'Constitutionally' Different Neighbours

Re: # 53
[No one else from Pak is anywhere REMOTELY this neutral, thus his Pak credentials are being questioned.]

bharath...
no pakistani can be anywhere close to your salim bhai for the simple reason, pakistanis can only be jihadis, fundamentalist, terrorist,hatemongers, but certainly not neutral...as i have learned on chowk from the learned hindoos and quasi-hindoos...therefore, he is all your`s...you may use him after a p k abulkalam dies or retires...

hai ahl-e-dil ke liye ab ye nazm-e-bast-o-kushaad
ke sung-o-khisht muqayyad hain aur sug azaad

#46, kedarnathji {``...A Paki preaching on secularism is like a rapist giving talks on the virtues of celibacy. ``}

Kedar bhai,
aap na idhar na udhar - obviously you mistake me for someone else. May I take a message for Maulana Urstruly Sahib?

{``Bottom line is that I don`t support vigilante justice system by any community be it Hindus, Muslims, Punjabis, Biharis, you name it. I want culprits on both sides to be punished. However, the bottom line is that you cannot clap with one hand. Muslims the world over especially in India more than make sure that they keep the pot boiling. In a region like the subcontinent where passions run high, Muslims also have a responsibility to make sure that they don`t make provocative speeches or indulge in provocative actions. If not then they will have to bear the consequences of their actions.``}

AMEN, brother, AMEN


{``You, Rakesh Mani and other Islamic fundamentalism appeasers can explain to me as to why you all are silent on the Solapur riots of September 2002.``}

Which riots? Sorry, I wasn`t aware of them. Please tell me the details. This is the first I am hearing of the Sholapur riots of Sept ``02

{`` Jerry Falwell, the American preacher called Muhammed a terrorist. The same Falwell who has called Hinduism a satanic cult. Muslims did not have the cojones to take on the powerful American Christian Right and hence decided to pick on the softer target, the Hindus of India.``}

Kedar Bhai, Falwell is a jackass. We just have higher expectations of our Hindu brethren. :) Thanks.

#49,
Yaar Stuka,
Since when did you start being so focused and perceptive? :) The move to the west coast has really made you sharper. You are so right in your analysis of what would have probably happened had Mr. Jinnah lived longer. Also, your remark about papering over the issues rather than dealing with them is also factual - we are praying the price for that pusillanimous behavior of the founding fathers in Pakistan.

``Yet, had Jinnah been alive and in power in Pakistan until the mid-60s, just as Nehru was in India, Pakistan would be a radically different place today. No leader in Pakistan has enjoyed the virtual carte-blanche that Jinnah had in Pakistan. He had the support of the masses; and the brains. He would`ve ``cast his die`` on Pakistan`s politics, just as Nehru did in India.
``

Hypothetical. Jinnah had to create a mass movement in the end and a mass movement once created has its own momentum. If Gandhi could be killed by a Hindu, no reason Jinnah could not be killed by a Muslim if the latter tried to shove secularism down the throats of a resistant population. Also, Congress had been upfront about Socialism. ML had wooed Muslim Zamindars, no way could it have gone against the Feudals. Third and most important, both Jinnah and Nehru had their political base in India. Jinnah`s language issue would have earned him enemies in East Pak and his move against feudals would have earned him enemies in Sind, Punjab etc. Jinnah is considered great precisely because he died soon after partition. Had he lived, he would have been as open to criticism as Nehru became in the 60s. This whole ``had Jinnah lived..`` is a bogey to explain institututional failures. Jinnah`s own political instincts were antithetical to the established status quo of West Pakistan. The differences were papered over during the struggle and immediate aftermath of Pakistan but would have come up at some point.

Re: # 49

Touche

Thank whoever for Jinnah..If it weren`t for him, this would reflect poorly on India..this and the fact that every other week, we hear of some paki somwehere in the world being busted for terrorism...

US refuses direct flights from Pakistan

#44 by Salim_Chauhan on April 28, 2006 12:14pm PT

[quote]While not exactly state policy in India, religious intolerance is also not as benign as a mere ``aberration`` either. State-sponsored massacres of 2000 innocent people and rape, mutilation, and cremation of hundreds of little girls and pregnant women is not exactly an ``aberration.`` Please select a more horrible-sounding terms so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.[/quote]

Yep! they should have burnt 59 pilgrims in a train. That would have classified Hinduism as religion of peace and tolerance. Well it works for Islam though.

A Paki preaching on secularism is like a rapist giving talks on the virtues of celibacy.

Bottom line is that I don`t support vigilante justice system by any community be it Hindus, Muslims, Punjabis, Biharis, you name it. I want culprits on both sides to be punished. However, the bottom line is that you cannot clap with one hand. Muslims the world over especially in India more than make sure that they keep the pot boiling. In a region like the subcontinent where passions run high, Muslims also have a responsibility to make sure that they don`t make provocative speeches or indulge in provocative actions. If not then they will have to bear the consequences of their actions. Unlike the US or the UK or most of the Western world, India does not have the resources to have a good law and order machinery. A lot depends on the individual folks as well.

