The “D” Word

Aisha,

Just a side thought here. If you are so miserable with your husband, then perhaps he is also as miserable as you are in the marriage. I`m not passing judgment on whether the progressive, individualistic you is right or whether the conservative, patriarchal he is right. All I`m saying is that instead of trying hard to invent ways and means of NOT getting divorced (your family, your children, lack of a support network, ostracism of society), why not talk to your husband who might be desperate to get you out of his life as well and may end up being your biggest aid (who knows, maybe he`ll be chivalrous enough to give you a black eye or two to help you out with the parents).

Best of luck,
Irfan.

PS: I may be totally off here. I mean you may have already talked to him and he may be from the ``in misery till death do us part`` school of thought.

ayesha,

I totally agree. But don`t you think some men are put in the same position as well. After having a bunch of kids (or even before that) the families or the society aren`t as supportive of a D as most women think.

Men are then considered chauvinistic-pigs that were ouldn`t understand `what a women wants`.

Malik 99

Check:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301

``Once Allah`s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) of `Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, ``O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).`` They asked, ``Why is it so, O Allah`s Apostle ?`` He replied, ``You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands......``

This hadith addresses both contentions in my post i.e. `women should control their tongues` and `must be grateful to their husbands` to save themselves from hellfire. Logically those who manage to save themselves from hellfire, go to heaven - there is no concept of `limbo` in Islam.


Check this one out:

Sahih Bokhari: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 125:
Narrated `Abdullah bin Abbas:


``........Then I saw the (Hell) Fire, and I have never before, seen such a horrible sight as that, and I saw that the majority of its dwellers were women.`` The people asked, ``O Allah`s Apostle! What is the reason for that?`` He replied, ``Because of their ungratefulness.`` It was said. ``Do they disbelieve in Allah (are they ungrateful to Allah)?`` He replied, ``They are not thankful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors done to them. Even if you do good to one of them all your life, when she seems some harshness from you, she will say, ``I have never seen any good from you.` ``

More specifically:

Mishkat al-Masabih, English translation, Book I, Section `Duties of husband and wife`, Hadith No. ii, 60:

``Whosoever female dies while her husband is pleased with her, will enter Paradise.``

and again

Kanz- el-`Ummal, Vol. 22, Hadith No. 868.

``The prophet once said to a woman: `Watch how you treat your husband for he is your Paradise and your Hell.``

Urstruly/Malik99: Do you believe in the Islam of the Quran, or the Islam of Mr. Bukhari? Have either of you ever done any detailed study of the origins of hadith books, the time period they were written, the methodology used to write them and the life histories of the people who wrote them............

The Quran is generally quite abstract and can thus be interpreted in many different ways, according to the times. It is also written in a very egalatarian manner (for its time) and represents the rights of the oppressed of the time, against the oppressor. This is probably why, all kinds of Muslims, including women, generally accept it. However, hadith tend to be very direct, e.g. majority of folks in hell being women. It is hadith that are used to create most of the mess in Islam.

I have always wondered whether those who use hadith to justify their points, have ever bothered to consider the fact that it is impossible for all of them to be correct. And that they are basically handing over a religion to the likes of normal people like Mr. Bukhari, thereby raising their status to those of Prophets and other religious figures.

Without hadith, there would be no clergy in Islam, which is how it was originally supposed to be. Because understanding the Quran does not require the help of a clergyman. However, getting into the details of the hadith and the layers and layers of theology that has been built on top of it has brought into existence the theocrats in Islam.........

P.S. Malik99, now that you have seen a hadith that says most of the people in hell will be women, do you now believe it fully. Is that going to change your perception of women?

#43 hamidmji
I`ll go a step further and say that success & happiness in life probably have little to do with whether your parents stayed married or were divorced. A friend of mine who had left a broken home when he was just 16, recently graduated with an MD PhD from Harvard-MIT (a joint program) and has accepted an appointment at a prestigious university. He obviously found support in institutions outside of his immediate family. There are similar stories in India also of kids who ran away from an abusive parent and eventually made good. However, for marginally talented kids family environment probably offers better support.

