”

A political party’s plan, program etc are presented in the form of an election manifesto, resolutions in general body meetings, general declarations and the key statements by the primary leaders.

I will start off with the message that Congress delivered. Congress was clear in what political system independent India would have since the 20s (parliamentary with Prime minister). It made sure that people knew that it leaned on socialist economic system and it positively declared as to what kind of rights the provinces would have and the Union would be secular. It also ensured that linguistic and historical boundaries of the Provinces would be preserved. They had that all out of the way before 1928. In fact, before the 1946 elections, they went back to their 1928 resolutions to assure the Sikhs in Punjab of their linguistic rights.

After the 1940 resolution and in fact, within two years after that, the ML was the recognized Muslim representative in India. The British and the Congress knew that independence of India would have to be a negotiated settlement between the Brits, the congress, and the ML.

Please refer to my previous post here too. The ML and Jinnah were aware of where they were headed but from 1942 to 1946 they never really defined what they planned to do after their objectives were met. After the failure of the CMP and the elections, Pakistan became an achievable dream and in 1946 Pakistan was actually announced. But the ML was completely mum on what Pakistan would stand for. Jinnah’s speech of August 11 about secularism was a little too late and a mega dollar short.

The ML during the early 1947 failed to create an outline of proposed Pakistani constitution and in fact it was not even sure of what Pakistan political system would be. Jinnah was scrambling in the last minutes to decide whether he would be the governor General or the Prime Minister.

My theory is that the ML was being pulled in so many different directions before the partition that they feared that some decisions might backfire and some Muslim groups might declare their opposition to Pakistan especially, in Sindh and NWFP where opposition to Pakistan was significant.

After Jinnah became the Governor General, he also lost the control over the constituent assembly and the rest is history.

Jinnah was far smarter than Gandhi. Gandhi had India on a platter, Jinnah climbed a mountain to get a slice of India from Gandhi and the Congress, and after getting the slice, when he looked back he was the only one on the mountain… There were no strings for other to follow him.

That is what I meant when I said,” The truth is that Jinnah had no program for Pakistan. He never outlined any economic or social policy for the country nor did he work to set up a political system.” In my post #58

Re:ferozk #72

The creation of Pakistan will go down in Islamic history as one of the biggest setbacks to Islam comparable to the defeat of Islam in Cordoba, Spain. No wonder the mullahs opposed it tooth and nail. Effectively, Jinnah withdrew muslims to two corners of the subcontinent that they once had ruled and handed over the rest in a religiously clensed manner to hindus. It was a perfect solution for hindus and a complete mistake for muslims, who gave up all hope to be the masters of South Asia.

I can guarantee that if Jinnah came back alive today and saw the state of Pakistan and India, he would immediately reverse his demands.

Hindus to their credit have got their act together and made the most of this strategic error by muslims. We have managed to keep the country together, jump start the economic growth and implmented secular democracy. These steps have ensured that India is headed to greatness. Mulsims failed in all three. They could not keep Pakistan together, ruined their economy and moved 180 degrees away from secular democracy. As a result, Pakistan has now fallen behid India by a big margin.

Re: # 91 Ranjit
>>>>>>>>The creation of Pakistan will go down in Islamic history as one of the biggest setbacks to Islam comparable to the defeat of Islam in Cordoba, Spain. No wonder the mullahs opposed it tooth and nail. Effectively, Jinnah withdrew muslims to two corners of the subcontinent that they once had ruled and handed over the rest in a religiously clensed manner to hindus. It was a perfect solution for hindus and a complete mistake for muslims, who gave up all hope to be the masters of South Asia. <<<<<<<<

RIGHT ON TARGET!

Terrorism, nuclear intimidation, ``Gujarat riots prove that Pakistan was not a mistake``, etc are consolations to hide this painful reality from consciousness. ..............



That`s all fine if only they could pull together and focus on economic development and stop shooting professors in Bangalore, planting bombs in temples, etc.........

#82 by Mantolives

“My conclusion that as he had never expected Pakistan to come into existence…”

Jinnah had started out his second stint in politics with some assurance and some ideas as to what he was going to do. He did not come back to politics to play blind. He knew exactly what he wanted.

It seems to me that he did lots of work in UP and other Muslim provinces but the elections in 1937-8 made him realize that the Muslim electoral power was in Muslim Majority provinces and not in the central India. There was a definite shift in the Muslim politics after the 37-38 elections. That shift in thinking resulted in 1940 resolution.

I would not credit him solely with the shift in Policy. The intellectual brain of the ML besides Jinnah consists of the following core people and some others who were in and out based on the situation.

