'Constitutionally' Different Neighbours

Re: # 40

Wiseguyin,

Kya karen? Such attitudes never cease to shock and amaze me.
``Secularism being harmful to the Indic religions?``

After all those posts from the ``mythical article``.. if there`s one thing that came out.. it`s that secularism is the way to go.

Re: # 43
> ...... if there`s one thing that came out.. it`s that secularism is the way to go..

rakesh - on that thread ALL of the (so-called) hinud extremists said that secularism is
the only way forward ! What we are against, though, is the minority appeasement
that goes on in the name of secularism. THAT is unacceptable.

[shakes head] You missed that ! [/shakes head]

Re: # 45

Please see #54

Re: # 57
Sirji, After decades of sh|t being bandied about in India, in the name of secularism - what
else were you expecting ?
Besides - in case you did not notice, Krishna ji is NOT talking of Hindu Supremacy anywhere. He is talking of Indic religions being given supremacy. This includes our
philosophies which are inherently pacific.
GAWD, even a Hinud fundamentalist wud be categorised as a liberal in a muslim country !
Believe me, if we actually do what he is saying - we would be called a progressive country,
in the mould of a malaysia.

> .... However, the same goes for the Hindus as well.. ...
This is EXACTLY the kinda sh|t that gets the label of secularism in our country.
This equating of an obviously violent cult with higher philosphies, as if all of them are
equally inclined towards violence, is only going to nurture more Krishna`s..
To give an example -
We are supposed to be a hinud majority country and in 6 decades we have not been able
to build 1 temple in ayodhya. 1 temple in the birthplace of the lord. Just 1.
And its not like we are asking for the temple over Kaaba ( though god knows mankind
can benefit from that ).
If this is your secularism then we don`t want it. But neither do we want mosques that have
already been built - to be pulled down.

neways, i may write an ilog or article some time, on this ....
ciao

Re: # 60 wise
[.....Believe me, if we actually do what he is saying - we would be called a progressive country, in the mould of a malaysia.....]

good point... Malayasia is an interesting country - it`s one of them relatively developed place in muslim world where people are supposed to be ``moderate`` muslims.... but are they really?.....

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 04 29 story_29-4-2006_pg3_5

``Malaysia is hosting a conference to discuss crucial questions like how does a Muslim pray in space, how will he take ablutions and which direction shall he face``

Re: # 45

That`s true.. and I agree. But that`s not what Mr Krishna is saying. He claims to be ``bound`` to secularism.. evoking a sense of being forced into it against his will. That`s what I find irksome.. and so I`m making my displeasure known :)

Re: # 47

```` That`s true.. and I agree. But that`s not what Mr Krishna is saying. He claims to be ``bound`` to secularism.. evoking a sense of being forced into it against his will. ````

The mistake we made in `47 was to make India a secular country. And follow that with policies which are anti-Hindu.

So most of Hindus here want the bias to be corrected. I want more. I want India to be made a country where all Indic religions have equal and first status. Where Hindus/other Indic religions suppressed all over the world can get asylum. Where Hindus are not discriminated against.

```` That`s what I find irksome.. and so I`m making my displeasure known :)````

Too bad it`s irksome. I guess you have to learn to live with folks like me just as I am doing with folks like you ;-)

Rgds,
Avkrishna

Re: # 54

[The mistake we made in `47 was to make India a secular country. And follow that with policies which are anti-Hindu.... India to be made a country where all Indic religions have equal and first status. Where Hindus/other Indic religions suppressed all over the world can get asylum. Where Hindus are not discriminated against. ]

So you`d like India to be a Hindu country.. and Hindus have ``first`` status. So doesn`t this indirectly mean that the minorities will be discriminated against? Besides.. what about the affirmative action program, are you against that as well? So India becomes not just Hindu.. but dominated by the Brahmin (like myself) and upper caste elites, just like in the past?

You speak of Hindus being suppressed ``all over the world``... I can understand that they are being not only suppressed, but also strangulated, in Pakistan. But where else? Where else are non-Indian Hindu citizens being suppressed and discriminated against?

