The “D” Word

Re: Yourstruly
1: There isnt a method of offering prayer in the Quran. We assume that a method is needed, and can prayer not be offered without a ritualized method. What method did multitude of prophets such as Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jesus, Jacob follow to offer prayers.
Al Quran Chapter 2:238
``Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind)``.
Al Quran Chapter 7:205
``And do thou (O reader!) Bring thy Lord to remembrance in thy (very) soul, with humility and in reverence, without loudness in words, in the mornings and evenings; and be not thou of those who are unheedful.``
Al Quran Chapter 17:110
``Say: ``Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between.``
Al Quran Chapter 2:135
``They say: ``Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).`` Say thou: ``Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah.``
Al Quran Chapter 2:136
``Say ye: ``We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam).``
AL Quran Chapter 2: 286
``On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) ``Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith.``
As far as Zakat is concerned:
Al Quran Chapter 9:60
``Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah. and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.``
Also Observe:
Al Quran 2:271
``If ye disclose (acts of) charity, even so it is well, but if ye conceal them, and make them reach those (really) in need, that is best for you: It will remove from you some of your (stains of) evil. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do.``
And Lastly,
AL Quran Chapter 2: 177
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah fearing.``

Muslims do use other means for call to prayer:
In some mosques of Indonesia, especially the minaret at the Masjid Menara (Minaret Mosque) in Kudus is the earliest example of a Javanese minaret. The drum used to summon Muslims to prayer, is unique as the drum is usually located at ground level in a serambi or covered open area. The kentongan, also used to call for prayers, is a hollowed wooden instrument that resonates when struck.
http://archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.tcl?site_id=7489

On the subject of Divorce:

Whether the culture appreciates it or not, women are surviving the aftermath of divorce. Some are doing 100 times better than when they were married. In my own family, two of my female cousins went through the painful process. Both of them had initiated the divorce. One of them had the right of divorce; whereas the other one did not and had to go through the court proceedings. Both of them have done quite well in their professional lives after their divorces. One was working during the time when she was married and continued with that. Despite the love marriage, the marriage did not last past 5-6 years due to several issues. There is a child in the picture who is being raised by my cousin with the help of my aunt and uncle.

The other scenario was very unpleasant where the young woman had issues with the temperament of her husband and their marriage did not go past 1 year. She is a banker and has been doing very well.

Personally, I have immense respect for both of them. One can respect any human being on this planet for different attributes, but those who stand up for themselves when they need to and listen to their own heart and soul have to be appreciated - specially, in women`s case.

Life is short. Why live with someone who you do not respect and love and vice versa? One is my pophi zaad and the other one is my khala zaad. Both of them are quite social and have not let an incident block the growth and development of their lives. There must be some left over scars there, but that is not the end of life. I am sure they must have come across difficult situations and scenarios but the fact that both of them are very vocal and confident about themselves and their preferences in life, has given them immense courage. Now, some insecure men may see that as a big negative for women to divorce a man, have their own life and successful careers (where the woman gets to spend and live the life of her choice). Such men need to be completely ignored.

I did NOT like Soysauce`s remark. It was derogatory and ridiculous. If the culture has certain values and outlook that require a complete overhaul and should be shunned and buried alive(along with the men who hold the despicable views) then one does not need to further highlight those features of that culture. Soysauce`s remark may have been an innocuous remark, but I do not think a naive fool was writing that ``flippant remark``. It was an insensitive and curt post.

urstruly,

....... with your views about women i hope you have a good relationship with your pet goat and chicken ..........

Malik99, Romair & Urstruly:
Great men all, All great men--these of CHOWK.

May I recommend a very comprehensive and well-organised site?
This one!

.... i hate to be blunt, but what does bukhari have to say about oral sex ?

........... because, according to my rather unscientific survey, oral sex, or the lack of it, is the leading cause of divorce ........

........ people, let`s be honest, first and foremost, a successful marriage is based on a satisfactory sex life - everything else comes much much later ..... and, as we all know, men and women like oral sex more than football and foreplay ......... it is the litmus test that you have pass before you can start talking about intellectual compatibility and all that other stuff .......... no?... sorry, but someone has to speak his mind .....

