Cover-Up of a Gang Rape by the Military?

Re: # 176

It is all one way trafic. MM is the benificiary both ways. No body tells the story of the other side. Even if we believe the one sided story eulogising the MM, she was sexed only in compliance with the decision of the people`s court which represented the decision of the majority. It appears all men in Pakistan have turned `Bharuas` who have started a compaign of pandering to the female sex. Tuf he tum par.

Re: # 176

It is all one way trafic. MM is the benificiary both ways. No body tells the story of the other side. Even if we believe the one sided story eulogising the MM, she was sexed only in compliance with the decision of the people`s court which represented the decision of the majority. It appears all men in Pakistan have turned `Bharuas` who have started a compaign of pandering to the female sex. Tuf he tum par.

Re: # 176

Why be so moralistic about sex which is a purely cultural matter? As the MM`s rape story goes the Mai was raped in compliance with a decision of the peoples court called Punchayat. It was accepted by the majority at least as a normal quick execution of
justice. It was only a mullah of the village, who perhaps out of jealousy that he was not appointed as the executioner by the Punchayat, blew the matter out of proportion. As a result the Mai has gained a lot and is now likely to become a political leader like Phoolan Devi. The moral element if any involved in this case is the exposure of the brutality and mockery of the so called judicial system in the Land of the Pure.

When Rapists Walk Free

When Rapists Walk Free
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Published: March 5, 2005
One of the gutsiest people on earth is Mukhtaran Bibi. And after this week, she`ll need
that courage just to survive.
Mukhtaran, a tall, slim young woman who never attended school as a child, lives in a poor
and remote village in the Punjab area of Pakistan. As part of a village dispute in 2002,
a tribal council decided to punish her family by sentencing her to be gang-raped. She
begged and cried, but four of her neighbors immediately stripped her and carried out the
sentence. Then her tormenters made her walk home naked while her father tried to


shield her from the eyes of 300 villagers. Mukhtaran was meant to be so shamed that she
would commit suicide. But in a society where women are supposed to be soft and helpless,
she proved indescribably tough, and she found the courage to live. She demanded the
prosecution of her attackers, and six were sent to death row.
She received $8,300 in compensation and used it to start two schools in the village, one
for boys and one for girls, because she feels that education is the best way to change
attitudes like those that led to the attack on her. Illiterate herself, she then enrolled
in her own elementary school.

Nicholas D. Kristof/The New York Times
Mukhtaran Bibi in September 2004.
I visited Mukhtaran in her village in September and wrote a column about her. Readers
responded with an avalanche of mail, including 1,300 donations for Mukhtaran totaling
$133,000.
The money arrived just in time, for Mukhtaran`s schools had run out of funds. She had
sold her family`s cow to keep them open because she believes so passionately in the
redemptive power of education.
Now that cash from readers has put the schools on a sound financial footing again. And
Mercy Corps, a first-rate American aid group already active in Pakistan, has agreed to
assist Mukhtaran in spending the money wisely. The next step will be to start an
ambulance service for the area so sick or injured villagers can get to a hospital.
Down the road, Mukhtaran says, she will try to start her own aid group to battle honor
killings. And even though she lives in a remote village without electricity, she has
galvanized her supporters to launch a Web site: www.mukhtarmai.com. (Although her legal
name is Mukhtaran Bibi, she is known in the Pakistani press by a variant, Mukhtar Mai).
Until two days ago, she was thriving. Then - disaster.
A Pakistani court overturned the death sentences of all six men convicted in the attack
on her and ordered five of them freed. They are her neighbors and will be living
alongside her. Mukhtaran was in the courthouse and collapsed in tears, fearful of the
risk this brings to her family.
``Yes, there is danger,`` she said by telephone afterward. ``We are afraid for our lives,
but we will face whatever fate brings for us.``
Mukhtaran, not the kind of woman to squander money on herself by flying, even when she
has access to $133,000, took an exhausting 12-hour bus ride to Islamabad yesterday to
appeal to the Supreme Court. Mercy Corps will help keep her in a safe location, and those
donations from readers may keep her alive for the time being. But for the long term,
Mukhtaran has always said she wants to stay in her village, whatever the risk, because
that`s where she can make the most difference.
I had planned to be in Pakistan this week to write a follow-up column about Mukhtaran.
But after a month`s wait, the Pakistani government has refused to give me a visa,
presumably out of fear that I would write more about Pakistani nuclear peddling. (Hmm, a
good idea. ...)
Mukhtaran`s life illuminates what will be the central moral challenge of this century,
the brutality that is the lot of so many women and girls in poor countries. For starters,
because of inattention to maternal health, a woman dies in childbirth in the developing
world every minute.
In Pakistan, if a woman reports a rape, four Muslim men must generally act as witnesses
before she can prove her case. Otherwise, she risks being charged with fornication or
adultery - and suffering a public whipping and long imprisonment.
Mukhtaran is a hero. She suffered what in her society was the most extreme shame
imaginable - and emerged as a symbol of virtue. She has taken a sordid story of perennial
poverty, gang rape and judicial brutality and inspired us with her faith in the power of
education - and her hope.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/05/opinion/05kristof.html
E-mail: nicholas@nytimes.com