Re: # 59

```` So you`d like India to be a Hindu country.. and Hindus have ``first`` status. So doesn`t this indirectly mean that the minorities will be discriminated against? ````

I meant all Indic religions will have equal status, not just Hindus. Yes, by definition it means that other religious Minorities will not have the same rights. (similar to Pakistan, Malaysia etc.) To what extent and all can be decided if ever this even comes close to fruition (which is not anytime soon)

```` Besides.. what about the affirmative action program, are you against that as well? ````

No, I am not against affirmative action; I am very much in favour of caste based, need based, gender based reservations in both Public and Private sector. Of course, I have alternate views on to what extent these can be given and how the systems should be designed both to prevent abuse of the system as well as to maintain the competitiveness of economy. You can read about my full views on other threads.

````So India becomes not just Hindu.. but dominated by the Brahmin (like myself) and upper caste elites, just like in the past? ````

To my earlier point, this will not be an issue. (Btw, I dont care about the caste of interactors here. So no need for these disclosures)

````You speak of Hindus being suppressed ``all over the world``... I can understand that they are being not only suppressed, but also strangulated, in Pakistan. But where else? Where else are non-Indian Hindu citizens being suppressed and discriminated against?````

Bangladesh, Indonesia, Malaysia, Caribbean, Fiji to name some.

Rgds,
Avkrishna

PS: wiseguyin had captured some of the other flaws in your logic very well. Very fine line between being a judicious liberal and being a politically correct, minority appeasing wuss. Being the latter gets you no respect. You should learn from the Democrats in this country,

Mantolives:

2- As Prime Minister Chaudhry Muhammad Ali was never member of the Muslim League and was bureaucrat... but if you could produce the reference I can comment.. also Chaudhry sahab was not even a cabinet member in the period that Jogindranath Mandal was the Law Minister. If he said it ofcourse he was wrong..

What more reference do you need?. I gave you the title of the book. I can`t remember the page number and paragraph number..

The emergence of Pakistan.
by Ali, Chaudhri Muhammad.
New York, Columbia University Press, 1967.
Description:
ix, 418 p. maps. 24 cm.

Definitely Jogindernath Mandal migrated back to India and that too within a few years of believing in the ``great salesman`s dream``.. you can`t deny it.

Your arguments are `tragicomical`.

Everytime Pakistanis see another state pogrom of Muslims, sikhs and Christians in India I think they reassure themselves that while Jinnah made mistakes they prefer freedom in Pakistan over slavery in India!

Blaming the Army for everything in Pakistan is unfair post 1950 it was the civil service which dominated politics...it was the Ghulam Muhammads and Iskandier Mirzas all fine products of the ICS which messed up Pakistan and not the Army..

Re: # 33

[Everytime Pakistanis see another state pogrom of Muslims, sikhs and Christians in India I think they reassure themselves that while Jinnah made mistakes they prefer freedom in Pakistan over slavery in India!]

And sir.. everytime Indians see Pakistani Hindus being viciously attacked and their girls being abducted and forcefully converted. Everytime we hear of temples being vandalised.. we too are glad that we, at least, live in a secular country. And while religious intolerance in India is more of an aberration.. it isn`t state policy as it is in Pakistan

Re: # 33
> pogrom of Muslims, sikhs and Christians in India .....
Zakk, why don`t you do something about saving ur muslim bros ?
like inviting someof them to ur paradise ???? u just need to pay some amount towards
travel and citizenship/immigration costs ?
I promise, for every guy u save, I will pay towards inviting a non-muslim from ur country
to India. It dont matter if he/she is hindu/christian/sikh... whatever. As long as that
person is non-muslim.

kapish ?
that way ur land can become more pure and lesser kafirs means u guys can practice ur
prophets teaching in a better way. Heck- everybody knows that !!!!!

#30

Mohar mian,

Oh so now I am a sunni? Is that all you can do? Think up what new faith I converted to this week?

Arjun mian...

Context is everything. My post about Jinnah`s reading habits was in response to the suggestion that his reading habits revolved around Law and law alone.

Dear Masanamuthu...

1- The Hasba Bill- passed by the sons of those who had opposed Pakistan`s very creation tooth and nail- was defeated by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. I recently went to NWFP and I can assure you that most of our perceptions of the province are wrong and most people there voted for the Mullahs ...

2- As Prime Minister Chaudhry Muhammad Ali was never member of the Muslim League and was bureaucrat... but if you could produce the reference I can comment.. also Chaudhry sahab was not even a cabinet member in the period that Jogindranath Mandal was the Law Minister. If he said it ofcourse he was wrong..


Surely you don`t think India has become a paradise on earth... my question thus is a valid one.




Dear Mujumdar...

My own research shows that Jinnah was often surrounded by masses - especially after the Pakistan movement but even before that... the picture below is one of the many such pictures that I felt showed how comfortable people were in approaching Jinnah with their problems... For Pakistanis it is a big thing... in a country where leaders ride in huge escorts... Jinnah drove in a single car with a single escort... and stopped at railway crossings and obeyed the laws setting an example.






As for Bourkwhite... the question was raised by Richard Grenier and later he concluded no.