Cover-Up of a Gang Rape by the Military?
Aziz Narejo February 13, 2005
#131 Posted by tahmed32 on February 18, 2005 4:10:22 am
irfan: thanks for clarifying that you were in fact responding to specific things written by urstruly, teshah rather than in the broader context of this article.
On the question of self-respecting = ghairatmand = honorable, this is I think a very relevent issue in the context of this article. And central to the issues we face as a nation. That is, the issue is one of national character. And (as Napoleon said), character is destiny - for the individual and for nations. Thus, as I mentioned below, character is emphasized from kindergarten on in british and US schools - and it is no surprise that these nations provide leadership to the world. The feudal concept of ghairat (which IS really conceit and oppression, as HP correctly said earlier) has confused the issue.
But the feudal concept of ghairat is not how it used in the urdu press and pakistani leaders (as I mentioned earlier). That is the only point I wished to make clear in my posts on this issue.
On the question of self-respecting = ghairatmand = honorable, this is I think a very relevent issue in the context of this article. And central to the issues we face as a nation. That is, the issue is one of national character. And (as Napoleon said), character is destiny - for the individual and for nations. Thus, as I mentioned below, character is emphasized from kindergarten on in british and US schools - and it is no surprise that these nations provide leadership to the world. The feudal concept of ghairat (which IS really conceit and oppression, as HP correctly said earlier) has confused the issue.
But the feudal concept of ghairat is not how it used in the urdu press and pakistani leaders (as I mentioned earlier). That is the only point I wished to make clear in my posts on this issue.
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#130 Posted by tahmed32 on February 18, 2005 3:53:48 am
teshah #82 you write ``a sexy woman would naturally welcome it unless inhibited my extreme social taboos.``
So, it is the fault of the woman that she was raped. Would you be good enough to please confirm that you are being serious.
So, it is the fault of the woman that she was raped. Would you be good enough to please confirm that you are being serious.
#129 Posted by tahmed32 on February 18, 2005 3:50:07 am
Romair #125 : I have never made a secret of the questions you ask, and am very proud of my family`s military background and of the contributions my late father and other relations have made when they served in the military.
Before I start typing up my late father`s resume per your request, could you advise me first exactly how this would ``get a better idea of ``where (I am) coming from `` and on what issue this would give you a better idea?
Before I start typing up my late father`s resume per your request, could you advise me first exactly how this would ``get a better idea of ``where (I am) coming from `` and on what issue this would give you a better idea?
#128 Posted by teshah on February 17, 2005 5:33:34 pm
Re: # 124
Thank you dear. You are real HP, not raping any body,s sister or mother but only playng with your own life.
In fact rape is committed by a person when his sexual urge goes out of control and a sexy woman would naturally welcome it unless inhibited my extreme social taboos. I remember a statement of an ex-IG Police, Punjab, who had said,``How can the police check rapes when 90% women wished to be raped``. This so called `Ghairat` in the present Muslim society is causing extreme sex-starvation leading to an out break of sex crimes. What is actually reported to the police, etc., is only a tip of the iceberg. Original tribal Islam was very liberal in this respect. They had the non-muslim women for rape as loundies but now...
Thank you dear. You are real HP, not raping any body,s sister or mother but only playng with your own life.
In fact rape is committed by a person when his sexual urge goes out of control and a sexy woman would naturally welcome it unless inhibited my extreme social taboos. I remember a statement of an ex-IG Police, Punjab, who had said,``How can the police check rapes when 90% women wished to be raped``. This so called `Ghairat` in the present Muslim society is causing extreme sex-starvation leading to an out break of sex crimes. What is actually reported to the police, etc., is only a tip of the iceberg. Original tribal Islam was very liberal in this respect. They had the non-muslim women for rape as loundies but now...
#127 Posted by irfanhamid on February 17, 2005 3:25:47 pm
HP,
Didn`t realize when I read your original remark that it was a teaser, seemed to be smack dab in the middle of a serious conversation.