Addendum to my earlier post:

March is considered to be the Women`s History Month and is celebrated with performances, lectures and special events highlighting the successes and progress women have made so far. It`s ironic that women in Pakistan are still decades behind the rest of the world. And, the most crucial factor is the prevalent environment and the $hitty culture that contribute to the social menace. The month of March should be a month mourning for the women in Pakistan.

Re: # 173

What do you expect from the worshippers of the `Black Stone` (just by the way) and that too at the public expense? They are only ritualistic stuntbaz, `Inshallah, Mashallah`. It is Jahilia par-excellence, enlightened only with regard to their self interest.

Please read this also.

``Piety at public expense

The practice of flaunting their fake piety at the public expense by the latest three successive PMs reminds one of Quaide Aazam who never used his religion as a political stunt though his opponents often raised propaganda about his ignorance of religious rituals like namaz, etc. As regards Hajj and Umra, neither Allama Iqbal nor the Quaid ever performed this ritual. They both achieved their place in the political struggle for the emancipation of Indian Muslims on the basis of their sincerity of purpose and honesty of character. How much the Quaid was scrupulous in this respect I quote one instance. In 1945 (if I rightly recollect) during his visit to Peshawar a delegation of mullahs belonging to Muslim League met the Quaid and requested him to offer his Jumma prayer at Masjid Mahabat Khan to show the people that he knows how to offer Namaz so as to negate the propaganda of the Congressite mullahs against him on this account. The Quid was very displeased at this suggestion and said to the delegation, ``Do you want to make my religion a political stunt? I had intended to offer Namaz at that very mosque today but I would do so now at Landikotal whereto I am proceeding today.`` This was quite in keeping with the Seeratunabi. Our Prophet (PBUH) had also initiated his `Dahwah` on the basis of his character of truthfulness and honesty and not on any ritualistic stuntbazi``.

The following should tell everyone the Pakistani Government`s stance on any legislation supporting women`s rights. Keep on dreaming!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4311055.stm

#171 by ZahraJ

Democracy? Yes, I would always prefer democracy over any form of dictatorship but I would never be a silent spectator under a democracy either.


A post under Beena Sarwar`s article:

#45 by Charlie on February 22, 2005 4:05pm PT
Captain Hammad is a nephew of the wife of a key Corps Commander posted north of Rawalpindi who is also related to General Musharraf’s military staff, a Major General.
What is the value of ``Bloody civilians`` in front of a ``high profile army officer``.

All documents are going to be fake? Poor Doctor is going to possess bad character.

