Children of Dictatorship
Afiya Shehrbano February 10, 2005
#44 Posted by tipushah on September 13, 2005 12:51:18 am
I really don`t see any substance in this article-cum-comment. One can`t just grab a beaten line and make an opera out of it. This country is managing its self despite of all odds. Give the ``do`ers`` some respect.
Evil is everywhere, I confront it on regular basis.
We learn to live with it, because one cannot dispose it off. There is no such thing as classic utopia! Where there is love, justice & truth everywhere.
I read almost every article of yours.
You pen has an alternate mind! Just hold a while before letting it flow out
Evil is everywhere, I confront it on regular basis.
We learn to live with it, because one cannot dispose it off. There is no such thing as classic utopia! Where there is love, justice & truth everywhere.
I read almost every article of yours.
You pen has an alternate mind! Just hold a while before letting it flow out
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#43 Posted by arjun_m on February 13, 2005 5:37:51 pm
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#42 Posted by jay on February 13, 2005 1:48:55 pm
Re: # 10
``Pakistani youth is very optimistic & they know what is their destination.`` ..
This is the classic pak response. No different from the recent pak expo 2005, pakistan is the best place to invest...great educated people blah blah all by the pakistanis them selves while the rest of the world declares that in 10 years pakistan will be a failed state, mushy is one among the worst ever dictators, pak troops have bribed the osama terrorists, gun ships are firing on pak nationals,,,,,.
Time to look at the reality. look at the crime in karachi, its links to the madrassas, its links to TNT and finally think of the time when those portraits have to be removed. There is no hope for pakistan with out denouncing TNT. It is an amoebic theory, it has given a mind set to the pakistanis that they have to keep looking for the other to eliminate. It was the hindus, then came the ahmadias, now i is the turn of the shias.
What the youth of pakistan needs is a total acceptance that TNT is a monster say it like what Atlaf Huassain has done.
``Pakistani youth is very optimistic & they know what is their destination.`` ..
This is the classic pak response. No different from the recent pak expo 2005, pakistan is the best place to invest...great educated people blah blah all by the pakistanis them selves while the rest of the world declares that in 10 years pakistan will be a failed state, mushy is one among the worst ever dictators, pak troops have bribed the osama terrorists, gun ships are firing on pak nationals,,,,,.
Time to look at the reality. look at the crime in karachi, its links to the madrassas, its links to TNT and finally think of the time when those portraits have to be removed. There is no hope for pakistan with out denouncing TNT. It is an amoebic theory, it has given a mind set to the pakistanis that they have to keep looking for the other to eliminate. It was the hindus, then came the ahmadias, now i is the turn of the shias.
What the youth of pakistan needs is a total acceptance that TNT is a monster say it like what Atlaf Huassain has done.
#41 Posted by ali_1 on February 13, 2005 11:47:17 am
post 35 thru 40........
interesting to see retired or close to retirement Pakistani males interacting like 4th graders.
interesting to see retired or close to retirement Pakistani males interacting like 4th graders.
#40 Posted by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 10:10:30 am
but...first he needs to wash his face. it his his own foul smell that causes echosqueek to start echosqueeking (the scientific term for gibberish).
#39 Posted by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 10:08:42 am
temporal #38 I am afraid abdul hate is beyond medics. ha! ha! maybe some electric shock treatments (like jay thakeray received).
#38 Posted by temporal on February 13, 2005 10:05:13 am
abdul hate is frothing and babbling...very predicitible...call medics;)
#37 Posted by echoboom on February 13, 2005 9:50:32 am
Q:How do the mutts know that they are mutts?
A:Just as a munafique knows he is a munaafique--by responding on cue!
Oh how the cantonement mutts drool and yelp in an orgasmic frenzy when the master approaches, whip in hand, to torture and persecute muslims and non-muslims alike all over the world.
The mutt scampers in delight; the mutt`s arse pulsates & throbs in that orgasm reward.
``pUr baybay misses you too , my goraa saab``?
Muslim Chaplain Slams Heavy-Handed US Tactics in Iraq
“We`ve never had any problem with women so we should not search and harass them,” said Hulwe.
CAIRO, February 13 (IslamOnline.net) – The only Muslim chaplain in the US army in Iraq has lambasted “unnecessarily heavy-handed tactics” against Iraqis, blaming the loss of many US lives on disrespect of the Muslim population.
“The better you act, the safer this area will be. If nothing else you`ll not give a reason for someone who is neutral to go and join the insurgents,” Captain Abdullah Hulwe, a Syrian-born Sunni, told The Telegraph Sunday, February13 , in his first full interview since he arrived in Iraq a year ago.
He cited several examples of unnecessary harassment and ill-treatment of Iraqis by fellow US soldiers.
“We`ve never had any problem with women so we should not search and harass them.”
Hulwe further added: “If a man is head of house you don`t let him lose face in front of his family. There is no need for swearing and hollering and frightening the children.”
Several residents in the Iraqi city of Ramadi have told IslamOnline.net that the unabated resistance in the western Baghdad city was a direct result of the barbarian practices of the US occupation forces.
“Imagine how an Iraqi man feels when he sees a foreigner touching his sister,” Qassem Hasnawi, a young Iraqi, once said describing the situation in Fallujah.
Act Like Guests
Hulwe, who joined the US Army as a mechanic, urged his fellow US army soldiers to act like true guests, regretting failure to shift from war-fighting mentality.
“If you`re saying you`re a guest you have to behave like a guest. There is no need to cuss people out.”
He also criticized another routine practice by the American troops.
“You don`t force people off the road when you are driving,” said the American army’s Muslim chaplain.
Hulwe, 42 , told the paper that he was struggling to “educate” soldiers to respect Muslims, admitting that US troops had made many mistakes and were only slowly learning how to put things right.
Indiscriminate Detentions
The Muslim chaplain was particularly furious about indiscriminate detention of Iraqis on a tip off from one person, who might well have a personal grudge to settle.
“Just because one source says this guy`s bad, we used to arrest a guy,” he regretted.
Hulwe said one of his most satisfying moments was being able to free a young man who had been wrongfully imprisoned by US forces.
“The Kurds had arrested him and got a confession saying he was a Saudi working for Al-Qaeda,” he recalled.
“In fact, it turned out he was an Iraqi and his father had been murdered by Saddam Hussein`s regime.”
Hulwe added that after checking paperwork supplied by the family he was able to convince military lawyers that the Iraqi should be freed.
After this incident he pressed for arrest procedures to be changed and accusations now need to be verified from “two different sources”.
Discrimination at Home
The US army chaplain lamented that his own family had been mistreated after the9 /11.
He said his hijab-donned wife was searched every time she entered the base in Texas where he was stationed.
“The soldier stopping her said he was only searching every15 th car,” Hulwe said.
“I said, `That`s baloney. Are you telling me my wife is unlucky every time?`”
A recent nation-wide poll, conducted by the Cornell University, showed that at least 44 percent of the Americans backs curbing Muslims’ civil rights and monitoring their places of worship.
A May 2004 report released by the US Senate Office Of Research concluded that Arab Americans and the Muslim community in the US have taken the brunt of the Patriot Act and other federal powers applied in the aftermath of the9 / 11attacks.
A:Just as a munafique knows he is a munaafique--by responding on cue!
