The “D” Word
Aisha Farooqui January 18, 2005
#139 Posted by hamidm2 on January 23, 2005 8:45:11 am
zahraj,
.......... i think you might be on to something ....... even though all men are basically pigs, rabbits are better than south asian sheep-wolves ...........
.......... i think you might be on to something ....... even though all men are basically pigs, rabbits are better than south asian sheep-wolves ...........
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#138 Posted by Romair on January 22, 2005 11:05:55 pm
tehsah #137: ``What do you think about the woman-rights allowed by Islam in the light of the above hadees?``
This is the whole point I am trying to get across to Urstruly and malik99. If you take a look at the regressive religious views that exist in Islam 49 out of 50 will be from hadith. And if you take a look at the progressive religious views, 49 out of 50 will be from the Quran. So for those who want to follow Islam, they would be much better off, considering hadith to be just an attempt by Bukhari et al to record history, by talking to some people. Who told him stories that were told to them by their grandparents. Who learnt it from their grandparents and so on.
If people do not want to follow Islam, or any other religion, they should move on and live their lives, as they prefer. Rather then getting unnecessary ulcers by ridiculing others. But for those who do want religion in their lives, specifically Islam, if they followed the Quran, it would result in a much more abstract and tolerable and diverse society, than following the direct dictats of hadith.
Nearly all of the Islam theocracy is built on hadith. If you took out the hadith, the whole theocracy will crash. Which is what needs to happen for Islam to progress. The Quran, as someone stated, does not even tell you the exact way to say your prayers, or perform hajj or pay alms etc. It contains very few direct orders. It leaves a lot to interpretation. And allows people to interpret it according to their times.
This is the whole point I am trying to get across to Urstruly and malik99. If you take a look at the regressive religious views that exist in Islam 49 out of 50 will be from hadith. And if you take a look at the progressive religious views, 49 out of 50 will be from the Quran. So for those who want to follow Islam, they would be much better off, considering hadith to be just an attempt by Bukhari et al to record history, by talking to some people. Who told him stories that were told to them by their grandparents. Who learnt it from their grandparents and so on.
If people do not want to follow Islam, or any other religion, they should move on and live their lives, as they prefer. Rather then getting unnecessary ulcers by ridiculing others. But for those who do want religion in their lives, specifically Islam, if they followed the Quran, it would result in a much more abstract and tolerable and diverse society, than following the direct dictats of hadith.
Nearly all of the Islam theocracy is built on hadith. If you took out the hadith, the whole theocracy will crash. Which is what needs to happen for Islam to progress. The Quran, as someone stated, does not even tell you the exact way to say your prayers, or perform hajj or pay alms etc. It contains very few direct orders. It leaves a lot to interpretation. And allows people to interpret it according to their times.
#137 Posted by teshah on January 22, 2005 10:47:50 pm
Romair, have you read the Hadees copied below: -
Sunnan Abudaud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
What do you think about the woman-rights allowed by Islam in the light of the above hadees?
Sunnan Abudaud
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
What do you think about the woman-rights allowed by Islam in the light of the above hadees?
#136 Posted by ZahraJ on January 22, 2005 9:22:49 pm
Last but not least, a progressive, independent and outgoing woman should stay 100 miles away from the south asian male breed. Wolves in sheep`s clothing - with religion and culture stitched(not sure if I have the right spelling) to their sleeves. Insecurity can create psychological and emotional disorders amongst men and then they become incapable of handling women with the above attributes. I wonder why women look into wolves and ignore cute rabbits. Just recently, I was hearing about women`s leanings towards cute rabbits. I did not hear the news in detail, as it was rush hour traffic, but it sounded so sweet.
#135 Posted by Urstruly on January 22, 2005 7:17:45 pm
Romair
Thank you for your reply. There are few follow up questions so that I could understand your method further. You wrote:
``Iread its translation``
So do I, but how do you ascertain that the translation is correct andthe translator hasn`t just made it up. Do you verify it. What makes you put your faith in a third person. May be he has his own agenda to mislead non-Arabs.
``I read the views on it of various different people, Muslims to non-Muslims. ``
How do you qualify a certain view as the correct one. Is it the view that fits your own ideas or is it that has refrences so that it most approriately represents the message. How do you judge that.
``I try to read about the social conditions and practices of that time, and then try to understand it.``
How do you assure yourself that the person who is writing about the social conditions of that time is not lying. May be he is just making up the whole deal.
It would help me a great deal to understand your method if you could explain ``The Elephant`` to me.
#134 Posted by Romair on January 22, 2005 7:05:33 pm
Malik99: ``romair - as for your contention that hadith should be put away because it was collated by people 150 years after the death of Prophet (saw), I am a bit perplexed``
It wasn`t 150 years. It was more than that. I am not saying you should simply discard them and burn the books. I am saying they should not be used for jurisprudence or activism. They should be considered purely for historical purposes, for writing history etc., i.e. you cannot go to a woman and say she is going to hell because Bukhari said so. But you can say that Bukhari wrote this down, and it was his opinion on things.
