If Godhra did not happen…

Re: # 46
#46 by mohar11 on January 31, 2005 6:34am PT
I do not want to get into the findings of Justice Banerjee report but only on the evidences which were gathered by him including various statements and depositions.....ofcourse it had a political angle.....but so has Justice Nanavati Commission. These are very complex legal issues which we need not get into ........it might be stupid to say that because the fire started from inside hence the act was done by the kar sewaks...........in all probability the mob outside started the flame after the rumours got circulated.............

And the tragedy of Bihar is that there is no alternative to laloo in Bihar who can be trusted by the muslims.....Laloo is certainly not PROMOTED by the IMs.....it is a strategic alliance like Congress or the LEft with Laloo because LAloo best addresses the concerns of the IM about any recurrence of the Gujrat episode else where - especially in the BIMARU belt..........IM knows that Laloo cannot bring them any prosperity- but atleast they would live without fear of another holocaust like in Gujrat.............they prefer to pay ransom to the kidnappers than to live in fear of being killed and raped by the rioters............

Ballukahn Re: # 42
//...despite all the kidnappings and corruption under Laloo, we all know that the Bihar administration can not dare to act in the manner they did in Gujrat against the muslims..//

I expected better sense from you. If tomorrow, for whatever reasons, muslims enbloc dumped laloo and voted for another party - how long do you think it will take for laloo to engineer a riot against muslims? Before you can say - bismillah.

Laloo is a savior of muslims is as good as Modi is a champion of hindus. These guys are criminals par excellence who are playing extreme politics for their own interest. They want the votes and then the loot. They can do anything to get what they want. A party and a govt which has crossed all paths of civilty and turned a functioning state to utter anarchy is not savior of anybody. Laloos don;t give a flip about secularism or any such thing.

It`s shame that laloo is being promoted and accepted a savior of anybody. It`s a shame that secularism has come down rest on shoulders of thugs and criminals like him. That`s very bad news for secularims in India.

Hindu suicide squads make just about as much sense as Muslim peace marchers.

And oh , by the way , all those muslim women who said they were raped , LIED. All the muslim men who got killed , commited SUICIDE. Just to defame the hindu community. To malign the good name of Shri.Narendra Modi. Just wanted to make that clear. Atleast , thats as much a possibility as the one about `hindu suicide squads`. Right ?

Not a word yet from FV-ji regarding the missing link in `Justice` (haha) Banerjee`s report. The 1800 strong muslim mob. Not a word about them.

Justice (haha) Benerjee`s report is a fraud not merely because it was done to improve Lalu`s prospects in Bihar state where 25% of the people are muslim ....but because it completely ignores the presence of the 1800 strong muslim mob that collected in the station at precisely the same time that the train arrived.

How can anybody miss this crucial fact ? I know FV-ji is anti-national and hence biased...but what about morally upright individuals like Nasah and others ? Hello!!!

Again I repeat... WHAT ABOUT THE 1800 STRONG MUSLIM MOB ?

Re: # 31

Well said nasah saheb.....I wholly agree since the ``facts`` about the complicity and Ommissions and collusion of the BJP administration with the rioters in Gujrat is getting obfuscated in rhetorics and now we only need to stick to the evidences appraised by Justice Banerjee........and despite all the kidnappings and corruption under Laloo, we all know that the Bihar administration can not dare to act in the manner they did in Gujrat against the muslims...................

Why are Hindus ignoring the shrill rhetoric of `secular` forces? Why don`t they go out of the way to bring the lampoons responsible for riots to justice? Because the credentials of these self-professed Gods of secularism are dubious. The same people who hogged the camera limelight after the gruesome incidents in Gujarat, were tongue-tied, indifferent and even acted as apologists of marauders when heinous crimes were committed against Hindu people. Why don`t they crawl out of their rat holes when crimes are committed against one community? Or is there one-sided hypocritical harangue reserved against Hindus?