If I want to taste a good scotch I`ll just cross the channel and get some in the UK :)
There`s not too many desis where I`m at but I go to the UK often enough and I was growing tired of a A level dropout, cell-phone salesmen British-born desis patronizingly explaning to me how Pakistan should be improved (when their entire exposure to Pakistani society is that summer they spent at Khala jee`s house). Obviously there are more perceptive people with much more substantive contributions to make.
The ghairat issue is an example of yet another *ism. We have nationalism being factored out and parcelled to smaller and smaller groups. At one time it was Punjabi vs Pathan, Sindhi vs Balochi (and all permutations of that). But now we have Potohari vs Seraiki, Bugti vs Marri and so on. Once you descend one level there`s always another low, always another racial/tribal/linguistic distinction to be made. It sucks but that`s the way it is.
Irfan.
PS: I`m pretty relaxed, just don`t like being told I`m condoning rape and defending a rapist.
Didn`t realize when I read your original remark that it was a teaser, seemed to be smack dab in the middle of a serious conversation.
If I want to taste a good scotch I`ll just cross the channel and get some in the UK :)
There`s not too many desis where I`m at but I go to the UK often enough and I was growing tired of a A level dropout, cell-phone salesmen British-born desis patronizingly explaning to me how Pakistan should be improved (when their entire exposure to Pakistani society is that summer they spent at Khala jee`s house). Obviously there are more perceptive people with much more substantive contributions to make.
The ghairat issue is an example of yet another *ism. We have nationalism being factored out and parcelled to smaller and smaller groups. At one time it was Punjabi vs Pathan, Sindhi vs Balochi (and all permutations of that). But now we have Potohari vs Seraiki, Bugti vs Marri and so on. Once you descend one level there`s always another low, always another racial/tribal/linguistic distinction to be made. It sucks but that`s the way it is.
Irfan.
PS: I`m pretty relaxed, just don`t like being told I`m condoning rape and defending a rapist.
#126 Posted by HP on February 17, 2005 1:42:24 pm
#123 by irfanhamid
This author is trying to place whole Sindh’s ghairat on this issue. His contention is that ALL Sindhi would die of Ghairat, because a sindhi Nihani(girl) was raped in Balochistan. He is not thinking of the moral and criminal side of the whole thing.
That’s why I was harping on this Ghairat thing so much. This author and many more in Pakistan are using Ghairat for political mileage. I doubt that they actually have any concern for the poor girl who went thru whatever happened there helplessly.
#125 Posted by Romair on February 17, 2005 1:30:55 pm
tahmad #various: Just to get a better idea of where you are coming from and your exposure to the Army, could I ask you whether your father was in the Army? I think you had mentioned that he was.
Also, was a career officer, i.e. did he spend his whole career in the Army? Was it his main career? What rank did he rise to?
And did you thus end up growing up in cantonments, if your father was in the Army?
Also, was a career officer, i.e. did he spend his whole career in the Army? Was it his main career? What rank did he rise to?
And did you thus end up growing up in cantonments, if your father was in the Army?
#124 Posted by HP on February 17, 2005 1:29:52 pm
#117 by irfanhamid
Aap tu bahut Jazbati ho gaya. I can understand it.
What I wrote was a little teaser all you had to was to respond in some other tease. Obviously, that was beyond you because you are still worried about who lives in Pakistan and who does not.
Tahmed has very succinctly replied to your post, so I am not going to go into that. But, I suggest you lighten up and if possible try and get some quality scotch in Pakistan from somewhere and drink that every day. I hope that will help you drop your Jazbatait somewhat.
Relax!
Btw, I was the last honorable man in Pakistan and I am in the US now. What are you gonna say now :-)
Mr. T is going to get on my case now ^_^
yahyajamil
You are a well read and a sharp person. This is an anonymous forum and nobody expect any body to post lot of information about them. I like your posts and am kind of surprised that despite the army background, you clearly show a solid knowledge of the ground situation in Pakistan. Cheer up and like I said to Irfan, Relax!