``Given that, it is surprising that Jews seem to be very robust in their faith and in kicking our butts by using the strength they derive from their religion``
I don`t know of any Jew who has kicked my butt. Or of anyone from another religion, who has. If they try I would kick them right back. And my own butt is the only butt I am concerned about (thats not counting Butt sahib who is our neighbor in Islamabad).
The Jews aren`t kicking the butt of Pakistan either, nor of Canada - the two countries I have an association with. So Jews aren`t a concern for me. They are only kicking Arab butt and American butt, and I am not too concerned about those two butts, other than on human rights issues. Arabs try to kick Pakistani butt, far more than Jews do. I oppose the US attack on Iraq, based on human rights issues. Not because of any love-loss for Iraq. Iraq has neve supported Pakistan on any major issue, mind you. Neither have the Palestinians. In fact, they have generally chosen to be pro-India. Saddam and Arafat were far closer to India than to Pakistan........
Having said that, Jews aren`t as successful as you may think. They are almost extinct.
The reason someone is successful has nothing to do with their religion. There are people of all faiths who have been successful at various times in history. It has more to do with leadership, hard work, making correct decisions, etc. All these factors are independent of religion.
``In fact, with your arguments, hamidm seems to be making more sense in that everything of the faith that has been passed down over thousands of years, and cannot be proved like Einstein`s theory of relativity, needs to be discarded.``
It brings us to the basic concept of existence of God or not. If one does not believe in God, then in a sense, this is actually correct. If one does believe in God, then it isn`t. I don`t believe in Islam or the Quran because I was born a Muslim. I believe in it because of all the systems I have seen and studied, Islam makes the most sense to me. And it gives me the most satisfaction.
In addition, there is far far more in the Quran that makes sense than doesn`t. There are also things in there that could not have been known in the 7th century. And no human being could have had that kind of a vision.
Having said that, if it does get proven that Quran is not authentic, then I would leave Islam. It would make no sense to stay in it. At the same time, all the people who keep denouncing religion(s) rarely offer anything better of their own. They have no answers.
If there is no God, then the world is a hell of an unfair place. Because some people are born poor, some die in accidents, some have diseases, and some like us have all the benefits. I cannot imagine all of this is just a lucky roll of the dice. If it is, then there isn`t much hope of the people who die in tsunamis and are killed by others. And none of athiests have been able to give me an answer for this........
``I will also discard the really old pictures of my ancestors, since it was my father, who was told by my grandfather that this was the picture of my great grandfather. Why should I believe that! ``
You can discard it or you can believe it. It depends on how much you trust your father. But that is your own personl decision. What you don`t have a right to do is to impose your decision on me. Or make laws, based on it. And force me to believe that that person is your great grandfather also, unless you can provide credible proof............
So if you, personally want to believe what Bukharis says about women to be true, then that is your opinio and you have a right to it. But you cannot impose that on women and legislate based on that.......
I don`t have all the answers. But I am sh//t scared of people like hamidm mian and the mullah brigade, who think they do have all the answers........
It wasn`t 150 years. It was more than that. I am not saying you should simply discard them and burn the books. I am saying they should not be used for jurisprudence or activism. They should be considered purely for historical purposes, for writing history etc., i.e. you cannot go to a woman and say she is going to hell because Bukhari said so. But you can say that Bukhari wrote this down, and it was his opinion on things.
``Given that, it is surprising that Jews seem to be very robust in their faith and in kicking our butts by using the strength they derive from their religion``
I don`t know of any Jew who has kicked my butt. Or of anyone from another religion, who has. If they try I would kick them right back. And my own butt is the only butt I am concerned about (thats not counting Butt sahib who is our neighbor in Islamabad).
The Jews aren`t kicking the butt of Pakistan either, nor of Canada - the two countries I have an association with. So Jews aren`t a concern for me. They are only kicking Arab butt and American butt, and I am not too concerned about those two butts, other than on human rights issues. Arabs try to kick Pakistani butt, far more than Jews do. I oppose the US attack on Iraq, based on human rights issues. Not because of any love-loss for Iraq. Iraq has neve supported Pakistan on any major issue, mind you. Neither have the Palestinians. In fact, they have generally chosen to be pro-India. Saddam and Arafat were far closer to India than to Pakistan........
Having said that, Jews aren`t as successful as you may think. They are almost extinct.
The reason someone is successful has nothing to do with their religion. There are people of all faiths who have been successful at various times in history. It has more to do with leadership, hard work, making correct decisions, etc. All these factors are independent of religion.
``In fact, with your arguments, hamidm seems to be making more sense in that everything of the faith that has been passed down over thousands of years, and cannot be proved like Einstein`s theory of relativity, needs to be discarded.``
It brings us to the basic concept of existence of God or not. If one does not believe in God, then in a sense, this is actually correct. If one does believe in God, then it isn`t. I don`t believe in Islam or the Quran because I was born a Muslim. I believe in it because of all the systems I have seen and studied, Islam makes the most sense to me. And it gives me the most satisfaction.