Here is a piece from Kashmir genocide

``As evening falls, the exhortations become louder and shriller. Three taped slogans are repeatedly played the whole night from mosques: `Kashmir mei agar rehna hai, Allah-O-Akbar kehna hai` (If you want to stay in Kashmir, you have to say Allah-O-Akbar); `Yahan kya chalega, Nizam-e-Mustafa` (What do we want here? Rule of Shariah); `Asi gachchi Pakistan, Batao roas te Batanev san` (We want Pakistan along with Hindu women but without their men).``

The full article is at http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/jan/19kanch.htm

The troublesome logic followed by these people is that Hindu lives are expendable. So, killing of thousands of Hindus in Kashmir is not genocide, killing in Gujarat is. Burning alive of people in a train is not an act of terrorism, burning in a bakery is. It would be delusional to expect anything but nonsense from someone who has made hate-mongering the raison d’etre of existence as can be witnessed by “I have been ‘tolerating’ Hindus, but I get no credit for it.”

How cheap can one get?

It is not off-topic. But Hindus are realizing, they are cornered, and in their own country, and that they are not safe in most parts. No offense, this is the truth. The governments can`t do anything to protect their interests. They won`t listen to their demands. The report is laughable, and so is your ``article``

Ferzana,

Communal riots are a blight on India and a symbol of barbarism in our society, no matter who initiates it. It is high time that we as a people step up and declare it to be an abomination that will not be tolerated anywhere in India. If we want to portray a progressive image as an emerging power, we have got to get rid of this evil of communl rioting once and for all.

I am not sure how severe our legal system is in terms of punishing perpetrators and particularly instigators of communal riots. If there are adequate laws, how strict is the enforcement? Also, there should be an independent agency like the election commission that investigates without government interference, any communal rioting and identifies the participants and instigators. In my opinion, anyone with provable links to communal rioting should be sentenced to, at a minimum, 10-15 years in prison without any parole. Of course, if you actually indulged in violence the appropriate punishment should be applicable. If we throw the book at people who are involved in riots, it will soon disappear from our lives.

As a journalist, why don`t you bring up this issue in your writings and address how to eradicate this evil from our society? I am sure that there are many people like me who will whole-heatedly support such an effort.

FV, why should not Hindus see a conspiracy theory in the way the enquiry was done, in the way the report was prepared ? If my memory serves right, even on day two, when the whole nation was dumbstruck after the carnage, media reported it as the doing of a ``mob`` and not a muslim mob. Secularism worked there. It is disgusting watching the likes of FV go hyper when it is to fight the ghosts of Hindu fundamentalism but turn a blind-eye when it comes to the protection of those of Hindus. You have succeeded in turning me into a Hindu, again, thanks. P-Secs, when will you learn calling spade a spade ?

#11 by mumbaichick

[The propsect of having Hindu suicide squads is too outlandish in my opinion. Hindus do not have a suicidal mentality and the motivational prospect of going to heaven - there is no such thing.]

It seems you are new to Chowk. I suggest you read some of FV`s other writings. You wouldn`t be surprised to see such outlandish claims then.

Sometime back, Zee TV aired the story of a Muslim woman who married for the second time when her husband, an Army Jawan who was held prisoner in Pakistan, didn`t return for 4 years after being declared a deserter. The Panchayat, whose members were primarily Muslim, decreed that the woman rejoin her first husband. FV wasted no time in accusing the media of making a spectacle of the Muslim community.

Why is Godhra-Gujarat such a big issue?

Because it marks a departure from the usual trend of Hindus getting butchered, raped and their holy places destroyed by Jihadi vultures. Why is Ishrat Jehan so enraged? Because there was widespread rioting and the government looked the other way. This is against the principles of secularism which not only condones but also encourages murder, slaughter and decapitation of Hindus. The ultimate aim of secularism is desecration of Hindu shrines, taking Hindu women into concubinage and destruction of Hindu culture. Anything that goes to the contrary, and the anti-national brigade fed on a stead diet of Ambhi, Jaichand and Mir Jafar, will cry hoarse.

These are the same people whose response to genocide of Pandits in Kashmir was muted by their Jehadi leanings. These people gloated at the bomb blasts in Mumbai and the evil attack on Akshardham temple. They congratulated each other when that thug kallu mian kidnapped Kanchan Mishra - a married woman with children and forcibly converted her to Islam. These people leave no stone unturned in maligning the Indian nation-state that offers succour and shelter to people who have been hounded out of their homes - Tibetans, Parsis, Bahais, Jews, Syrian Christians...a pattern that is unpalatable to their suicidal, maniacal self.