Romair - You dispute Urstruly`s point ``Without Hadith Qura`n cannot be understood.``

Frankly, sometimes I get amazed how completely rational people can skew their own logic. Let me give an example.

Einstein wrote his theory of relativity nearly 100 years ago. Today, you go to your physics class, and trust a 30 something professor to help you understand the intricacies of this theory. Not once do you stand up in the class and demand that you want to see the
``original manuscript`` where Einstein wrote that theory. You trust your teacher enough to take him for his word. At the most, you cross check through other references whether your professor had it right or not.

I understand that Quran is simple enough for all nations and all times. However, by disregarding the ahadith you are doing away with an important source of explanation of the deeper meanings of Quran.

Let me take you on your word that Quran is so simple that even a village man should be able to understand it without an accompanying explanation. Now, you are rather educated person. So could you please explain for me what the following ayah in Surah Nisa verse 34
means?

Transliteration:
Alrrijalu qawwamoona AAala alnnisa-i bima faddala Allahu baAAdahum AAala baAAdin wabima anfaqoo min amwalihim faalssalihatu qanitatun hafithatun lilghaybi bima hafitha Allahu waallatee takhafoona nushoozahunna faAAithoohunna waohjuroohunna fee almadajiAAi waidriboohunna fa-in ataAAnakum fala tabghoo AAalayhinna sabeelan inna Allaha kana AAaliyyan kabeeran

Here is a translation that i got from one source:
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

I would really look forward to your response. And when you put your response to this simple ayah, I would very much appreciate if you could point out which sources did you use to come with that explanation. And also, if you used some translation, please also give me the reason as to WHY you trusted that man to have the most accurate translation (I am assuming that you are not well versed in Arabic so therefore will have to depend on someone`s translation).

Thanks and look forward to your response.

Romair:

There are three ways to answer your questions

1. Take them one by one and reply them categorically with rhetoric and logic. That will gt us no where.

2. Point you towards some good and objective books written on the subject of compilation of Qura`n and Hadith

3. Set some ground rules before we embark on any discourse.

Frankly, I do not have time to go with option 1 and I will go with option 2 only if asked. Therefore, I will chose option 3 to save time and energy, so that this discussion concludes to a logical end. To do that I will adopt your approach. It is my understanding from reading your post that you at least, for sake of argument, would like to consider that Quran` is the unalterable word of God and the only source of guidance for our actions and values. Let us for argument`s sake consider that all ahadiths are invalid and irrelevant. Then please explain to me:

1. Where in Qura`n it is written the method of offering Namaz; where it is written what to say when you prostrate and what to say when you stand straight or sit down. Where it is written that there are so many units (rakat) in the Namaz of a certain time, or of Eid prayer, or of funeral prayer, and so on and so forth. Since it is not written in Quran` then should we just stop praying altogether. Please interpret those verses for me where do you think it is written how to say your prayers.

2. Qura`n also says to pay zakat, now please show me one verse where it stipulates how much to pay and on what kind of wealth to pay. Please show me those verses since Qura`n is the complete code. Now since there aren`t any such verses then should we stop paying zakat. But Allah has promised horrible punishment in after life we don`t pay zakat or say prayers - would you want to save all Muslims from Hellfire by finding something in Qura`n?

3. Azan is something that has an origin neither in Quran nor in Hadith, then why do we do it? Should`t we ring bells or sound air raid alarm to call belivers to the mosques instead?

4. Where in Quran it is written how to perform Hajj.

5. Where in Qura`n it is stiulated on how to fast; what corrupts a fast; and what breaks it.


These are some of the absolute basics of being Muslims. Since you belive in basics then you must have answers. Please explain these points before we go any further.

Vertex

Think. What enabled you to correct a copy at your home. It is a system of checks and balances that work by itself. You could have just left it as it was.

Vertex

I do not claim perfection but I do think twice before I write:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Al-Hijr (The Rock City) 15:9

And the word of your Lord has been accomplished truly and justly; there is none who can change His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.