Dr Shazia says she can`t sleep. then why General should sleep in presidentail palace. The palace he captured without reasons. this way, he took the responsibility of providing justice to all people of the country. Musharraf is a culprit. Every night, Dr Shazia is sleepless and he sleeps, he becomes worse culprit.

Then PPL officials, Police and Army men. how cheap. Every body is negatively involved in the case. Civil servants (PPL) are playing dirty games of changing statements. Police is dirty as always. talking of them make me feel stink. And Army: May lord destroy such an army who knows raping its people whom it is supoosed to protect. Who knows bombing its people in Wana and Baluchistan and who doesn`t learn from its sins in east Pakistan.

These pakistanis think, west is against them without reasons. fools. It is not possible in dirty, sinful, destined to hell west that in such a case, offenders escape the punishment. In land of the pure, it is a daily routine.

MMA are silent. Their islam goes to hell when there is a need to talk against powerful offenders. Q league are political prostitutes. And PPP, why will they talk. It is not important to get the power. While Mullahs are good at protecting their sisters being raped in Kashmir, What happens to them when their sisters are raped on their own side of the border.

People Talk of Karo Kari. And yes, he is the father in law of Shazia. Such father in laws should be karo karied.

I really appreciate Shazia`s husband that he is still with her and facing the difficulty with her. Seems that education brings positive changes in attitudes.

Realy, there is no solution let to make the system work. Where there is no justice, I mean speedy justice, there is no hope of survival of the society.

I am sorry. I am realy frustrated and I don`t know what I am typing makes any sense or no.

#170 Aziz Narejo:

Does democracy has anything to do with fair and just rights for both sexes and to provide strong laws protecting the women, in particular ? I am not sure if it matters in the Pakistani System. If a judge can be kicked out overnight by a democratic government then I do not think that you should have much hope in a democratic system in Pakistan.

On second thoughts, the law may even penalize the crooks. But if the culture will kill that woman then there is a double issue. Well, you cannot paint the culture with a different stroke overnight. The husband of that woman may be fine, but what if a ``ghayoor`` male in the family decides to kill her considering her a stigma ? Of course, her life will not stay the same. There is no safety for her. She cannot have a male by her side 24x7 to protect her. This is where these islamic nations with ridiculous laws are becoming a menace for the rest of the world.

That`s why I was not only rebuking the legal system in Pakistan but sharing my angst over the prevalent cultural backwardness. Charlie wrote a very heartfelt post under Beena Sarwar`s article on those lines. Please take a look at it as well.

Ideally, if a strong action is taken on this case then that should set an example for all the men in the Islamic Republic to know their boundaries. I am not sure if that culture is cut out to make men know their boundaries. In my opinion, some of it is due to the religious teachings imparted to the locals telling them that men are superior to women. They can get away with many things. Of course, culture plays a significant role in this bad equation as well. I am not sure which culprit contributed first and which one followed.

#169 by ZahraJ
``Pakistan can never get rid of its gender related inequities.``
``...the Pakistani Nation will never be enlightened enough to take effective measures around the issue under discussion. A few articles here and there, a few letters to the current ambassador, a few hot-headed posts/speeches and that`s it.``

It is true. The situation is bleak. It may however come as a surprise to many that there are still some people who haven`t lost all the hope and are engaged in a struggle to have democracy, justice and fair play in the country.

Especially heartening are the events like the Baloch women`s rally in Sui, Balochistan the other day calling for justice in the rape case. It is said to be first of its kind in Balochistan. Then there are the examples of the struggle by the HRCP and the lawyers.

All may not have been lost - at least not yet. There must be some hope. I think the civilian society shouldn`t give up. It can`t afford to do that.

Please read the following quote. It gives us a little food for thought:

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

By Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

Aziz Narejo,

Pakistan can never get rid of its gender related inequities. The international communities will keep on slapping the local authorities and the locals will continue acting like the true hypocrite slaves they are. This episode will not be the last one of its kind. No measure will ever take place to introduce a definitive law taking care of this issue. You cannot have a law in a 3rd world muslim country to protect women!