Again and again, they write in their excusable English, trying to highlight gaps where none exist, fanning hatred, spewing venom and upholding their sacred mantra - death to India.

Such an attitude does not promote Hindu-Muslim amity.

For those who have been mourning about the lack of ‘investigation’ (I know nothing can beat the impeccable record of what Narendra Modi discovers), we are indeed talking about an investigating commission here. What a pity, it does not suit your agendas….

I am aware that not all those who died in the Godhra train were kar sevaks. But do you know of any group that decides to be a suicide squad think about who is in the vicinity?

In the whole article not once have I used the term ‘Hindus’ (the single usage is from a quote and it is not a negative reference) or implied the involvement of the community and yet this is what one gets in response:

“Gosh - you people under-estimate us so much. You hardly know us , do you ? Go ahead , and spread the word about how the hindus burnt themselves alive. Sooner than later , people of India will react - the same way the people of Gujarat did , following the events of Godhra.”

Us?? You people?? Would it be a conspiracy theory then if I say that a sizeable number of Hindus identify with the Hindutva parties? If you read the above quote, would you say I am “dreaming” about the fissures, the Us vs. Them divide that is now festering in many minds? That there is a section of people who do indeed believe in the ridiculous action-reaction theory?

In the past few months I have been talking about how often the magnanimity of “we feel sorry about what happened in Gujarat” is invariably counteracted with “but you know…Godhra started it”.

What else would get someone so agitated that he has to state: “Lastly , going strictly by law , Modi is as much of a criminal as you are. So when you call Modi a criminal , you are only expressing your opinion , and perhaps the opinion of those who believe that either the hindus burnt themselves or bloody deserved it anyway. As far as the people of Gujarat are concerned...they re-elected Modi to power . With an absolute majority. Modi remains the chief minister of India`s best run and financially most successful state.”

I would like to make this clear: I was talking about the kar sevaks on that train. There is no question of my even implying that Hindus deserved it. And Modi is a criminal not because he has an ‘opinion’, for god’s sake.
- - -
“Has any government committe been able to prove that riots after godhra were establishment sponsored?” and “How would you feel if, after another commission, launched by another government with a different motivation, were to say that the innocent Muslims burnt alive in Ahemedabad had actually committed self-immolation to bring bad-name to the BJP Govt?”

I would not be given this opportunity because Mr. Modi, Mr. Advani and our former PM Mr. Vajpayee have gone shouting from the rooftops that Gujarat happened as a reaction…you see, they justified it already. Go check out their statements. And don’t forget to add Praveen Togadia and Bal Thackeray to the list of luminaries who have been gloating about it.

“Indian Hindus dont committ Suicide attacks...Alas, 72 virgins await none of us in heaven!”

Having to deal with 72 virgins is no less suicidal, if that is the sort of thing that floats your boat. More seriously, unless you are a member of any of the saffron parties/groups, then this was not addressed to you. I am trying hard not to bring ‘Hindus’ into this, but it looks like there is a great upsurge of sympathy for what is so delectably called, “he`s a funny fringe, that Bal Thackrey”. What the heck is so funny about a devious man whose party members were getting men from one community to drop their pants while they themselves were hoarding armaments? Who goes up on the podium and insults people with the crudest language and incites a community to go fight another?
- - -
“The reason why I would wait for nanavati and not believe banerjee is because of laloo yadav.”

“If state government has paid money to buy report for being burned then blame it on Modi otherwise members of BJP are also individuals with their own emotions.”

“And his word is heralded as the truth and nothing but the truth by our psuedo-secular hindu hating media and anti-nationals like yourself.”

Laloo Yadav was the only politician who stood up against the march to Ayodhya in December 1992. I have already asked the questions about the EC…Modi used Godhra before so there is no question of the BJP following…they started it.

And sure, BJP members have emotions and they act on their individual whims. Modi’s hands are clean. He is an angel…wow, what next? Isn’t this the ‘disciplined’ party? But then they have mastered the art of talking with a forked tongue…get the RSS/VHP to make incendiary statements and put on the mask of goodness…and then quote the combine as your reason for not being able to be ‘moderate’. What a bunch of slimeballs.
- - -
“Again, this statement shows how trivial are hindu sentiments for you by commenting on ‘trishuls’. Trishul is a symbol of Bhagwan Shiva.”