You, Rakesh Mani and other Islamic fundamentalism appeasers can explain to me as to why you all are silent on the Solapur riots of September 2002. Jerry Falwell, the American preacher called Muhammed a terrorist. The same Falwell who has called Hinduism a satanic cult. Muslims did not have the cojones to take on the powerful American Christian Right and hence decided to pick on the softer target, the Hindus of India.

Re: # 46

Kedarnathji,

[Muslims the world over especially in India more than make sure that they keep the pot boiling. In a region like the subcontinent where passions run high, Muslims also have a responsibility to make sure that they don`t make provocative speeches or indulge in provocative actions. If not then they will have to bear the consequences of their actions]

I agree with you.. you`re absolutely right. Muslims should refrain from hurting Hindu religious sentiments and preaching against Hindus and Kaffirs in their sermons. However, the same goes for the Hindus as well.. after all, ``you can`t clap with just one hand.``

All in all, Hindutva and Islamic fundamentalism are both reactionary forces. If there`s nothing to fight and rally against, there`s no power.. no support. Hence, the two feed off each other, each contributing to the others power base.

[You, Rakesh Mani and other Islamic fundamentalism appeasers can explain to me as to why you all are silent on the Solapur riots of September 2002]

Let me make this very clear.. I don`t approve of any form of fundamentalism. Period. Whether it`s Hindu, Islamic or even Secular fundamentalism (such as in Turkey)

Re: # 46
Kedar, AFAIK , Salim has never shown any inclination for any kinda Islamic law. So,
telling him whatever u did, is like preaching to the choir ...

#42, rakeshmani {``And sir.. everytime Indians see Pakistani Hindus being viciously attacked and their girls being abducted and forcefully converted. Everytime we hear of temples being vandalised.. we too are glad that we, at least, live in a secular country. And while religious intolerance in India is more of an aberration.. it isn`t state policy as it is in Pakistan``}

Rakesh,
While not exactly state policy in India, religious intolerance is also not as benign as a mere ``aberration`` either. State-sponsored massacres of 2000 innocent people and rape, mutilation, and cremation of hundreds of little girls and pregnant women is not exactly an ``aberration.`` Please select a more horrible-sounding terms so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.

The stories about vandalism, abductions, rapes, and killings of non-Muslims in Pakistan are quite factual. Unfortunately, they are par for the course in Pakistan. Even Muslim minorities are subjected to rapes, killings, and having their places of worship blown up. The Tally Ban, Muslim ambassadors of good will and love from Pakistan, had even issued a fatwa proclaiming that rapes of Shia women were justifiable and killing of Shia men would merit paradise.

Your remark about Pakistan is right on target. It is one thing to sneak through and cover up a state-organized massacre, it is several times more hideous to ``legislate`` religious persecution and give it the legal and moral authority of the state.

Re: # 44

[.... Please select a more horrible-sounding term so that right-wing Hindutva types don`t try to ``aberrate`` at will.]

[...vandalism, abductions, rapes, and killings of non-Muslims in Pakistan are quite factual. Even Muslim minorities are subjected to rapes, killings, and having their places of worship blown up]

Salim bhai,

Absolutely. The choicest condemnations must be used when describing those who initiate pogroms based on religion. The likes of the VHP and RSS in India are to be condemned along with the Taleban, ISI and the nefarious Mullahs in such places as Pakistan, Iran and Saudi Arabia, not to mention several others for their atrocities.

I wouldn`t be surprised if some of these people express unfettered admiration for the manner in which minorities were exterminated in Nazi Germany. Let`s not allow another Auschwitz... anywhere!

Boy !!! There we go again. How many times have we heard ``If Jinnah had lived ....where as Nehru lived ...``?.
It did not matter. Most important thing is what masses of these two countries wanted. Anyway Jinnah had no chance, he would have been shot dead by an Indian Muslim some time after partition.

Isn`t it time already to get rid off that mentality ``If Jinnah/Nehru was alive for a few more years..``.. For heaven`s (or hell`s) sake, 1947 was close to 60 years behind and these guys could either have been reborn (and died already) or rotting in everlasting hellfire or enjoying in everlasting paradise depending on whatever BS you believe in..

It`s time to move on.. If you want to blame Jinnah/Nehru for the problems now you might as well blame Chandragupta Maurya, Muhammad ghazni etc..etc.. :-))

Savail,

Why so much academic jargon to drive home a point so obvious?

Nevertheless, I agree with your conclusions. Congress` domination and deep roots have definitely helped India in some ways, but look at flip side of it:

We are bound to Psuedo Secular policies which are unhealthy to both Indic religions as well as the minorities

We were shackled by Socialist economic policies for almost 50 years which nearly killed the development of our country

Thank god we are beginning to correct both these issues now.

All in all, many thanks to Gandhi and Nehru. But Time to discard them.

Rgds,

Re: # 35

[We are bound to Psuedo Secular policies which are unhealthy to both Indic religions as well as the minorities]

Krishnaji,

Could you please provide your reasoning behind this statement?

Re: # 39
> Could you please provide your reasoning behind this statement? ....
Rakesh Ji,
If you did not get the answer to this from that `mythical` article, something tells me, you
are not going to get it from whatever answer Krishna gives you ....