Oh how the cantonement mutts drool and yelp in an orgasmic frenzy when the master approaches, whip in hand, to torture and persecute muslims and non-muslims alike all over the world.
The mutt scampers in delight; the mutt`s arse pulsates & throbs in that orgasm reward.
``pUr baybay misses you too , my goraa saab``?
Muslim Chaplain Slams Heavy-Handed US Tactics in Iraq
“We`ve never had any problem with women so we should not search and harass them,” said Hulwe.
CAIRO, February 13 (IslamOnline.net) – The only Muslim chaplain in the US army in Iraq has lambasted “unnecessarily heavy-handed tactics” against Iraqis, blaming the loss of many US lives on disrespect of the Muslim population.
“The better you act, the safer this area will be. If nothing else you`ll not give a reason for someone who is neutral to go and join the insurgents,” Captain Abdullah Hulwe, a Syrian-born Sunni, told The Telegraph Sunday, February13 , in his first full interview since he arrived in Iraq a year ago.
He cited several examples of unnecessary harassment and ill-treatment of Iraqis by fellow US soldiers.
“We`ve never had any problem with women so we should not search and harass them.”
Hulwe further added: “If a man is head of house you don`t let him lose face in front of his family. There is no need for swearing and hollering and frightening the children.”
Several residents in the Iraqi city of Ramadi have told IslamOnline.net that the unabated resistance in the western Baghdad city was a direct result of the barbarian practices of the US occupation forces.
“Imagine how an Iraqi man feels when he sees a foreigner touching his sister,” Qassem Hasnawi, a young Iraqi, once said describing the situation in Fallujah.
Act Like Guests
Hulwe, who joined the US Army as a mechanic, urged his fellow US army soldiers to act like true guests, regretting failure to shift from war-fighting mentality.
“If you`re saying you`re a guest you have to behave like a guest. There is no need to cuss people out.”
He also criticized another routine practice by the American troops.
“You don`t force people off the road when you are driving,” said the American army’s Muslim chaplain.
Hulwe, 42 , told the paper that he was struggling to “educate” soldiers to respect Muslims, admitting that US troops had made many mistakes and were only slowly learning how to put things right.
Indiscriminate Detentions
The Muslim chaplain was particularly furious about indiscriminate detention of Iraqis on a tip off from one person, who might well have a personal grudge to settle.
“Just because one source says this guy`s bad, we used to arrest a guy,” he regretted.
Hulwe said one of his most satisfying moments was being able to free a young man who had been wrongfully imprisoned by US forces.
“The Kurds had arrested him and got a confession saying he was a Saudi working for Al-Qaeda,” he recalled.
“In fact, it turned out he was an Iraqi and his father had been murdered by Saddam Hussein`s regime.”
Hulwe added that after checking paperwork supplied by the family he was able to convince military lawyers that the Iraqi should be freed.
After this incident he pressed for arrest procedures to be changed and accusations now need to be verified from “two different sources”.
Discrimination at Home
The US army chaplain lamented that his own family had been mistreated after the9 /11.
He said his hijab-donned wife was searched every time she entered the base in Texas where he was stationed.
“The soldier stopping her said he was only searching every15 th car,” Hulwe said.
“I said, `That`s baloney. Are you telling me my wife is unlucky every time?`”
A recent nation-wide poll, conducted by the Cornell University, showed that at least 44 percent of the Americans backs curbing Muslims’ civil rights and monitoring their places of worship.
A May 2004 report released by the US Senate Office Of Research concluded that Arab Americans and the Muslim community in the US have taken the brunt of the Patriot Act and other federal powers applied in the aftermath of the9 / 11attacks.
#36 Posted by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 9:28:41 am
echosqueek aka chawal aka arab bootlicker: ja mooN dho. ha! ha!
#35 Posted by echoboom on February 13, 2005 9:25:04 am
Now why can`t the cantonement mutts, the AbdulAmreekaas--the munaafique & margarine `muslims` of Pakistan become dignified & honourable , abandon their slavish mindset and express their hate for U.S . Intelligent people acquire western knowledge to prepare themselves to bring down the satanic western system--NOT to become like them.
Know your enemy well, study him and plan & prepare to destroy that enemy intellectually & culturally ,some day, from inside.
Not like AbdulAmreekas, who bow their heads in gratitude and their arses in platitudes to their goraa-Saab.
`` O miray goray abba tooN kithhay vey; baybay taiNrooN yaad paee krdee aie``--lament of a cantonement colonised mutt.
Chavez Zindabad, Castro Zindabaad, Iran zindabad, Malaysia zindabad, North Korea Zindabad, Myanmaar zindabaad, Sudan Zindabad, Nigeria zindabad, Zimbabwe zindabad, People & mujahideen of Afghanistan Zindabad, Freedom-Fighters by ballot & bullets in Iraq Zindabaad, Chechen fighters--Moro Fighters--Thailand fighters--Banda Aceh fighters-- Bosnian fighters--Chiapaas fighters
Laa`nut on Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Libya & any other Westernised natural progeny of the anglo-scum. The shame & embarrassment to Islam & muslims.
Chavez: ``US is a terrorist state``
Sunday 13 February 2005, 14:37 Makka Time, 11:37 GMT
The Venezuelan president and the US are sworn enemies
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has branded the United States a terrorist state while rejecting Washington`s criticism of Caracas for its arms purchase from Russia.
Chavez, a fierce critic of US President George Bush and the US-led war in Iraq, on Saturday brushed aside US opposition to the agreement to buy 100,000 automatic rifles and about 40 military helicopters from Moscow.
``One has to ask whether there was transparency in the invasion of Iraq. The world knows President Bush lied openly about Iraq having chemical weapons,`` Chavez said.
``They keep on bombing cities, killing children, they have become a terrorist state,`` he said.
Tense ties
Venezuela, the world`s fifth largest oil exporter, is a key crude supplier to the US. But relations soured after Chavez came to power in 1999, vowing to fight poverty with a self-proclaimed revolution.
US officials have accused Chavez of allowing Marxist rebels from neighbouring Colombia to shelter in Venezuela and criticise his increasingly close relations with Cuban leader Fidel Castro.
Chavez, however, rejects the charges and has moved to strengthen Venezuela`s political and economic ties beyond Washington with states such as China, Russia and Iran.
Know your enemy well, study him and plan & prepare to destroy that enemy intellectually & culturally ,some day, from inside.
Not like AbdulAmreekas, who bow their heads in gratitude and their arses in platitudes to their goraa-Saab.
`` O miray goray abba tooN kithhay vey; baybay taiNrooN yaad paee krdee aie``--lament of a cantonement colonised mutt.
Chavez Zindabad, Castro Zindabaad, Iran zindabad, Malaysia zindabad, North Korea Zindabad, Myanmaar zindabaad, Sudan Zindabad, Nigeria zindabad, Zimbabwe zindabad, People & mujahideen of Afghanistan Zindabad, Freedom-Fighters by ballot & bullets in Iraq Zindabaad, Chechen fighters--Moro Fighters--Thailand fighters--Banda Aceh fighters-- Bosnian fighters--Chiapaas fighters
Laa`nut on Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi, Jordan, Libya & any other Westernised natural progeny of the anglo-scum. The shame & embarrassment to Islam & muslims.