The people who helped him develop the message were: Khaliq uzzaman, Raja Sahib Mehmoodabad, Perhaps nawab of Bhopal but the most important people were: The Isphanis from Bengal, The habibs from Bombay and the Haroons from Sindh. In Punjab, Sir Zafarullah khan and Chaudry Mohammed Ali and later Khizer Hayat were the core leaders. They were the intellectual leaders of the ML.

So Jinnah and his core people knew exactly what they wanted when they went to Lahore in 1940. If you understand political symbolism, then the 1940 resolution drafted by a Punjabi and presented by a Bengali-two from the majority Muslim provinces- were some strong symbols of the direction Jinnah and the ML had planned.

There were some possible results of 1940 resolution and they were:

1) The ML would get representation % in the central government based on Muslim population
2) The ML could possibly get provincial autonomy for the Muslim Majority provinces and guaranteed Muslim representation % in the minority provinces.
3) The ML would get something like that appeared in CMP
4) The ML would get an independent country for the Muslims.

There were numerous other possibilities and I am sure those possibilities were explored and discussed by the ML leadership.

I think Pakistan was the last possibility but no one had ruled it out.

If Jinnah was not aware of these options, he would not have gone into the CMP negotiations. He went there fully prepared, - I know you have read those papers- he was ready to respond to any question from the Congress and the British.

One more post to go…

#82 by Mantolives

“My conclusion that as he had never expected Pakistan to come into existence…”

I think this is not based on historical facts and the type of person Jinnah was.
I will comeback to this later.

“This is at best a speculation. I am sure on the contrary that over throwing Jinnah by a military coup would have been impossible.”

He died in 1949 so it is speculation. However, when we look at what happened to Liaquat ali Khan in 1951, we know that there were forces in Pakistan, who wanted to change the UP stronghold from the state. LAK’s murder was a coup. Everything suggests that the Bureaucracy, Feudal, and the army were in it together. Now I am not going go to in the details but if you analyze the LAK murder, you will reach the same conclusion.

Mantolives #82
``In so much as India was to be the embodiment of ancient wisdom and culture (and therefore logically Hindu civilisation) coming into contact with modernity and technology, Pakistan was - as H V Hodson put it in the epilogue of the 1997 edition of his book ``The Great Divide`` - to be a modernised and democratised version of the Mughal Empire inclusive for all and progressive...``

Pray please expound this vision of ``modernised and democratised version of Mughal Empire``. Please quote and allow us to share wisdom of words uttered by MAJ on that subject. Please enlighten us more on what this version of Mughal empire was supposed to be?


Jest aside, any sensible manager always prepares someone to be his backup and a backup for the backup. If vision of empire was what MAJ had, was his sole goal to be an emperor? Could this goal of becoming a true Mughal emperor have caused his not letting anyone else being allowed to become a successor? Afterall it was standard Mughal policy to eliminate all successors. Could this vision have led to Pakistan always facing vacuum whenever top place beomces available?

It is strange for you to state that Jinnah did not expect Pakistan to created and therefore his politics was more tactical than strategic``. In my workplace I evaluate short and long term impact of any initiative that changes structure of my team or organization. Changing structure of a nation is much bigger task. Are you stating that MAJ didn`t think of impact of his actions and would have created a strategic vision later? I would respectfully submit that MAJ`s temprament was at best that of a lwayer, to win immediate court case and than allow his client to deal with success. Failure of MAJ in this case was to deal with aftermath of his win. He should have allowed others to handle it.

#68 masanamuthu

Without agreeing with you on the exact details (after all I am a hindu :-), we are on the same page here. This attempt to manufacture a semitic-style BIG GUY (jesus, mohammed, moses) whatever is a real waste of time. It goes against the basic flow of hindu tradition.

Regarding Ramayana being a story of north-south interaction/conquest; hmmm, I am skeptical. Arya, as you probably well know, is a generic term meaning well-born, noble, well spoken etc. It is heavily used by the Buddha, for example. I dont believe it translates into UP-wallah or Punjabi.

The Ramayana does seem to be a story of the encounter between a monarchical society and many tribal societies. Where did this take place? It could well be in UP/MP itself; to this day Madhya Pradesh is a tribal-dominated society.

South india, especially the tamils, had a strong culture that had moved beyond tribalism quite early. So it would be very strange if a north indian king would view their culture as tribalism. It would be viewed more like king vs. king (maybe Ravana fits?). Anyway, this is a good topic to explore...

Stuka #65

A small clarification - where you use the word ``Pakistan Movement``- I would say Muslim League`s politics ...