In addition, there is far far more in the Quran that makes sense than doesn`t. There are also things in there that could not have been known in the 7th century. And no human being could have had that kind of a vision.
Having said that, if it does get proven that Quran is not authentic, then I would leave Islam. It would make no sense to stay in it. At the same time, all the people who keep denouncing religion(s) rarely offer anything better of their own. They have no answers.
If there is no God, then the world is a hell of an unfair place. Because some people are born poor, some die in accidents, some have diseases, and some like us have all the benefits. I cannot imagine all of this is just a lucky roll of the dice. If it is, then there isn`t much hope of the people who die in tsunamis and are killed by others. And none of athiests have been able to give me an answer for this........
``I will also discard the really old pictures of my ancestors, since it was my father, who was told by my grandfather that this was the picture of my great grandfather. Why should I believe that! ``
You can discard it or you can believe it. It depends on how much you trust your father. But that is your own personl decision. What you don`t have a right to do is to impose your decision on me. Or make laws, based on it. And force me to believe that that person is your great grandfather also, unless you can provide credible proof............
So if you, personally want to believe what Bukharis says about women to be true, then that is your opinio and you have a right to it. But you cannot impose that on women and legislate based on that.......
I don`t have all the answers. But I am sh//t scared of people like hamidm mian and the mullah brigade, who think they do have all the answers........
#133 Posted by Romair on January 22, 2005 6:33:29 pm
Urstruly #124: ``I am convinced by Romair`s arguments, as I already wrote, and now I only wish to understand his method, by which he interprets Qura`n.``
Thank God. I hope I have successfully convinced you and malik99 on hadith. And more importantly on the fact that women aren`t going to be the majority in hell. Now how exactly do I interpret the Quran. I read its translation. I read the views on it of various different people, Muslims to non-Muslims. I try to read about the social conditions and practices of that time, and then try to understand it. After that, I keep my understanding to myself and don`t try to push it on others. If they ask me about something I tell them. If I disagree with something I debate my points of view with them........
Thank God. I hope I have successfully convinced you and malik99 on hadith. And more importantly on the fact that women aren`t going to be the majority in hell. Now how exactly do I interpret the Quran. I read its translation. I read the views on it of various different people, Muslims to non-Muslims. I try to read about the social conditions and practices of that time, and then try to understand it. After that, I keep my understanding to myself and don`t try to push it on others. If they ask me about something I tell them. If I disagree with something I debate my points of view with them........
#132 Posted by Romair on January 22, 2005 6:24:43 pm
hamidm #128: Why do people lose their temper so quickly. For a person who dishes it out all the time, you certainly can`t take much :-) You need to chill out, a bit. Or stop trying to go after others, if you cannot accept an odd jibe at yourself also.......
I was not discussing divorce with Urstruly and malik99. I was trying to convince them that women aren`t destined to hell. I should at least get a pat on the back for that. And I was just about to convince them, when you jumped in, unnecessarily, and ruined it all. Now they might be convinced again that women are going to hell...........
Let me know which part of my reply you do not agree with. I think it makes quite a bit of sense to argue issues with people in a language that they are willing to listen to. As I said you will not be concerned about the number of people the USA kills (you have described them as, ``vermin,`` I believe), but you will be concerned about a raise in beer tax. Hence one should point out raise in beer tax when talking to you. While Urstruly and malik99 will not be convinced on issues, unless it is discussed from an Islamic point of view. Do you disagree with this?
It is an argument used by Americans against the war also. They don`t point to the number of innocents on the other side that are killed, because no one in the USA is concerned about that. They only point to the number of US soldiers killed. Because that is what their audience is concerned about.
When you go to your clients, do you speak in a style that they understand, or do you stick with what you understand and prefer? Obviously it must be the former......
As for Musharraf, I still think he is a better option than Benazir and Nawaz Sharif. Unless you want the maulvis and Shariah bills back in power. Do remember, it was Benazir who created the Taliban and Nawaz Sharif who pushed the Shariah Bill. The few stocks I own in the Pakistan Stock Exchange have gone through the roof and the odd plot in Pakistan that I am part owner of is worth a small fortune now. While my house in San Jose and my stocks on Nasdaq weren`t worth a dime, when I had to sell them.........But that is a different debate........
I was not discussing divorce with Urstruly and malik99. I was trying to convince them that women aren`t destined to hell. I should at least get a pat on the back for that. And I was just about to convince them, when you jumped in, unnecessarily, and ruined it all. Now they might be convinced again that women are going to hell...........
Let me know which part of my reply you do not agree with. I think it makes quite a bit of sense to argue issues with people in a language that they are willing to listen to. As I said you will not be concerned about the number of people the USA kills (you have described them as, ``vermin,`` I believe), but you will be concerned about a raise in beer tax. Hence one should point out raise in beer tax when talking to you. While Urstruly and malik99 will not be convinced on issues, unless it is discussed from an Islamic point of view. Do you disagree with this?