#123 Posted by irfanhamid on February 17, 2005 1:10:12 pm
tahmed32,
Help me out here. Where did I defend the rapist? It goes without saying that if he is guilty of rape then he should be awarded the punishment due. Nowhere have I said that rape is not a crime or should not be punished.
The author says ``The International Criminal Court (ICC) Statute, commonly referred as the Rome Statute, unequivocally declares rape as a crime against humanity under its Article 7, paragraph 2(f)``. But he is quoting it out of context (and quoting wrong paragraphs also by the way). The URL I gave in my last post (http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm#2) states (it is the text of the ICC Rome Statute):
``For the purpose of this Statute, ``crime against humanity`` means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:`` and the list below it includes rape. But this only becomes a crime against humanity if it meets the criteria set out in the preamble (widespread, systematic etc.)
#12 (Urstruly) states that the family should be provided sanctuary in a neutral foreign country, all evidence should be exported and a criminal investigation be carried out by experts of that country. #78 (Teshah) repeats that ``rape is a crime against humanity``. It was to these people that my post was addressed.
As for the ghairat issue, I didn`t claim that Pakistani men did or did not have it, nor that there exists or does not exist such a thing. All I said is that I found the discussion of ghairatmand vs honorable and the nuances drawn between the meanings pointless and didn`t want to comment on it. I only referred to it because it pertained to what HP said about honorable people leaving Pakistan. I didn`t allude to you in my post anywhere.
Finally about expatriates, what did I really say? I said it amazes me a lot to listen to what they have to say. I never said they don`t have a right to say what they want, who am I to impose restrictions on what can and can`t be said? EVERYBODY has a right to say what they want, even me by the way.
Irfan.
Help me out here. Where did I defend the rapist? It goes without saying that if he is guilty of rape then he should be awarded the punishment due. Nowhere have I said that rape is not a crime or should not be punished.
The author says ``The International Criminal Court (ICC) Statute, commonly referred as the Rome Statute, unequivocally declares rape as a crime against humanity under its Article 7, paragraph 2(f)``. But he is quoting it out of context (and quoting wrong paragraphs also by the way). The URL I gave in my last post (http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm#2) states (it is the text of the ICC Rome Statute):
``For the purpose of this Statute, ``crime against humanity`` means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:`` and the list below it includes rape. But this only becomes a crime against humanity if it meets the criteria set out in the preamble (widespread, systematic etc.)
#12 (Urstruly) states that the family should be provided sanctuary in a neutral foreign country, all evidence should be exported and a criminal investigation be carried out by experts of that country. #78 (Teshah) repeats that ``rape is a crime against humanity``. It was to these people that my post was addressed.
As for the ghairat issue, I didn`t claim that Pakistani men did or did not have it, nor that there exists or does not exist such a thing. All I said is that I found the discussion of ghairatmand vs honorable and the nuances drawn between the meanings pointless and didn`t want to comment on it. I only referred to it because it pertained to what HP said about honorable people leaving Pakistan. I didn`t allude to you in my post anywhere.
Finally about expatriates, what did I really say? I said it amazes me a lot to listen to what they have to say. I never said they don`t have a right to say what they want, who am I to impose restrictions on what can and can`t be said? EVERYBODY has a right to say what they want, even me by the way.
Irfan.
#122 Posted by sajal on February 17, 2005 1:09:44 pm
Sometimes the Pakistani`s living abroad contribute more to the Pakistani society than the ones actually living in Pakistan.
#121 Posted by tahmed32 on February 17, 2005 11:41:29 am
irfanhamid #120 one more thing: as for the statement about all ghairat mand people leaving for the west, that was HP`s statement - I know HP wont mind standing behind what he said, or retracting it upon further thought (as I think he should, since that statement obviously makes no sense and is not characteristic of HP`s generally well-reasoned posts).
and btw, all countries (chinese, indians, african nations, italians, irish, koreans and so on) consider their expatriate nationals to be a valued resource in a number of ways - including in terms of serving as the nation`s window to ideas and skills in the more developed world. So please dont apply that argument that third world elites once used to keep out ideas of democracies and rule of law and human rights. This argument was used in the 1950`s and 60`s to maintain dictatorships in the face of criticism by foreigners - and time has proven these arguments to be hollow. Your application of the same argument against fellow pakistanis living abroad is just as empty.
