The “D” Word

Re: # 212 SR

But hope is what keeps us going!!!
Thankyou for your kind words.
I have learned a lot from life and i do believe if you trust and believe in yourself there is always a reward. Truthfully, I am thankful to my parents and my family who have supported my decision and loved me . I could not have done it without thier support. My biggest strength is my cute 7yr old daughter and I wonder how can such a little package give me so much strength.
The rest of the Pakistani people here in my community are beyond my understanding. What is wrong with them?

Obviously, when a man is almost 24x7 on Chowk then his wife will have to take some serious measures.

``I think you are missing the point. The context in which virginity seems to become an issue is when the boy/girl in question is single (never married). Not when they are divorced / widowed.

A person (boy or girl) who has slept around to his/her hearts content before marriage, WILL have an impact on what kind of wife/husband, mother/father he/she will turn out to be. I am not saying that he/she will turn out to be a bad parent necessarily. But it will reflect in the upbringing he/she will impart to children.`` Malik99

Malik Sahib, Please read your own words, and reflect!

shoresahib # 230 - Did you even read my post # 227?

Your post reflects your personal opinions about virginity / nonvirginity, which is perfectly fine for you to share. However, I never even alluded to the things that you have ``responded`` to. I did not even comment on the character or the ``value as a human being`` of a sexually promiscuous person. How can you ``respond`` to something I never said?

Now let me get even. So shoresahib, now that you have rationalized why you like the idea of having more than one wife, how would you make sure that you protect their rights equally?

You see my point??

ShoreSahib Sahib #228:“How is the analogy valid between gay marriage and marriage between siblings.....Marriage between siblings is incestous and abhorrent to the sensibilites of both South Asian and western societies be they secular or religious. American Psychiatric Association classfies homosexuality as normal human behavior whereas incest is considered sexual deviation.``

There was a time when marriage between blacks and whites was also considered abhorrent to the sensibilities of Western societies. I am sure the American Psychiatratic Association considered it deviant also, back then. Even now, gay marriage is considered abhorrent to the sensibilities of, “societies be they secular or religious.” Every single public vote supporting gay marriage, in any US state, has always lost. It is only the judiciary in places like Massachussetts, which has brought it in.

Gay marriage and marriage between brothers and sister (or brothers and brothers, for that matter) are considered equally taboo in societies like Pakistan. Marriages between first cousins are considered taboo in the USA. In fact, 24 out of the 50 Unites States actually prohibit cousin marriages (though it is legal in Europe and Canada). Interestingly 20% of the marriages in the rest of the world are between cousins. Making it the most common form of marriage (in comparison to marriage with neighbors, co-workers etc.). Thus, every society has its own taboos and its own Psychiatric Associations norms.

If you use this statistic, a high portion of Pakistani interactors on this site, who live in the USA, are probably married to first cousins. And may be living in a US State where such a marriage in prohibited. And, thus by US social and legal standards are, already, in an incestual relationship.

I hope you get the point.

The point being that the whole purpose of Secularism was get the State away from deciding strictly, on the basis of social sensibilities (most of which were based on religion; specifically whom one can marry or not). The social (and legal) sensibility of what constitutes a marriage in the USA is, however, still based on a Christian concept of male and female, i.e. Church has not separted from the State.

Secularism demands that the State move away from this religious definition of marriage (regardless of what the religious groups or any Psychiatric society state). This is separation of Church and State, i.e. even though gay marriage is considered socially unacceptable (according to all surveys in the USA), the State still has to accept it, as long as it is between consenting adults, because the State has to treat all adults as the same, regardless of religious beliefs. The same legal premise is being used by polygamists in Utah to present their case for allowing polygamous marriage in the USA. And the same logic can and will be used by anyone trying to get into any kind of marital union…….And under separation of Church and State it has to be accepted, as long as it is with consent of all parties involved.

For many people, gay marriage is as abhorrent as incestual marriage. For many people first-cousin marriage is incestual (like marriage between brothers and sisters)………For many people, the State declaring Ahmedis to be Muslims is abhorrent. If one is going to push Secularism, one cannot become religious half-way through it, based on one’s one definition of what is abhorrent. Getting rid of that condition was the main purpose of introducing Secularism………

Re: # 227
I dont think I am missing the point at all. Rather, I think the point has totally alluded you.
One can be not a virgin even if they have had sex once or a hundred times. Is it any of my business to know whether a particular person has had sex before once or many times. Maybe if a girl isnt a virgin, is because she was sexually molested as a child, or was raped, or chose to have sex upon her own volition. With men, there is no way of knowing whether they are virgins or not.
Tell me this, How does having consentual sex before marriage depreciate a person`s character. How does it effect their personality and future roles as spouses, parents or lovers negatively.
How do you if someone has slept around to his/her`s hearts content? Did they tell you personally, or were you a witness to their every sexual encounter, or did you just believe rumors.
Even if a person slept around to his/her`s heart`s content, How does that make them any less of a person. Are they any less valuable as humanbeings simply because how they choose to conduct their personal sexual lives.
What kind of upbringing does a promiscous person impart to his/her future children.
If I would have children, I would not tell them not to have sex, or that sex is not fun. Because that would be a lie. I would rather get them sex education classes, and trust my children to make informed decisions whether to have sex or not.
Who am I to judge someone on their sexual life.
Virginity should never become an issue no matter what the context. It is usually an issue for women as there is no way to prove male virginity or lack thereof. I think if women choose abstinence before marriage, it is their choice. If they choose to have sex before marriage it is their choice and right, and does not decrease their value whatsoever.
Though I do believe that subjecting women to this ridiculous and medieval expectation of virginity before marriage dehumanizes them.

#226 Romair
You`re too much of a poet - ``Breathing down .. throats?`` Gives a completely different picture from the one you probably mean to convey.

Re: # 219
How is the analogy valid between gay marriage and marriage between siblings.
Marriage between siblings is incestous and abhorrent to the sensibilites of both South Asian and western societies be they secular or religious. American Psychiatric Association classfies homosexuality as normal human behavior whereas incest is considered sexual deviation.

shore sahib # 225 - you write ``What does being a virgin have to do what kind of wife or mother a woman will be?``

I think you are missing the point. The context in which virginity seems to become an issue is when the boy/girl in question is single (never married). Not when they are divorced / widowed.

A person (boy or girl) who has slept around to his/her hearts content before marriage, WILL have an impact on what kind of wife/husband, mother/father he/she will turn out to be. I am not saying that he/she will turn out to be a bad parent necessarily. But it will reflect in the upbringing he/she will impart to children.

SR #221: ``Dear Romair sahib, I have not taken you up on many of your earlier contradictory points out of courtesy and consideration because you already had your hands full with two open fronts (urstruly and hamidm). However, this one I can not let pass.``

Please feel free to engage me, anytime you wish. Even with hamidm and Urstruly breathing down my throats (with me trying to breath down theirs). I think I am pretty good at multi-tasking, and I tend to enjoy a good debate.......

``You have huge contradiction here.....It appears from the above quoted statement that in the Romair household what is good for the goose is evidently not good enough for the gander.....You won`t hit and she won`t cheat. That seems to be the unwritten covenant. However, the reverse is obviously not true.``

I am not sure how you have concluded that the reverse is, ``obviously`` not true. When the reverse was never commented upon. The reverse is actually true. Why wouldn`t it be? The comment of her hitting me, was more in jest than anything else. It was a flying orange, or grapefruit or tangerine (I don`t recall the exact citrus), that I never saw coming and struck me in the head..........

The reason hitting and cheating were presented was becasue, traditionally, in our societies, these are considered the biggest taboos or fears from the female and male side, respectivley. Men keep their radar out for their wife cheating on them, before they are worried about being hit. Women keep a radar out for being hit, before their radar for cheating comes out.