Sunday 13 February 2005, 14:37 Makka Time, 11:37 GMT
The Venezuelan president and the US are sworn enemies
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has branded the United States a terrorist state while rejecting Washington`s criticism of Caracas for its arms purchase from Russia.
Chavez, a fierce critic of US President George Bush and the US-led war in Iraq, on Saturday brushed aside US opposition to the agreement to buy 100,000 automatic rifles and about 40 military helicopters from Moscow.
``One has to ask whether there was transparency in the invasion of Iraq. The world knows President Bush lied openly about Iraq having chemical weapons,`` Chavez said.
``They keep on bombing cities, killing children, they have become a terrorist state,`` he said.
Tense ties
Venezuela, the world`s fifth largest oil exporter, is a key crude supplier to the US. But relations soured after Chavez came to power in 1999, vowing to fight poverty with a self-proclaimed revolution.
US officials have accused Chavez of allowing Marxist rebels from neighbouring Colombia to shelter in Venezuela and criticise his increasingly close relations with Cuban leader Fidel Castro.
Chavez, however, rejects the charges and has moved to strengthen Venezuela`s political and economic ties beyond Washington with states such as China, Russia and Iran.
#34 Posted by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 9:11:51 am
soulkeeper: you write ``he petered out when push came to shove``.
So you get my drift :-) or more accurately, we both agree that musharaff has not done any ``Big Things``, and the positive accomplishments (e.g. the jump in economic growth rate to 6.5% and perhaps even 7% next year) could well have taken place under a civilian government.
To be fair to musharraf: there is one important example where he did what civilian governments had failed to do - namely replace the obsolete colonial style deputy commissioner with locally elected nazims. I know that both benazir and nawaz sharif had tried to do this (I read reports that were written under their governments proposing such reforms) but for some reason never implemented it.
I would urge you to reconsider your low opinion of your fellow Pakistani citizens. I have seen people around the world, and I believe Pakistanis are second to none when it comes to practical judgement, hard work, and big heartedness. They deserve and are capable of a much better form of government than the military has given them.
And this is not just me: back when Zia was ruling, there was an editorial in the Washington Post that argued that Pakistan was far too sophisticated a nation to be subject to military rule.
So you get my drift :-) or more accurately, we both agree that musharaff has not done any ``Big Things``, and the positive accomplishments (e.g. the jump in economic growth rate to 6.5% and perhaps even 7% next year) could well have taken place under a civilian government.
To be fair to musharraf: there is one important example where he did what civilian governments had failed to do - namely replace the obsolete colonial style deputy commissioner with locally elected nazims. I know that both benazir and nawaz sharif had tried to do this (I read reports that were written under their governments proposing such reforms) but for some reason never implemented it.
I would urge you to reconsider your low opinion of your fellow Pakistani citizens. I have seen people around the world, and I believe Pakistanis are second to none when it comes to practical judgement, hard work, and big heartedness. They deserve and are capable of a much better form of government than the military has given them.
And this is not just me: back when Zia was ruling, there was an editorial in the Washington Post that argued that Pakistan was far too sophisticated a nation to be subject to military rule.
#33 Posted by SoulKeeper on February 13, 2005 9:03:00 am
Also if things keep going the way they are, Musharraf’s legacy is not going to be any different than Zia’s.
#32 Posted by SoulKeeper on February 13, 2005 8:59:03 am
RE:#31 by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 8:48am PT
[What radical changes has Musharaff introduced in the past few years that he has been in power?? (Please dont ignore this question but try to answer it honestly).]
Answer:
Read the end of my interact#25, I will paste it for you here:
``...Musharraf had the right idea; only he petered out when push came to shove. Hence the present stagnant situation, which is not taking us anywhere.``
[What radical changes has Musharaff introduced in the past few years that he has been in power?? (Please dont ignore this question but try to answer it honestly).]
Answer:
Read the end of my interact#25, I will paste it for you here:
``...Musharraf had the right idea; only he petered out when push came to shove. Hence the present stagnant situation, which is not taking us anywhere.``
#31 Posted by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 8:48:37 am
SoulKeeper #30 I am sorry but your argument that ``only army commands the position to make the radical changes that are required.`` is incorrect. What radical changes has Musharaff introduced in the past few years that he has been in power?? (Please dont ignore this question but try to answer it honestly).
In fact, Musharaff has been unable to even get rid of the hadood laws (which include the absurd requirement of there being 4 male witnesses to a rape) that Zia introduced. This is not just one isolated example: in order to alleviate international and domestic pressures to introduce democracy, Musharaff has followed the strategy of building up maulvis as the alternative and of cutting down mainstream parties by keeping their leaders in exile and tilting elections in favor of the maulvis.
While useful to preserving his power, he is sowing the seeds that the next generation of Pakistanis may well have to reap in the form of a civil war (at worst) or a fulfillment of the lifelong dream of the Indian chauvinists to see Pakistan declared a fundamentalist state.
In contrast: when in 1998 the BJP extremists tried to bully Pakistan with nuclear explosions - it was under the civilian government of Nawaz Sharif that Pakistan gave them a ``mooN tor`` response that silenced those thugs. Civilian governments can work - if the military supports them (as it is required to do) rather than trying to undercut them at every turn.
In fact, Musharaff has been unable to even get rid of the hadood laws (which include the absurd requirement of there being 4 male witnesses to a rape) that Zia introduced. This is not just one isolated example: in order to alleviate international and domestic pressures to introduce democracy, Musharaff has followed the strategy of building up maulvis as the alternative and of cutting down mainstream parties by keeping their leaders in exile and tilting elections in favor of the maulvis.
While useful to preserving his power, he is sowing the seeds that the next generation of Pakistanis may well have to reap in the form of a civil war (at worst) or a fulfillment of the lifelong dream of the Indian chauvinists to see Pakistan declared a fundamentalist state.
In contrast: when in 1998 the BJP extremists tried to bully Pakistan with nuclear explosions - it was under the civilian government of Nawaz Sharif that Pakistan gave them a ``mooN tor`` response that silenced those thugs. Civilian governments can work - if the military supports them (as it is required to do) rather than trying to undercut them at every turn.
#30 Posted by SoulKeeper on February 13, 2005 8:16:37 am
RE: #29 by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 6:50am PT
It is funny that you completely missed the point.
My statement, “I am glad that you are catching my drift,” was supposed to be a sarcastic one and was not meant for you to take literally.
The reason I ignored your how-all-dictators-are-evil-comments is because at no point during this discussion I have condoned dictatorship as an end in itself; quite the contrary, I see it as a means to an end. A dictatorship with a purpose, shall I say, if such a thing exists?
The problem is currently only army commands the position to make the radical changes that are required.
Bitter Medicine.
It is funny that you completely missed the point.
My statement, “I am glad that you are catching my drift,” was supposed to be a sarcastic one and was not meant for you to take literally.
The reason I ignored your how-all-dictators-are-evil-comments is because at no point during this discussion I have condoned dictatorship as an end in itself; quite the contrary, I see it as a means to an end. A dictatorship with a purpose, shall I say, if such a thing exists?
The problem is currently only army commands the position to make the radical changes that are required.
Bitter Medicine.
#29 Posted by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 6:50:46 am
SoulKeeper: You, my friend, have ignored the arguments I have presented in the last two posts, and make the convenient assertion that I agree with you. Does this mean you are one of those Pakistanis whom you would consider unfit for democracy?? Since, in your view, all citizens need to be capable of enlightened and objective discussion before the country is declared fit for democracy.