and btw, all countries (chinese, indians, african nations, italians, irish, koreans and so on) consider their expatriate nationals to be a valued resource in a number of ways - including in terms of serving as the nation`s window to ideas and skills in the more developed world. So please dont apply that argument that third world elites once used to keep out ideas of democracies and rule of law and human rights. This argument was used in the 1950`s and 60`s to maintain dictatorships in the face of criticism by foreigners - and time has proven these arguments to be hollow. Your application of the same argument against fellow pakistanis living abroad is just as empty.
#120 Posted by tahmed32 on February 17, 2005 11:17:38 am
irfanhamid: You are merely attempting to defend the rapist with your arguments. Yes, my friend, there is such a thing as ``ghairat``. Granted it is missing among many Pakistani men, but that does not mean that there is no such thing.
And your legalistic arguments are, with all due respect, absurd.
First, ``crime against humanity`` is a term used to determine if something is subject to criminal prosecution by an international court. But no one is saying that this should be tried by an international court - only that a full and prompt investigation should be undertaken and the suspects apprehended and punished to the full extent of the law. Do you have a problem with that.
Second, you try to make it appear that expatriate Pakistanis do not have a right to speak up about evils in Pakistan. With all due respect, but it IS the business AND the moral duty of Pakistanis everywhere to speak up. So dont try to draw these arbitrary restrictions on who has a right to speak up.
And your legalistic arguments are, with all due respect, absurd.
First, ``crime against humanity`` is a term used to determine if something is subject to criminal prosecution by an international court. But no one is saying that this should be tried by an international court - only that a full and prompt investigation should be undertaken and the suspects apprehended and punished to the full extent of the law. Do you have a problem with that.
Second, you try to make it appear that expatriate Pakistanis do not have a right to speak up about evils in Pakistan. With all due respect, but it IS the business AND the moral duty of Pakistanis everywhere to speak up. So dont try to draw these arbitrary restrictions on who has a right to speak up.
#119 Posted by tahmed32 on February 17, 2005 11:05:35 am
yahya sahib,
i did not read your profile. so i wasnt making insinuations with that question mark, merely expressing the fact that i could be wrong in assuming you were retired. i come to chowk because i am interested in what people have to say, not in who they are. of course our views are shaped, and our knowledge is based, on our real life backgrounds. it is only to that extent that i care about a person`s background on chowk. In fact, the thing I like about chowk discussions is that it does not matter whether you are young or old, and regardless of your station in life - we are all no more and no less than what we write.
I hope this clarifies by view on this and lifts any concerns you may have.
i did not read your profile. so i wasnt making insinuations with that question mark, merely expressing the fact that i could be wrong in assuming you were retired. i come to chowk because i am interested in what people have to say, not in who they are. of course our views are shaped, and our knowledge is based, on our real life backgrounds. it is only to that extent that i care about a person`s background on chowk. In fact, the thing I like about chowk discussions is that it does not matter whether you are young or old, and regardless of your station in life - we are all no more and no less than what we write.
I hope this clarifies by view on this and lifts any concerns you may have.
#118 Posted by yahyajamil on February 17, 2005 9:47:45 am
Re: # 110
``As an (ex?) army officer``
tahmed sahib,
Although I am proud of my 26 1/2 years of service in the Army your insinuation that I am serving is in bad taste. I have posted my name and place where I am residing in the profile on chowk and also what I am doing now for living. This is more than what you and many others have indicated about themselves. Perhaps you think that like you, I am trying to hide who I am? I have nothing to hide.Since your origins are presumably Pakistani why don`t you have me checked out. I can give my address should you require it.
``As an (ex?) army officer``
tahmed sahib,
Although I am proud of my 26 1/2 years of service in the Army your insinuation that I am serving is in bad taste. I have posted my name and place where I am residing in the profile on chowk and also what I am doing now for living. This is more than what you and many others have indicated about themselves. Perhaps you think that like you, I am trying to hide who I am? I have nothing to hide.Since your origins are presumably Pakistani why don`t you have me checked out. I can give my address should you require it.