So, as much as I find Saminashah`s idea of the Iranian mut`aa marriage interesting. I have no interest in indulging in it. And just like everyone else, I have had plenty of opportunities.......

Re:209 Saminasha regarding Mutaa
Sigh
Very very sad. Poor girl, I feel so bad for her. Muslim Men`s insistence on marrying virgins. I dont get it. What is the compulsion for getting married to virgins? What does being a virgin have to do what kind of wife or mother a woman will be?
Or is it that the men are very insecure sexually, that they feel that a non virgin woman will compare them to her previous experiences.
Or do they want to live through the experience of deflowering a virgin
Or do they want to live up to society`s expectation
But I still dont get it. None of these reasons are valid.
Muslims are always harping about following the Prophet`s Sunnah..
Last time I checked wasnt his first wife a divorcee and 15 years older than him.
Follow that Sunnah, O Momineen.
Lord Have Mercy.

romair - one of the basic premise of a good debate is to not put words in other`s mouth. i never said Bukhari was a prophet. that would be contradicting quran, wouldn`t it? but yes, i trust (with some what skeptical eye) the hadiths and the teachings of Prophet (saw) as put forward by bukhari and others. that is not any ``addition`` to quran. that is merely an ``explanation`` of quran.

i believe that Prophet (saw) wouldn`t do anything which contradicted the teachings of Quran. therefore, i ask for references when someone quotes a hadith that seems to me a bit out of place. and if you remember, that was what started this whole debate - I asked urstruly to provide reference to support his post where he stated that no one will go to jannah until he/she has been approved by husband / mother.

therefore, i would request that you do not close your mind. as long as you keep ``my glass is full`` mentality, you would close yourself to new ideas. the fact that you seem to be preaching the virtues of arranged marriage proves my point. even prophet (saw)`s first marriage was a love marriage. or would you not believe it since its not mentioned in quran?

SR, hehe, this is like cross-examination.

#222 amit, I had a indian punjabi colleague who was severely physically abused by his wife. At least he told me he was at those times when he begged me to let him sleep in my apartment.

Re:SR#221

Whoa, looks like Pakistani women are a lot more fiesty than I had ever imagined. First SR and now Romair are admitting that they were hit by their spouses. We Indians had this notion that Pakistani women were all wilting lillies who were dominated by their ghairatmand macho husbands :-). I have never heard any Indian guy complaining about being hit by their women.

Re: # 220 [``...marriage is based on trust. ... my wife has faith... that I will never hit her. ..she has hit me, ... I haven`t. ...I have full faith that she will never cheat on me... I could have hit her ... she could have cheated on me. But it never happened. ... I don`t remember us setting any pacts...``]

Dear Romair sahib, I have not taken you up on many of your earlier contradictory points out of courtesy and consideration because you already had your hands full with two open fronts (urstruly and hamidm). However, this one I can not let pass.

You have huge contradiction here. Your statement demonstrably betrays double standards. It appears from the above quoted statement that in the Romair household what is good for the goose is evidently not good enough for the gander.

You won`t hit and she won`t cheat. That seems to be the unwritten covenant. However, the reverse is obviously not true. She has hit you, and that was okay. So does it follow that the cheating provision only applies to her but not to you?

...SR

I don`t think it is a good idea for either the husband or the wife to lay down any kind of, ``restrictions`` when they get married. The only one I believe in is the mehram (enforced Islamic pre-nup for Muslim women), which a woman should be allowed to set to any limit she wants, and should be paid out by the guy, if they end up being divorced.

Other than that, I cannot imagine telling my wife, before she got married, that she must do, ``this and this,`` otherwise I would not marry her. That would be ridiculously selfish (and naive). ``You must make the chappati perfectly round, every time, otherwise I will leave you.``

Friendship, companionship and love does not grow from setting pre-marriage restrictions on the other person (man or woman). It is nothing more than a sign of insecurity and a sign that the person is not ready for marriage, because he/she is scared. If a person is nice, they will treat their spouses nicely. If the person is not nice, no amount of pre-marital sign-ups will force that person into good behavior. It a person does not yell at the other person for 36 years, they are just a nice person (not because they made a pact before marriage).

A good marriage is based on trust. For example, my wife has faith in me that I will never hit her. It doesn`t matter what the hell happens, we may yell and scream and go spend the night in different rooms, but I will never hit her. Infact, she has hit me, though I haven`t. Similarly, I have full faith that she will never cheat on me, regardless of what the situation. There have been plenty of situations where I could have hit her and where she could have cheated on me. But it never happened. And I don`t remember us setting any pacts before marriage.

P.S. Anyone going into a marriage assuming they will leave the other person (man or woman) if he/she yells at them, is, in 99.99999% of the cases, setting themselves up for a big disappointment........It may be possible, but the odds are heavily stacked against it.......More than likely they will end up divorced if they enforce this pact.

Hamidm #216: ``romair,

.......... you have a lot to learn about gays and lesbians - you might be surprised one of these days ......... ``

Actually, I know quite a bit about them. And yes, I might be surprised on these days, if my kid tells me he/she is gay. I am not sure what I would do. And I am stating, in a straight-forward manner that I oppose gay marriage. Which is why I cannot declare myself to be a secularist.

What I do criticize are the hypocrite secularists, who are unwilling to accept gay marriage, yet keep trying to push separation of church and state onto everyone. When it comes to gays, they immediately become religious. And say that separation of Church and State does not apply to them. They only want the Church separated from State, as much as they desire.

What is even worse is that the gay rights groups, themselves, do the same thing. I have followed their debates on this issue. They obviously support gay marriage and specifically use the separation of Church and State, i.e. secularism as their basic argument. Which is fine and correct, under the definition of secularism. However, when they are asked if they support consentual polygamy, polyandry and incest, under the same argument of secularism, they say, No. They also only separate Church and State as far as their beliefs allow them.

The current concept of marriage is a religious concept. If we want to separate it from the State, to enforce secularism, then one cannot stop halfway. However, if everyone is going to stop halfway (including gays, themselves) then what is wrong with stopping where it currently stands, i.e. marriage between man and woman.............

I am not sure where one draws the line. What if, tomorrow, a girl came out of the closet and said she is in love with her brother. What should the father do? Encourage it or discourage it? Would he be a bigot if he discouraged it? If not, then why is he a bigot if he discourages gay-ness? Do keep in mind that it is taboo in the USA to marry cousins, yet it is common in Pakistan.......The same guy is a bigot in USA for discouraging it and an matchmaker in Pakistan for encouraging it......

As long as one applies one standard principle, I am fine with it. Either encourage everything or let people draw boundaries of discouragement as and where they see fit. This, of course, does not mean that one should be bigoted against anyone who is gay. But then, one should not be a bigot against anyone whose name is Abdul and has a long beard, either......

# 207: ditto. Excellent Point!

Sorry to disappoint those who heaved a sigh of relief and mumbled ``good riddance`` after skimming through the # 195 on Romance 101. I am sure some got jealous by the nice guy in the picture. That must be a natural wolf-ish reaction. I am positive that the rabbits would have taken it in a different stride.

With due respect to the readers, I have to revisit my previous post and update it. My conscience would NOT have spared me otherwise ...

[My wife told me that if I ever spoke to her in a harsh tone or loud manner or yelled at her then that would be the last day of our marriage.]

In addition to the above, my colleague`s wife had also put some boundary conditions around ``raising his voice on his wife``. It was unacceptable to the woman. I liked the fact that she had put her conditions and agendas on the table. If the other person was compliant or promised to stay compliant then that was well and good. Otherwise, he could go to hell and she`d have cared less.

That is so damn sweet!

I respected her forthright attitude. And they say, ``As you sow, so shall you reap``. By the way, I had to quote her verbatim for my own piece of mind. I like and respect those amongst my gender who put their foot down and dictate their own terms in life.