The feudals and others in these areas of Punjab and Sindh etc were fiercely particularist ... and were therefore naturally hostile to any Pan-Indian movement be it Congress or the Muslim League... (recall that most of the Muslim feudals from Punjab felt betrayed by the Lucknow Pact 1916 which stripped them off a communal majority in Punjab and yet Lucknow Pact was Jinnah`s greatest achievement)... To sum it up... the Lahore Resolution was an attempt on part of Jinnah and the Muslim Salariat from Central and South Indian provinces to provide a general demand to bring under one banner the particularist demands of Punjabi, Sindhi and other Muslims...

Mohar11...

``YLH... nuts``

Looks like you`ve gotten your balls (assuming you had any) gotten cut off so many times on this website - to assume the worst.


Ferozk, HP, Stuka...

Thankyou for those points of view.

On the issue of whether Pakistan was to be a privileged Island of preserved Mughal absolutism- I disagree only with the vocabulary. In so much as India was to be the embodiment of ancient wisdom and culture (and therefore logically Hindu civilisation) coming into contact with modernity and technology, Pakistan was - as H V Hodson put it in the epilogue of the 1997 edition of his book ``The Great Divide`` - to be a modernised and democratised version of the Mughal Empire inclusive for all and progressive... this is the vision he ascribed to Jinnah and this is the vision the failure to realise which he said was the failure of Pakistan so far.

On other issues I disagree with Ferozk and HP... and agree in part with stuka. My disagreement with ferozk and HP is in so much as that they feel that Jinnah had no clear programme on how to run Pakistan... The three last volumes of Jinnah Papers give enough evidence to the contrary. It is true however that Jinnah did not expect Pakistan to created and therefore his politics was more tactical than strategic. It was not until early July that he first decided to be part of the Pakistan government ... in June- after partition was allowed- he had announced his retirement and planned on residing in Bombay


HP writes:

``I would just add that Jinnah would have been overthrown via a military coup in 1950. Others were smart enough to keep the army at bay until 1958``

This is at best a speculation. I am sure on the contrary that over throwing Jinnah by a military coup would have been impossible. Infact it would have been great if the army had tried during his life time... then we would have a different precedent. I also don`t understand why others were smart enough to keep the army at bay ... knowing that HP is a very perceptive interactor who has deep insight into Pakistani politics, I will sure keep tuned into see how this was possible.

``The truth is that Jinnah had no program for Pakistan. He never outlined any economic or social policy for the country nor did he work to set up a political system. ``

I respectfully disagree. Let me tackle the question of setting up a political system. I think the outlines we already know... but as far as a political system (I assume a constitution) is concerned- if Jahanara Shahnawaz is to be believed the government of Pakistan is in possession of a constitution modelled on fourth French Republic pre-1939 model which has so far not been declassified ...

As for a economic policy is concerned... Jinnah unveiled the commercial policy of Pakistan in April 1948 - a policy that was followed more or less till the 1960s... On 27 April 1948 he gave a rather long address to Karachi Chamber of Commerce - in which he outlined basically what he felt were the cornerstones of Pakistan`s commercial policy...

Since the speech itself is too long to quote in full ... I am giving the references and the points he makes in this speech 27th April 1948

1- After the usual pleasantries - he started off by speaking of Pakistan`s cotton policy. Placing the utmost importance on textiles and cotton ... he said it was important to recognise that a strong emphasis on Cotton and Textiles was required as this was Pakistan`s pride. (That 60 years later the Textile sector remains vibrant and strong and a major buck earner for Pakistan tells us a different story)

2- He declared about ``International trade`` that ``Regulation and restriction with their attendant administrative evils will be imposed only where conditions compell`` and that ``I can assure on the behalf of the government of Pakistan that it is their intention and policy to let the channels of free trading flow as freely as possible``. He went on to say that all internal controls on essential commodities were to be removed as soon as possible... that an Open General Licence was being issued to completely undo any licencing issues that may add to red tape...

3- He then went into the reforms being made to allow Banking sector to flourish in Pakistan for easy availability of capital for free enterprise. It must be recalled that Habib Bank and other such big banks were brought in because of his personal initiative...

4- He then announced that the Pakistan government only planned on reserving for itself these sectors at the moment:

a-Arms and Munitions
b- Hydel Power
c- Railway Wagons
d- Communications

Everything else was to be deregulated and developed by the private sector.

5- He spoke of the creation of Industrial Finance Commission and the Pakistan National Savings certificates.