#28 Posted by SoulKeeper on February 13, 2005 6:24:37 am
RE: #27 by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 5:38am PT
I am glad that you are catching my drift.
I do believe that, under the present circumstances, Pakistani people are not fit for democracy. If this is adding insult to injury, I am sorry, but nothing nice you or I can say here that is going to change ground realities.
There is an operating word in Urdu that fits the bill here:
“Shaoor”
Shaoor ki kami hae.
We have a “Jaahil Qaum.” And ignoring the obvious is not helping.
It is time to acknowledge the facts. It is time to ask the question why democracy is not sustainable in Pakistan? Why it does not carry any real value with the masses? Why do they not come out on the streets when a dictator overthrows an “elected” – read bought through the feudal-politician alliance – government?
I am glad that you are catching my drift.
I do believe that, under the present circumstances, Pakistani people are not fit for democracy. If this is adding insult to injury, I am sorry, but nothing nice you or I can say here that is going to change ground realities.
There is an operating word in Urdu that fits the bill here:
“Shaoor”
Shaoor ki kami hae.
We have a “Jaahil Qaum.” And ignoring the obvious is not helping.
It is time to acknowledge the facts. It is time to ask the question why democracy is not sustainable in Pakistan? Why it does not carry any real value with the masses? Why do they not come out on the streets when a dictator overthrows an “elected” – read bought through the feudal-politician alliance – government?
#27 Posted by tahmed32 on February 13, 2005 5:38:27 am
SK #25 I think the single most important factor in any country`s success as a democracy is, to use the analogy of ``the dog that did not bark``. This of course is from a Sherlock Holmes story where the famous detective points to something that did NOT happen as the explanation. In otherwords, in India the military did not try to take over political power whereas in Pakistan this has become the norm. When Ayub came to power, his main excuse was frequent changes in government - ignoring the fact that there is nothing wrong with this as long as it is done within the constitution. The Italians in the 1950`s had even more frequent changes in government than Pakistan, but there was no Ayub Khan there and people had already seen the mess dictators create. Mussolini may have made things more efficient on the surface (his famous claim being that he made the trains run on time), but his militarism led Italy into a ruinous war.
So, the plain and simple fact is that the military is in power in Pakistan because that makes the generals and brigadiers very rich. To say that the Pakistani people are not fit for democracy is simply to add insult to injury.
So, the plain and simple fact is that the military is in power in Pakistan because that makes the generals and brigadiers very rich. To say that the Pakistani people are not fit for democracy is simply to add insult to injury.
#26 Posted by arjun_m on February 13, 2005 5:27:54 am
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#25 Posted by SoulKeeper on February 13, 2005 4:30:08 am
RE: #23 by tahmed32 on February 12, 2005 6:23pm PT
The single most important factor in India’s success as a democracy is the break-up of its feudal system in 1947. Jawaharlal Nehru was smart enough to do this right off the bat. In india’s case it was not vice versa as you suggest.
Nehru also realized that religion had no place in the affairs of the State, and hence India is a secular State.
Another point to be noted is that Indian education system is better than that of Pakistan. Democracy needs breathing space. Musharraf had the right idea; only he petered out when push came to shove. Hence the present stagnant situation, which is not taking us anywhere.
The single most important factor in India’s success as a democracy is the break-up of its feudal system in 1947. Jawaharlal Nehru was smart enough to do this right off the bat. In india’s case it was not vice versa as you suggest.
Nehru also realized that religion had no place in the affairs of the State, and hence India is a secular State.
Another point to be noted is that Indian education system is better than that of Pakistan. Democracy needs breathing space. Musharraf had the right idea; only he petered out when push came to shove. Hence the present stagnant situation, which is not taking us anywhere.
#24 Posted by tahmed32 on February 12, 2005 9:39:29 pm
My heartiest congratulations to all fellow Pakistanis. Our feerless leader Gen Musharraf is on the front page of the Parade magazine....as the seventh worst dictator of the world.
#23 Posted by tahmed32 on February 12, 2005 6:23:54 pm
soulkeeper: ``See democracy can only work when the masses are properly educated and feudalism is completely eradicated.``
Jesus S. Blessed Christ Almighty. I assume you said that with a straight face!! The biggest duffers, the rejects from colleges - they are the ones who go to the army (I should know - my father used to select these duffers for ISB, and the entire selection board used to joke about making sure no one with a high IQ got into the army).
More seriously - are you aware of a country named India (if you look carefully at the map, you will find it is a big triangular landmass to the east of Pakistan) has a democracy. Even teeny weeny african countries like kenya have democracy. Even dinky little latino nations have democracy. Altogether 118 countries around the world have democracies. Sure they eradicated feudalism - but BECAUSE they had a democracy, not a bunch of tin pot generals. So get your cause and effect straight, my friend. Repeat after me:
Democracy gets rid of feudalism.
Military officers serve the nation, not vice versa.
Demcracy reduces military expenditures, saving money for education.
(Start saying these kind of things. As things stand you are the last Pakistani on earth who says what you said above. At least I hope so. Even military boys know they are just kidding when they pretend to be smart and educated.)
Jesus S. Blessed Christ Almighty. I assume you said that with a straight face!! The biggest duffers, the rejects from colleges - they are the ones who go to the army (I should know - my father used to select these duffers for ISB, and the entire selection board used to joke about making sure no one with a high IQ got into the army).
More seriously - are you aware of a country named India (if you look carefully at the map, you will find it is a big triangular landmass to the east of Pakistan) has a democracy. Even teeny weeny african countries like kenya have democracy. Even dinky little latino nations have democracy. Altogether 118 countries around the world have democracies. Sure they eradicated feudalism - but BECAUSE they had a democracy, not a bunch of tin pot generals. So get your cause and effect straight, my friend. Repeat after me:
Democracy gets rid of feudalism.
Military officers serve the nation, not vice versa.
Demcracy reduces military expenditures, saving money for education.
(Start saying these kind of things. As things stand you are the last Pakistani on earth who says what you said above. At least I hope so. Even military boys know they are just kidding when they pretend to be smart and educated.)
#22 Posted by SoulKeeper on February 12, 2005 2:27:32 pm
RE: #19 by KHS on February 12, 2005 0:21am PT
Dear KHS:
Religion is only as good as it serves humanity. And I will leave it at that.
RE: #20 by bbabu on February 12, 2005 0:29am PT
[Unless culture is fundamentally immoral (which is hard to believe) corruption is a symptom not a root cause. Why do petty govt servants indulge in corruption ? They need to acquire symbols or status of power in addition to bare necessities. An army officer with 2 kids would not mind having two homes in a decent neighborhood in Karachi.]
The culture is fundamentally corrupt my man, or else we would not be having this discussion. And its almost like you are trying to justify bad behaviour. Besides having two homes in a decent neighborhood in Karachi is hardly a bad thing. It’s how you get to it that matters. Call it “Eemaan ki kamzori, if you relate with that sort of thing.”