``If you cannot bring up and follow your own terms (that are imp to you ) in life, then you do not have the right to expect anything from anyone.`` Zahra`s P-O-W

I am sure the wolves, fascists, and zealots would love to dissect my cute pearl of wisdom.

Be my guest!

Who cares?

romair,

.......... you have a lot to learn about gays and lesbians - you might be surprised one of these days ......... in the last two years three kids i have know since they were in sixth grade came out of the closet during their last years of high school and many adults, including the headmaster and their parents, just didn`t know how to handle it ........... it was not pretty and certainly not funny ......... my heart goes out to the kids and i think their parents, specially the fathers, acted like a bunch of bigoted morons .........

malik99 #182: ``romair sahib, that is bound to happen when one meets a person who has the PERFECT understanding of a religion. so yeah, pleased to meet you.

but unfortunately, the way you floated about and separated ``interpretations`` of Quran and life and teachings of Prophet (saw), it almost comes out that Islam is whatever you want it to be - depending on how one interprets. You pick what you like from ``Islam``. You leave what you dislike. Context does not matter.``

I am never suprised how quickly the same mullahs run away from the Quran, when one argues based on it.

Let me ask you a simple question: Do you think, the Quran, as a book is complete, and that Islam is complete with it? Or would Islam not be complete until Bukhari came around and wrote his book? Had Bukhari not authored his book, would Islam have been incomplete? Was it incomplete in the 200 years in between the death of Muhammad and the publishing of Bukhari`s book?

You are trying to pull at straws. Instead of disproving my point, you have started accusing me of things. As I mentioned at the start of this discussion, this is what invariably happens. The final step always involves Qadianis, for some reason. And then eventually being declared non-Muslim.

I have neither re-interpreted anything, nor have I provided any information on any pillars. I never said one should separate anything. The Quran descibes exactly as much as was required by God, and is a book form of the Sunnah. I am thus not the one doing the separation. You are. You are separating it into a book of Hadith (written by a human being).

All I said was one should not start accepting ideas, about what Muhammad did or said, from people who wrote a book 200 years later, based solely on oral traditions, which they, themselves, cannot proved to be valid. One should not give Bukhari the status of a Prophet.

The Quran declares Islam to be complete with the Quran. After that, one can interpret the Quran as much as one wants. But you cannot allow people to start adding to it, through books that have no basis nor proof.

You have not been able to challenge this argument. Nor have you been able to prove to me how the hadith in Bukhari`s books are valid. How anything orally passed over 200 years can be considered valid?

So if you want to prove my argument wrong, you have to provide some logic in disproving it. I am arguing within the boundaries of the Quran, itself. If you cannot disprove my argument, then you have to accept it. Or remain in a state of denial, knowing fully well that what I am saying makes sense, yet you are still unwilling to let go of your illogical stance, because that is what you were taught since childhood to believe. And you never bothered to search it furthur. You were told Bukhari is the law, without even knowing how he wrote his book.

Do one or the other. Either accept what I stated or prove me wrong. Accusing me of things is worthless...........

Regarding #195 … more I think about it … more I want to comment …

The jewish man with 36 years of marriage is probably an alright fella … but I don’t believe he never spoke harshly to his wife. Probability of this is about the same as finding one of the ten soul mates … out of 3 billion … in Sunday classifieds. The dude is certainly exaggerating or may be he has not seen with his wife in 36 years.

But I see deeper issues here. If a spouse sets conditions, whereby one episode of yelling means an end to marriage … holy mother of christ … red flags should go up in a person’s mind. Such an ultimatum is degrading in itself, as it no longer allows one to err without punishing him too harshly. It trivializes marriage, as well as a divorce. I think the woman actually needed therapy.

Consequently, I don’t see how a self-respecting man would agree to such a principle. That is not to say that he should yell at his wife … but that spouses should be allowed to yell at each other … without fearing that it would end their marriage. At times people get carried away and get nasty … but they should be allowed to learn from their mistakes. Spouses need to make allowances for each other … after all, they are each other’s friends and confidants. Sticking to such rigid, harsh criterion can only damage a marriage, and not do it any good.

Saminashah #204: ``Romair......gay marriages for women?

I have a feeling you were being facetious-but I am not. If a woman is gay and both she and her partner want to be married, why not indeed?``

I may have just come up with the solution that solves all the problem. Infact I have come up with an even better one. Arranged gay marriages.

I think if this idea caught in Pakistan and was socially acceptable, it would become very popular; specifically amongst girls. Killing two or three birds with one stone. You got the desrie of marriage fulfilled. You get the parents say in it, so they are happy. You get not one, but two, wedding dresses. And your spouse doesn`t have much of a chance to hit you. Because you can hit her back. And you get the lifetime companionship..........

As I said, I support gay marriage, as long as my own close relatives aren`t involved. You seem to support it outright. I find that a bit hard to belive. Suppose tomorrow your daughter comes in and tells you she is not going to the prom with Rashid. She has decided to go with Rashida, instead. Would you fully encourage her to explore her newly found desires and encourage her into a long term relationship with Rashida. Or would you try to nudge her back to Rashid........

Re: # 189 sajal [``...To hope!!! may we all learn how to treat our women with respect and dignity...``]

Hope always triumphs over experience.

Our hopes are like dreams. And you know what they say about dreams...

One must hold on fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.

Your personal narrative is powerful. Eight years of hell... !! For what? But its over, even if it is not going to be easy. To hell with those who shun you. They see you as a threat because you stood up for yourself and refused to follow the script.

It is hard to be a black sheep. I know, for I`ve been one. If I were a women, my path would have been much steeper. It was steep enough as it was. Society shuns those who attempt to veer away from the beaten path. It always has, and always will. We are each expected to go through the motions and act our part on the stage of life, reading from the script and following the director`s cue. Diviate from the script and you risk being out casted.

``Nails that stick out, get hammered back in.`` This is a Japanese saying, but applicable in South Asian societies just the same. The focus here is mostly on the plight of women in marriage and divorce. But I can tell you, the grass isn`t much greener on the other side either. There was a firestorm when I got divorced the first time. She was the model wife and I the wayward husband, or so the outside world saw it. (It just so happens that she too slapped me in front of our three year old daughter -- for crimes mostly not committed.) That was a desi marriage and one ostensibly of my own chosing.

With the benefit of twenty years in hindsight now, I can say without reservation that had I not walked out then, I`d be miserable, if not dead and gone today. Ironically, however, at long last, she and I are better friends today than we could possibly have been otherwise.

...SR

Re: # 155 F.V. [``...but I fear that I am beginning to enjoy my aloneness a bit too much... ``]

Enjoy your ``un-attached`` status. Revel in it, cherish every moment.

Loneliness is a curse, indeed, but solitude is an absolute blessing.

Your friend was right about being ``lonely`` in a dysfunctional relationship. Loneliness is an inner state of feeling disconnected. One can be lonely in a crowd.

...SR

Re: # 209

Hmm... and to think that Iran was once the poster child of modernity in its region. Thanks for the article.

We have something like that in India - a kind of downgraded version, which actually is legalized prostitution. The devdasi system. Then of course there are all those parents who marry their daughters off to Arabs and then the girl sits abandoned at home once the `husband` goes back to his country and never shows up again. What is really disturbing about both these systems is that the girl has very little to say about it and is usually denied further education because she has ostensibly found her station in life. At least Maryam made her choice...

...and isnt that pitiful? To be grateful for something like that!

Re: # 208

Amrita,

This was written about in essays authored by Iranian women scholars about 15 years ago. Here`s a more contemporary explaination.

Warning: this is a copy and paste


October 4, 2000
Love Finds a Way in Iran: `Temporary Marriage`
By ELAINE SCIOLINO

---

A dossier with the records of temporary marriages. The photo was taken from the records of a marriage registrar office in Tehran. The two big X`s show that the time of marriage has expired.

