Cover-Up of a Gang Rape by the Military?

further to #82 : looks like my post got cut off, so here is the rest (starts with the link I refer to in #82):

Pakistani Sisters` Bravery Inspires Human Rights Advocates - article by American Bar Association

Thus, there is no shortage of ghairat mand (in the correct sense) people in Pakistan. Then we have the type (3), the baigharats. These are basically type (2), except they are smart enough to know what they are doing is wrong but do it anyway (these include ambitious maulvis, military officials, and oxford educated landlords like benazir).

So, to summarize, I agree with the distinction you make - and simply wish to point out that we do have truly honorable people in Pakistan as well. Indeed, my scientific research (just joking) conducted after travelling to many countries across the globe indicates that Pakistanis are second to none when in comes to honorable people.

What is missing in Pakistan (as I think is true in most countries) is the emphasis given to character building in schools; character building in the sense of instilling values provided in your list (1), not the type (2) jahaliyat that goes for ``ghairat`` among the ``dangars`` in Pakistan. This character building has I think been the distinctive feature of all successful societies - the list you drew for (1) matches in fact the list the county I live in has issued for use in all public schools!! The brits meant the same thing when they said that ``Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton`` (i.e. where character building was instilled).

HP #73 That is a very interesting list of characteristics of ``ghairat mand`` (in the sense of being merely oppressive to women and other weak people) vs an ``honorable`` that you draw. I am not confusing this distinction - all I am saying is that there are two different understandings of ``ghairat mand`` - i.e. (1) Oppressor of women and other people in a position of weakness etc., i.e. bully; and (2) Honorable man. (I would like to add a third list, and will come to it later below).

I am not confusing the distinction, just using different terms. That is, what I am saying is that the term ``ghairat mand`` is used in different senses in Pakistan. The jahils use it as (1), no doubt, and are mighty proud of it. However, there are people in Pakistan (and not just among expatriate Pakistanis alone as you say) who use the term as (2).

Examples of (2) in Pakistan include: Edhi, to start with the first example I can think of, who lives a simple life style while managing a nonprofit organization worth tens of millions of dollars; the maulvi who spoke out on friday prayers against the gang rape of mukhtaran bibi by the landlord and his men, thus making it a national and later international issue; Major Aziz Bhatti who stood his ground and fought till his last breath against overwhelming odds to defend the city of Lahore in 1965; Asma and Hina Jilani, whose bravery against oppression has inspired people around the world (see link Pakistani Sister`s Bravery Inspires Human Rights Advocates - article by the American Bar Association; the Lahore cab drivers who refused payment from Indian visitors during the cricket matches last spring; the list goes on.

So, fortunately, there are enough ``ghairat man`` (in the sense of ``honorable``) people in Pakistan. And then there is the type (3) I mentioned above - this is a subtype of (1) basically, except that they are intelligent enough to know that what they are doing is wrong but do it anyway (these include politically ambitious maulvis and generals, oxford educated landlords in politics and so on).

#80

Dear Mr Jamil,

I would like to draw your attention to some recently declassified US documents on the Bangladesh war. Which are archived at:

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/

And in particular to the famous telegram by Archer Blood (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB1.pdf). In which he starts with:

I quote:
``Here in Dacca we are mute and horrified witnesses to the reign of terror by the pakistan military.``

With these and other documentary evidence now availalbe I would very humbly postutate that the Pakistani Army did in fact ``sanction such indiscipline`` and much more in 1971.

Yes, I know you will repond with stories about Kashmir and so on and so forth. It is not my intention to debate this with you. I understand you belng to the ``public relations`` profession and to the Pakistan Army, this I understand is a tough calling in life.

Re: # 67
(Simple...it was a gang-rape..they didn`t want the second guy to get an infection from the first guy..)
Perhaps you have not read the whole news item. It was in the News and you can read it on the internet. The news report says that according to tests, the semen belonged to one person. So, how is it gang rape. Please what I am trying to say is that we are getting carried away by media. I believe even this particular story may be planted. We have to be rational and the sort of discussion on `ghairat` that is going on seems to miss the point. This incident is not about ghairat. It is a heinous crime that must be dealt with as a crime .

