Cover-Up of a Gang Rape by the Military?

HP: and just to clarify futher, let me use the term in the context of this article by trying to translate the following into english: ``No ghairat mand individual would commit rape``.
Now, replace ``ghairat mand individual`` with each of the two translations (i.e. ``self respecting`` and then your definition ``vain, egotistical , arrogant , conceited and believer in in feudal values``). See which one makes sense.

Milord, I rest my case.

HP: Ghairat AS USED BY FEUDALS is certainly along the lines you say. But Shoresahib is right: the reasonable definition of ghairat is ``honorable``; NOT ``vain, egotistical , arrogant , conceited and he believes in feudal values``. Of course a vain, conceited, feudal will use ghairat the way you say. But, since I have not had the pleasure of living among such creatures, I have always heard ghairat to be the equivalent to ``self respecting``. And self respecting is close enough to honorable (a self respecting man is by defintiion an honorable man).

And indeed, even in the urdu press and in speeches given in urdu by Pakistani leaders, the term is used to mean self-respecting (as in ``Pakistan aik ghairat mand qaum hai``).

Is there anything here that remotely relates to Ghairat!
Pay attention to 8.

hon·or Audio pronunciation of ``honor`` ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nr)
n.

1. High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate.
2.
1. Good name; reputation.
2. A source or cause of credit: was an honor to the profession.
3.
1. Glory or recognition; distinction.
2. A mark, token, or gesture of respect or distinction: the place of honor at the table.
3. A military decoration.
4. A title conferred for achievement.
4. High rank.
5. The dignity accorded to position: awed by the honor of his office.
6. Great privilege: I have the honor to present the governor.
7. Honor Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for certain officials, such as judges and mayors: Her Honor the Mayor.
8.
1. Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity.
2. A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms.
3. A woman`s chastity or reputation for chastity.
9. honors Social courtesies offered to guests: did the honors at tea.
10. honors
1. Special recognition for unusual academic achievement: graduated with honors.
2. A program of individual advanced study for exceptional students: planned to take honors in history.
11. Sports. The right of being first at the tee in golf.
12. Games.
1. Any of the four or five highest cards, especially the ace, king, queen, jack, and ten of the trump suit, in card games such as bridge or whist.
2. The points allotted to these cards. Often used in the plural.

HP:
Let me give you an Urdu Lesson. You say, ``Honorable person in Urdu would be a “Sharif Adami” Emaandar adami, law abiding, respecting, respectful and respected.

Honor has nothing to do with Ghairat as you and others are describing it
Honor is Sharafat, Mohabat, Akhlaq and responsibility. ``

Sharif Admi = Noble or Decent Man
Emaandar Adami = Honest Man
Sharafat = Nobility of character or Decency
Akhlaq either Bud or Khush = Good way of interacting and treating others or bad way
Mohabat = Love

Ghairat = Honor
Ghairatmund = One of honorable character
A Sharif Adami is not necessarily honorable. They are two completely different things, and an honorable man is not necessarily Sharif. Though these characteristics are interlinked, they are not interdependant.

tahmed
“Ghairatmand maienaiN Honorable”

Tahmed you are making a serious mistake.

Honorable person in Urdu would be a “Sharif Adami” Emaandar adami, law abiding, respecting, respectful and respected.

Honor has nothing to do with Ghairat as you and others are describing it
Honor is Sharafat, Mohabat, Akhlaq and responsibility.

A Gahairat mand person is vain, egotistical , arrogant , conceited and he believes in feudal values, prefers feudal and religious laws to the law of the land created by human being. He believes in religious retributions and punishments.
Ghairat is a feudal and tribal concept. 90% of the feudal and tribal laws are specifically against women, and deal with different aspects of man and woman relations, and in every single case, the woman is always humiliated. Because any thing related to women is a ghairat issue.
All religions were conceived and progressed in feudal and tribal societies. Hence, all of them treat women like a non-entity always making mistakes and easy picking.

Islam specifically is a product of a harsh tribal culture thus it is unable to deal with women, their rights and allows men to treat women as their property.
If you think of it in todays world a Ghairat mand man is actually a dishonorable person.

Ijaz,
Good post and I think there is an attempt to take a political mileage out of the whole thing!

#90 by ijaz_gul on February 16, 2005 7:13am PT
It amazez me how the flight by night reformers, living in an adopted land show contempt towards their country. They, like the oppotunists who are trying to make political capital out of this tragic though mishandled incident are ready to generalise the entire populace as BeGhairat. Any community worth its salt has a code of ethics and behavior and most abide by it.

ijaz:

bhai you are right only to a degree when you say we should wait for the truth to come out and not speculate in the dark...

but

if i we can learn from the past:

--there is no rule of law in pakistan and if there is:
(a) there is one set of laws for the mighty, and
(b) another set of laws for the rest

we all know who the mighty and the rest are

digression:

why do you think (it is as if almost in our genes) there is scant respect for law -- man made or ordained?