#43 hamidmji
I`ll go a step further and say that success & happiness in life probably have little to do with whether your parents stayed married or were divorced. A friend of mine who had left a broken home when he was just 16, recently graduated with an MD PhD from Harvard-MIT (a joint program) and has accepted an appointment at a prestigious university. He obviously found support in institutions outside of his immediate family. There are similar stories in India also of kids who ran away from an abusive parent and eventually made good. However, for marginally talented kids family environment probably offers better support.

#37 ZahraJ
No it`s not some male or female, it`s the society as a whole. That`s what culture is. Sort of like dowry which is usually demanded by the bride`s mother but not the fault of a male or a female.
Regarding divorce itself, divorce rates increase as women become more financially independent. Contrarywise, marriage age has also been going down as job opportunities increase. What this portends for lasting marriages, it will be interesting to see.

re: #51 by Urstruly:
These Hadith are but Hadith attributed to the Prophet. Hadith is not Quran, it is a choice whether we choose them or not. Many a hadith were fabricated, and these seems to be prime examples. If the Quran states that men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah, then how can women be more prone to more sinful acts. This is nothing but the lurid imaginations of Medieval Islamic compilers of the hundreds of thousands of Prophet Muhamad`s sayings run amuck.
Muslims are not required to put their faith in Hadith as uncorruptible, only Quran enjoys such a status. The Ahadith were not even compiled till centuries after the inception of Islam. I find it ridiculous and illogical when Muslims quote Hadith as if they were quoting the verses of the Quran. The hadith were compiled by men, fallible and biased. Last time I checked they were not prophets but mere scholars if I can use that word. One of the main reasons, Muslims on the whole are still stuck in the middle ages is because most of them do not read the main scripture , i.e. Quran but rely upon the hundreds of thousands of Hadith. I cannot fathom the prophet speaking so much, as it has been my experience that Wise men limit their speech, and also because the prophet was speaking not just his own thoughts in his lifetime but also the verses of the Quran. I personally put no faith in Hadith and it is not required of me as a Muslim either in my opinion. This is all I need;
``I believe in God, in His Angels, His Scriptures, His Prophets, the Day of Judgement, and in the fact that every thing good or bad (in the world) is pre-destined by God the Exalted, and in the resurrection after death.``

Response to Post #44 and #50 and #43.

You tell him Zahra, You go Girl!!!! Most eastern males can be nincompoops at some point in their lives. It is the mothers, sisters, wives and daughters of men that keep their screws tightened.sane.

I agree with Malik99:
Urstruly, please do tell how you arrived at that conclusion about women`s requiring their husband`s approval to go to heaven. Last time I checked, wasnt that decision the domain of God?

Mr Hamidm, Congratulations to you that you can understand and appreciate the incomprehensible writing of Jay, as it seems to be written in an English language I dont know, and not to mention filled with insensitive, chauvanistic and accusatory comments. Eeeeck!!!!!!!!

Romair

Yes, I have read several books written by Deobandi, Wahabi, Brelvi, Hanfi, hanbali, shafai, maliki and jafferi scholars on the methods on how, Qura`n and Ahadith were collated, compiled, and preserved. There is no difference of opinion on voracity of either by any Muslim except Quadiyanis and Pervezis. Quadiyanis are declared non-Muslims by all schools of Muslim thought around the globe, whereas Pervezis are a lunatic fringe who are in the process of extinction just like their predecessors - Mutazzalites.

As for the timing of either Qura`n and Hadith is concerned, Qura`n was edited and collated by Holy Prophet himself, who under his own supervision prepared a group of Muslims who memorized the Qura`n and also written it on parchments etc. It is Holy Prophet himself who named chapters, and also arranged the verses in them. That is the reason there are several Medinite Surahs, which contain several Meccan verses and vice versa. It is preserved to this detail that we know where Holy Prophet asked us to stop in the middle of a sentence and where he made it optional. Does any other book in the world do that?

