The “D” Word

RE: 195 Zahra J

It is a relief for us all that your are now ending your barrage :) For a person to stigmatize and stereotype an entire nation of hardworking men and women I think not only is indecent but is inhumane.

May Allah help you through your psychological trauma and your difficult times. The same goes to you and Farzana. Though let me tell you, I have very close friends whose best friends were shot right in front of them, they did not go and blame it on the rest of humanity.

Hum mein aur un mein zameen aur asmaan ka faraq hai. We just had the qurbani eid fly us by, what lesson did we learn? That Hazrat Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son for Allah, that this was a test. Allah tests us all in different ways. Through trials and tribulations as the quran states. To speak out against injustice is definitely a right and is the right to do, but to blatantly stereotype an entire population I believe is not fair and is reprehensible.

I wish you the best in your life, you have not gone through even 1% of the pain that I did, but I`m not going to point my blame on the men and women of the world :) May Allah bless all of those men and women who are sincere in their beliefs and in their deeds.

Shabber

I am sorry but lack of time does not permit to state more nuances, I would like to end my participation on this board with the following that I heard, just recently, from one of my very senior colleagues - a jewish man who has been happily married for almost 36 years.

``Zahra, prior to our marriage when we are dating, my wife told me that if I ever spoke to her in a harsh tone or loud manner or yelled at her then that would be the last day of our marriage. And, in our 36 years of marriage, I have yet to break my promise``.

I was impressed and found that to be very sweet and respectful towards his wife.

That`s true love!

Sattar2 Sahib, Ouch to Fagg@t. The proper word to address us is Gay. Lets be civil here.

I think it was Churchill who once said something like … democracy is a lousy system, but it is the best one around. Same seems to apply to the institution of marriage …

I can think of no other human relationship as difficult to manage as a marriage. More often than not mother-in-law turns out to be the anti-christ … the most dreadful product of a marriage … second only to a spouse that just does not get it.

The very concept of soul mate is the result of false advertising from Sunday classifieds. It has misled thousands, and will continue to do so unless we collectively boycott listening to the radio. Marriage is as basic as manual labor done by a brick layer … hard, back-breaking work … day in, day out. It takes time and effort, even in most favorable cases. These are facts as far as I have been able to ascertain …

ZahraJ …

... I hear what you say. Indeed, eastern males have their hang-ups. At the same time, I don’t think their western counterparts are that much better. I find the western society as one that is very much over-stimulated … which in itself causes hosts of problems. Most western women I know are none too happy with their marriages/relationships either. They are mostly divorced with or without live-in boyfriends, sharing custody of kids (which never goes smoothly), and working to make ends meet. I find most of them stressed and at times, down-right depressing … and consequently try to avoid their company altogether. Those who lived together with their partners before getting married don’t seem to be faring much better either. Arguably, the problem lies with males … eastern or western. Which leads me to wonder … how can there be something wrong with a whole half of a species? Could you be overlooking something here?

General comments …

Being in a marriage that works is the best one can possibly hope for. If your spouse loves you, your kids look up to you, your colleagues respect you, and your neighbor does not curse you … you’ve got it made. All else is meaningless sophistry …

Divorce is always an option … one that must be carefully evaluated. Like everything else, it too has consequences … esp. if kids are involved. The grass seems greener on the other side, and that can be misleading at times. On the other hand being in a hellish marriage is also a curse … and one owes it to himself to get out. Considering all the factors, what are the right choices? The way we define happiness in popular culture … is it even attainable? At times, we expect too much out of life … and set ourselves up for disappointment … in marriages, in pursuit of swanky lifestyles. At times, happiness can be found in a cup of good coffee, a cigarette, and a good book … or in having a martini with an old friend … or in an early morning walk in a park … or in going home from work to a 4-year old daughter who is waiting impatiently for me, as I am expected to pickup her favorite ice-cream on my way home …

Life is complicated … too many pitfalls along the way. One must navigate carefully. It takes years and years of making right choices that culminate in a life well lived. If you can look back and find more right choices and fewer regrets … you’re the king ... and it matters none if you are an atheist, a buddhist, a communist, or a fagg@t … more power to you …

#188: Just shut up and get lost! I think that should answer all your questions.