[`` 3. Jail ALL the hate-teaching mullahs, no exceptions. ``
Kept religion out of politics]
Are you asking me to keep religion out of politics? I got news for you! It can’t be done. It can’t be done because in Pakistan religion is very much a part of the political scene (Jinnah is turning in his grave). It should not be, but it is; hence, the argument about separation of Religion and State. See religion should be a personal thing. If that were not the case, and if ‘tableegh’ was necessary, then why stop at Mohammad as being the last prophet.
[I do not know why conservative elders are a problem. Most of Indian grandparents were as conservative as their Pakistani counterparts. Some of them are far sighted in a few respects like education especially for women.]
First let me tell you this: “Conservative” is not a good word, unless you want to save money. So there is nothing proud about being a conservative adult.
About education of women and treating women as equal, if you notice I never mentioned that in my earlier post. The reason being, that it should a given provided we take the steps that I mention. Only a chauvinist can think that women rights are something that you concede. All human beings are equal, remember?
[`` 1. Throw all the political class in prison for few years. (and I mean without sofas and cable TV) ``
Who will govern the country if you throw out the politicians ?]
The answer to that question is another question:
What has Pakistan’s political class achieved after Zia’s death, besides bickering and questioning the cricket team, of course?
All the major amendments have been done by the army, they only undid them to ensure that they can fill their pockets. They certainly have not done any significant legislative work, only half-baked bills that barely pass just because they were being talked about in the press. At this rate if Musharraf had put a bunch of schoolteachers or even bank clerks in the assemblies they certainly would have out performed our politicians. It’s not a big mountain to climb you see. Any conscientious and respected adult from the neighborhood would have done a better job and the country would have been better for it.
See democracy can only work when the masses are properly educated and feudalism is completely eradicated. Till then we would have to do with a pseudo system, provided all the politicians are in jail. Their afterlife for them should be tomatoes and eggs on the face and not violence, mind you.
Dear KHS:
Religion is only as good as it serves humanity. And I will leave it at that.
RE: #20 by bbabu on February 12, 2005 0:29am PT
[Unless culture is fundamentally immoral (which is hard to believe) corruption is a symptom not a root cause. Why do petty govt servants indulge in corruption ? They need to acquire symbols or status of power in addition to bare necessities. An army officer with 2 kids would not mind having two homes in a decent neighborhood in Karachi.]
The culture is fundamentally corrupt my man, or else we would not be having this discussion. And its almost like you are trying to justify bad behaviour. Besides having two homes in a decent neighborhood in Karachi is hardly a bad thing. It’s how you get to it that matters. Call it “Eemaan ki kamzori, if you relate with that sort of thing.”
[`` 3. Jail ALL the hate-teaching mullahs, no exceptions. ``
Kept religion out of politics]
Are you asking me to keep religion out of politics? I got news for you! It can’t be done. It can’t be done because in Pakistan religion is very much a part of the political scene (Jinnah is turning in his grave). It should not be, but it is; hence, the argument about separation of Religion and State. See religion should be a personal thing. If that were not the case, and if ‘tableegh’ was necessary, then why stop at Mohammad as being the last prophet.
[I do not know why conservative elders are a problem. Most of Indian grandparents were as conservative as their Pakistani counterparts. Some of them are far sighted in a few respects like education especially for women.]
First let me tell you this: “Conservative” is not a good word, unless you want to save money. So there is nothing proud about being a conservative adult.
About education of women and treating women as equal, if you notice I never mentioned that in my earlier post. The reason being, that it should a given provided we take the steps that I mention. Only a chauvinist can think that women rights are something that you concede. All human beings are equal, remember?
[`` 1. Throw all the political class in prison for few years. (and I mean without sofas and cable TV) ``
Who will govern the country if you throw out the politicians ?]
The answer to that question is another question:
What has Pakistan’s political class achieved after Zia’s death, besides bickering and questioning the cricket team, of course?
All the major amendments have been done by the army, they only undid them to ensure that they can fill their pockets. They certainly have not done any significant legislative work, only half-baked bills that barely pass just because they were being talked about in the press. At this rate if Musharraf had put a bunch of schoolteachers or even bank clerks in the assemblies they certainly would have out performed our politicians. It’s not a big mountain to climb you see. Any conscientious and respected adult from the neighborhood would have done a better job and the country would have been better for it.
See democracy can only work when the masses are properly educated and feudalism is completely eradicated. Till then we would have to do with a pseudo system, provided all the politicians are in jail. Their afterlife for them should be tomatoes and eggs on the face and not violence, mind you.
#21 Posted by fuzair on February 12, 2005 11:16:44 am
Re: #14
Zia was a softie compared to ZAB. Zia would rather bribe you, then threaten you and then, finally, use force. Not that I`m saying he was a good guy or anything of that sort, far from it. Bhutto was by far the worst dictator we`ve had. Zia would let you alone, even get you a good government job, if you apologized and grovelled. Bhutto, well Bhutto was personally vindictive. That Zia never was, as far as I know.
Zia was a softie compared to ZAB. Zia would rather bribe you, then threaten you and then, finally, use force. Not that I`m saying he was a good guy or anything of that sort, far from it. Bhutto was by far the worst dictator we`ve had. Zia would let you alone, even get you a good government job, if you apologized and grovelled. Bhutto, well Bhutto was personally vindictive. That Zia never was, as far as I know.
#20 Posted by bbabu on February 12, 2005 12:29:23 am
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#19 Posted by KHS on February 12, 2005 12:21:46 am
Dear SoulKeeper u simply wants the elimination of religion from all aspects of life. It is another kind of extremism which we can call *Liberal Extremism*. Extremism is extremely dangerous either it is with the name of religion or either on the name of modern need or enlightenment; there is a need of balance. A balance approach is much needed to run a tolerant society. Along with Madressas we should also review what is going wrong in our school systems, especially in schools affiliated with Cambridge system.
#18 Posted by SoulKeeper on February 11, 2005 9:19:37 pm
RE: #13 by bbabu on February 11, 2005 9:01am PT
[I have a hard time believeing a soft dictator like Zia can have such a negative impact on society. The real problem with Pakistani society (to some extent Indian society) is lack of other institutions - NGOs, press, political parties, movie industry, provincial governments etc.]
I agree with your assesment here. However, I would like to add a few additional points.
The main problem that Pakistan is facing today is corruption. When Musharraf launched the National Accountibility Bearu, it did not take him long to realize how extensive the task at hand was. he finally chickened out and had to make compromises.
What we needed was the most elaborate prison system in the history of mankind.
1. Throw all the political class in prison for few years. (and I mean without sofas and cable TV)
2. Create Zero tolerance for Bribary and theft of funds in public or Private sector.
3. Jail ALL the hate-teaching mullahs, no exceptions.
4. Jail the jirga elders. (six months should do, if not a repeat offender)
5. Close down the madressas and re-institute Junejo`s Nai Roshni school system (Fees maaf, kitaabein muft). And while we are at it, remove relegious content from school text books.
6 Seperate relegion from State.
And before you know it, Pakistan would be fine.
The question is, who can get this accomplished without getting assasinated?
[I have a hard time believeing a soft dictator like Zia can have such a negative impact on society. The real problem with Pakistani society (to some extent Indian society) is lack of other institutions - NGOs, press, political parties, movie industry, provincial governments etc.]
I agree with your assesment here. However, I would like to add a few additional points.
The main problem that Pakistan is facing today is corruption. When Musharraf launched the National Accountibility Bearu, it did not take him long to realize how extensive the task at hand was. he finally chickened out and had to make compromises.