So after skeptically analyzing the methods by which Qura`n and Ahadith were preserved I believe that Qura`n is a living miracle which hasn`t been altered by even a dot over the centuries. Printing Press is a very recent invention. I belive that first Quran was printed sometime in early 1800s but if you compare a Qura`n written 500 years ago by someone in Indonesia by hand with that of someone written in Morroco at the same time, you will not find a difference. God Himself has taken responsibility to preserve it and it is also the miracle of this book that even children can memorize the book of this volume and size. There is no other book in the world with such attribute.

The differences among Muslims on the matters of Hadith had become known as its compilation started to begin, which is apprximately 150-300 years after Prophets departure. But it does not mean that Ahadith did not exist in the interim period. Actaully they did, in the form of journals, parchments, and other books written by several of Holy Prophet`s companions. It is actually the collation that began 150 years later. Ahadith were being preserved on parchments even in the life of Holy prophet himself. According to one hadith Holy Prophet himself approved of this method. How do we know all this? because those parchments, journals and books are still preserved and available, mostly in Topp Kapa museum in Turkey. Ottomen`s did an incredible job to gather and preserve them. In a short post like this the whole method of cross-references that was used to verify the authencity of various hadiths can not be elaborated. In short, the method is so extensive that out of a body of 500K+ ahadith, less that 7000 of them are considered authentic; 95% among them are shared by Shias and Sunnis.

Without Hadith Qura`n cannot be understood. This can be explained by an anology. Suppose, in a class room there are students, a textbook, and a teacher. In our real life a textbook is an unalterable text, which is explained to the students by the teacher who uses his insight and knowledge to explain the textbook to his students. While he does that students take notes according to their understanding of text and the lecture. Since each student has different level of undersatnding and comprehension the notes of each student slightly vary from the other. Consider this that the teacher is the Holy prophet (pbuh) and the students are his companions, and the text is the Qura`n. Sometimes Holy Prophet explained the Qura`n verbally and sometimes by example; just like a teacher sometimes performs experiments in the lab to expalin a certain theory and students take notes of their observation.

After the class the students compare their notes and their differences become apparent. Just as it is not impossible to reach a consensus on our wordly notes, similarly it is not impossible to reach a consensus on ahadith. And consensus on hadith manifests itself thru four sunni schools of thought and one Jaffari.

The absolute necessity of Ahadith can be understood by another example. In Surrah Baqara, Allah has ordered Muslims to prepare and keep a will of inheritence and then in fourth Chapter, Al-Nisa, Allah stipulates definite portions of ones inheritence. So the question is that when Allah has allocated definite portions for inheritors then where is room for a will? So if you are a Quadiani and Pervezi or any other anti-Muslim bigot, you will jump like a monkey screaming that the Book of God is contradictory as we so often see. This apparent contradiction is as a matter of fact explained by Hadiths. If you understand this Hadith you will not find contradiction in book. The Holy prophet exlained that - the
first use of the inheritance left by a deceased is to pay off his (or her) debt,
funeral expenses, and other financial obligations. The remaining part is then
split in the proportions of 1/3rd and 2/3rd. An individual is allowed to
allocate that 1/3rd of his inheritance towards worthy social causes, charity, or
a gift to an individual in a will. The 2/3rd portion is split among a host of
primary and residual relatives of the deceased in preordained fixed proportions. See; there is no contradiction now, is there?

Shore Sahib # 34

All your contentions about ahadith are valid. But all these contentions have been vigorously debated, analyzed, and fought over about 1200 to 1400 years ago. Since then a consensus has emerged about the autheticity of several ahadith. This consensus manifests itself through five schools of thought - four sunni schools and one Jafari. Life has moved on since then, wheel has been invented, lets move on, and enhance our life instead of going back and re-inventing the wheel. There is still room for plenty of debate as long as Ijtehad is going on. We have to lead from where our predecessors have left off unless all our predecessors were crooks then by the same logic we are also crooks and our successor generations should not trust us either. Please let go of the frivilous.