#117 Posted by irfanhamid on February 17, 2005 9:27:01 am
Everyone seems to be in an emotional upheaval about this issue, which is understandable. But people, please, get your facts straight. The rape of a woman is NOT a crime against humanity. Merriam-Webster`s Dictionary of Law 1996:
``crime against hu·man·i·ty: An inhumane act (as enslavement) committed against civilians before or during a war for which criminal liability is imposed by a domestic or international tribunal see also war crime``
http://www.answers.com/topic/crime-against-humanity
The International Criminal Court established in 2003 defines it in a similar vein:
http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm#2
I won`t get into the honorable vs ghairatmand discussion because it seems pointless. But someone in the middle said that all self-respecting, honorable people have left Pakistan for the west. I would just like to ask you a few questions:
1. Have all, or even a majority of people, who immigrated done so for abstract notions of freedom, liberty etc. or for more palpable reasons such as financial opportunities, educational opportunities or a better quality of life?
2. If all good people have immigrated, does it mean that everyone left in Pakistan is a scumbag? If so, when did all the good people leave? Another angle of the problem: what if someone leaves Pakistan now? Is (s)he an immigrating scumbag or does he immediately become expiated of all that is bad while passing through customs at JFK/Heathrow etc.?
3. Seeing the fact that almost all who leave Pakistan are either the educated/monied elite (going to the US, to some extent to the UK), or labor-class people going to the ME, does it mean that the rest of the people in Pakistan, specially the poor who cannot afford to immigrate, are by definition dishonorable scum?
It amazes me a lot how people who manage to escape to the west suddenly become experts in Pakistani internal affairs and societal ills (and ways to fix them) and begin offering deep, knowledgable insights to those who still live there.
Irfan
``crime against hu·man·i·ty: An inhumane act (as enslavement) committed against civilians before or during a war for which criminal liability is imposed by a domestic or international tribunal see also war crime``
http://www.answers.com/topic/crime-against-humanity
The International Criminal Court established in 2003 defines it in a similar vein:
http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm#2
I won`t get into the honorable vs ghairatmand discussion because it seems pointless. But someone in the middle said that all self-respecting, honorable people have left Pakistan for the west. I would just like to ask you a few questions:
1. Have all, or even a majority of people, who immigrated done so for abstract notions of freedom, liberty etc. or for more palpable reasons such as financial opportunities, educational opportunities or a better quality of life?
2. If all good people have immigrated, does it mean that everyone left in Pakistan is a scumbag? If so, when did all the good people leave? Another angle of the problem: what if someone leaves Pakistan now? Is (s)he an immigrating scumbag or does he immediately become expiated of all that is bad while passing through customs at JFK/Heathrow etc.?
3. Seeing the fact that almost all who leave Pakistan are either the educated/monied elite (going to the US, to some extent to the UK), or labor-class people going to the ME, does it mean that the rest of the people in Pakistan, specially the poor who cannot afford to immigrate, are by definition dishonorable scum?
It amazes me a lot how people who manage to escape to the west suddenly become experts in Pakistani internal affairs and societal ills (and ways to fix them) and begin offering deep, knowledgable insights to those who still live there.
Irfan
#116 Posted by yahyajamil on February 17, 2005 9:04:36 am
Re: # 110
`` As an (ex?) army officer, you should be most strongly calling for proper investigation. ``
tahmed sahib,
In all my posts where have I said that the matter be hushed up? In fact if you read my earlier posts, I have said that let the investigation conclude and then make judgements. I agree with you that the Army leadership should have taken measures to heal the lady`s wounds.
`` As an (ex?) army officer, you should be most strongly calling for proper investigation. ``
tahmed sahib,
In all my posts where have I said that the matter be hushed up? In fact if you read my earlier posts, I have said that let the investigation conclude and then make judgements. I agree with you that the Army leadership should have taken measures to heal the lady`s wounds.
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