What we needed was the most elaborate prison system in the history of mankind.
1. Throw all the political class in prison for few years. (and I mean without sofas and cable TV)
2. Create Zero tolerance for Bribary and theft of funds in public or Private sector.
3. Jail ALL the hate-teaching mullahs, no exceptions.
4. Jail the jirga elders. (six months should do, if not a repeat offender)
5. Close down the madressas and re-institute Junejo`s Nai Roshni school system (Fees maaf, kitaabein muft). And while we are at it, remove relegious content from school text books.
6 Seperate relegion from State.
And before you know it, Pakistan would be fine.
The question is, who can get this accomplished without getting assasinated?
#17 Posted by paindupastry on February 11, 2005 9:02:52 pm
Great article. Do note, it is not written by Afiya Shehrbano
As she point out in the footnote it is from the newspapers THE NEWS` Opinion section
but thanks for bringing it forward for Chowk readers Afiya. It was indeed a good read and a thought provoking one. Wish it would provoke action as well but we are so embroiled in the greed for money, such matters as equality have lost thier meaning for us.
As she point out in the footnote it is from the newspapers THE NEWS` Opinion section
but thanks for bringing it forward for Chowk readers Afiya. It was indeed a good read and a thought provoking one. Wish it would provoke action as well but we are so embroiled in the greed for money, such matters as equality have lost thier meaning for us.
#16 Posted by tahmed32 on February 11, 2005 6:57:50 pm
So you people grew up on fast food. Well, so did we!! chanaa chor garam (used to cost 4 annas). Well written article, and look forward to reading it again to see exactly what it is folks like me - jilaa watan in the 1980`s, 90`s - missed. (annual short visits obviously dont count).
#15 Posted by ammaroo on February 11, 2005 2:16:33 pm
its all about economics, bread on the table, survival. i wasnt there but maybe the people got together for partition coz they were shown the economic repurcussions of a united india. maybe they were lead to believe that it wud be impossible to live under hindu rule. its still all about that. the rich are eating pasta. the middle class has its sabzi gosht. the poor have their two daalrotis a day, n they are ok, even if it means worshipping landlords.
the system is working. a cart wheel doesnt get punctured.
survival is what the youth of today have been taught and thats what the country is doing. barely surviving.
the system is working. a cart wheel doesnt get punctured.
survival is what the youth of today have been taught and thats what the country is doing. barely surviving.
#14 Posted by tobateksingh on February 11, 2005 10:02:29 am
``soft``??
compared to whom?
he was the hardest dictator we have had...
compared to whom?
he was the hardest dictator we have had...
#13 Posted by bbabu on February 11, 2005 9:01:16 am
I have a hard time believeing a soft dictator like Zia can have such a negative impact on society. The real problem with Pakistani society (to some extent Indian society) is lack of other institutions - NGOs, press, political parties, movie industry, provincial governments etc.
#12 Posted by echoboom on February 11, 2005 8:50:23 am
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#11 Posted by smartsyco on February 11, 2005 3:31:49 am
one of the best article which i have ever read here and specially this time by other girl not again by beena shah...........she has inovked some legitimate prongs.
And i would like to say in addition that it is difficult for youth for us to choose the right path.we are chosing what we are getting what we are seeing what we are finding easy to do..........perhaps we are having most favourable time to act whatever we want.........but don`t forget we are having tough competetion...........This is all time easy to say that we have lot more opportunity but its difficult to judge we are in tough condition to chose our career.
You are absoulotly right that by birth we are watching cable we are having the ease of computer along internet.And there are so many things to entertain us.........There are so many fast food restaurant like Macdonalds you named and i add more kfc pizza hut and lot more like this............
But you didn`t mention this that there is absence of wiseness in youth we never been taught what is right or wrong either..........we are only taught by books
And i would like to say in addition that it is difficult for youth for us to choose the right path.we are chosing what we are getting what we are seeing what we are finding easy to do..........perhaps we are having most favourable time to act whatever we want.........but don`t forget we are having tough competetion...........This is all time easy to say that we have lot more opportunity but its difficult to judge we are in tough condition to chose our career.
You are absoulotly right that by birth we are watching cable we are having the ease of computer along internet.And there are so many things to entertain us.........There are so many fast food restaurant like Macdonalds you named and i add more kfc pizza hut and lot more like this............
But you didn`t mention this that there is absence of wiseness in youth we never been taught what is right or wrong either..........we are only taught by books
#10 Posted by KHS on February 11, 2005 2:52:06 am
It is very nice experience of reading Afia’s article. She raise some very valid points, which are truly very thought provoking.
Author of that article claimed that “We also witnessed the growth of a fascistic state”. I don’t know what the real definition of fascist state is, but I can quote & provide the incidences which are extremely fascist but under the umbrella of democratic powers. Military Operation in Baluchistan & dismissal of elected govt. in NWFP by Bhutto was not the fascism. Extreme ragging in 1977 elections & then killing of innocent civilians in PNA movement was not the fascism. Bifurcation of country just to sake to take the powers in hand was not the fascism.
Afia also said “I grew up in a house where watching censored TV and religio-military spin was banned”. Here another question rose what is the role of religion in daily life, what religion (especially Islam) teaches us? Why we feel so proud after claiming that we are not religious & we are moderate, enlightened or secular Muslims? I think it is not more than a fashion.
I am great admirer of ARD struggle & I believe that author learnt a lot in this movement. I believe that she has realized the difference of educational system in Pakistan. Now there are two systems are running in parallel mode. Here I am not only pointing out the Cambridge system & current govt. system but I am also pointing out the influence & role of private educational institutes. First of all most of the students are those students who can’t get admission in public higher/ professional institutes due to low merit but they have money in their pocket & they enjoy the same qualification.
Afia will agree with me that previously govt. institutes were the center of agitations & movements but now what our generation is getting just “date culture/ dances/ music/ sex/ drugs” but still govt. educational institutes are safe from all these diseases.
Regarding media Iqbal’s point of view is very correct & its not only related to Faisalabad but its happening every where. There is high need of teaching of religious & cultural values to masses through Masjids, schools & media itself.
Jay! Term extremism is wrongly only associated with religion, please also take care about what happening in English medium private schools & universities. Which type of moral values is prevailing here? If there is need of revisit the curriculum of madressas (which is a need) then there is also a high need to evaluate the schools system & atmosphere where 70% of students are getting education.
I am completely agree with Afia’s following statement “For all their song, dance and drink, freedom of expression and buying power, this generation is simultaneously trapped between international Islamophobia and the hijab on the one hand, and a globalised consumerist culture that enslaves them to The Market and its determinants such as the World Bank and the IMF, on the other. Not that much has changed.”
Here I am 100% agreeing that Zia tenure was not the golden era for the country but I also want to point out that the whole picture is not as bad as portrayed here. Pakistani youth is very optimistic & they know what is their destination. For those who are looking dreams that Pakistan will be a secular country, no sir! U r in the wrong train.
KHS
Author of that article claimed that “We also witnessed the growth of a fascistic state”. I don’t know what the real definition of fascist state is, but I can quote & provide the incidences which are extremely fascist but under the umbrella of democratic powers. Military Operation in Baluchistan & dismissal of elected govt. in NWFP by Bhutto was not the fascism. Extreme ragging in 1977 elections & then killing of innocent civilians in PNA movement was not the fascism. Bifurcation of country just to sake to take the powers in hand was not the fascism.