---

TEHRAN, Iran — For five years, Maryam, the hairdresser, and Karim, the home appliance salesman, carried on a love affair, meeting secretly at the house where Karim lived with his parents. The young couple`s relationship was officially sanctioned by Iran`s Islamic Republic, even though unmarried couples who have sex or even date and hold hands can be arrested, fined, even flogged. That is because Maryam and Karim were married.

Sort of.

They had a valid contract of temporary marriage.

Iran is a country where rules are fluid, where people of all classes and degrees of religiosity pride themselves on finding loopholes in the Islamic system. Temporary marriage, or sigheh, is one of the oddest and biggest.

The practice of temporary marriage is said to have existed during the lifetime of Muhammad, who is believed to have recommended it to his companions and soldiers. The majority Sunni sect in Islam banned it; the minority Shiite sect did not. Historically, the practice was used most frequently in Iran by pilgrims in Shiite shrine cities like Meshed and Qum. Pilgrims who traveled had sexual needs, the argument went. Temporary marriage was a legal way to satisfy them.

Maryam and Karim chose temporary marriage for a practical reason. ``We went out a lot together, and I didn`t want to get into trouble,`` Maryam, 31, said. ``We wanted to have documents so that if we were stopped on the street we could prove we weren`t doing anything illegal.``

Their ``marriage`` ritual was simple. Even though they could have sealed the contract privately, they went to a cleric in a marriage registry office in Tehran with their photographs and identity papers. Maryam had been forced into a loveless marriage at 15 to an opium-smoking, womanizing factory owner nearly two decades her senior who divorced her nine years later; so she brought along her divorce decree. If she had been a virgin, she would have needed her father`s permission to marry.

The couple could have gotten married for as short a time as a few minutes or as long as 99 years. They could have specified whether and how much money Maryam would be paid as a kind of dowry, or how much time they would spend together. Instead, they decided on a straightforward contract of six months, which they renewed again and again.

What was unusual about Maryam`s situation was her willingness to talk about it. Despite its religious imprimatur, temporary marriage has never been very popular in Iran. Tradition dictates that women be virgins when they marry; even when they`re not, they should pretend to be. Many Iranians regard sigheh as little more than legalized prostitution, especially since it is an advertisement that a woman is not a virgin. In some circles, even illicit sex is considered better — as long as it can be kept secret.

But now an odd mix of feminists, clerics and officials have begun to discuss sigheh as a possible solution to the problems of Iran`s youth. An extraordinarily large number of young people (about 65 percent of the population is under 25), combined with high unemployment, means that more couples are putting off marriage because they cannot afford it. Sigheh legally wraps premarital sex in an Islamic cloak.

``First, relations between young men and women will become a little bit freer,`` said Shahla Sherkat, editor of Zanan, a feminist monthly.``Second, they can satisfy their sexual needs. Third, sex will become depoliticized. Fourth, they will use up some of the energy they are putting into street demonstrations. Finally, our society`s obsession with virginity will disappear.``

Even conservatives like Muhammad Javad Larijani, a Berkeley-educated former legislator, favor temporary marriage. As Mr. Larijani put it: ``What`s wrong with temporary marriage? You`ve got a variation of it in California. It`s called a partnership. Better to have it legal than have it done clandestinely in the streets.``

Though most of Iran`s reformist publications have closed in recent months, newspapers and magazines that remain have begun to discuss the issue. A recent front-page article in a weekly tabloid, ``World of Medicine,`` about a chador-wearing, AIDS-infected prostitute who took pleasure in infecting her clients included a recommendation on avoiding infection: take a temporary wife.

Advocates of temporary marriage also point out that children of such unions are legitimate and entitled to a share of the father`s inheritance.

More rarely, unrelated couples have used nonsexual ``temporary marriage`` in order to live or work in close quarters.

But the popular response to such a sweeping societal solution has not been favorable. After ``The Hope of Youth,`` a weekly, ran an article in favor of sigheh, readers called and wrote in with scathing attacks.

``I am 23 years old,`` one unnamed young man told the paper. ``If I temporarily marry a young woman for three years and then divorce her, would anyone be willing to marry her? It would be impossible that any man would want to have a family with this woman.``

Another unidentified caller was quoted as saying: ``Those who want to promote temporary marriage don`t understand that they would be promoting prostitution. Who would be there to be a father for the children from temporary marriage?``

The paper wrote back: ``The reality is that young men and women do have sexual relationships. If these relationships are defined within an Islamic framework, we will not have the danger of prostitution.``

As for what to do about children of temporary marriages, the editor added, ``It is not so complicated to use birth control anymore.``

This is not the first time that people in the Islamic Republic have tried to promote sigheh. The first person to discuss it openly was none other than Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani when he was president. In a sermon in 1990, he called sexual desire a God-given trait. Don`t be ``promiscuous like the Westerners,`` he advocated, but use the God-given solution of temporary marriage.

That sermon brought thousands of protesters to Parliament, in part because a married man can have as many temporary wives as he wants, and up to four permanent ones, and can break the contract anytime he wants, whereas women cannot. Many secular Iranians are irked by what they perceive to be the hypocrisy of clerics, who have made ample use of temporary marriage over the years but are adamantly opposed to premarital or extramarital sex.

Clerics seldom talk about their experiences. But in the book ``Law of Desire,`` Shahla Haeri, a Boston University cultural anthropologist and granddaughter of an ayatollah, cited interviews with clerics.

One proclaimed that because God banned alcohol, he allowed temporary marriage.

Ms. Haeri, who lectured on the subject in Iran, said that neither the clerics nor leading thinkers had begun to analyze its implications in a coherent way. ``If they are really serious,`` she said, ``they should study the matter in the context of sexuality, birth control, sexually transmitted diseases, morality, religion and gender relations.``

But what of Maryam and Karim?

He gave her clothes and a little money from time to time during their ``marriage,`` but not the gold coin he had promised her with each renewal of their contract. He told her she was beautiful, something her husband had never done. She cleaned his house occasionally and even met his brothers. He met her mother — who, twice divorced, had married (permanently) for the third time. They kept their temporary marriage a secret, even from her.

``She knew that I was with a man,`` Maryam said, ``but would have preferred I was with him illegally than his sigheh.``

In fact, Maryam and Karim are not the couple`s real names. Maryam remains so ambivalent about what she did that she asked that not even their first names be used.

In the fifth year of their relationship, Karim began to call less frequently. Maryam went to a fortuneteller, who told her that Karim was to be married. When she confronted him, he said that it was over. After their contract ran out, he married a virgin chosen by his parents.

Because of her divorce, she said, ``he told me right from the start that he couldn`t marry me permanently. But he treated me so nicely that I thought things would change.``

Maryam was so much in love that she even offered — half jokingly — to become Karim`s temporary wife again after he was permanently married. He refused.

``I think sigheh is good, very good,`` she said, but added that she would not do it again. ``I want to get married permanently now, as soon as possible.``

Saminasha - intrigued by the temp. marriage in iran comment. tell me more, i havent heard that before.

amrita.

ps -
zahra, sajal, farzana and aisha - you`re all far braver than I. Kudos.

What Ive heard & what seems 2 b true empirically is in successful relationships theres less codependency. Each person has a ``fulfilled`` life outside of marriage & marriage is the icing on the cake as it were. The partners trust each other & r self-confident. They r together coz they want 2 b. I also see other couples who r together but r miserable in each other`s company but stay together coz theyr afraid of not. Sounds cliched but its true.

#195 ZahraJ
//...my wife told me that if I ever spoke to her in a harsh tone or loud manner or yelled at her then that would be the last day of our marriage....//

Come on - let`s not go overboard here. A yell and a harsh tone might be necessary when the other party is going cuckoo. We all go cuckoo every once a while. Sometimes a harsh tone is what it takes to prevent one from making a mistake - like, spending $4000/-on plasma TV [man - that was a gorgeous TV] or $600/- on a decorative banana tree.