(They did it in Bangladesh...so it`s par for the course... )

I can quote rape of women in Kashmir by Indian security forces that have been established by independent observors, but does that make the Indian Army an organisation that encourages rape and plunder. What happened in Bangladesh or Kashmir were perhaps individual acts which were not sanctioned by the institutions involved. We can hurl accusations and counter accusations about Kashmir and Bangladesh but that has little to do with the issue that we are discussing. Let me tell you that no professional Army (and both Indian and Pakistani Armies are professional) can afford to sanction such indiscipline.

#61 by yahyajamil

[If you are implying that the person who committed rape thought he would never be caught, then why use condoms? Your argument is going round in circles.]

A rapist can use a condom for a variety of reasons, not the least of them being burdened with unwanted consequences. Of course, Arjun also has a very valid reason.

[From my experience of over a quarter of a century in uniform let me tell you that no military person will commit a rape thinking that he will get away because the Army will protect him. He may assume that he may not be caught, but one thing is for sure if it is established that a military person has committed an offence, there is no maafi.]

Not a single person till date has been convicted for the rapes in Bangladesh.

Re: # 29

Rape is a crime against humanity. Why to invoke religion here. All politically organized religions are as a rule sectarian and hence discriminatory. Morality and justice are subservient to their sectarian, political and parochial considerations. Even the gods of some of them preach hatred of those who do not believe in them exclusively.

Now coming to the Shariah, so for as rape is concerned it is not considered a crime as such if it is committed with a person who, in Quranic words, comes into possession of one`s right hand (generally in consequence of plunder). In fact even today the very concept of `human rights and citizenship` is alien to the societies and the states where the sectarian religions dominate. What a pity that the victim of rape at Sui has been declared as `Kari` in absentia without any investigation whereas the accused is now `under investigation` without arrest to assure him that he is not to be convicted of a crime which carries death sentence. Is it not a `Jahilia` culture par excellence where the `Islamic` Constitution is supposed to reign supreme?

HP you have literally lit a few fuses....hope you are fire proof.....73 has them steaming and sweating and frothing. 8-()

you say ``I am not saying that Pakistan lacks honorable people but most of them have already moved to the US after encounters with the (expletive)Ghairatmand man. ``

Yep, they have stretched out for the safe havens............

HP,
You are so wrong!!!!

ghairat means honor and any honorable person is ghairatmand be it a woman or man. What you are talking about is a sick , twisted , sadistic view of ghairat and believe me that is not ghairat .

Re: # 73
I consider myself GhairatMund, and I dont fit even a single example of your Profile.
Such utter nonsense.
The problem is not with the concept of Ghairat, but with Its perversion.

Re: # 73
Where do you dream up such utter garbage!
Ghairat is the Urdu word for Honor.
DUH!

Tahmed,

I think you are mixing up honorable person with a (expletive) Ghairatmand Pakistani.

Here are some characteristics of an honorable person:
1. Never lies.
2. Lives a principled life
3. Incorruptible
4. Respects all religions and faiths
5. Treats people equally and respects people
6. You add more…

Here are some characteristics of a Ghairatmand man (not person because no woman is ever ghairatmand)

1. Believes in feudal traditions
2. Uses religion as his ghar ki londi
3. Hates his female relatives- mother, sister, and wife
4. Would not allow his female relative to set foot outside of house, without fifty yards of cotton on their faces.
5. Would not allow rape victims to live a peaceful life.
6. Would kill his wife or sister for having sex with other men.
7. Would brag about his sexual exploits in every mehfil.
8. Pulls religion out and the Quran out of his hip pocket on every issue
9. Would quote the Quran on the fly!
10. Supports honor killing.

I mean I can go on and on… This despicable character the Ghairatmand man is a proud follower of tribal and feudal traditions.

I am not saying that Pakistan lacks honorable people but most of them have already moved to the US after encounters with the (expletive)Ghairatmand man.

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Rahul_capri here is the article

The article is called What is Feminism (and why do we have to talk about it so much)?

and is available at

http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/1feminism.html


http://cobalt.lang.osaka-u.ac.jp/~krkvls/culstud.html also has some very interesting essays on this and gender /culture studies
for some interesting articles yb some theorists in these areas.

Rahul_capri here is the article

The article is called What is Feminism (and why do we have to talk about it so much)?

and is available at

http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/1feminism.html

Re: # 67
Thank you Arjun!

Re: # 66
So true!