Afia also said “I grew up in a house where watching censored TV and religio-military spin was banned”. Here another question rose what is the role of religion in daily life, what religion (especially Islam) teaches us? Why we feel so proud after claiming that we are not religious & we are moderate, enlightened or secular Muslims? I think it is not more than a fashion.
I am great admirer of ARD struggle & I believe that author learnt a lot in this movement. I believe that she has realized the difference of educational system in Pakistan. Now there are two systems are running in parallel mode. Here I am not only pointing out the Cambridge system & current govt. system but I am also pointing out the influence & role of private educational institutes. First of all most of the students are those students who can’t get admission in public higher/ professional institutes due to low merit but they have money in their pocket & they enjoy the same qualification.
Afia will agree with me that previously govt. institutes were the center of agitations & movements but now what our generation is getting just “date culture/ dances/ music/ sex/ drugs” but still govt. educational institutes are safe from all these diseases.
Regarding media Iqbal’s point of view is very correct & its not only related to Faisalabad but its happening every where. There is high need of teaching of religious & cultural values to masses through Masjids, schools & media itself.
Jay! Term extremism is wrongly only associated with religion, please also take care about what happening in English medium private schools & universities. Which type of moral values is prevailing here? If there is need of revisit the curriculum of madressas (which is a need) then there is also a high need to evaluate the schools system & atmosphere where 70% of students are getting education.
I am completely agree with Afia’s following statement “For all their song, dance and drink, freedom of expression and buying power, this generation is simultaneously trapped between international Islamophobia and the hijab on the one hand, and a globalised consumerist culture that enslaves them to The Market and its determinants such as the World Bank and the IMF, on the other. Not that much has changed.”
Here I am 100% agreeing that Zia tenure was not the golden era for the country but I also want to point out that the whole picture is not as bad as portrayed here. Pakistani youth is very optimistic & they know what is their destination. For those who are looking dreams that Pakistan will be a secular country, no sir! U r in the wrong train.
KHS
#9 Posted by temporal on February 10, 2005 7:37:53 pm
Afiya:
…welcome to chowk…hope you will contribute more and more importantly interact…
zina ul haq’s children? lahol e wala…
growing up shadowless is the dilemma…growing up under decrepit and decaying institutions…corrupt and mean interpretation of laws…that is what i mean by shadowless growth…where sanity and strength is unavailable and replaced by hollow sloganeering…where leaders and elders say one thing and do another…
welcome once again and listen…listen carefully to jay thackeray the armchair expert of what ails pakistan…listen, listen carefully and remember sheikh saadi`s dictum...jay has a solution for almost everything that ails us…too bad he is so lost;)…he yearns recognition as the saviour of pakistan…
lve
t
…welcome to chowk…hope you will contribute more and more importantly interact…
zina ul haq’s children? lahol e wala…
growing up shadowless is the dilemma…growing up under decrepit and decaying institutions…corrupt and mean interpretation of laws…that is what i mean by shadowless growth…where sanity and strength is unavailable and replaced by hollow sloganeering…where leaders and elders say one thing and do another…
welcome once again and listen…listen carefully to jay thackeray the armchair expert of what ails pakistan…listen, listen carefully and remember sheikh saadi`s dictum...jay has a solution for almost everything that ails us…too bad he is so lost;)…he yearns recognition as the saviour of pakistan…
lve
t
#8 Posted by jay on February 10, 2005 5:45:05 pm
Afiya,
You have comletely missed the point, you write as though the pakistani youth are in vaccuum. No they are not, the majority are in the grip of the madrassa system, there are 3 million who have come out of it and more are streaming out. The smart educated ones are one with this youth, they are the ones who sent them to jihad, they are one who managed the encrypted communication system for the terrorists. They are the ones who cocordinate the sale of stolen vehicles to the afghans, they are the ones who have borrowed money in Wana and the pak govt is trying to repay.
The western educated have no role in the pak society, they have no influence and the proof is that 25 years after Zia, despite the democratci and military dictators since then, no one could alter the hoodood and honour killing legislations. More of the same type are on the way, the jirga legalisation in sindh, the banning of music in MWFP.
Pak society is not static, it is moving and the youth are guiding it. What is needed is to accept that there is an evolution taking place. Stop denying this, and there could be a future for pakistan as a moderate nation.
You have comletely missed the point, you write as though the pakistani youth are in vaccuum. No they are not, the majority are in the grip of the madrassa system, there are 3 million who have come out of it and more are streaming out. The smart educated ones are one with this youth, they are the ones who sent them to jihad, they are one who managed the encrypted communication system for the terrorists. They are the ones who cocordinate the sale of stolen vehicles to the afghans, they are the ones who have borrowed money in Wana and the pak govt is trying to repay.
The western educated have no role in the pak society, they have no influence and the proof is that 25 years after Zia, despite the democratci and military dictators since then, no one could alter the hoodood and honour killing legislations. More of the same type are on the way, the jirga legalisation in sindh, the banning of music in MWFP.
Pak society is not static, it is moving and the youth are guiding it. What is needed is to accept that there is an evolution taking place. Stop denying this, and there could be a future for pakistan as a moderate nation.
#7 Posted by ShoreSahib on February 10, 2005 5:12:36 pm
Urstruly Sahib,
The Pakistan movement for freedom was one thing and reformation of Pakistani sociopolitik is another. The snooty ones as you call them and the provincial ones had one thing in common; they were both the subaltern. After Pakistan was created, the very people that were against the creation of Pakistan in the first place such the Mullah Brigade took the reins of Pakistan, and ran with it. The voices of Hindustani Muhajir intellectuals were suppressed in the cocophany of a predominantly Punjabi and Sindhi Pakistan. The Landlords and industrialists usurped all the power away from the People of Pakistan, and the army in order to legitamize its claim to power looked towards the Mullah Brigade, General Zia`s age of terror is a prime example. The secular vision of the Quaid perverted to an ill-concieved Islamic Republic with unjust so called Islamic Laws amalgamated with a British common law created the morally, socially and economically destitute Pakistan we see today.
Corruption laughs cackling with delight, Poverty runs rampant across the land, Women in anguish, children without education, medicine or proper nutrition. This is our Pakistan. Iqbal and Jinnah turning in their graves while the Muslim clergy perverts the very reason behind the creation of Pakistan.
The elite on their pedestals are happy with the status quo and have no desire nor will to change any thing.
The Pakistan movement for freedom was one thing and reformation of Pakistani sociopolitik is another. The snooty ones as you call them and the provincial ones had one thing in common; they were both the subaltern. After Pakistan was created, the very people that were against the creation of Pakistan in the first place such the Mullah Brigade took the reins of Pakistan, and ran with it. The voices of Hindustani Muhajir intellectuals were suppressed in the cocophany of a predominantly Punjabi and Sindhi Pakistan. The Landlords and industrialists usurped all the power away from the People of Pakistan, and the army in order to legitamize its claim to power looked towards the Mullah Brigade, General Zia`s age of terror is a prime example. The secular vision of the Quaid perverted to an ill-concieved Islamic Republic with unjust so called Islamic Laws amalgamated with a British common law created the morally, socially and economically destitute Pakistan we see today.