And the best part is what comes after the yelling match - makeup sex.[ Sometimes that`s the only kind of sex you ever get ]. So let the ``yelling`` be there in marriage. It ain`t that bad.

Re: # 194

Romair:

gay marriages for women?

I have a feeling you were being facetious-but I am not. If a woman is gay and both she and her partner want to be married, why not indeed?

On the other hand, why cant more Pakistani men acknowlege and change their patriarchical roles within their marriages? There are many wonderful men of my grandfather`s, father`s, brother in law`s and brother`s generation who are the equals of their wives-so its not impossible, is it? When a male family member acts inappropriately towards his wife, to what extent do the menfolk support the wife and intervene? Reason and change the husband?

I know this is difficult in cases of emotional and physical abuse because the couple tends to isolate themselves, but the issues being brought up here arent the problem of just women. These are the problems of a community.

Finally, why not a temporary marriage as was/is custom in Iran?

Re: # 187

Sajal and Farzana,

I agree with Zahra; thank you for participating in this discussion in the way you have. These are some ways that other women can see that the issues in marriage and divorce are not unique to individuals.

Zahra,

Yes. I could add some stories, but I dont feel comfortable doing so. Lets just say psychological issues and abuse are involved...and the abusive spouse sees/saw no problem whatsoever with his behavior.

Re: # 186

Dr.Dr. (is that the Thompson Twins` or Robert Palmer hit) Sattar Sahib, all,

I think there are about ten people with which we could be compatible with for the rest of our lives-and that includes hard work (both of you putting away the Sunday Times at the diner and talking to each other), periods of intense aggravation (those two or three ingrained character traits that you are this close to killing him for!), keeping individual and unit goals as separate and combined as necessary. We arent even beg. scraping the surface of one`s backyard...

Then there is that strand of theory that maintains that marriage is ultimately a battle royale of the genders. There`s a grain of truth in that.

One thing that can be really exciting is supporting each other pursue dreams-as corny as that sounds. We all survive, but we live on our visions and what we can achieve-creatively, professionally, personally and spiritually. The conventional wisdom in marrying whom you ``should`` is that the path is smooth...but I must say, fumbling who you are in all these realms and watching and supporting your partner make his/her way is an amazing process-if both of you are growing at the same time. I`ve seen that quality in the marriages of Pakistani feminist women and men, as well as interracial marriages.

Aisha,

Loved your article. You have a brave woman as a mother. You must honor her and live truthfully, whatever that means, independent of what society`s constuct of it is at the moment.

Divorce is ugly only because it is a testament to how we have been unable to freely determine the tests of conpatibility, for some reason or the other. A happy marriage in my opinion is ability to share your dreams once in a while with another human being. It`s not a living arrangement.

Bravo for your courage and may its rewards be with you.

Aisha F. Sarwari

Further:

To the one who wishes to know about Muslim laws, although not personally applicable, you might find some additional info...a bit different... in my article `The Triple Conspiracy`.

#158 by amit:

I genuinely appreciate your concern. Thankfully, ``personal hell`` is not a constant and I am not a bitter person where relationships are concerned. Therefore, I would like you to not see my articles in the context of my private life. My stand on these issues - politics, gender, society have been formed early and have remained a constant.

I would not reduce my opinions to ``bitterness``. There are many people who are angry about the happenings around them. It is the job of vigilant human beings to question. Please treat me the way you have always done where my writings are concerned. I stand by every single thing I have written...and will never use my life as an excuse.

Thanks...and get back to your old grouses against me as and when it applies!

- - -

sajal (#179):

I can only wish you well and realise that you are now happy with your decision. I have never thought it fit to advice women because only one going through it knows exactly why she is. Each person has different compulsions. At that moment you are not thinking about what ideology you believe in...the sort of crap one often gets to hear about. You would either be branded a stain on feminist thought or a woman who could not keep a relationship going. Both views belong to a unidimensional mindset. You did what you did when you thought it right. That is a more individualistic thing to do. Thank you for sharing.

What struck me about Aisha`s article was the invisible emotional scars she speaks about. Men continue to be my friends and I am not a man-hater in personal interactions at all. From your later post, it is obvious that neither are you. I have seen men go through bad times as well.

I know you are already on your way ahead...believe in that.

- - -
To someone who wanted to know about Indians and Muslims and laws....I am not well-versed with the subject; mine was a court marriage.

Re:sattar2 and Romair

I remember a comedian was once commenting about gay marriage as follows - ``Same Sex Marriage, Different Sex Marriage, it does not matter. After 10 years, there is NO sex in the marriage`` :-)

This is precisely the problem with marriage. The sexual chemistry between any couple starts diminishing after 1 year. If you are very hot with the woman, it may last longer but on the average 1 year is around the time that the passion starts decreasing. After that what sustains you is mental and emotional connection. If you are lucky to have that, the marriage continues successfully. If not, you are miserable and lonely. If you date prior to marriage, there is a greater chance of that connection since you know each other. But that is offset by the decrease in physical passion which is very disappointing given prior feelings. If you have an arranged marriage, it is a complete crapshoot. No wonder, even couples like Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston couldn`t make it. So the bottom line is this - life is basically boring and miserable, just enjoy whatever good moments that you are lucky enough to get!!

Thanks Jay! Could you answer the rest of the questions since ZahraJ is upset at kaka and threatened to turn kaka`s bottom amber with spanking? One-thousand will not be enough though: kaka will need one-thousand-and-one as in Arabian Nights..

kaka`s maqsad is to learn and even though kaka expressed his sadness on the divorces (teen talaqaaN) of Versey, Sajal and Zahra, he is being yelled at!!

What is an innocent kaka to do?

RE: 195 Zahra J

It is a relief for us all that your are now ending your barrage :) For a person to stigmatize and stereotype an entire nation of hardworking men and women I think not only is indecent but is inhumane.

May Allah help you through your psychological trauma and your difficult times. The same goes to you and Farzana. Though let me tell you, I have very close friends whose best friends were shot right in front of them, they did not go and blame it on the rest of humanity.

Hum mein aur un mein zameen aur asmaan ka faraq hai. We just had the qurbani eid fly us by, what lesson did we learn? That Hazrat Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son for Allah, that this was a test. Allah tests us all in different ways. Through trials and tribulations as the quran states. To speak out against injustice is definitely a right and is the right to do, but to blatantly stereotype an entire population I believe is not fair and is reprehensible.

I wish you the best in your life, you have not gone through even 1% of the pain that I did, but I`m not going to point my blame on the men and women of the world :) May Allah bless all of those men and women who are sincere in their beliefs and in their deeds.

Shabber

Re: # 188

It was only a few months ago that an indian cort ruled that sending SMS of ``tal;ak talk talak`` is enough for divorce under indian muslim law.

I am sorry but lack of time does not permit to state more nuances, I would like to end my participation on this board with the following that I heard, just recently, from one of my very senior colleagues - a jewish man who has been happily married for almost 36 years.

``Zahra, prior to our marriage when we are dating, my wife told me that if I ever spoke to her in a harsh tone or loud manner or yelled at her then that would be the last day of our marriage. And, in our 36 years of marriage, I have yet to break my promise``.

I was impressed and found that to be very sweet and respectful towards his wife.

That`s true love!

Re: # 183

Saminasha: ``Romair,

Not all people WANT to get married...except for gays and lesbians-and you dont want them to, even tho their marriages are much more successful than het marriages in the Bible Belt.``

Yes, I am against gay marriage. Which is why I cannot declare myself to be secular. Actually I am not fully against gay marraige. I don`t mind my neighbors getting into a gay marriage. I just don`t want my son or daughter getting into one.

