The “D” Word

Why is divorce any more shocking than breaking up with a bf/gf if there are no kids involved? Traditional marriage is a relatively recent idea that is falling by the wayside.

hamidm2 mian #168: ``romair mian,

......... your mother (and my mother) stayed married because they had no other choice and not because they had a ``successful`` marriage``

Is it ok if I call you mian also..........

I can`t speak for your mother, but I don`t think it is true for mine. One can tell, quite easily. She was far too authoratative to tolerate any nonsense from anyone (including me). After a certain stage in life, she could have easily gotten a divorce, if she wanted.

My wife could divorce me today, if she wanted to. There is absolutely nothing stopping her. She can live by herself, relatively comfortably. But she hasn`t divorced me. I assume because she does not want to. My sisters could divorce their husbands today. But they haven`t. So on and so forth.

If a society start using, ``divorce percentages`` as a criteria for liberation and succcess, then I am afraid it has lost the game before the game has started. Even in the West, the breakup of the nuclear family is considered a huge problem. They don`t elect a President who doesn`t have a successful marriage. For the simple reason that if a person cannot even run his own house, how the hell will he run the country.

The eventual trend will not be marriage and divorce. That is the most destructive trend. The eventual trend, in the West, will be women deliberately not gettting married, and having a child and living as a single mom. This is catching on in Europe. Do check the statistics in places like Iceland. It will catch on in the USA, once the religious right is out of power.

In my opinion, not getting married in the first place, is a much better option than getting married and then going for a divorce. In the later option, someone made a poor selection of a spouse, either the person getting married or the person`s parents.

If women want to excercise true liberation in Pakistan, they should not get married at all. There is no rule, religious or otherwise, that says they have to get married. That would work out better than the whole baggage and issues that are attached to marriage and to divorce.

Divorce isn`t as simple and as clean-cut as you are making it out to be. Even in the West, it is considered one of the most psychologically traumatic experiences, outside of death. Why get into a contract, if you know it is going to fail? This doesn`t mean, if you are in an abusive relationship, you should not get out. But isn`t it better to not get into one in the first place?

Re: # 148

hamidm

you should have addressed your post to Romair and not me. He is the one who is trying to wiggle out of the well-documented life of prophet (pbuh) not me.

romair mian,

......... your mother (and my mother) stayed married because they had no other choice and not because they had a ``successful`` marriage ......... about fifty percent of the pakistani married couples should be divorced, just like their western counterparts ........... there is no shame in that and it is a lot better to go your separate ways instead of living in misery ............. and like i said, the reason people didn`t do it was because both men and women were bound by tradition and, in addition, the women were bound by fear ............ however things are changing - in my immediate family (including first cousins and nieces and nephews) i don`t know anyone from my parent`s generation who was divorced, in my generation there have been three divorces and among my nephews and nieces there have been only three marriages and already one has ended in a divorce after three months .............

...... so cut out this crap about how our parents had ``successful`` marriages .......... if i treated mrs hamidm the way my father and uncles treated their wives i would be living in a one bedroom apartment with a goldfish in a bowl .............. and i cannot imagine my daughter putting up with someone who is a music ``elitist`` - whatever the heck that means, she thinks it is grounds for divorce ...........

Re: # 147 Shore Sahib

My last reply to Romair also applies to you.

Re: # 150


Romair

This is exactly where we started our discussion in the first place, isn`t it. See that is what happens when we discard hadith, we do nothing but chase our tails.

You quoted the following verse:

``This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.`` - Qur`an 5:3 ``

Very well, if the religion has completed then it must have all the interpretations inherent in it as well. It must contain all the explanations as well so that we need not look elsewhere. But that is not the case, if it were then Qura`n would have been the thickest, most cumbersome book ever written. If your interpretation of this verse is taken to be true then you should have no problem interpreting 5 simple verses of the chapter `The Elephant`; as I asked you in my post # 115. But the truth of the matter is that a simple question such as ``Who are these people of elephant, to which Quran is referring in that chapter``, would give you a run of your life. You have absolutely no other way of knowing the answer of this question unless you look into the Ahadith and the works of those who have preserved the traditions. The chapter `The Elephant` conveys to us a great message of hope and perseverance against all odds and how Allah`s help comes when man is on the verge of hopelessness. Unless we know and understand the context and background of this chapter, it becomes nothing but a meaningless and cryptic anecdote; the message is lost for the coming generations. And how do we understand the context of this chapter? By going thru the work of those who have preserved it – the very people whom you call liars and crooks.