Now, if you did not get the message then be prepared to get the 1000 lashes. I guess I may have to initiate that ``Ideal State``.

romair mian,

......... i am not against marriage per se ........ all i am saying is that it is no big whup and divorce is okay - a lot better than staying in a miserable relationship (not necessarily abusive).......... and desis are not an exception to the rule - maybe i am running in the wrong crowd, but i know a lot of desis who are either divorced or thinking about it, some after 20 plus years ........

To everyone i would like to add:

I was married to a handsome Pakistani pig for 8 yrs but I do know all Pakistani men are not pigs............
My grandfather never raised his voice ever infront of the girls in the family. He used to say they are my little pricesses and they come with blessings from my Prophet ( pbuh). We ever educated in the best schools of lahore and never lacked anything in our life. I never heard a male in my family disrespect a woman in any relationship ever and for me to get into a bad relationship was like hell which i never knew existed. So I know if there are some men like my grandfather, father, my uncles and brothers, then there surely are other men who know how to respect their mothers, wives sisters and daughters but above all how to respect a WOMAN irrespective of her relationship to him.
To hope!!! may we all learn how to treat our women with respect and dignity.

Re: # 189 sajal [``...To hope!!! may we all learn how to treat our women with respect and dignity...``]

Hope always triumphs over experience.

Our hopes are like dreams. And you know what they say about dreams...

One must hold on fast to dreams, for if dreams die, life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.

Your personal narrative is powerful. Eight years of hell... !! For what? But its over, even if it is not going to be easy. To hell with those who shun you. They see you as a threat because you stood up for yourself and refused to follow the script.

It is hard to be a black sheep. I know, for I`ve been one. If I were a women, my path would have been much steeper. It was steep enough as it was. Society shuns those who attempt to veer away from the beaten path. It always has, and always will. We are each expected to go through the motions and act our part on the stage of life, reading from the script and following the director`s cue. Diviate from the script and you risk being out casted.

``Nails that stick out, get hammered back in.`` This is a Japanese saying, but applicable in South Asian societies just the same. The focus here is mostly on the plight of women in marriage and divorce. But I can tell you, the grass isn`t much greener on the other side either. There was a firestorm when I got divorced the first time. She was the model wife and I the wayward husband, or so the outside world saw it. (It just so happens that she too slapped me in front of our three year old daughter -- for crimes mostly not committed.) That was a desi marriage and one ostensibly of my own chosing.

With the benefit of twenty years in hindsight now, I can say without reservation that had I not walked out then, I`d be miserable, if not dead and gone today. Ironically, however, at long last, she and I are better friends today than we could possibly have been otherwise.

...SR

Re: # 212 SR

But hope is what keeps us going!!!
Thankyou for your kind words.
I have learned a lot from life and i do believe if you trust and believe in yourself there is always a reward. Truthfully, I am thankful to my parents and my family who have supported my decision and loved me . I could not have done it without thier support. My biggest strength is my cute 7yr old daughter and I wonder how can such a little package give me so much strength.
The rest of the Pakistani people here in my community are beyond my understanding. What is wrong with them?

Versey, Sajal and ZahraJ,

It is sad that you guys went through hardships around divorce time. kaka has questions about the procedures of divorce for Muslim Indians.

Did (1) you guys go through divorce proceedings in a Indian civil laws or the Muslim personal laws?

Just as a matter of general perspective, which set of laws is (2) more generous to women?

Can a Muslim (3) choose to be held to a certain set of laws and not the other one?

When is a Muslim Indian (4) identified as a Muslim for the purpose of applying Muslim marital laws? At birth? At matrimony? Or divorce?

If so, can she (5) get out of the bindings of the application of the law regardless of the her commitment to the marital laws. Can she (6) `suddenly` seek the application of Muslim personal law even if she never did register her marriage with the Muslim law courts?