(sorry this is going to become longer than i had intended)

the same pakistani who flaunts traffic and other minor laws instantly convert to law abiding citizens when abroad...dubai, m-e. europe, n-a...have pondered over this and i think the primary reason is that they acquire a new respect for law abroad because they learn that abroad in other societies if they violate the law they will get justice...

yes, that is it: they will get justice so they obey the law

in pakistan hoping to get justice is directly proportional to your ability to influence the law -- through money, power or influence...this naturally results in scant and unhealthy respect for laws of the land by most pakistanis...

have you visited jails recently?...the young and old, both genders who are incarcerated ..without trial, or for not paying minimal fines...for years and years is a travesty of all norms...and they have no hope in hell to get justice...

...if you have tenancy or commercial issues...grease the palms...heck why am i telling you all this?...we all know the rich and powerful can get away with murder and the poor will get stuck with it...

(the solution? to bring in ways and means to enable the judiciary and law enforcement to become real independent...that means a will and ability to finance their reforms...finance means diversion of money away from defence related expenditures to civilians coffers...enhancing and amelirating the living conditions including law and order means emphasis away from occupying army dictated issues of national concern -- kashmir, defence, security, blah blah...this whole rigmarole ends with the occupying army and my unabasahed declarations on every forum and thread)

...excuse me for not following the other interesting debate over ghairat and honour...to me its relevancy here is questionable as i hope i have been able to postulate re: law, order and respect for it...

rgds

t

ijaz gul #92
Abu ghraib- this is exactly my point. 27 (?) military men/women are being tried. in 1971, 0 military men were tried. The fact that the mukti bahini did atrocities against west pakistanis is not an excuse. We must live to the standards of ``ghairat`` - not to the low standards of others.

Tahmed,
My comments are only for those whome it may concern.

Talking of the Enron within the army. Yes I agree in some ways. Being a defence analyst, I know that military corporatism and exclusivity if taken to extreme can have a negative effect. This happened in Abu Gharaib and in many other places of the world. It has perhaps also happened in the Pakistani armed forces.

Too much political interventions and the civilisation of military garrisons have indeed, also cut into this corporatism and exclusivity. Moreover, armies world over are the sole judges of their professional capabilities, and the Enron Syndrome is more likely to prevail here than anywhere else.

I do not agree that the army will cover up this incident. Such incidents are never condoned.

As regards, East Pakistan, it remains debatable. I know many incidents where women of West Pakistani origin were dishonoured, maimed and mutilated in the genitals. In this sad chapter of history, inhuman excesses were committed by both sides.

Cheerios

ijaz gul: I for one live abroad, but remain very proud of my Pakistani heritage, and have nothing but the highest respect for the ghairatmand among pakistanis (examples given in #89 and 85 below, not to mention the millions of lesser known pakistanis who may be poor but are proud and would rather give than receive). Tell me if my example of Enron in #88 below is not correct.

It amazez me how the flight by night reformers, living in an adopted land show contempt towards their country. They, like the oppotunists who are trying to make political capital out of this tragic though mishandled incident are ready to generalise the entire populace as BeGhairat. Any community worth its salt has a code of ethics and behavior and most abide by it.

Do they show similar sentiments when meniacs and serial killers rape and kill women in the West?

As I can guess, this is a case of a women amongst many men, in an environment that is socially monotonous and boring. Three condoms used by the same person indicate that either it was not a gang rape or there is some other twist about which I would not like to gossip.

Having worked in Balochistan for a long time, I know that incidents can trigger unrelated events. Discussing with a friend who is a geoloist and who has done lots of work in Sui, PirKoh Blocks, I learnt that it is impposible for a single captain to twist events or to boss around in Sui. The frontier Corps has a complete Battalion located at sui commanded by a Lt. Col with many officers. It is impossible that this captain could have acted as a lone macho man in the presence of this security. He also told me that after an incident at the compressor station in 1990, the security and intelligence at Sui had been beafed up and never reduced. He remains of the opinion that in times to come an entirely different story of events will be discovered.

So as I wrote earlier let us wait for the facts , which I am sure will be revealed particularly when the reputation of institutions is being questioned.