The human thought process is an evolutionary process; similarly the process of interpretation is also an evolutionary process as the time changes, the interpretation changes as well. But our thought process is so much dependent on the precedence. We do not invent wheel every time, but we take the wheel and build cars and engines on it. But without the wheel they are nothing. Similarly, when we interpret Qura`n, first we check whether someone has already interpreted the issue under question or not. We check precedence. We go back 1 year, 5 years, decades, centuries, and keep on checking various interpretations; and of all the interpretations, we chose the best interpretation of Qura`n, the one that was done by Holy prophet (pbuh) himself.

Let me ask you this question that what do you do when you come across Qura`nic verses like this:

Certainly, there is an excellent example for you in the Messenger of Allah, for him who looks forward to Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much. – The Confederates 33:21

Isn`t it the case that when you come across such verses you say `Oh Prophet was only a good example for the people of his time but not for me or the people of this time`. Don`t you see your folly when no one else but Qura`n tells you that:

``Whoever splits from the Messenger after the guidance is clear to him and follows other than the path of the believers, We shall entrust him to what he has turned to and expose him unto Hell - an evil retreat!`` - Women 4:115

Who has given you the right over Prophet (pbuh) to decide what in Qura`n is applicable to you or anyone else and what is not. By transgressing the limits set by Allah Himself, aren`t you becoming the very clergy whom you detest? At least, the clergy whom you detest seeks its guidance from the path of Holy Prophet (pbuh) but you declare yourself better than Prophet himself. Ahadith are not word of God. It is the work of men who toiled for no other reason but to preserve the ways of our Guide (pbuh). Hadith is not perfect, but it is all we have. It is the fruit of the best of the efforts of preservation that are humanly possible. While interpreting Qura`n, the first precedence of interpretation goes to that done by Prophet himself; for a person like me following is just all the reason that I need:

``Say to them: If you love God, follow (and love and honor) me, and God will love you`` The House of Imran 3:31

I don’t think one can live one’s life driven by anger. That is one of the worst emotions to be driven by. Being angry at the South Asian male or the South Asian female or anyone else will produce a lot of emotion, but nothing constructive will result from it. Anger, loss of emotional control, etc. is a sign of weakness, in my opinion. One sees it on this site, so much. Push the right buttons, and most people lose control. That is, in fact, the easiest way to win a debate. Get the other person angry and watch them show their weakest side. A rule I learnt a long time ago: if you want to defeat someone, don’t get angry at them, don’t fight them; just become more successful than they are.

Marriage is the ultimate crap-shoot. It is a roll of the dice. And I would have to say, it is not for everyone. Anyone who thinks, “understanding” your future partner before getting married solves problems just needs to look at the divorce rate in North America. Couples here date for years, they live together for years before marriage, the have sexual relations, some even have children before marriage, yet most of them (over 50%) end up getting a divorce.

My mother and father saw each other the day they got married. They have had a successful marriage of decades. My in-laws saw each other the day they got engaged. Successful marriage there as well. I had an arranged marriage (actually an arranged engagement). And we are chugging along successfully (knock on wood). This is despite the fact that we have migrated to various different countries and have gone through major financial crises. My mother wore a burqa growing up. She never finished college. Yet by the time she retired, she was making far more than my father. In fact, the combined income of females in my family and well as educational qualifications, exceeds those of males (including me).

Yet I would say we are traditional Pakistani family. We are not Westernized. Not too, “liberal,” so to speak. None of us chose our own future spouses. But, there is no anger. I don’t think my wife has any pent-up anger against me. At least, none that I have seen, outside of the odd (and sometimes regular) heated arguments that all married couples have. I don’t think my mother or sisters have any pent-up anger against their husbands. There are, of course, one or two major things that everyone dislikes about the other, But, nothing amounting even close to a divorce.

For those who aren’t married yet, my advice would be, if you think you cannot handle it, or if you have negative feelings about it already, then don’t get into it. It has its own dynamics, which cannot be controlled by just one person, regardless of how, “liberated” they may think themselves to be. It is impossible to pick out the wolves from the rabbits, beforehand, because one is too young and inexperienced at the age of marriage. And love (barring Heer Ranjha) is not something that happens at first sight. It is something one grows into over decades of going through financial, emotional, and social ups and downs, together. After a while, you get into a routine, where life seems weird when you don’t have each other to fight with or go watch movies with. That is about the extent of love for 99% of the people. It is a dependency, a companionship and a friendship more than love.

“Goras fall in love and then get married. Desis get married and than fall in love,” as my father once told me. The older I get the more I am realizing the truth in this……..