It is an argument used by Americans against the war also. They don`t point to the number of innocents on the other side that are killed, because no one in the USA is concerned about that. They only point to the number of US soldiers killed. Because that is what their audience is concerned about.
When you go to your clients, do you speak in a style that they understand, or do you stick with what you understand and prefer? Obviously it must be the former......
As for Musharraf, I still think he is a better option than Benazir and Nawaz Sharif. Unless you want the maulvis and Shariah bills back in power. Do remember, it was Benazir who created the Taliban and Nawaz Sharif who pushed the Shariah Bill. The few stocks I own in the Pakistan Stock Exchange have gone through the roof and the odd plot in Pakistan that I am part owner of is worth a small fortune now. While my house in San Jose and my stocks on Nasdaq weren`t worth a dime, when I had to sell them.........But that is a different debate........
#131 Posted by ZahraJ on January 22, 2005 6:10:30 pm
The most condemnable thing about a traditional muslim male is his inherent hypocrisy. When it comes to a woman taking a stand for her life, he would come out with some holy verses to make her feel guilty. Most of these @#%^ may not have had a chance to open the holy book otherwise.
#130 Posted by echoboom on January 22, 2005 2:56:37 pm
DIVORCE IN THE QURAN
I seek refuge in GOD, from Satan the rejected
In the name of GOD, Most Gracious and Most Merciful
From a reading of the Quran we learn that God does not favour divorces and in fact encourages the continuation of marriage. God has imposed prohibitions on certain category in marriage. However for those who comes to know of these prohibitions afterwards are commanded not to break existing marriages - see 4:22-23.
Divorce must be resorted to only in exceptional circumstances. The laws relating to divorce together with the relevant verses from the Quran are given below:
Appoint an arbitrator
[4:35]
If a couple fears separation, you shall appoint an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family; if they decide to reconcile, GOD will help them get together. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.
Wait 4 months cooling off before divorce
[2:226-227]
Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful. If they go through with the divorce, then GOD is Hearer, Knower.
If the estranged couple chooses separation they must go through with it equitably. There must be two equitable witnesses witness the divorce before GOD
[65:2]
Once the interim is fulfilled, you may reconcile with them equitably, or go through with the separation equitably. You shall have two equitable witnesses witness the divorce before GOD. This is to enlighten those who believe in GOD and the Last Day. Anyone who reverences GOD, He will create an exit for him.
Divorced women to observe an interim period
[2:228]
The divorced women shall wait three menstruations (before marrying another man). It is not lawful for them to conceal what GOD creates in their wombs, if they believe in GOD and the Last Day. (In case of pregnancy,) the husband`s wishes shall supersede the wife`s wishes, if he wants to remarry her. The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably. Thus, the man`s wishes prevail (in case of pregnancy). GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[65:4-5]
As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him. This is GOD`s command that He sends down to you. Anyone who reverences GOD, He remits his sins, and rewards him generously.
Exception for observing interim period
[33:49]
O you who believe, if you married believing women, then divorced them before having intercourse with them, they do not owe you any waiting interim (before marrying another man). You shall compensate them equitably, and let them go amicably.
After the fulfilment of the interim the divorced women is free to do whatever she wants
Although the following verse is in context of widows, it appears to be applicable to a divorcees too.
You Shall Observe the Pre-Marriage Interims
[2:234]
Those who die and leave wives, their widows shall wait four months and ten days (before they remarry). Once they fulfill their interim, you commit no error by letting them do whatever righteous matters they wish to do. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
[2:235]
You commit no sin by announcing your engagement to the women, or keeping it secret. GOD knows that you will think about them. Do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to discuss. Do not consummate the marriage until their interim is fulfilled. You should know that GOD knows your innermost thoughts, and observe Him. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Clement.
Divorced women have to be provided for. This is probably one of the abused laws in the Quran. But God holds us responsible for our innermost thoughts. If one observes God’s laws then God makes it easy for him / her.
[65:7]
The rich husband shall provide support in accordance with his means, and the poor shall provide according to the means that GOD bestowed upon him. GOD does not impose on any soul more than He has given it. GOD will provide ease after difficulty.
Alimony For Widows and Divorcees
[2:240]
Those who die and leave wives, a will shall provide their wives with support for a year, provided they stay within the same household. If they leave, you commit no sin by letting them do whatever they wish, so long as righteousness is maintained. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[2:241]
The divorcees also shall be provided for, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.
Compensation when marriage is not consummated
Breaking the Engagement
[2:236]
You commit no error by divorcing the women before touching them, or before setting the dowry for them. In this case, you shall compensate them - the rich as he can afford and the poor as he can afford - an equitable compensation. This is a duty upon the righteous.
[2:237]
If you divorce them before touching them, but after you had set the dowry for them, the compensation shall be half the dowry, unless they voluntarily forfeit their rights, or the party responsible for causing the divorce chooses to forfeit the dowry. To forfeit is closer to righteousness. You shall maintain the amicable relations among you. GOD is Seer of everything you do.