6- He then spoke of shipping and ports... (it must be remembered that in June 1947 ..Ardeshir Cowasjee`s father was already tasked with the task of the propagation of private shipping in Pakistan by Jinnah... the target was to have a 100 Pakistani ships on the way by the time Pakistan was created) .. and the development of Karachi as the great South Asian hub of trade (which it remained till Zia took over) ... In order to achieve this he initiated the remodelling of East Wharf and created Commercial Dry Docks ... this eventually led to the expansion of Karachi from the sleepy town that it was in 1947 to the global cosmpolitan trade hub that it became... and would`ve been had Zia not destroyed it..

7- Then he moved onto trade with India. He hoped a normalisation of relations and saw India as Pakistan`s foremost trading partner.

8- He then spoke of Civil Aviation .. and rightly pointed out that Karachi had the best equipped airport in the East. He outlined his vision for Karachi as the the main centre of International Air traffic... At this point he criticised his own government for not having done enough to win over TransWorld International to switch over to Karachi from Bombay`s Santa Cruz airport. He also repeated the Air Transport Policy unveiled 3 months earlier by the government of Pakistan and informed his listeners the initiation of two airlines: Orient was one of them... Later these two airlines merged to make the PIA in the 1950s. PIA still remains one of the few national companies with its credibility intact.

9- He then spoke of the railway policy and how Pakistan should proceed on that. He recalled how Pakistan`s railways had been hurt by mass migration of people to India.. but he hoped that they`d be able to pick it up soon...

10- ``Commerce- gentlemen- is more international than culture ... I have no doubt the Commerce of Pakistan would be an effective instrument in the establishment and maintenance of High standards business integrity and practice. If Pakistani goods are to establish themselves a reputation all their own, a beginning must be made right here and right now. I would like Pakistan to become a synonym and hallmark for standard and quality in the market places of the world.``


As for the suggestion that Jinnah wanted the British traditions to continue. I think evidence suggests that he wanted Pakistan to make and implement a constitution as soon as possible and become a Republic... ofcourse this would mean that British traditions would have to be harnessed and adapted .. I do think however that at some point he became very disappointed by those entrusted to make our constitution… for their inability to come to a consensus on basic principles..

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that he ruled without opposition for 6 months… Right from 1947 to mid 1950 Indian National Congress’ Pakistan faction operated as the opposition… but in reality they worked in close collaboration with Jinnah as they found themselves to be in agreement with his ideas on Pakistan. Infact it was the existence of “Pakistan” National Congress as an adjunct of the Indian National Congress that many Muslim League leaders strongly objected to the bifurcation of the AIML into two factions PML and IUML. Jinnah governed Pakistan for 13 months… by the time December 1947 … I am sure you know that a vibrant opposition (both from Khudai Khidmatgars etc and the religious right had developed)…


My conclusion that as he had never expected Pakistan to come into existence… Jinnah was a reluctant governor general to begin with. He filled in because he was afraid that Mountbatten would be unfair to Pakistan and because Nawab of Bhopal – the original AIML nominee- was not going to be available for GGship till 1948 if at all … (Later - the Bhopal’s ruler wanted his daughter Abida to take over and then accede to India while he could move to Pakistan and become the governor general.. but Abida Sultan escaped and came to Pakistan inspired by Jinnah- PCB chairman Shehryar Khan is her son)… Still Jinnah did the job honestly and fairly … and that’s what matters to common Pakistani…

Re: # 82 YLH
[... to be a modernised and democratised version of the Mughal Empire inclusive for all and progressive...]

pakiland was supposed to be ``democratised version of mughal empire``?..... How come we never heard it before..... boy, every other day you pakis pull a new ideology out of your collective a$$es....

And I thought jinnah never wanted pakiland in the first place?.... so how was he going to create a ``democratic version of mughal empire``?....

Re: # 82 yLH

looks like ferozk did hit the sweet nerves :))... YLH is lashing out with impotent fury.....

The day the Pakistanis put that stupid clause in their Constitutions that -- only a Muslim will be the President of Pakistan -- the country was doomed for fratricide and military takeovers --

those who do not learn from the history of Christian Secularism -- are condemned to repeat it in their own country --

in this regard India`s love of Western intellectualism and knowledge of Western secular history -- not of Western sandwiches -- helped the Indians formulate a Constitution that was advanced, progressive, irreligious secular and cognizant of the mosaic of multiethnic multicultural diversity.....