That is marriage in a nutshell, i.e. the most important yet the most uncontrollable crap-shoot of a person’s life. You hand over half of your life to another person and get half of his/hers in return and then hope for the best. Those who are trying to put, “rules” around handling marriage, will be disappointed, because it has too many variables. There is no mathematical formula.

The biggest assets, one can have, as a 20-something (man or woman) about to get married are:

- A set of parents who understand you better than you understand yourself. They will have far more experience in picking out the wolves from the rabbits.
- A low set of expectations, while getting into a marriage, and accepting your wife/husband as they are, with all their faults and virtues
- Patience and the ability to compromise (within limits, of course) and realizing that life you want for yourself, will be altered once you are married
- And a desire to want to get married, in the first place, and not being forced into it, due to social pressures

Other than that, hope for the best, and prepare for the worst. And don’t let anger be your driving force. The above is specifically true for women, because in this roll of the dice, the dice are heavily loaded against them.

P.S. for the women who are husband-hunting at the moment, my $.02: Find a guy who genuinely respects women (not just you, but all women) and who can support you financially at an O.K. level. That is about it. Don’t worry too much about the other stuff, like him telling you to dress a certain way or his conservatism or liberalism etc. Men have no idea how to deal with women, when the get married (especially desi men). You will be able to change everything else about him, later, if you want: his clothes, his hairstyle, his choice of underwear, his techniques in bed, his lack of yuppie English-speaking skills etc. But what you will never be able to do is teach a man to respect women, if he hasn’t learnt it while growing up….

I gave up my my Fruit of the Loom briefs for boxers, somewhere along the line............comprimise........

......it all starts with the inequitable distribution of chicken parts .......

.............it is nice to see women speak for themselves for a change ........... the only thing i will say in defense of the south asian male is that our mothers are to blame .......... we are raised thinking that we are kings, heirs to the family commode, protectors of our sisters` honor who make our beds, fetch our slippers and set the table while our mothers dole out the chicken curry ............ we get the thigh and the breast meat while the women have to make do with the wings and the back - once in a while we will let them gnaw on a leftover leg ...........and what about those of us who eat fish ?............ well, it is heads and the tails for the women folk ............

I`ve always wondered who really this guy named M.B.Z Ispahani is, like almost all of you. At one time I was of the opinion that he is probably one of Huxley`s `Thousand Monkeys`, who are toiling on typewriters since eternity to re-produce one sonnet written by Shakespeare but as I analyzed his posts deeply I began to realize that he was nothing but a sick experiment by one of the Chowk webmasters – the artificial intelligence. MBZ is nothing but an intelligent program that generates posts. It is self-learning and it is getting intelligent everyday and one day like Matrix it will conquer us all. But then Chowk people started printing Veeresh`s articles and that was a big give away. No one in his right mind would let Veeresh`s articles publish unless he is MBZ. So now it is confirmed that MBZ is no one else but one of the Chowk Editor himself. Who else on God`s green earth has time to read every post and then Score it. MBZ.

Holy Khathija-
Are we being SCORED on our responses???

(unholy cackle)

This is a bold step by a courageous women.

This kind of suffering is a common occuring in the subcontinent societies but this has to end.

Marriages have to be conceded with more foresight and concideration of every aspect of compatibility. Not just getting married for the sake of marriage.

Marrying because mum wants to see her daughter son as a bride or groom!
Or I married the girl my mum, sister chose for me cause she is fair or wealthy!
I married cause I had to submit to my parents choice or to ease my parents burden or to grab a wealthy mate or acclaim a social status.
Or I was phisically attracted !

These are all the wrong reasons to be marrying for leading to dissatisfaction at some point in the partnership!

The right reasons for marring can be:

I find her to be supportive of my ideals.
We can talk for hours.
We share similar interests and backgrounds.
Our professions or goals in life are similar.

Please people & especially guardians have mercy and know your children better match them up according to their needs and personalities not according to what materially is beneficial or what is availible! Exercise patience & foresight.

Both our boys and girls are very obediant & are conditioned to submit but they are humans with a unique personal soul that requires certain encouraging sources to become a productive healthy part of the society which would further be creating other healthy members for the society. Buy adverse alignments we are not just jeopardising the happiness of 2 human beings but others who will be the product of this relationship.

Remember those who are dependant on us trust us don`t betray them(your children) by making wrong choices for them!

As for you boys & girls take off those rose colored glasses and put on the clear practical ones & choose what would work in your environment what you will be able to support not wreck!

This is a bold step by a courageous women.

This kind of suffering is a common occuring in the subcontinent societies but this has to end.

Marriages have to be conceded with more foresight and concideration of every aspect of compatibility. Not just getting married for the sake of marriage.