These countries are and have been more concerned on catering to the needs of some horny men than providing basic rights to their women. They are so damn insecure. What a pathetic equation! Most of the bigoted and fluffy remarks on this board were to pacify some narrowminded muslim men and their distorted egos.

Sorry, Mr. Narejo, the Pakistani Nation will never be enlightened enough to take effective measures around the issue under discussion. A few articles here and there, a few letters to the current ambassador, a few hot-headed posts/speeches and that`s it. The true measure of effective change kicks in when you institute a law to take care of an issue and you enforce that.

An example of a true measure would be, Megan`s Law in the US. Unless something of that nature is not enforced in the Pakistani Social System, the locals will keep on reporting crimes and violation against women - FIRs will not be lodged and even if they were lodged they will keep on getting disappeared. Men will roam around scot-free looking for another ``condom-entertainment``. Oh, lest I forget... at the end of each accident, the violation will emphasize that it took place in the Islamic Republic.

With due respect, please avoid the following statements:

“Rape of a woman is rape of a mother, a sister, a daughter, ......rape of humanity.”

“No shame, no fear of God, this act must be condemned.”

The above will never ever prompt the slave mentality to enforce a law. These are outdated emotional items. In the current day and age, it should be equal rights for both men and women. If men like to have entertainment in its awkward form then women ought to be entitled to the same. If men mistreat women then women should be entitled to do the same. If there are laws to protect and hide the sins of men then there should be laws defending women as well. All this hudood shudood stuff should be shot and buried alive. Utter rubbihs! This is not a rosy picture. Is it? Do you think that Pakistan is ready to take that leap? I am not sure it will ever. My apologies for sharing the dark truth.

I wish you the best in your mission to bring justice to the victim. As I said earlier, life is too short to be violated by external elements. Every human being has to have the right to cherish and live a life that provides them with basic and equal rights, decent opportunities, security and bliss. Rest are additions in the grand scheme of things.

Regards.

Re: # 165
The biggest prostitution dens, brothels etc. in third-world countries, tend to pop-up around US bases in those countries. The ones in places like Phillipines are legendary. I have friends in the US military, who have told me some wild stories. I don`t know the exact history of Mangla, but someone told me when their was a Western presence there (were they living there?), the Jehlum and Kharian area started seeing a rise in prostitution etc........

Romair,
the colony that now is part of Mangla Cantt was constructed by the American company that built the Mangla Dam. As regards prostitution dens, do not be under the impression that they did not exist before the Americans came. Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world and this part of the world was no exception. I would suggest that you study the history of Mughal India and would come accross the some startling facts. Soon after capturing Delhi, Babar sent dancing girls to Kabul to entertain his wives. This was in 1526.

Irfan: In my opinion, you are under Romair Syndrome. In that condition, individuals should stay in solitary confinement than visit a discussion board. By the way, I was being sarcastic towards a situation or a point not towards a person. There is a difference and apparently you were unable to distinguish. I do not see any point to discuss this matter further with you since we are not on the same page and you are intentionally trying to divert the subject from its course. All these are indicators that you are under the diagnosed syndrome.

Dear Chowk Admin: Hi. I need to lodge a formal complaint. Since it relates to a certain interactor on this board therefore I have decided to document it here. I have asked an interactor repeatedly to avoid addressing me, but he has no regard for it. I have tried to ignore him but then he uses the strategy to misquote me intentionally to attract attention. Previously, he was playing with numbers and percentages for his own purposes and to influence the readership. Now, he is associating a wrong statement with my name. If I correct him then he will have full freedom to write his convoluted interacts addressed towards me. This is extremely annoying and the fact that he has no regard for another interactor`s point of view is even worse. I do not want to address or correct him; but I am ticked off that he is using clever tactics to solicit input on his post. Could you please tell the interactor to mend his ways? I will appreciate that. Regards.

yahyajamil #163: ``while you have a point regarding statistics, we cannot deny the fact that the West, especially USA have some good systems where crimes against women are concerned. We have to admit that not only Pakistan, but nearly all third world countries lag far behind in dealing with crimes against women.``

Yes, this is exactly what I have been arguing from my first post. We should copy those aspects of the Western system, which have proven to be a success in the West. One of which is the judicial system related to prosecution of crime. Another is the high literacy rate for women.