RE: # 59 Urstruly

Talaq sey Ibtadaa, Hadith pey Ikhtamam
Tu hi bata Ae humnawa, Puhncha kahan Safr-e-Kalaam

Mr. Urstruly,
A consensus may have emerged about the validity of certain Hadith, so what! As an educated, independent critical thinking Muslim, I am not required to put my faith in such a consensus, if logic begs to differ. I firmly believe that God has revealed Quran to be understood by every Muslim man, woman and child. He has made it easy to understand, and hundreds of thousands of Hadith are not necessary to comprehend the meaning of Quran. Hadith can be helpful in furthering one`s understanding, but that is what they are, just another means to further understanding. THey are NOT, I repeat NOT on the same par as the Quran. It is not required of our faith as Muslims to believe in Hadith. If a certain Hadith contradicts one`s interpretation of a Quranic verse, but agrees with the majority view, it is still imperative for that individual to negate its validity. One of the major problems with Islamic society at large is that the wheel in itsself is corrupted, or skewed. Yes, In my opinion it needs to be re-invented. Only then an Islamic Renaissance would come about, when Muslims arent afraid to say, Bukhari was but a man! The Schools of Jurisprudence are stuck in the tenth century!
The Quran is all we need. It is simple, easy to understand, and promises salvation to its followers, and not to the followers of Sahih Muslim or Sahih Bukhari. THe point of contention between Shias and Sunnis is one Hadith,
`` For whomever I am Lord over, So is Ali``.
Also Mr. Urstruly, Last time I checked you do not sit upon the throne of God. Only God makes the decision whether the Ahmedi Sect of Islam is within the folds of Islam. I dont care what the consensus is among the world`s Islamic nations about Ahmedis. If a Ahmedi proclaims La ilaha il allah Muhammad u Rasool u Allah, that is all the confirmation I need of their faith. Who am I to tell them that they arent Muslims.
Also please be more specific about those books and parchments you say are preserved in the Topkapi Serray Museum in Istanbul, Turkey. The earliest extant copies of Islamic scripture and manuscripts are from the tenth century A.D and even those are extremely rare.
I think you should read books written by western scholars of Islam such as Anne Marie Schimmel, Karen Armstrong, Arthur F. Buehler, and Syed Hossein Nasr to understand unbiased views of the origins of Quran, Hadith, and Jurisprudence.

Urstruly (#58, 59) …

Based on ahadith … your mullahs also believe in a two-thousand year old prophet … who will descend to earth one day, on shoulders of angels. Hey, if it is recorded, it must be correct …

There’re always other ahadith … where the Prophet said … whoever changes his religion, kill him … and where he had people killed for adultery, or blasphemy, or for watching too much television …

How does all this explain Quran … I fail to see. I am sure Malik has an answer …

More on ahadith … By declaring unanimously that Ahamdis are non-Muslims … your mullahs proved the authenticity of a hadith, according to which … one sect of Islam will be on the right path, and it will be opposed by all other sects. Would you like to see the reference to this one?

Abrogation of Quran … It is your mullahs who insist on abrogating verses of Quran. Just ask Naqsh to confirm. I once did … and was astonished to discover the intricacies of the nasikh/mansookh (abrogating/abrogated verses of Quran) views on Quran. According to this … there are 2 ways to abrogate verses of Quran … but I’ll digress ...

Ahmadi-Muslims see no contradictions in Quran … and accept all of it as the Word of Allah. Get your facts straight … unless your reading skills are degrading as fast as your intellect ... in which case, you should consider becoming an imam ...

sajal 40,

In the pak spciety of today, convent education is anachronistic. Most of the convents schools were established long before the hoodoods became the guiding light of pak society and as far as I know, no new christian schools or places of worship of any other religion were built in the last 25 years.