And I would have no idea what to do if I got an email from dad, that he had left mom, and had decided to move in with Butt Sahib, next door (not that I have anything against Butt Sahib.....he is a nice guy.........but still). Or if my wife, one day, told me that she was going to leave me for her ex-roomate with the big round........eyes.....Not only would she end up taking half my money, but more importantly how in the world would I explain to my friends back home that my wife left me for a girl...........

So I support gay marraige, as long as someone can gaurantee that my immediate family memebers will not get into one.......

Having said that, you may have just hit upon a unique solution for marriages in Pakistan; specifically for women. How about introducing gay marraige in Pakistan. If women are so fed up with Pakistani wolf males, yet still want a relationship and companionship, not to mention two sets of wedding dresses, why don`t they go for a gay marriage.

Look at the benefits: More jewelry, more dresses, someone to grow old with. Two careers. And no threat of violence, of any kind........

This is why I can`t stand the Pakistani secularists. They are on the forefront of Ahmedi rigths and Christain rights and what not. But tell them to protest for gay marriage, and they say its against their religion........

So this is my solution to all the husband-hunting ladies who are fed up with Pakistani guys.......Go for Pakistani girls..........

See if you discuss something long enough, usually a solution pops up......

Sattar2 Sahib, Ouch to Fagg@t. The proper word to address us is Gay. Lets be civil here.

I think it was Churchill who once said something like … democracy is a lousy system, but it is the best one around. Same seems to apply to the institution of marriage …

I can think of no other human relationship as difficult to manage as a marriage. More often than not mother-in-law turns out to be the anti-christ … the most dreadful product of a marriage … second only to a spouse that just does not get it.

The very concept of soul mate is the result of false advertising from Sunday classifieds. It has misled thousands, and will continue to do so unless we collectively boycott listening to the radio. Marriage is as basic as manual labor done by a brick layer … hard, back-breaking work … day in, day out. It takes time and effort, even in most favorable cases. These are facts as far as I have been able to ascertain …

ZahraJ …

... I hear what you say. Indeed, eastern males have their hang-ups. At the same time, I don’t think their western counterparts are that much better. I find the western society as one that is very much over-stimulated … which in itself causes hosts of problems. Most western women I know are none too happy with their marriages/relationships either. They are mostly divorced with or without live-in boyfriends, sharing custody of kids (which never goes smoothly), and working to make ends meet. I find most of them stressed and at times, down-right depressing … and consequently try to avoid their company altogether. Those who lived together with their partners before getting married don’t seem to be faring much better either. Arguably, the problem lies with males … eastern or western. Which leads me to wonder … how can there be something wrong with a whole half of a species? Could you be overlooking something here?

General comments …

Being in a marriage that works is the best one can possibly hope for. If your spouse loves you, your kids look up to you, your colleagues respect you, and your neighbor does not curse you … you’ve got it made. All else is meaningless sophistry …

Divorce is always an option … one that must be carefully evaluated. Like everything else, it too has consequences … esp. if kids are involved. The grass seems greener on the other side, and that can be misleading at times. On the other hand being in a hellish marriage is also a curse … and one owes it to himself to get out. Considering all the factors, what are the right choices? The way we define happiness in popular culture … is it even attainable? At times, we expect too much out of life … and set ourselves up for disappointment … in marriages, in pursuit of swanky lifestyles. At times, happiness can be found in a cup of good coffee, a cigarette, and a good book … or in having a martini with an old friend … or in an early morning walk in a park … or in going home from work to a 4-year old daughter who is waiting impatiently for me, as I am expected to pickup her favorite ice-cream on my way home …

Life is complicated … too many pitfalls along the way. One must navigate carefully. It takes years and years of making right choices that culminate in a life well lived. If you can look back and find more right choices and fewer regrets … you’re the king ... and it matters none if you are an atheist, a buddhist, a communist, or a fagg@t … more power to you …

#188: Just shut up and get lost! I think that should answer all your questions.

Now, if you did not get the message then be prepared to get the 1000 lashes. I guess I may have to initiate that ``Ideal State``.

romair mian,

......... i am not against marriage per se ........ all i am saying is that it is no big whup and divorce is okay - a lot better than staying in a miserable relationship (not necessarily abusive).......... and desis are not an exception to the rule - maybe i am running in the wrong crowd, but i know a lot of desis who are either divorced or thinking about it, some after 20 plus years ........

To everyone i would like to add:

I was married to a handsome Pakistani pig for 8 yrs but I do know all Pakistani men are not pigs............
My grandfather never raised his voice ever infront of the girls in the family. He used to say they are my little pricesses and they come with blessings from my Prophet ( pbuh). We ever educated in the best schools of lahore and never lacked anything in our life. I never heard a male in my family disrespect a woman in any relationship ever and for me to get into a bad relationship was like hell which i never knew existed. So I know if there are some men like my grandfather, father, my uncles and brothers, then there surely are other men who know how to respect their mothers, wives sisters and daughters but above all how to respect a WOMAN irrespective of her relationship to him.
To hope!!! may we all learn how to treat our women with respect and dignity.

Versey, Sajal and ZahraJ,

It is sad that you guys went through hardships around divorce time. kaka has questions about the procedures of divorce for Muslim Indians.

Did (1) you guys go through divorce proceedings in a Indian civil laws or the Muslim personal laws?

Just as a matter of general perspective, which set of laws is (2) more generous to women?

Can a Muslim (3) choose to be held to a certain set of laws and not the other one?

When is a Muslim Indian (4) identified as a Muslim for the purpose of applying Muslim marital laws? At birth? At matrimony? Or divorce?

If so, can she (5) get out of the bindings of the application of the law regardless of the her commitment to the marital laws. Can she (6) `suddenly` seek the application of Muslim personal law even if she never did register her marriage with the Muslim law courts?

Are the Muslim laws the (7) same for Shia and Qadyanis?

Do (8) other minorities have similar procedures?

Refer to the keywords right after the number assigned.. You can answer even if you are not Muslim or Indian..

Re: # 177

Sajal: I am glad that you are out of the messy relationship. Just to let you know the Working Mother of the Year`s award was granted to a Pakistani American Scientist a few years back. Her story was published in all the leading magazines and she was interviewed on Good Morning America. Her husband walked out on her because she gave birth to a baby girl - he was a pakistani musalman as well. She is a Phd and has secured her own place in the corporate sector in America. By the way, her husband also came to the United States through her. She was a scholarship holder whereas that leech just tagged along. Most of my cousins(both male and female) and friends (female) are far happier in their relationships with people outside of their culture. The ones who have opted for men from the Pakistani Culture are leading an average life with both average and below average chaps.

If a man is not capable of standing on his own two feet on his own then he is not worth a glance - that`s my mantra. Educated and accomplished women have to set some standards.

I have seen a few very close friends go through terrible time in their relationships(both pre and post). Both of them opted to dump the piece of garbage men in the picture and moved on. One went through an ugly divorce within the 1st year of her marraige and her parents asked her to get out of it within the first few months. She prolonged but eventually gave in. She got remarried in the following year and is quite happily married with a 3-4 year old son. She moved to the US and has been pursuing her higher studies and just started her new job. Interestingly, her first marriage was also to someone in the US who was psychologically unstable.

There are several pleasant cases of remarriage. In my opinion, that is only doable, if a woman knows her value and who she is, only then the husband values her identity. In many cases, where women were remarried, the guys were never married before. In my experience, all those marriages were love marriages. None of them were arranged. So, there are some positive episodes as well.

Saminasha, I have many relatives - male & female - in their 30s who as far as we can tell have no intention of marrying much to the chagrin of their old-fashioned parents. Some have live-in friends. But acc. 2 law, they r common-law couple. If they separate in some cases it would be as severe as divorce & in other cases it would be no big deal. The variable I think is the length of time they have been together.