Divorced women entitled to stay in the same house she stayed before divorce
Do Not Throw the Divorcees Out Onto the Streets
[2:231]
If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim (three menstruations), you shall allow them to live in the same home amicably, or let them leave amicably. Do not force them to stay against their will, as a revenge. Anyone who does this wrongs his own soul. Do not take GOD`s revelations in vain. Remember GOD`s blessings upon you, and that He sent down to you the scripture and wisdom to enlighten you. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is aware of all things.
[65:6]
You shall allow them to live in the same home in which they lived with you, and do not make life so miserable for them that they leave on their own. If they are pregnant, you shall spend on them until they give birth. If they nurse the infant, you shall pay them for this service. You shall maintain the amicable relations among you. If you disagree, you may hire another woman to nurse the child.
Divorce can be retracted twice: In other words, if the couple reconciles after the first divorce and wish to be husband and wife again, they can re-marry. This is allowed for two divorce only. If the couple divorces third time they have to observe God`s commandment in 2:230 (quoted below.) God makes it not-so-easy for the couple to divorce. This law serves as a deterrent for those who want a divorce for the third time and they would be very careful to take this step.
[2:229]
Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD`s law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD`s law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD`s laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD`s laws are the unjust.
[2:232]
If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim, do not prevent them from remarrying their husbands, if they reconcile amicably. This shall be heeded by those among you who believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is purer for you, and more righteous. GOD knows, while you do not know.
[2:230]
If he divorces her (for the third time), it is unlawful for him to remarry her, unless she marries another man, then he divorces her. The first husband can then remarry her, so long as they observe GOD`s laws. These are GOD`s laws; He explains them for people who know.
Also note the words ``It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her.`` in 2:229.
In case there is a baby during the interim: If during the observation of the interim period it is discovered that the divorced women is pregnant then as stated in 65:4 the interim ends upon giving birth. God has decreed the following law dealing with the infant:
[2:233]
Divorced mothers shall nurse their infants two full years, if the father so wishes. The father shall provide the mother`s food and clothing equitably. No one shall be burdened beyond his ability. No mother shall be harmed on account of her infant, nor shall the father be harmed because of his infant. (If the father dies), his inheritor shall assume these responsibilities. If the infant`s parents mutually agree to part, after due consultation, they commit no error by doing so. You commit no error by hiring nursing mothers, so long as you pay them equitably. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is Seer of everything you do.
Under what conditions can a woman divorce her husband.?
Whichever party chooses for divorce must obey the laws as aforesaid. Normally divorce is mutually decided by the couple. If the aforesaid laws are observed, there could be a situation where either of the spouse may not give their consent but if the arbitrators from both the families decide that divorce is the best solution for the estranged couple then they would, nevertheless go through divorce. The divorce laws are applicable to both man and woman (4:35 and 2:237 indicate this) except that there are certain additional laws which a divorced woman has to observe.
The following seem to be the only conditions where a believing women leaves her husband without observing the above laws. In fact, I think in this case even a formal divorce is not required under Quran. However if the law of the land requires a formal divorce then one must follow suit.
In Case of War
[60:10]
O you who believe, when believing women (abandon the enemy and) ask for asylum with you, you shall test them. GOD is fully aware of their belief. Once you establish that they are believers, you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are not lawful to remain married to them, nor shall the disbelievers be allowed to marry them. Give back the dowries that the disbelievers have paid. You commit no error by marrying them, so long as you pay them their due dowries. Do not keep disbelieving wives (if they wish to join the enemy). You may ask them for the dowry you had paid, and they may ask for what they paid. This is GOD`s rule; He rules among you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
May God bless and be with you
Salma Noor El-Deen.
I seek refuge in GOD, from Satan the rejected
In the name of GOD, Most Gracious and Most Merciful
From a reading of the Quran we learn that God does not favour divorces and in fact encourages the continuation of marriage. God has imposed prohibitions on certain category in marriage. However for those who comes to know of these prohibitions afterwards are commanded not to break existing marriages - see 4:22-23.
Divorce must be resorted to only in exceptional circumstances. The laws relating to divorce together with the relevant verses from the Quran are given below:
Appoint an arbitrator
[4:35]
If a couple fears separation, you shall appoint an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family; if they decide to reconcile, GOD will help them get together. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant.
Wait 4 months cooling off before divorce
[2:226-227]
Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful. If they go through with the divorce, then GOD is Hearer, Knower.
If the estranged couple chooses separation they must go through with it equitably. There must be two equitable witnesses witness the divorce before GOD
[65:2]
Once the interim is fulfilled, you may reconcile with them equitably, or go through with the separation equitably. You shall have two equitable witnesses witness the divorce before GOD. This is to enlighten those who believe in GOD and the Last Day. Anyone who reverences GOD, He will create an exit for him.
