Children of Dictatorship

RE: #27 by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 5:38am PT

I am glad that you are catching my drift.

I do believe that, under the present circumstances, Pakistani people are not fit for democracy. If this is adding insult to injury, I am sorry, but nothing nice you or I can say here that is going to change ground realities.

There is an operating word in Urdu that fits the bill here:

“Shaoor”

Shaoor ki kami hae.


We have a “Jaahil Qaum.” And ignoring the obvious is not helping.

It is time to acknowledge the facts. It is time to ask the question why democracy is not sustainable in Pakistan? Why it does not carry any real value with the masses? Why do they not come out on the streets when a dictator overthrows an “elected” – read bought through the feudal-politician alliance – government?

SK #25 I think the single most important factor in any country`s success as a democracy is, to use the analogy of ``the dog that did not bark``. This of course is from a Sherlock Holmes story where the famous detective points to something that did NOT happen as the explanation. In otherwords, in India the military did not try to take over political power whereas in Pakistan this has become the norm. When Ayub came to power, his main excuse was frequent changes in government - ignoring the fact that there is nothing wrong with this as long as it is done within the constitution. The Italians in the 1950`s had even more frequent changes in government than Pakistan, but there was no Ayub Khan there and people had already seen the mess dictators create. Mussolini may have made things more efficient on the surface (his famous claim being that he made the trains run on time), but his militarism led Italy into a ruinous war.

So, the plain and simple fact is that the military is in power in Pakistan because that makes the generals and brigadiers very rich. To say that the Pakistani people are not fit for democracy is simply to add insult to injury.

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RE: #23 by tahmed32 on February 12, 2005 6:23pm PT

The single most important factor in India’s success as a democracy is the break-up of its feudal system in 1947. Jawaharlal Nehru was smart enough to do this right off the bat. In india’s case it was not vice versa as you suggest.

Nehru also realized that religion had no place in the affairs of the State, and hence India is a secular State.

Another point to be noted is that Indian education system is better than that of Pakistan. Democracy needs breathing space. Musharraf had the right idea; only he petered out when push came to shove. Hence the present stagnant situation, which is not taking us anywhere.

My heartiest congratulations to all fellow Pakistanis. Our feerless leader Gen Musharraf is on the front page of the Parade magazine....as the seventh worst dictator of the world.

soulkeeper: ``See democracy can only work when the masses are properly educated and feudalism is completely eradicated.``

Jesus S. Blessed Christ Almighty. I assume you said that with a straight face!! The biggest duffers, the rejects from colleges - they are the ones who go to the army (I should know - my father used to select these duffers for ISB, and the entire selection board used to joke about making sure no one with a high IQ got into the army).

More seriously - are you aware of a country named India (if you look carefully at the map, you will find it is a big triangular landmass to the east of Pakistan) has a democracy. Even teeny weeny african countries like kenya have democracy. Even dinky little latino nations have democracy. Altogether 118 countries around the world have democracies. Sure they eradicated feudalism - but BECAUSE they had a democracy, not a bunch of tin pot generals. So get your cause and effect straight, my friend. Repeat after me:

Democracy gets rid of feudalism.
Military officers serve the nation, not vice versa.
Demcracy reduces military expenditures, saving money for education.

(Start saying these kind of things. As things stand you are the last Pakistani on earth who says what you said above. At least I hope so. Even military boys know they are just kidding when they pretend to be smart and educated.)

RE: #19 by KHS on February 12, 2005 0:21am PT

Dear KHS:

Religion is only as good as it serves humanity. And I will leave it at that.


RE: #20 by bbabu on February 12, 2005 0:29am PT

[Unless culture is fundamentally immoral (which is hard to believe) corruption is a symptom not a root cause. Why do petty govt servants indulge in corruption ? They need to acquire symbols or status of power in addition to bare necessities. An army officer with 2 kids would not mind having two homes in a decent neighborhood in Karachi.]


The culture is fundamentally corrupt my man, or else we would not be having this discussion. And its almost like you are trying to justify bad behaviour. Besides having two homes in a decent neighborhood in Karachi is hardly a bad thing. It’s how you get to it that matters. Call it “Eemaan ki kamzori, if you relate with that sort of thing.”


[`` 3. Jail ALL the hate-teaching mullahs, no exceptions. ``
Kept religion out of politics]

Are you asking me to keep religion out of politics? I got news for you! It can’t be done. It can’t be done because in Pakistan religion is very much a part of the political scene (Jinnah is turning in his grave). It should not be, but it is; hence, the argument about separation of Religion and State. See religion should be a personal thing. If that were not the case, and if ‘tableegh’ was necessary, then why stop at Mohammad as being the last prophet.