Urstruly,

Your post #146 contains the usual errors. You are a sick individual with neither self-esteem nor regard for human life.

Blasphemy: Quran prescribes that only social ties etc. be severed with those who blaspheme. Ignoring this and insisting on killing blasphemers has nothing to do with Islam or civility.

Apostasy: You are wrong once again. Quran does not prescribe any punishment for apostasy and it leaves the matter between Almighty and the individual. Your position is to kill apostates … which is why you are a sick animal.

“Last prophet”: Nowhere does Quran declare the Prophet (pbuh) the last prophet (I am delighted that you accept this … and stay away from Quran as a consequence). In the past you’ve misquoted hadith to support your views. When I proved you wrong by merely quoting the full hadith, you did not have an answer (I am sure Malik`s now curious ...).


Are you really that stupid … or do you just like to play dumb? Kindly clarify ...

Romair,
Point taken. Divorce in many states in the US entails qually dividing property and savings, and deciding on the custody of children. Where no children are involved and the couple has not been married for long, divorce can be relatively painless. For older couple, especially older women who may not be independently wealthy, divorce may mean a life of poverty. Therefore, stress induced by divorce is largely dependent on age, financial status, length of marriage and whether children are involved. The answer to whether divorce is the most traumatic event is - it depends.

Re: # 176

Romair,

Not all people WANT to get married...except for gays and lesbians-and you dont want them to, even tho their marriages are much more successful than het marriages in the Bible Belt. And even then, some of our gay brethren and sistren feel the same way many of us feel...if you want the benefits, you`ve got to play along...

What you might be confusing marriage with is a desire for a soul mate. As some of us are lucky to discover, your spouse may be it-even with years of work and communication-. Most of us find out that our spouses arent or may never be our soul mates....or worse, not even our friends.

romair - you gloat ``Malik99 may have had the complete foundations of his religious thought process shaken. ``

romair sahib, that is bound to happen when one meets a person who has the PERFECT understanding of a religion. so yeah, pleased to meet you.

but unfortunately, the way you floated about and separated ``interpretations`` of Quran and life and teachings of Prophet (saw), it almost comes out that Islam is whatever you want it to be - depending on how one interprets. You pick what you like from ``Islam``. You leave what you dislike. Context does not matter.

Of the five pillars of Islam, you have already ``re-interpreted`` 3 of them into oblivion. Daily Salaat - a pillar of Islam, is no longer the way Prophet (saw) prescribed it. Haj is not how Prophet (saw) taught us. You are already upset that Qadiyanis are declared non-muslims. So there goes the kalima too. Of the five pillars of Islam you have re-engineered 3. Not sure what your ``intrepretation`` is about zakat and siyaam, but I can make an educated guess :)

Its a happy happy joy joy world.

Re: # 172

soysauce mian: ``Romair.......Divorce is a psychologically traumatic experience besides death? Where are you getting that from? Losing a job is traumatic, living in the street is traumatic, falling ill is traumatic. How did you do your ranking?``

This has been ranked by eminent psychologists (of which I am not one). Following is a ranking from the University of Texas Medical Branch website, which ranks the most stressful life events, based on a social readjustment scale, from most stressful to least. Following are the top ten:

``Holmes Social Readjustment Rating Scale

Rank Life Event LCU Value

1 Death of spouse 100
2 Divorce 73
3 Marital separation 65
4 Jail term 63
5 Death of close family member 63
6 Personal injury or illness 53
7 Marriage 50
8 Fired from job 47
9 Marital reconciliation 45
10 Retirement 45``

https://www.utmb.edu/psychology/holmes_social_readjustment_ratin.htm

As you can see, the top three are all related to marriage. An unwanted separation (death of a spouse) is the the most stressful. Followed by a voluntary divorce and separation. They are more stressful than going to jail or even death of some other family member. And mind you, this is for goras, whom everyone considers independent, liberated etc. For desis, it is bound to be higher.

Ironically, getting married is 7th most stressful. And marital reconciliaiton is 9th. 5 out of the top ten most stressful events are related to marriage!!

This is why I say, if you are not sure about getting married and/or are already planning to get a divorce, even before you have gotten married, then don`t get married to begin with. Not getting married would be better, for such a person, than getting married and then going through a divorce.....

Re:sajal#177

Men who hit women are the scum of the earth, real sadistic vermin who should be in jail. They are basically cowards with low self-esteem, who cannot succeed in the outside world. Hence they take out their frustration on women, whom they consider to be weaker. I hope you filed criminal charges and got your ex arrested. My sympathies with you. Hope you can pull yourself together.

As far as your friend is concerned who got her sister hitched to your ex, she must be insane. She has single handedly ruined her sister`s life by pushing her into this living hell. Jeez, what is this world coming to?

Aisha and Farzana !

I applaud you for sharing your life with us.

Farzana,

I have just disclosed my life history on chowk, but I am still perplexed as to what women are in our society. Our parents raise us with dignity and respect and then our husbands take it all away so easily and make us feel worthless. This society tells you to suffer in silence and looks down upon you if u decide to stand up to it. I recently took divorce from my ex too and like you I am finally free. I may not have the married word next to me but i do have my respect with me.
It takes courage to do that and believe me I know and I applaud you for standing up for your rights.
sincerely
sajal

Re: # 176

henry kessinger is the great saviour of all scoundrels for he coined the eternal ``declare victory and get out``.

I just want to say to the women :

If you want to change your life you have to take a step to change it. I am new to this site and I don’t know if I am sharing my thoughts appropriately but I do know I speak with sincerity.
I got divorced last year after a long 8 yr marriage . I was unhappy and miserable but didn’t show it because of course I had to suffer in silence as I was brought up to understand divorce was the that should never be in my dictionary. So there goes long, miserable years of my life trying to salvage a failing marriage for the sake of people and society. Then one day when my ex hit me infront of my one and only daughter and I saw her cowering in the corner it hit me what was I trying to save? A daughter who will grow up with no respect and dignity so I moved out with the only clothes on my back. The funny thing is this is America but all the Pakistanis in my city boycotted me because for them physical abuse was not a good enough reason to divorce..not good enough and I was told I am being a selfish woman!!!
hell who were they to judge but they did but did I care, no! because it was a question of my life , my kid and my dignity. I stood up for my rights, fought the ex and the society with no money. I am living my life with peace and for the first time in 9 yrs I know my worth. I am an educated woman so why did I take his crap for all these years because I didn’t want to be called a divorced woman with a little girl as I know well the stigma attached to it.
The kicker is my best friend for 8 yrs in the US took his side and for the life of me I would not understand why as she knew about everything and he even told her yes he was guilty of the above crimes. So 3 months after my divorce my ex tells me well I am getting married to your supposed best friend`s younger sister. and lo and behold! here was the missing link and why ? because of the green card I gave him!!!
she thought her sister would come to the US so even though she knew everything they still married her sister why because she has 6 unmarried sisters in Pakistan and they belong to a lower middle class family.
I wonder after this true life episode what are the women really worth in our society?

hamidm mian #175: “........... what bothered me about your discussion with urstruly is that it was the usual muslim reaction of men throwing the book (books in urstruly`s case) at women ............ the women deserve better than dragging god into their very real issues ..........”

As I said earlier, there are certain people, at whom one should throw the book, and there are others at whom one should throw George Carlin. Urstruly in now (almost) convinced that much of his legitimacy of his arguments may be illegitimate. Malik99 may have had the complete foundations of his religious thought process shaken. In the end, both are at least, convinced that a majority of women aren’t going to hell. Which was my aim of the whole discussion, with them. Throwing George Carlin at them would be about as useless as throwing the book at you……………

“....... you are right about me - of course i am concerned about who my daughters end up marrying, even though it is a few years away ................ .. look, based on my personal experience i don`t have a lot of faith in the desi male”

I am not the dad of adult, or even teenager daughter(s), yet. So I don’t have first hand experience. But I have observed certain things:

I think there is an in-built desire amongst girls/women to get married. It is in their genes. Not just the desire of having a husband, but the desire of marriage and a wedding, itself. This is why, despite all the statistics you have presented, marriages continue to take place, in all societies, at all levels, amongst, ``liberated`` and, ``un-liberated`` women.