Divorced women to observe an interim period
[2:228]
The divorced women shall wait three menstruations (before marrying another man). It is not lawful for them to conceal what GOD creates in their wombs, if they believe in GOD and the Last Day. (In case of pregnancy,) the husband`s wishes shall supersede the wife`s wishes, if he wants to remarry her. The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably. Thus, the man`s wishes prevail (in case of pregnancy). GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[65:4-5]
As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him. This is GOD`s command that He sends down to you. Anyone who reverences GOD, He remits his sins, and rewards him generously.
Exception for observing interim period
[33:49]
O you who believe, if you married believing women, then divorced them before having intercourse with them, they do not owe you any waiting interim (before marrying another man). You shall compensate them equitably, and let them go amicably.
After the fulfilment of the interim the divorced women is free to do whatever she wants
Although the following verse is in context of widows, it appears to be applicable to a divorcees too.
You Shall Observe the Pre-Marriage Interims
[2:234]
Those who die and leave wives, their widows shall wait four months and ten days (before they remarry). Once they fulfill their interim, you commit no error by letting them do whatever righteous matters they wish to do. GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
[2:235]
You commit no sin by announcing your engagement to the women, or keeping it secret. GOD knows that you will think about them. Do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to discuss. Do not consummate the marriage until their interim is fulfilled. You should know that GOD knows your innermost thoughts, and observe Him. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Clement.
Divorced women have to be provided for. This is probably one of the abused laws in the Quran. But God holds us responsible for our innermost thoughts. If one observes God’s laws then God makes it easy for him / her.
[65:7]
The rich husband shall provide support in accordance with his means, and the poor shall provide according to the means that GOD bestowed upon him. GOD does not impose on any soul more than He has given it. GOD will provide ease after difficulty.
Alimony For Widows and Divorcees
[2:240]
Those who die and leave wives, a will shall provide their wives with support for a year, provided they stay within the same household. If they leave, you commit no sin by letting them do whatever they wish, so long as righteousness is maintained. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[2:241]
The divorcees also shall be provided for, equitably. This is a duty upon the righteous.
Compensation when marriage is not consummated
Breaking the Engagement
[2:236]
You commit no error by divorcing the women before touching them, or before setting the dowry for them. In this case, you shall compensate them - the rich as he can afford and the poor as he can afford - an equitable compensation. This is a duty upon the righteous.
[2:237]
If you divorce them before touching them, but after you had set the dowry for them, the compensation shall be half the dowry, unless they voluntarily forfeit their rights, or the party responsible for causing the divorce chooses to forfeit the dowry. To forfeit is closer to righteousness. You shall maintain the amicable relations among you. GOD is Seer of everything you do.
Divorced women entitled to stay in the same house she stayed before divorce
Do Not Throw the Divorcees Out Onto the Streets
[2:231]
If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim (three menstruations), you shall allow them to live in the same home amicably, or let them leave amicably. Do not force them to stay against their will, as a revenge. Anyone who does this wrongs his own soul. Do not take GOD`s revelations in vain. Remember GOD`s blessings upon you, and that He sent down to you the scripture and wisdom to enlighten you. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is aware of all things.
[65:6]
You shall allow them to live in the same home in which they lived with you, and do not make life so miserable for them that they leave on their own. If they are pregnant, you shall spend on them until they give birth. If they nurse the infant, you shall pay them for this service. You shall maintain the amicable relations among you. If you disagree, you may hire another woman to nurse the child.
Divorce can be retracted twice: In other words, if the couple reconciles after the first divorce and wish to be husband and wife again, they can re-marry. This is allowed for two divorce only. If the couple divorces third time they have to observe God`s commandment in 2:230 (quoted below.) God makes it not-so-easy for the couple to divorce. This law serves as a deterrent for those who want a divorce for the third time and they would be very careful to take this step.
[2:229]
Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD`s law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD`s law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD`s laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD`s laws are the unjust.
[2:232]
If you divorce the women, once they fulfill their interim, do not prevent them from remarrying their husbands, if they reconcile amicably. This shall be heeded by those among you who believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is purer for you, and more righteous. GOD knows, while you do not know.
[2:230]
If he divorces her (for the third time), it is unlawful for him to remarry her, unless she marries another man, then he divorces her. The first husband can then remarry her, so long as they observe GOD`s laws. These are GOD`s laws; He explains them for people who know.
Also note the words ``It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her.`` in 2:229.
In case there is a baby during the interim: If during the observation of the interim period it is discovered that the divorced women is pregnant then as stated in 65:4 the interim ends upon giving birth. God has decreed the following law dealing with the infant:
[2:233]
Divorced mothers shall nurse their infants two full years, if the father so wishes. The father shall provide the mother`s food and clothing equitably. No one shall be burdened beyond his ability. No mother shall be harmed on account of her infant, nor shall the father be harmed because of his infant. (If the father dies), his inheritor shall assume these responsibilities. If the infant`s parents mutually agree to part, after due consultation, they commit no error by doing so. You commit no error by hiring nursing mothers, so long as you pay them equitably. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is Seer of everything you do.