Al-Anaam (The Cattle) 6:115

Romair #42
The comparison of marriage with roomates is an oversimplification. Examining the position of a woman wrt marriage in the subcontinent would give you an idea how many submissions they have to make and freedoms they have to forego, before it can even come to the discretion of a nice guy. For eg. A woman is expected to go to her husbands home,which can be a joint family.If she wants to go nuclear, she would be labelled a home breaker.A man cant be expected to be a ghar jamai, it is too demeaning. Similar situations exist viz a viz a woman being a careerist or even just being financial independent and raising kids etc. There are many such double standards, I can give more examples.This is what was being meant by freedom.Not the roommate kinda squibbles like- oh i dont want to eat there today or you cant play the music that loudly or you cant leave the light on.
hamidm #43 Viagara for women is not required.Even if they can lose the stigma associated with sex, the power equation will be overturned. No kidding.
soysauce #56, I said that earlier and I strongly believe that children from disturbed homes would tend to be more dysfunctional than those raised by single parents.

Urstruly,

``God Himself has taken responsibility to preserve it...``

Always qualify your statements. I have a Quran at home that has a few penciled in corrections that were made by the Imam that was teaching us how to recite...the dot-for-dot, and word-for-word preservation is clearly nonsense.

Urstruly #50: Interesting analysis.

I have debated this, and similar issues, with quite a few individuals with an inclination similar to yours. And within a few comments, they tend to disappear Hopefully, you will not disappear. Let us take each issue one by one:

As Muslims, we assume the Quran to be the genuine word of God. If we don`t believe that then the whole concept of Islam goes away, and the debate doesn`t exist to begin with. So let`s start from the Quran being genuine (at least in the belief of Muslims). Now we move to the hadith. Could you kindly answer the following:

1. Can you point me to any mention in the Quran of the existence of Mr. Bukhari. Anything pointing to the fact that Bukhari and others would arrive and list the hadith (as they saw them) and we should all follow them. Not indirect extrapolated references, but a direct one.

2. ``But it does not mean that Ahadith did not exist in the interim period. Actaully they did, in the form of journals, parchments, and other books written by several of Holy Prophet`s companions. It is actually the collation that began 150 years later.``

Are you suggesting that all the hadith, that have ended up in the various books, were written down in journals and parchments. This is obviously not the case. And how in the world can you assume that the ones that were written down were genuine. Were they signed by the Prophet? Obviously not.

Is there a direct reference to parchments given in the hadith books. Of course not. The references are based more on word of mouth passing of hadith, than anything else. If even one wasn`t written down, they become unauthentic, as a whole. And hence cannot be used as a basis of jurisprudence.

Infact, the hadith books themselves weren`t authorized by Muhammad in any way. Why didn`t he just collect and organize them like the Quran in his lifetime?

3. ``According to one hadith Holy Prophet himself approved of this method.``

You are using a hadith to justify the concept of hadith itself. Can you point to any references to this approval in the Quran. The Quran refers to everything from houris to birds to insects. One would think that something as important as hadith and their recording on parchment would be directly mentioned in it.