I can hardly remember anything about my wedding, valima etc. I don’t recall what I was wearing, what the arrangements were, who laughed and who cried. I can barely remember the name of the hotel, where it took place. Howeever, my wife can recall each and every detail: her clothes, who stitched them, the food, the arrangements, the jewelry, who attended and who did not. I gave away the suits I wore at my wedding years ago, when I went from a size 31 to a size 33. I don’t even remember the color. My wife has each and every single piece of her wedding clothes stored in safekeeping. Even though I could have worn the suits to work and she cannot wear the elaborate desi wedding dress anywhere. Yet we have three full suitcases of clothes occupying precious storage space, where I want to put my newly purchased bicycle. My dad told me he found my wedding ring in his bottom drawer. I had been searching for it for years. My wife has each and every piece of jewelry locked in a bank. She has left the car and house open on occasions, where we could have been robbed, but never once has the jewelry been left unlocked. This is despite the fact that the clothes and jewelry have never been worn in a decade. And the fact that we had an arranged marriage, and obviously didn’t know too much about each other, much less be in love, at the time of marriage.

Whenever new married desi couples come over, the first things they are shown are our wedding pictures; as much as I try hard to make sure they don’t see my pimple-faced early 20s, lack of color-coordinated appearance. And when we make a return visit, the wife on that side, bores us with her wedding pictures; as her husband and I try to sneak away to the local sports bar.

For a long time, I justified this by convincing myself that I am just a great catch and my wife thanks the Lord, once at Fajr and twice at Isha, for placing me in her life. However, over time, I have realized this may not be the case. It is not me, who is the important entity. It is the whole concept of marriage and a wedding that is important. I just happened to have been in the picture. It could well have been anyone else and the pictures would remain just as important.

Surprisingly, this is not only true for desi women. It is true for goris also. I have not seen any wedding magazine, specifically for men, in North America. Yet there are tons of them for women. Some which just have pictures of wedding dresses. Even Jennifer Aniston and Julia Roberts et al – women who could have an army of men – want to get married. They will get divorced and then immediately want a wedding again. And will talk about their newly minted husband (who makes 1/50th of their salary and maybe living off them) like a college girl talking about her first boyfriend…….again and again and again….

My wife’s old college roommates come and stay with us, now and then. One or two of them are unmarried gori ladies. They have been there and done that: slept with half the guys in San Francisco (and perhaps even some of the girls), partied till they dropped, drugs, climbing the corporate ladder (not to mention also climbing every good-looking guy they can get their hands on). Yet what is it that they admire about us desi simpletons: Not the new CD player that I keep trying to show them. Nor the fact that we can speak two languages better than them. But the fact that we are married, and still married. For all their careers and independence and, ``liberation,`` and what not, her marraige is one thing my wife holds over them as her trump card……..

So, while I try not to comment on family members of repliers on this site, I will make an exception in this case, since you sound like a genuinely concerned desi dad of two growing girls. Girls, at least in my opinion, have this in-built desire to get married, programmed into their DNA. I don’t know why. But it is there. Despite the fact that the dice is loaded against them. Girls want to fall in love in their sparkling wedding dress and be swept off their feet by their Prince Charming. Even the ones in an arranged marriage, who have never met their husbands-to-be, turn their pictures into an imaginary Prince Charming. This includes all the girls from Kasur to Hollywood.

So my guess is that while you are busy trying to run FBI and NAB checks on every boy/guy (desi or otherwise) your daughter(s) may look at. And while you are busy cautioning them about the abusive male (desi or otherwise), from whom they should never be afraid to get a divorce, they will busy thinking about their wedding dresses, their flower arrangements and the details of decorating their new house. And about their Prince Charming or Ranjha/Majnu-to-be, even if there is every indication in your evaluation that he won’t be one……..

This is why the institution of marriage chugs along, in every country, every religion and even amongst atheists, despite all its in-built problems………

romair mian,

....... you are right about me - of course i am concerned about who my daughters end up marrying, even though it is a few years away ...........

..... .. look, based on my personal experience i don`t have a lot of faith in the desi male - one out of four weddings i have attended in the last few years have either ended in divorce or i am constantly hearing horror stories about the girls being abused by their husbands and their families (and this is right here, in good old us of a and all the parties involved are ``educated`` professionals) ........ and being a man i fully agree with mrs hamidm`s keen observation that ``aadmi ki zaat ka koi bharosa nahin``..........

........... what bothered me about your discussion with urstruly is that it was the usual muslim reaction of men throwing the book (books in urstruly`s case) at women ............ the women deserve better than dragging god into their very real issues ..........

romair mian (and you can call me mian if you want to ),

...... marriage is a man-made institution and there is really nothing sacred about it ...... people in scandinavian countries and other parts of europe seem to be doing just fine - actually, since their crime rate is really low, the kids seem to be okay inspite of being bast@rds.........sure it is a traumatic experience for people when they split, but they do seem to get over it rather quickly, especially if young children are not involved ...............

....... in our grandfather`s generation women also put up with multiple wives (both my grandfathers had two apiece) but can you imagine your wife putting up with it ? .........

...........if you look into it, i am sure you will find that most pakistani women who initiate divorce are those who can take care of themselves financially and do not fear being ostracized by society ......... the rest of them don`t really have a choice and will suffer all kinds of abuse in silence ............ of course if you wait long enough things can change - after years and years of abusive behavior some men do have a change of heart or the mother-in-law simply passes away ............... but is it really worth the wait ?

hamdim mian/ZahraJ mian: I am going to go out on a limb on comment on something personal, which I think maybe on both of yours mind. Considering the fact that both of you have commented on areas, people or groups that I am a part of, in same manner, I think I can take such liberty, also...........

My guess is that both of you are in a stage where something related to women`s marriage is on your respective minds. This is why you are both quite defensive and just seeing the worse in desi males.

I would say, ZahraJ is in her twenties and single, and maybe looking for a husband. And she keeps getting disappointed with all the one`s that are prospects. In addition, she has heard horror stories about what desi husbands do to their wives. So she is letting loose on desi guys, for not coming up to her standard of being an eligible suitor, i.e she wants to (or may want to) get married, but she just wishes the desi males would fix themsleves up, so that they can be considered eligible......

Hamidm mian, I would say, has daughter(s) whom he knows are getting close to the marriage age. If not close, then at least where he (or they) has to start thinking about that. He, being a desi male, knows the thought process of desi males, and how they treat their wives. But now he is a dad. And he does not, obviously like all fathers, want his daughters to end up like that in a marriage where they are not treated well.

So he is now shifted from being a desi husband to being a desi dad. And wants to ensure that a mechanism is in place, where daughters can get out of a marriage quite comfortably if they have to. Hence he is pushing a mechanism in which divorce is normal, common and easy..........

I think, women, Western and Eastern, for whatever reason, despite all the marriage horror stories they discuss, do want to get married. I don`t know why. But they do. They will complain about men (desi or otherwise) but they want one as a husband. They just get frustrated when they cannot find the right one, or end up with the wrong one.

Men, on the other hand, are not as frustrated by not finding the right woman. Nor do they want to get married as much as women do. However, when the become dads of daughter, they become holier than the pope and start worrying about, ``the right guy,`` even more than their daughters do. This is specially true for desi men........

#170 Romair
Divorce is a psychologically traumatic experience besides death? Where are you getting that from? Losing a job is traumatic, living in the street is traumatic, falling ill is traumatic. How did you do your ranking?