Under what conditions can a woman divorce her husband.?
Whichever party chooses for divorce must obey the laws as aforesaid. Normally divorce is mutually decided by the couple. If the aforesaid laws are observed, there could be a situation where either of the spouse may not give their consent but if the arbitrators from both the families decide that divorce is the best solution for the estranged couple then they would, nevertheless go through divorce. The divorce laws are applicable to both man and woman (4:35 and 2:237 indicate this) except that there are certain additional laws which a divorced woman has to observe.
The following seem to be the only conditions where a believing women leaves her husband without observing the above laws. In fact, I think in this case even a formal divorce is not required under Quran. However if the law of the land requires a formal divorce then one must follow suit.
In Case of War
[60:10]
O you who believe, when believing women (abandon the enemy and) ask for asylum with you, you shall test them. GOD is fully aware of their belief. Once you establish that they are believers, you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are not lawful to remain married to them, nor shall the disbelievers be allowed to marry them. Give back the dowries that the disbelievers have paid. You commit no error by marrying them, so long as you pay them their due dowries. Do not keep disbelieving wives (if they wish to join the enemy). You may ask them for the dowry you had paid, and they may ask for what they paid. This is GOD`s rule; He rules among you. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
May God bless and be with you
Salma Noor El-Deen.
#129 Posted by malik99 on January 22, 2005 1:44:41 pm
romair # 117 - you write ``What would, (or may), work, would be to show you how the USA`s attacks would raise your taxes due to the large spending spree they require.``
I am disappointed that you did not give me the due credit on this one. I understood this thing long time ago, while you and others were trying to convince hamidm with long winded arguments.
I have been shouting at the top of my lungs ever since I have been arguing with hamidm that he is a tax-cut whore. As long as he is depositing his tax cuts in banks and his kids are not served a draft, he is A-Ok with any invasion - including that of Canada.
I am disappointed that you did not give me the due credit on this one. I understood this thing long time ago, while you and others were trying to convince hamidm with long winded arguments.
I have been shouting at the top of my lungs ever since I have been arguing with hamidm that he is a tax-cut whore. As long as he is depositing his tax cuts in banks and his kids are not served a draft, he is A-Ok with any invasion - including that of Canada.
#128 Posted by malik99 on January 22, 2005 1:44:41 pm
romair - as for your contention that hadith should be put away because it was collated by people 150 years after the death of Prophet (saw), I am a bit perplexed for following reasons:
That really makes the Jews and Christians, our current masters, look very stupid. After all, they put their books together hundreds and thousands of years later (as opposed to 150 years later by muslims), by using the word of mouth that was transferred down the generations. Given that, it is surprising that Jews seem to be very robust in their faith and in kicking our butts by using the strength they derive from their religion (or is it because they have moved on from this ``re-inventing the wheel`` debate that we muslims have the habit of getting into, again and again and again?)
Confuscianism is obsolete as well. I never liked it anyways - too mushy.
If I am not mistaken, even Quran was not collated in its current form, under the supervision of Usman (raw) until 15 years after the death of Prophet (saw). So I am a bit surprised that you are putting your faith in Usman (raw).
In fact, with your arguments, hamidm seems to be making more sense in that everything of the faith that has been passed down over thousands of years, and cannot be proved like Einstein`s theory of relativity, needs to be discarded.
You have single handedly ushered in a new world for me. I will also discard the really old pictures of my ancestors, since it was my father, who was told by my grandfather that this was the picture of my great grandfather. Why should I believe that!
That really makes the Jews and Christians, our current masters, look very stupid. After all, they put their books together hundreds and thousands of years later (as opposed to 150 years later by muslims), by using the word of mouth that was transferred down the generations. Given that, it is surprising that Jews seem to be very robust in their faith and in kicking our butts by using the strength they derive from their religion (or is it because they have moved on from this ``re-inventing the wheel`` debate that we muslims have the habit of getting into, again and again and again?)
Confuscianism is obsolete as well. I never liked it anyways - too mushy.
If I am not mistaken, even Quran was not collated in its current form, under the supervision of Usman (raw) until 15 years after the death of Prophet (saw). So I am a bit surprised that you are putting your faith in Usman (raw).
In fact, with your arguments, hamidm seems to be making more sense in that everything of the faith that has been passed down over thousands of years, and cannot be proved like Einstein`s theory of relativity, needs to be discarded.
You have single handedly ushered in a new world for me. I will also discard the really old pictures of my ancestors, since it was my father, who was told by my grandfather that this was the picture of my great grandfather. Why should I believe that!
#127 Posted by baal on January 22, 2005 1:44:41 pm
About what?
I speak, dragon converts to text.
If about ``aithor finding conjugal bliss`` - Yes! It`s part of the growth. We create (choose) by our vasanas our parents, spouse and even children. Some get the ``right understanding`` by reaching the dead end in existential plain, others take the Uturn by cultivating habit of observing their own motivation. This might be called by different terms - yoga, vipassana, meditation, zen etc. I am sure there must be something in sufi or islamic verbage as well
I speak, dragon converts to text.