However, we should not start copying, willy-nilly, everything the West throws out. Especially in areas, where the West itself knows it has its hands full. This includes statistics on rape, specifically amongst college students...........

I am quite opposed to individuals who think one should just start apeing the West completely. And even more opposed to ideas that suggest that the solution for every problem is for the West to invade every third-world country.........The later just leads to more violence, more rapes etc......

The biggest prostitution dens, brothels etc. in third-world countries, tend to pop-up around US bases in those countries. The ones in places like Phillipines are legendary. I have friends in the US military, who have told me some wild stories. I don`t know the exact history of Mangla, but someone told me when their was a Western presence there (were they living there?), the Jehlum and Kharian area started seeing a rise in prostitution etc........

One cannot, thus, just ape everything. One should pick out the good and leave the bad. I would certainly not want my daughter to have a 25% chance of being raped, while in college. Nor end up pregnant outside marriage etc. (another big problem in the West). I would however like her to have quick access to justice and to higher education, as in the West..........

Re: # 155 (ZahraJ),

My post is long winded? :)

Let me clarify one thing, for me this is absolutely not a men vs women issue, obviously you`re a feminist and I think that`s cute. But, rather than taking a peremptory and dismissive attitude, try and argue a point rationally. If you think my long winded posts are a waste of your time, don`t read or reply to them. Also, why shouldn`t anyone be allowed to be sarcastic towards you? Are you not on a public discussion board? Have you not claimed that you were being sarcastic to other people? Why the double standards? And since I`m the one writing my posts, I`m the only one who can judge whether they are relevant or otherwise before posting them up for your judgment :)

I have no objection to human rights organizations pressuring the government for swift and firm action. They have been doing it and will keep on doing it. Fine by me. But when you talk about a kind of internation council that `oversees` it has connotations of ceding national authority to an outside agency. No sovereign nation (even one under a dictatorship) would or should do that. You say people are looking to foreign bodies for justice, I can make another sweeping statement saying there are many people in Pakistan who would find such foreign intervention unacceptable.

If the international community needs to pressure a nation, it should pressure the USA to submit its troops to the jurisdiction of the ICC. Or the international community should have intervened far quicker in Darfour, sorry for the shock tactic but read http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3426273.stm and then decide where effort should be focused.

Re: # 161
``On a sidenote, this discussion has unnecessarily been turned into a Pakistan is terrible, USA is great discussion, and hence the West should invade Pakistan, by ZahraJ. As I suggested earlier, rape is a worldwide phenomenon. And a phenomenon, which the USA has its hands full with, also. We should recognize that. And not ape everything the West does on every issue. We should only ape, those things which have been handled well in the West``

Romair,
while you have a point regarding statistics, we cannot deny the fact that the West, especially USA have some good systems where crimes against women are concerned. We have to admit that not only Pakistan, but nearly all third world countries lag far behind in dealing with crimes against women. As you say that `we should only ape, those things which have been handled well in the West`. Well crimes against women is something they certainly handle much better than us. We need to study their methods and adapt them to our socio-cultural environment. Maybe we can come up with something that is better than what we have now.

BBC reports that the DNA samples do not match any of the accused.
Here is also the highlights of the report given by PPL to the Parliament.

---

ISLAMABAD: A highly confidential internal classified report of the Pakistan Petroleum Limited (PPL) to be unfolded in a closed-door meeting today (Wednesday) could give a new twist to the rape of Dr Shazia.