[I do not know why conservative elders are a problem. Most of Indian grandparents were as conservative as their Pakistani counterparts. Some of them are far sighted in a few respects like education especially for women.]

First let me tell you this: “Conservative” is not a good word, unless you want to save money. So there is nothing proud about being a conservative adult.

About education of women and treating women as equal, if you notice I never mentioned that in my earlier post. The reason being, that it should a given provided we take the steps that I mention. Only a chauvinist can think that women rights are something that you concede. All human beings are equal, remember?


[`` 1. Throw all the political class in prison for few years. (and I mean without sofas and cable TV) ``

Who will govern the country if you throw out the politicians ?]


The answer to that question is another question:

What has Pakistan’s political class achieved after Zia’s death, besides bickering and questioning the cricket team, of course?

All the major amendments have been done by the army, they only undid them to ensure that they can fill their pockets. They certainly have not done any significant legislative work, only half-baked bills that barely pass just because they were being talked about in the press. At this rate if Musharraf had put a bunch of schoolteachers or even bank clerks in the assemblies they certainly would have out performed our politicians. It’s not a big mountain to climb you see. Any conscientious and respected adult from the neighborhood would have done a better job and the country would have been better for it.

See democracy can only work when the masses are properly educated and feudalism is completely eradicated. Till then we would have to do with a pseudo system, provided all the politicians are in jail. Their afterlife for them should be tomatoes and eggs on the face and not violence, mind you.

Re: #14

Zia was a softie compared to ZAB. Zia would rather bribe you, then threaten you and then, finally, use force. Not that I`m saying he was a good guy or anything of that sort, far from it. Bhutto was by far the worst dictator we`ve had. Zia would let you alone, even get you a good government job, if you apologized and grovelled. Bhutto, well Bhutto was personally vindictive. That Zia never was, as far as I know.

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Dear SoulKeeper u simply wants the elimination of religion from all aspects of life. It is another kind of extremism which we can call *Liberal Extremism*. Extremism is extremely dangerous either it is with the name of religion or either on the name of modern need or enlightenment; there is a need of balance. A balance approach is much needed to run a tolerant society. Along with Madressas we should also review what is going wrong in our school systems, especially in schools affiliated with Cambridge system.

RE: #13 by bbabu on February 11, 2005 9:01am PT

[I have a hard time believeing a soft dictator like Zia can have such a negative impact on society. The real problem with Pakistani society (to some extent Indian society) is lack of other institutions - NGOs, press, political parties, movie industry, provincial governments etc.]

I agree with your assesment here. However, I would like to add a few additional points.

The main problem that Pakistan is facing today is corruption. When Musharraf launched the National Accountibility Bearu, it did not take him long to realize how extensive the task at hand was. he finally chickened out and had to make compromises.

What we needed was the most elaborate prison system in the history of mankind.

1. Throw all the political class in prison for few years. (and I mean without sofas and cable TV)

2. Create Zero tolerance for Bribary and theft of funds in public or Private sector.

3. Jail ALL the hate-teaching mullahs, no exceptions.

4. Jail the jirga elders. (six months should do, if not a repeat offender)

5. Close down the madressas and re-institute Junejo`s Nai Roshni school system (Fees maaf, kitaabein muft). And while we are at it, remove relegious content from school text books.

6 Seperate relegion from State.

And before you know it, Pakistan would be fine.

The question is, who can get this accomplished without getting assasinated?

Great article. Do note, it is not written by Afiya Shehrbano
As she point out in the footnote it is from the newspapers THE NEWS` Opinion section

but thanks for bringing it forward for Chowk readers Afiya. It was indeed a good read and a thought provoking one. Wish it would provoke action as well but we are so embroiled in the greed for money, such matters as equality have lost thier meaning for us.

So you people grew up on fast food. Well, so did we!! chanaa chor garam (used to cost 4 annas). Well written article, and look forward to reading it again to see exactly what it is folks like me - jilaa watan in the 1980`s, 90`s - missed. (annual short visits obviously dont count).

its all about economics, bread on the table, survival. i wasnt there but maybe the people got together for partition coz they were shown the economic repurcussions of a united india. maybe they were lead to believe that it wud be impossible to live under hindu rule. its still all about that. the rich are eating pasta. the middle class has its sabzi gosht. the poor have their two daalrotis a day, n they are ok, even if it means worshipping landlords.

the system is working. a cart wheel doesnt get punctured.

survival is what the youth of today have been taught and thats what the country is doing. barely surviving.

``soft``??
compared to whom?
he was the hardest dictator we have had...

I have a hard time believeing a soft dictator like Zia can have such a negative impact on society. The real problem with Pakistani society (to some extent Indian society) is lack of other institutions - NGOs, press, political parties, movie industry, provincial governments etc.