Cheerios

hamidm #87

Lesson 1 (Repeat after me)

Cat maenaiN Billi
Dog maenaiN Kutta
Sher maenaiN Lion
Ghairatmand maienaiN Honorable

Then go back and reread what I said in #85 and tell me if the examples I gave (the Jilani sisters, Edhi, Bhatti) are not the correct examples of a ghairatmand. WHile the examples you give (khar, jernails, hussein ahmed) are in fact of beghairats. Lets not confuse this important issue which will determine whether Pakistan emerges as a ghairatmand nation (i.e. the Jilanis and edhis and bhattis win) or a beghairat nation (i.e. if the military and mullahs and corrupt politicans win).

yahya #86 There is no doubt that the Pakistan Army is internally highly disciplined. However, that is a bit like saying Enron accounting ledgers were neat and balanced - its just that those perfectly balanced accounts were used to defraud tens of thousands of little guys off of their pension savings, and cause a major corporate scandal in the US. Similarly, it is scandalous the way in which the military has taken over the government in Pakistan.

``ghairatmand`` vs. ``honorable``

............ tahmed and mother teresa are honorable (i couldn`t think of anyone else in pakistan)
.............echoboom, qazi hussain, akbar bugti, mustafa khar, and the pakistani army are ghairatmand

.............. hope this helps

Re: # 81
Your point about my being in military is incorrect. I shed the uniform 8 years back. I am also not trying to do PR for the military. I have no such desire. Had I been in the military PR bussiness, I would have told them to come out with their version rather than maintain a silence that is leading to all sorts of conjectures. I feel that an individual act (that has not even been proved) is being made to look like an institutional failing. Pakistan Army may have made a hash of good governance and instituional building but like all professional and disciplined armies it does not sanction indiscipline and overlook crimes. I can also say that what is going on in Kashmir is sanctioned by the Indian military , otherwise there should have been an accountability after 16 years of rape of women in Kashmir. Your point that you knew that I will bring up the excesses in Kashmir does not prove that these excesses were not commited. I still maintain that both Indian and Pakistani Armies are professional and disciplined organisations and do not sanction rape or plunder as institutions. You have quoted one report on 1971. I can bring up for your information a history of 16 years of human right excesses in Kashmir by Indian Security Forces? Do we want to live in history and start of a round of accusations. 50 years of doing that has got us nowhere. As I said we can continue to be emotional about the issue, but that does not alter the fact that many members on this forum are making an alleged individual act look like an institutional act.

IMPORTANT: My posts #82, 83, 84 are disjointed and confusing. Please ignore them with my apologies. The corrected version is here:

HP #73 That is a very interesting list of characteristics of ``ghairat mand`` (in the sense of being merely oppressive to women and other weak people) vs an ``honorable`` that you draw. I am not confusing this distinction - all I am saying is that there are two different understandings of ``ghairat mand`` - i.e. (1) Honorable Person; and (2) Bullies. And I agree with the characteristics you provide in your list for each. (I would like to add a third list, and will come to it later below).

I am not confusing the distinction, just using different terms. That is, what I am saying is that the term ``ghairat mand`` is used in different senses by different people in Pakistan. The jahils use it as (2), no doubt, and are mighty proud of it. However, there are people in Pakistan (and not just among expatriate Pakistanis alone as you say) who use the term as (1).

Examples of (1) in Pakistan include: Edhi, to start with the first example I can think of, who lives a simple life style while managing a nonprofit organization worth tens of millions of dollars; the maulvi who spoke out on friday prayers against the gang rape of mukhtaran bibi by the landlord and his men, thus making it a national and later international issue; Major Aziz Bhatti who stood his ground and fought till his last breath against overwhelming odds to defend the city of Lahore in 1965; Asma and Hina Jilani, whose bravery against oppression has inspired people around the world (see link
Pakistani Sisters` Bravery Inspires Human Rights Advocates - article by American Bar Association

Thus, there is no shortage of ghairat mand (in the correct sense) people in Pakistan. Then we have the type (3), the baigharats. These are basically type (2), except they are smart enough to know what they are doing is wrong but do it anyway (these include ambitious maulvis, military officials, and oxford educated landlords like benazir).

So, to summarize, I agree with the distinction you make - and simply wish to point out that we do have truly honorable people in Pakistan as well. Indeed, my scientific research (just joking) conducted after travelling to many countries across the globe indicates that Pakistanis are second to none when in comes to honorable people.

What is missing in Pakistan (as I think is true in most countries) is the emphasis given to character building in schools; character building in the sense of instilling values provided in your list (1), not the type (2) jahaliyat that goes for ``ghairat`` among the ``dangars`` in Pakistan. This character building has I think been the distinctive feature of all successful societies - the list you drew for (1) matches in fact the list the county I live in has issued for use in all public schools!! The brits meant the same thing when they said that ``Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton`` (i.e. where character building was instilled). I will agree with you that this is character building, i.e. ghairat mand in the sense of your list (1), needs to be strengthened in the vast majority of Pakistani schools.

correction to #83. Second sentence after the link should read ``These are basically type (1)...``