If about ``aithor finding conjugal bliss`` - Yes! It`s part of the growth. We create (choose) by our vasanas our parents, spouse and even children. Some get the ``right understanding`` by reaching the dead end in existential plain, others take the Uturn by cultivating habit of observing their own motivation. This might be called by different terms - yoga, vipassana, meditation, zen etc. I am sure there must be something in sufi or islamic verbage as well
#126 Posted by hamidm2 on January 22, 2005 1:44:41 pm
captain clueless,
........ remember when you almost had me convinced me that musharraf was pakistan`s saviour ?........ in the typical fauji style you continue to speak with great authority on subjects that you obviously know little about and continue to make a fool out of yourself ..........
....... captain, the tendency of muslims like you and urstruly to discuss anything and everything based on what is written in the koran or hadith is at the root of the problems facing the ummah .......... as long as you continue to do it, you will end up at the same place - ankle deep in a pile of seventh century camel manure .........
............. divorce is a very personal issue that afflicts people all over the world and god or his son or last protege cannot do much about it ............i know you will say, ``but there are christians who go to their priests for counselling``....... i never said there arn`t any idiots of other faiths, even though the muslims seem to have a monoply on idiocy nowadays .............. the fact of the matter is that the very institution of marriage has changed with the invention of the pill and financial opportunities for women - the laws written on tablets, scrolls and parchments are not relevant any longer ............ women don`t have to put up with crap from men any more, and the sooner you mullah types get used to it the better off you will be ............ forget the koran and hadith - if you want to hang on to your woman go out and loose a few pounds, get a prescription for viagra, lock up your mother in the basement next time she comes over, don`t forget that feb 14 is coming up and, for god`s sake, do something about that hair in your ears ............ you will not find such good advice in the koran - i seriously doubt it contains any reference to saint valentine ............
........ remember when you almost had me convinced me that musharraf was pakistan`s saviour ?........ in the typical fauji style you continue to speak with great authority on subjects that you obviously know little about and continue to make a fool out of yourself ..........
....... captain, the tendency of muslims like you and urstruly to discuss anything and everything based on what is written in the koran or hadith is at the root of the problems facing the ummah .......... as long as you continue to do it, you will end up at the same place - ankle deep in a pile of seventh century camel manure .........
............. divorce is a very personal issue that afflicts people all over the world and god or his son or last protege cannot do much about it ............i know you will say, ``but there are christians who go to their priests for counselling``....... i never said there arn`t any idiots of other faiths, even though the muslims seem to have a monoply on idiocy nowadays .............. the fact of the matter is that the very institution of marriage has changed with the invention of the pill and financial opportunities for women - the laws written on tablets, scrolls and parchments are not relevant any longer ............ women don`t have to put up with crap from men any more, and the sooner you mullah types get used to it the better off you will be ............ forget the koran and hadith - if you want to hang on to your woman go out and loose a few pounds, get a prescription for viagra, lock up your mother in the basement next time she comes over, don`t forget that feb 14 is coming up and, for god`s sake, do something about that hair in your ears ............ you will not find such good advice in the koran - i seriously doubt it contains any reference to saint valentine ............
#125 Posted by echoboom on January 22, 2005 1:44:41 pm
It seems to me that a strong argument, by some, is being made here to study only and only the original manuscript ( the parchment) of say Einstein or Newton.
Whatever has been quoted by them, or about them by other researchers , must be destroyed forthwith. I have always maintained that any scholarship which carries footnotes giving
references, ibids, etals and idems must be viewed with suspicion.
Same holds true for precedents, traditional practice, `common` law and `amendments`` violating the original by the `fathers of the confederation`.
``Ikko ALF menoo Darkaar``
bakee saraa zikr azkaar.
and now back to bhanGrra, ballet, and beer ..the litmus test for having ``arrived``.
``In Divorce is thy salvation--hasten it!``
``Spinster is not a bad word``
``There is more beauty in this world --than a baby``
Whatever has been quoted by them, or about them by other researchers , must be destroyed forthwith. I have always maintained that any scholarship which carries footnotes giving
references, ibids, etals and idems must be viewed with suspicion.
Same holds true for precedents, traditional practice, `common` law and `amendments`` violating the original by the `fathers of the confederation`.
``Ikko ALF menoo Darkaar``
bakee saraa zikr azkaar.
and now back to bhanGrra, ballet, and beer ..the litmus test for having ``arrived``.
``In Divorce is thy salvation--hasten it!``
``Spinster is not a bad word``
``There is more beauty in this world --than a baby``
#124 Posted by Urstruly on January 22, 2005 12:04:44 pm
Shore # 120
I am convinced by Romair`s arguments, as I already wrote, and now I only wish to understand his method, by which he interprets Qura`n. I don`t think it should take much to interpret those 5 lines. What`s your take on it.
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