This is so facetious. Here is what I wrote, “Since the Hindutva parties do not have any intellectual ammunition left, save for a few trishuls and many myths, they rake up issues that end up making them look like fools.” The Hindutva parties are using the symbol, misusing it. (And btw, if I am not wrong, the kar sevaks were shouting ‘Jai Sri Ram’, who is considered an avatar of Lord Vishnu, isn’t it?)

“ `Muslim Secularism` (if there be such a thing!)?”

God forbid that there should be such a thing. There is no Muslim-Hindu-Christian-Jew-Rastafarian secularism. Those who believe there ought to be such labels are completely off the mark. Secularism exists for itself and not as an add-on. It has NOTHING to do with religion…it can subsume a religion but is not defined by it.

“In India, the President (Kalam) is a Muslim, the PM (Manmohan) is Sikh, & the Power-Behid-the-Throne (Sonia) is a Catholic! This, in a country where 82% of the citizens are Hindu....that can ONLY happen in a Secular Democracy! What more proof do you want?”

So, if you are talking about a secular democracy, then cut out the crap about 82 per cent of the population being the ``best protection”. No one needs protection from any group, if you have a Constitution that was drafted with the express purpose of not differentiating between people along religious lines.

The President, the PM and the person referred to as the power behind the throne ought to represent the country in their official capacity and not their private, religious ones, if they have any. It is a tribute to our uniformity in diversity that all the people mentioned have hair that reaches at least the nape of the neck…

PS: Let us stop this façade about faking it. If this is what educated, urban India represents, then Narendra Modi IS a hero. People DO believe that the Gujarat riots had a solid foundation. And a person who questions the role of the Establishment in pushing a sizeable number of its population against the wall is termed “anti-national”.

I am not devastated simply because my loyalty lies with Rome and not Nero and his apologists and admirers. And this is a metaphor, just in case it does not register.

I have every right to ask questions as I live the life of a responsible citizen.

this is in no way, shape or form minimizing the murderous carnage and damage in gujarat, or denying that the torching of living beings, and murdering and the destruction is a crime against humanity, but great care must be taken when we compare one genocide to another, and measure one genocide against the other.

nasah sahib`s declaration of it ``topping the nazi ovens`` is a statement that suggests minimizing the agony, and the brutality that millions of jewish prisoners in concentration camps suffered. that they were gassed and thrown into ovens, and murdered in front of their loved ones is no less horrific than what some of us have watched in horror, on film in gujarat. or rwanda, or delhi.

to respond to what adolf hitler said about who afterall remembers the armenians, many of us do, and we remember the gujaratis and the memory is even more painful given that people in power who failed to put a stop to this are still in power.

statements like ``topping the nazi ovens`` and ``india is a secular democracy BECAUSE of its murderous hindutva minority`` say more about the person making them rather than what they are rallying against. and shrillness takes quite a bit away even from emotions that can`t be avoided in remembering such human tragedies.

why do we seek to top one brutality over the other? the loss of one life under ``normal`` circumstances is difficult and painful enough let alone the unjustified murder of thousands, millions of human beings. can we really measure such tragedies against each other?

(i will now return back to my respite)

Re: # 31
//...Godhra is a blot on the forehead of Hindu community...//

Godhra is where hindus were massacred - so why is it a ``blot`` on hindus? Blame the gujrat riots afterwards on hindus - god knows hindus screw@d up big time on that one - but why blame the hindus for their own massacre? That`s just hideous.

And what about the massacre at Akshardham temple? Whose forehead the blot goes for that one? Or is that already forgotten?

When can we expect the focus on muslim communalism that is so prevalent in Indian muslim communities? This was a good ``opportunity`` to do so - this was the time to take actions on both sides of the communalism coin. Looks like it has been wasted. Laloos and Modis have taken over where a dispassioanate and clear-headed action was warranted.

So go head - keep putting blots on each other`s forehead with your heart`s content. After a few more years - there will be yet another godhra/gujrat. And the ``blot on forehead`` game will start all over again.

Shame!!!