Indian Constitution was way ahead of its Subcontinental Time -- more attuned to Greenwich time -- yet with deep roots in the subcontinental mixed soil......

freozk #72. {``The fact is that Pakistan was created for the Muslim salaried classes and Muslim intelligensia and these groups wanted the same traditions of the British Raj in Pakistan, but without the need to compete with and live under a Hindu majority rule. Where things went awry, was the power play of the feudals who completely disenfranchised the Indian Muslim emigres to Pakistan, specially in Sindh, and the result was this group, which had sought and created Pakistan to protect its own economic and political interests suddenly found itself at a loss. ...``}

Feroz,
There is a lot of validity in what you have said. Anytime people use religion or race as an excuse for their own selfish goals, you can pretty much predict disastrous results. The Zionists established Israel as a refuge for persecuted Jews, even bribing Romanian and Russian officials to let Jews emigrate to Israel. Because their efforts were sincere, for their constituents, Israel is pretty much a success. The Muslim League establised Pakistan, ostensibly as a ``homeland`` for Muslims of the subcontinent, and its government has ended up persecuting Muslims and even preventing some of them from being repatriated. That is one of the reasons why Pakistan is a dismal failure. If people can`t see the difference between the two, then they are either blind or pretending blindness.

freozk #72. {``The fact is that Pakistan was created for the Muslim salaried classes and Muslim intelligensia and these groups wanted the same traditions of the British Raj in Pakistan, but without the need to compete with and live under a Hindu majority rule. Where things went awry, was the power play of the feudals who completely disenfranchised the Indian Muslim emigres to Pakistan, specially in Sindh, and the result was this group, which had sought and created Pakistan to protect its own economic and political interests suddenly found itself at a loss. ...``}

Feroz,
There is a lot of validity in what you have said. Anytime people use religion or race as an excuse for their own selfish goals, you can pretty much predict disastrous results. The Zionists established Israel as a refuge for persecuted Jews, even bribing Romanian and Russian officials to let Jews emigrate to Israel. Because their efforts were sincere, for their constituents, Israel is pretty much a success. The Muslim League establised Pakistan, ostensibly as a ``homeland`` for Muslims of the subcontinent, and its government has ended up persecuting Muslims and even preventing some of them from being repatriated. That is one of the reasons why Pakistan is a dismal failure. If people can`t see the difference between the two, then they are either blind or pretending blindness.

I have no understanding of courts so my comments may be wrong.
The details of constitution are not very important as most written documents in modern times provide all basic human rights. Countries like India, usa etc have constitution , england has no constitution ( if I am correct , but laws and traditions and more decency). Still these are democratic nations. We or China has also constitution but we are not democracy. Practice makes difference.
The problem in our county is how to follow constitution in true spirit and letters. The spirit was shown when Gen Zia said what is constitution, i can tear it , just papers or present ruler just ordered courts to approve `` CEO` thing.
It is clear that black or brown men and women of pakistan can not produce a dozen of good supreme court who can FOLLOW the law of Land. This is not regratable but understandable as it is corrouption at highest level a mental corrouption. Generally blacks and browns are still backward mentally ( you can become lawyer but mental retardation can not be taken out of him , Punjabi can wear coat or tie at 110 degree temp in lahore but he can not be good as old whirte british officer of bottom rank with great respect of law and understanding).
Our courts will always rule khaki rule as ``fact accomplee`` and declare doctorine of necessecity and army rule will be upheld. I read things have become worst for blacks in South Africa after Mohatma lover dark Mandella took over. Same thing in Pakistan it is worst than Raj. Even person like me born in 1948 are for return of Raj. Still we rever Col Nicolson, or name of person who was replaced by Faisalabad as they did so much for ungrateful dark people.
What we need ``Recolonization`` of Pakistan under United Nations. We can have our bhutto constitution but supreme court should be made up of only white Judges ( english only) who can interpreat our constitution. That is only way, may be 2 american judges ok but majority be british those are nice white people left with some decency and good english.
Just like we have foreign consultants we can have foreign ( note majority British) supreme court judges and rule of Jungle law will be gone.
I agree with JINNAHOLIC and MAHATMAPHOBIC Mr. Manto about his thoughts about constitution but to carry out letter of constitution in real world we NEED WHITE JUDGES from ENGLAND.
Good Night. It good time, my cat was missing for 13 days and has returned home , very happy to see cat the most beautiful animal, 11 years old and still good attitude.

#73
quote:
``India has the best behaved Muslims in the world``
``Most are mild``
``Islamic fanaticism is not as prevalent in India as it is in other countries``

>90% of muslims in india,pak,bangladesh are converts from hinduism
>living as a minority has had a moderating effect

but this moderating effect is NOT ENOUGH as of now.
we need to do more.
the tools we need to use are TV,promotion of english language at the (expense) of urdu &
arabic(so called divine language of muslims) , globalisation of economies-trade, free flow of goods-services ,money-capital in all its tangible-intangible forms. In short , to promote
ECONOMIC SENSE-WISDOM among all of us.