Corruption laughs cackling with delight, Poverty runs rampant across the land, Women in anguish, children without education, medicine or proper nutrition. This is our Pakistan. Iqbal and Jinnah turning in their graves while the Muslim clergy perverts the very reason behind the creation of Pakistan.
The elite on their pedestals are happy with the status quo and have no desire nor will to change any thing.
#6 Posted by teshah on February 10, 2005 4:20:47 pm
Re: # 5
Yes, urstruly, you are right. I saw this revolution in the villages myself in the 70`s. But what happened to that revolution; frustration and disappoinment. It was treachery par-excellence. It was a sell-out with no holds. As a result the people were thrown in the coagmire of obscurantism and jingoism. With the anti-Quadiani ammendment in the Constitution followed by subsequent Ziai martial orders even our identity as a Muslim, the very basis for the partition of India, became questionable. The Mullah-gardi armed with the loudspeaker and the LOB have so terrorised the people that that they are running from the Pakland even at the risk of their lives. There slogan today,so to say, is `Pakistan se zinda bhaag` instead of `Pakistan Zindabad`.
Yes, urstruly, you are right. I saw this revolution in the villages myself in the 70`s. But what happened to that revolution; frustration and disappoinment. It was treachery par-excellence. It was a sell-out with no holds. As a result the people were thrown in the coagmire of obscurantism and jingoism. With the anti-Quadiani ammendment in the Constitution followed by subsequent Ziai martial orders even our identity as a Muslim, the very basis for the partition of India, became questionable. The Mullah-gardi armed with the loudspeaker and the LOB have so terrorised the people that that they are running from the Pakland even at the risk of their lives. There slogan today,so to say, is `Pakistan se zinda bhaag` instead of `Pakistan Zindabad`.
#5 Posted by Urstruly on February 10, 2005 2:02:30 pm
ShoreSahib
That was not just an idealist talk; what I have proposed has happened before. Take for example the Pakistan Movement; the movement only gained momentum when students from Aligarh and Islamia College - the snooty ones - came down from their pedastals and mingled with the rural and lower class. They held rallies and corner meetings in villages and explained to them what would it mean to be independent. Pakistan was the result of the vote from that class. Both Awami League and People`s Party approached the lower rung of the society - Bengalis won their freedom from feudal-military nexus and PP to this date commands respect in rural class. Both parties in their respective areas caused massive social change because the power of the people was behind them. People never forget when someone does good to them. There are no short cuts to bring positive social change - its a long route- needs hardwork.
That was not just an idealist talk; what I have proposed has happened before. Take for example the Pakistan Movement; the movement only gained momentum when students from Aligarh and Islamia College - the snooty ones - came down from their pedastals and mingled with the rural and lower class. They held rallies and corner meetings in villages and explained to them what would it mean to be independent. Pakistan was the result of the vote from that class. Both Awami League and People`s Party approached the lower rung of the society - Bengalis won their freedom from feudal-military nexus and PP to this date commands respect in rural class. Both parties in their respective areas caused massive social change because the power of the people was behind them. People never forget when someone does good to them. There are no short cuts to bring positive social change - its a long route- needs hardwork.
#4 Posted by ShoreSahib on February 10, 2005 1:46:52 pm
Re: # 2
The key to social change in Pakistan is the very down trodden. He is the one who sets the new political order - he always has - when empowered. Reach him; empower him; and most of all love him. Urstruly
Urstruly Sahib, How true is this!
Yet the question is who will empower the downtrodden. It is the upper classes whose power and riches is built upon the blood, sweat, and the negation of the rights of this very downtrodden majority of Pakistanis. The middle classes dont care to uplift the down trodden, for they know that their goal of reaching the upper class social strata requires trampling upon the rights of others.
The key to social change in Pakistan is the very down trodden. He is the one who sets the new political order - he always has - when empowered. Reach him; empower him; and most of all love him. Urstruly
Urstruly Sahib, How true is this!
Yet the question is who will empower the downtrodden. It is the upper classes whose power and riches is built upon the blood, sweat, and the negation of the rights of this very downtrodden majority of Pakistanis. The middle classes dont care to uplift the down trodden, for they know that their goal of reaching the upper class social strata requires trampling upon the rights of others.
#3 Posted by ShoreSahib on February 10, 2005 1:36:58 pm
Excellent article, Afiya Sahiba!
Optimistic!
You want the youth to manufactor their own democracies, but which youth are you referring to?
The Educated ones in the cities or the multitudes uneducated whose one vote cancels out one educated vote.
Optimistic!
You want the youth to manufactor their own democracies, but which youth are you referring to?
The Educated ones in the cities or the multitudes uneducated whose one vote cancels out one educated vote.
#2 Posted by Urstruly on February 10, 2005 1:35:58 pm
Socialist agenda has repeatedly failed in Pakistan because it rely entirely on the tiny middle calss that always finds itself hanging in the limbo. The middle class sever its roots from lower rung of society because it reminds them of their deprevity and they feel humiliated when associated with it. The powers that be on the other hand has a very exclusive club where admission is quite pricey. So what has happened is that socialist agenda has only produced frustrated radicals among middle class, who would talk about revolutions by day and type their resumes for government jobsby the night. Middle class has no fault in it - that is their make up; middle Class usually is the most conservative of all - change scares them to death. Socialist agenda, however, should have reached the lowest of the low in the society first, if it were serious in changing the political order but the people who championed it were lazy and cowards - they did not hate illiteracy, they hated the illiterate instead - they did not hate the oppression they hated the oppressed instead - they did not hate poverty but they looked down upon the poor instead. And now they think that the generation who ``communicates`` with the world in Internet Cafes will bring their revolution. How wrong they are. The middle class generation who goes to Internet Cafe does not go there to ``communicate`` with the world, but to chat and see porno. The key to social change in Pakistan is the very down trodden. He is the one who sets the new political order - he always has - when empowered. Reach him; empower him; and most of all love him.
#1 Posted by bilal843 on February 10, 2005 12:41:02 pm
well Afiya, u are very right. the basic necessaties must be given to every citizen of the country. the consumerism has increased so is the inflation. the real estate industry is artifially hyped and as a result the rich r getting richer and poor r getting poorer day by day. the middle class is squeezed in between.
just to show how things are going on, i give an example from the city of Faisalabad. This city is a centre for textile industry of Pakistan and there are masses of illiterate men from adjoining areas who work here in the textile mills. these people are now exposed to cable networks which are beaming the ``mujras`` and the masala stuff. the impact is that there is increase in prostitution and sexual abuse ..
there must be some check on the social trends which can only be achieved when literacy is increased in the country. Illiteracy is the BASIC problem of our country and its my point of view that if masses are educated then 50% of problems will die out automatically.
just to show how things are going on, i give an example from the city of Faisalabad. This city is a centre for textile industry of Pakistan and there are masses of illiterate men from adjoining areas who work here in the textile mills. these people are now exposed to cable networks which are beaming the ``mujras`` and the masala stuff. the impact is that there is increase in prostitution and sexual abuse ..
there must be some check on the social trends which can only be achieved when literacy is increased in the country. Illiteracy is the BASIC problem of our country and its my point of view that if masses are educated then 50% of problems will die out automatically.
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