As pak society evolves, more and more of products of convents like Aisha will be in conflict with the prevailing social norms. Divoce is not a big thing in most western societies as it is consistant with the evolving social values. In pakistan, more women are being shut behind the purdhas when compared to the days, as you say, when benazir was young. There are more honour killings now than ever before. Jirga is expected to get legal status in Sindh.

What is really needed is for the educated of pakistan to accept the reality, wait for the golden age when a bearded general will take over the country. Help this evolution of pakistan, close down the convents, push the country along the vision of its creators, islamic republic of pakistan. by the way, lailaha illalla, pakistan ka matlab kya.

Do not forget, Mushy has declared that TNT os live and well, and should guide pak policies. Muslims are seperate nation, tell me my friend, where is the role for convents in a land moulded by TNT.

Urstruly #50: Interesting analysis.

I have debated this, and similar issues, with quite a few individuals with an inclination similar to yours. And within a few comments, they tend to disappear Hopefully, you will not disappear. Let us take each issue one by one:

As Muslims, we assume the Quran to be the genuine word of God. If we don`t believe that then the whole concept of Islam goes away, and the debate doesn`t exist to begin with. So let`s start from the Quran being genuine (at least in the belief of Muslims). Now we move to the hadith. Could you kindly answer the following:

1. Can you point me to any mention in the Quran of the existence of Mr. Bukhari. Anything pointing to the fact that Bukhari and others would arrive and list the hadith (as they saw them) and we should all follow them. Not indirect extrapolated references, but a direct one.

2. ``But it does not mean that Ahadith did not exist in the interim period. Actaully they did, in the form of journals, parchments, and other books written by several of Holy Prophet`s companions. It is actually the collation that began 150 years later.``

Are you suggesting that all the hadith, that have ended up in the various books, were written down in journals and parchments. This is obviously not the case. And how in the world can you assume that the ones that were written down were genuine. Were they signed by the Prophet? Obviously not.

Is there a direct reference to parchments given in the hadith books. Of course not. The references are based more on word of mouth passing of hadith, than anything else. If even one wasn`t written down, they become unauthentic, as a whole. And hence cannot be used as a basis of jurisprudence.

Infact, the hadith books themselves weren`t authorized by Muhammad in any way. Why didn`t he just collect and organize them like the Quran in his lifetime?

3. ``According to one hadith Holy Prophet himself approved of this method.``

You are using a hadith to justify the concept of hadith itself. Can you point to any references to this approval in the Quran. The Quran refers to everything from houris to birds to insects. One would think that something as important as hadith and their recording on parchment would be directly mentioned in it.

4. ``Without Hadith Qura`n cannot be understood.``

This is an incorrcet comment. And could be considered blasphemous. There is absolutely no comment in the Quran indicating this. Quite the contrary. The Quran states that, Islam, the religion has been completed with the Quran. It states,

````This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion.`` - Qur`an 5:3 ``

It does not state that a person named Bukhari will come and then religion will be completed.

Hadith are a layer of religion, created on top of the Quran, unnecesarily. They should only be used for historical purposes. And not for jurisprudence. For the simple reason, that they are the word of a man (men), like Bukhair, who have then quoted other men, who quote their forefathers, trailing back everything to the Prophet. It is logically impossible for such a mechanism to not have errors, regardless of how sincere everyone may have been, in their efforts.............

Essentially, hadith give Bukhari and the Sahaba he quotes a status almost equivalent to the Quran.........

P.S. Just out of curiosity, can you point me to the physical parchment that was referenced for the hadith that you have mentioned: describing hell to be filled with a majority of women. I would like the exact parchment and its current location and authenticity. Has it been filed and carbon dated? If it is in Turkey, I would like to check it out on my next trip to the area. Something declaring 50% of the population fo the world to be the majority in hell is no small matter and should be authenticated, before being thrown around..........

Urstruly,

``God Himself has taken responsibility to preserve it...``

Always qualify your statements. I have a Quran at home that has a few penciled in corrections that were made by the Imam that was teaching us how to recite...the dot-for-dot, and word-for-word preservation is clearly nonsense.