Are the Muslim laws the (7) same for Shia and Qadyanis?

Do (8) other minorities have similar procedures?

Refer to the keywords right after the number assigned.. You can answer even if you are not Muslim or Indian..

Re: # 188

It was only a few months ago that an indian cort ruled that sending SMS of ``tal;ak talk talak`` is enough for divorce under indian muslim law.

Saminasha, I have many relatives - male & female - in their 30s who as far as we can tell have no intention of marrying much to the chagrin of their old-fashioned parents. Some have live-in friends. But acc. 2 law, they r common-law couple. If they separate in some cases it would be as severe as divorce & in other cases it would be no big deal. The variable I think is the length of time they have been together.

Re: # 186

Dr.Dr. (is that the Thompson Twins` or Robert Palmer hit) Sattar Sahib, all,

I think there are about ten people with which we could be compatible with for the rest of our lives-and that includes hard work (both of you putting away the Sunday Times at the diner and talking to each other), periods of intense aggravation (those two or three ingrained character traits that you are this close to killing him for!), keeping individual and unit goals as separate and combined as necessary. We arent even beg. scraping the surface of one`s backyard...

Then there is that strand of theory that maintains that marriage is ultimately a battle royale of the genders. There`s a grain of truth in that.

One thing that can be really exciting is supporting each other pursue dreams-as corny as that sounds. We all survive, but we live on our visions and what we can achieve-creatively, professionally, personally and spiritually. The conventional wisdom in marrying whom you ``should`` is that the path is smooth...but I must say, fumbling who you are in all these realms and watching and supporting your partner make his/her way is an amazing process-if both of you are growing at the same time. I`ve seen that quality in the marriages of Pakistani feminist women and men, as well as interracial marriages.

Urstruly,

Your post #146 contains the usual errors. You are a sick individual with neither self-esteem nor regard for human life.

Blasphemy: Quran prescribes that only social ties etc. be severed with those who blaspheme. Ignoring this and insisting on killing blasphemers has nothing to do with Islam or civility.

Apostasy: You are wrong once again. Quran does not prescribe any punishment for apostasy and it leaves the matter between Almighty and the individual. Your position is to kill apostates … which is why you are a sick animal.

“Last prophet”: Nowhere does Quran declare the Prophet (pbuh) the last prophet (I am delighted that you accept this … and stay away from Quran as a consequence). In the past you’ve misquoted hadith to support your views. When I proved you wrong by merely quoting the full hadith, you did not have an answer (I am sure Malik`s now curious ...).


Are you really that stupid … or do you just like to play dumb? Kindly clarify ...

Romair,
Point taken. Divorce in many states in the US entails qually dividing property and savings, and deciding on the custody of children. Where no children are involved and the couple has not been married for long, divorce can be relatively painless. For older couple, especially older women who may not be independently wealthy, divorce may mean a life of poverty. Therefore, stress induced by divorce is largely dependent on age, financial status, length of marriage and whether children are involved. The answer to whether divorce is the most traumatic event is - it depends.

romair - you gloat ``Malik99 may have had the complete foundations of his religious thought process shaken. ``

romair sahib, that is bound to happen when one meets a person who has the PERFECT understanding of a religion. so yeah, pleased to meet you.

but unfortunately, the way you floated about and separated ``interpretations`` of Quran and life and teachings of Prophet (saw), it almost comes out that Islam is whatever you want it to be - depending on how one interprets. You pick what you like from ``Islam``. You leave what you dislike. Context does not matter.

Of the five pillars of Islam, you have already ``re-interpreted`` 3 of them into oblivion. Daily Salaat - a pillar of Islam, is no longer the way Prophet (saw) prescribed it. Haj is not how Prophet (saw) taught us. You are already upset that Qadiyanis are declared non-muslims. So there goes the kalima too. Of the five pillars of Islam you have re-engineered 3. Not sure what your ``intrepretation`` is about zakat and siyaam, but I can make an educated guess :)

Its a happy happy joy joy world.