Marrying because mum wants to see her daughter son as a bride or groom!
Or I married the girl my mum, sister chose for me cause she is fair or wealthy!
I married cause I had to submit to my parents choice or to ease my parents burden or to grab a wealthy mate or acclaim a social status.
Or I was phisically attracted !

These are all the wrong reasons to be marrying for leading to dissatisfaction at some point in the partnership!

The right reasons for marring can be:

I find her to be supportive of my ideals.
We can talk for hours.
We share similar interests and backgrounds.
Our professions or goals in life are similar.

Please people & especially guardians have mercy and know your children better match them up according to their needs and personalities not according to what materially is beneficial or what is availible! Exercise patience & foresight.

Both our boys and girls are very obediant & are conditioned to submit but they are humans with a unique personal soul that requires certain encouraging sources to become a productive healthy part of the society which would further be creating other healthy members for the society. Buy adverse alignments we are not just jeopardising the happiness of 2 human beings but others who will be the product of this relationship.

Remember those who are dependant on us trust us don`t betray them(your children) by making wrong choices for them!

As for you boys & girls take off those rose colored glasses and put on the clear practical ones & choose what would work in your environment what you will be able to support not wreck!

This is a bold step by a courageous women.

This kind of suffering is a common occuring in the subcontinent societies but this has to end.

Marriages have to be conceded with more foresight and concideration of every aspect of compatibility. Not just getting married for the sake of marriage.

Marrying because mum wants to see her daughter son as a bride or groom!
Or I married the girl my mum, sister chose for me cause she is fair or wealthy!
I married cause I had to submit to my parents choice or to ease my parents burden or to grab a wealthy mate or acclaim a social status.
Or I was phisically attracted !

These are all the wrong reasons to be marrying for leading to dissatisfaction at some point in the partnership!

The right reasons for marring can be:

I find her to be supportive of my ideals.
We can talk for hours.
We share similar interests and backgrounds.
Our professions or goals in life are similar.

Please people & especially guardians have mercy and know your children better match them up according to their needs and personalities not according to what materially is beneficial or what is availible! Exercise patience & foresight.

Both our boys and girls are very obediant & are conditioned to submit but they are humans with a unique personal soul that requires certain encouraging sources to become a productive healthy part of the society which would further be creating other healthy members for the society. Buy adverse alignments we are not just jeopardising the happiness of 2 human beings but others who will be the product of this relationship.

Remember those who are dependant on us trust us don`t betray them(your children) by making wrong choices for them!

As for you boys & girls take off those rose colored glasses and put on the clear practical ones & choose what would work in your environment what you will be able to support not wreck!

Re:FarzanaVersey#155

Sorry to hear that you got divorced. It is rare to see you share your personal life on Chowk. I can understand some of your articles in the past, given the personal hell you were going through. Most of us did not understand why you sounded so bitter and angry. Hope things work out better in the future.

This article was an effort by a woman on the subject of divorce. All women should write and comment on the subject, its nuances, their observations and how it impacts the life of a woman (who may be a friend, a cousin, a neighbor, an acquaintance, a stranger or simply herself). You do not have to go through an experience to be passionate about a subject. Living in a society, where human beings live right and left of you, obviously you will see, hear and observe the choices women make and the results of those choices. Since the women who have gone through divorce are/were mostly in a relationship with a male therefore the behavior of men will be dissected, critiqued and discussed.

[Looking at the problems faced by Pakistani women considering divorce, and even while statistics tell us that divorce has become more frequent, the whole issue is laden with emotional blackmailing, characterized by the blame game.]

The above clearly talks about Pakistani Women. Obviously, it implies the men who made the women`s life miserable and led them to take a major decision. Had a male written a story like that then the tables could have turned around. Chowk is blessed with some men who have gone through divorce as well. They keep on referring to that here and there. Probably, they should muster up courage and care to share their experiences and then we will see how many men guide each other using religion? That will be a real eye-opener and will show some backbone or spine.

Lastly, I would appreciate if no ``wolf in sheep`s clothing`` addresses me on this board. I have no desire to interact with below average boys/wolves. I would not mind to interact with a rabbit though - provided he knows how to obey orders.

Thank you!

Re: ZahraJ 154
Zahra, I like your comments and somewhat agree with you. I am a South Asian male, but your comments about South Asian men do not offend me, rathey they ring quite true. It has been my experience that many, if not most Pakistani men are hypocrites of the highest order. But there are some very decent Pakistani men out there, but there numbers are few.
Zahra, I do request that you reconsider your opinion about All Pakistani men as nincompoops and wolves in sheep hides. Some of us are genuine, decent, liberal and upstanding.