4. ``Without Hadith Qura`n cannot be understood.``

This is an incorrcet comment. And could be considered blasphemous. There is absolutely no comment in the Quran indicating this. Quite the contrary. The Quran states that, Islam, the religion has been completed with the Quran. It states,

````This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.`` - Qur`an 5:3 ``

It does not state that a person named Bukhari will come and then religion will be completed.

Hadith are a layer of religion, created on top of the Quran, unnecesarily. They should only be used for historical purposes. And not for jurisprudence. For the simple reason, that they are the word of a man (men), like Bukhair, who have then quoted other men, who quote their forefathers, trailing back everything to the Prophet. It is logically impossible for such a mechanism to not have errors, regardless of how sincere everyone may have been, in their efforts.............

Essentially, hadith give Bukhari and the Sahaba he quotes a status almost equivalent to the Quran.........

P.S. Just out of curiosity, can you point me to the physical parchment that was referenced for the hadith that you have mentioned: describing hell to be filled with a majority of women. I would like the exact parchment and its current location and authenticity. Has it been filed and carbon dated? If it is in Turkey, I would like to check it out on my next trip to the area. Something declaring 50% of the population fo the world to be the majority in hell is no small matter and should be authenticated, before being thrown around..........

sajal 40,

In the pak spciety of today, convent education is anachronistic. Most of the convents schools were established long before the hoodoods became the guiding light of pak society and as far as I know, no new christian schools or places of worship of any other religion were built in the last 25 years.

As pak society evolves, more and more of products of convents like Aisha will be in conflict with the prevailing social norms. Divoce is not a big thing in most western societies as it is consistant with the evolving social values. In pakistan, more women are being shut behind the purdhas when compared to the days, as you say, when benazir was young. There are more honour killings now than ever before. Jirga is expected to get legal status in Sindh.

What is really needed is for the educated of pakistan to accept the reality, wait for the golden age when a bearded general will take over the country. Help this evolution of pakistan, close down the convents, push the country along the vision of its creators, islamic republic of pakistan. by the way, lailaha illalla, pakistan ka matlab kya.

Do not forget, Mushy has declared that TNT os live and well, and should guide pak policies. Muslims are seperate nation, tell me my friend, where is the role for convents in a land moulded by TNT.

Urstruly (#58, 59) …

Based on ahadith … your mullahs also believe in a two-thousand year old prophet … who will descend to earth one day, on shoulders of angels. Hey, if it is recorded, it must be correct …

There’re always other ahadith … where the Prophet said … whoever changes his religion, kill him … and where he had people killed for adultery, or blasphemy, or for watching too much television …

How does all this explain Quran … I fail to see. I am sure Malik has an answer …

More on ahadith … By declaring unanimously that Ahamdis are non-Muslims … your mullahs proved the authenticity of a hadith, according to which … one sect of Islam will be on the right path, and it will be opposed by all other sects. Would you like to see the reference to this one?

Abrogation of Quran … It is your mullahs who insist on abrogating verses of Quran. Just ask Naqsh to confirm. I once did … and was astonished to discover the intricacies of the nasikh/mansookh (abrogating/abrogated verses of Quran) views on Quran. According to this … there are 2 ways to abrogate verses of Quran … but I’ll digress ...

Ahmadi-Muslims see no contradictions in Quran … and accept all of it as the Word of Allah. Get your facts straight … unless your reading skills are degrading as fast as your intellect ... in which case, you should consider becoming an imam ...

RE: # 59 Urstruly

Talaq sey Ibtadaa, Hadith pey Ikhtamam
Tu hi bata Ae humnawa, Puhncha kahan Safr-e-Kalaam

Mr. Urstruly,
A consensus may have emerged about the validity of certain Hadith, so what! As an educated, independent critical thinking Muslim, I am not required to put my faith in such a consensus, if logic begs to differ. I firmly believe that God has revealed Quran to be understood by every Muslim man, woman and child. He has made it easy to understand, and hundreds of thousands of Hadith are not necessary to comprehend the meaning of Quran. Hadith can be helpful in furthering one`s understanding, but that is what they are, just another means to further understanding. THey are NOT, I repeat NOT on the same par as the Quran. It is not required of our faith as Muslims to believe in Hadith. If a certain Hadith contradicts one`s interpretation of a Quranic verse, but agrees with the majority view, it is still imperative for that individual to negate its validity. One of the major problems with Islamic society at large is that the wheel in itsself is corrupted, or skewed. Yes, In my opinion it needs to be re-invented. Only then an Islamic Renaissance would come about, when Muslims arent afraid to say, Bukhari was but a man! The Schools of Jurisprudence are stuck in the tenth century!
The Quran is all we need. It is simple, easy to understand, and promises salvation to its followers, and not to the followers of Sahih Muslim or Sahih Bukhari. THe point of contention between Shias and Sunnis is one Hadith,
`` For whomever I am Lord over, So is Ali``.
Also Mr. Urstruly, Last time I checked you do not sit upon the throne of God. Only God makes the decision whether the Ahmedi Sect of Islam is within the folds of Islam. I dont care what the consensus is among the world`s Islamic nations about Ahmedis. If a Ahmedi proclaims La ilaha il allah Muhammad u Rasool u Allah, that is all the confirmation I need of their faith. Who am I to tell them that they arent Muslims.
Also please be more specific about those books and parchments you say are preserved in the Topkapi Serray Museum in Istanbul, Turkey. The earliest extant copies of Islamic scripture and manuscripts are from the tenth century A.D and even those are extremely rare.
I think you should read books written by western scholars of Islam such as Anne Marie Schimmel, Karen Armstrong, Arthur F. Buehler, and Syed Hossein Nasr to understand unbiased views of the origins of Quran, Hadith, and Jurisprudence.