The seven-page presentation to members of the National Assembly standing committee on Petroleum Ministry today, will highlight threats to the life of Dr Shazia after the rape. Sources said the word of threat has been used at least three times on different pages. The report says that it was because of these threats that she was immediately sent to Karachi and police guards posted outside her residence.

However, the secret report does not say that from which quarter the personal security of Dr Shazia was under threat after her rape. The PPL report available with The News also quotes a responsible authority as saying that 3-4 defence security guards were seen coming out of the lady doctor’s house.

The PPL has claimed that ‘law and order disturbance at Sui may not entirely be connected with Dr Shazia incident’. The PPL report contains details of the rape incident of January 2 that has triggered a violent reaction in Balochistan province. This view is shared by 17 MNAs of the National Assembly committee on Petroleum and Natural Resources, who are meeting here on Friday.

A comprehensive briefing will be given by the top management of PPL in a closed- door meeting. Petroleum Minister Amanullah Jadoon and secretary of the ministry have been asked to appear before the committee and answer questions put by the committee to be presided over by MNA Dr Noorjahan Panezai.

The PPL report defends the top management of PPL, earlier accused by police of concealing facts of the rape case and destroying the evidence from the spot.

Since eruption of the crisis in Balochistan, the PPL bosses for the first time have made an attempt to get their name clear and directly held the lady doctor responsible for delayed action against the culprits. The report has alleged that none other than Dr Shazia herself stopped the PPL administration from a prompt police action, as she continued to insist that she was robbed, not sexually assaulted.

The report has disclosed that the lady doctor herself stopped the PPL administration from getting a FIR registered against the alleged culprits as she wanted to wait for her husband who was out of the country at that time.

The Petroleum Ministry has also accused the national media of ‘blowing the issue out of proportion’ as it thought that the incident did not deserve such kind of converge at the national and international level.

According to the available copy of the classified report, the Pakistan Petroleum Limited has given details of the incident and made an attempt to replies charges levelled against its administration.

Giving details of the rape events, the official report said, the incident actually occurred on the night of January 2 and 3, when she was alone in her room. When people rushed to her place to help here , Dr Shazia said that she was only robbed of her belongings. She did not tell anyone at the spot that she was also raped by robbers.

However, the report said it was evident that Dr Shazia was traumatized and she wanted to proceed to Karachi to be with her family immediately. The report further says that Dr Shazia also desired that she did not want to lodge any FIR against anyone or lodge complaint with the local police. The PPL claimed that its staff immediately provided medication appropriate to her condition.

On January 3, SHO Sui visited the hospital and did not find her in a normal condition as she was unable to give any statement to the police. The next day, the SHO went to the residence of the lady doctor and inspected the room where the rape was reported. He also took certain evidences from the scene of the crime.

The PPL claimed that it fully facilitated the visit of SHO to the house of the lady doctor and extended full cooperation. However, the report said that on the night of January 4/5, the lady doctor was moved to Karachi and for consideration of her ‘personal security’ and treatment and enable her to be with the family.

On January 5, she was taken by her family to the residence. The PPL report said that in the judgement of the PPL management the ‘well being and security’ of lady doctor at that time was of foremost importance.

On January 7, the SHO was given the address of Dr Shazia in Karachi and assured of full cooperation. On January 7, the manager Sui wrote to police authorities and DCO Dera Bugti about the incident as learnt from Dr Shazia.

Earlier, on January 3, the district Nazim wrote to DAO with copies to senior officials alleging that PPL lady doctor was raped, asking him to investigate and take a stern action against the culprits.

The report has quoted the district Nazim as writing to authorities that 3 or 4 DSP were seem coming out of lady doctor house after allegedly raping her. The next day, a DSG officer was named as the prime accused and the PPL’s Sui office received a copy of this letter on January 5. On January 8, the management requested police authorities in Balochistan and Karachi to provide immediate security at Shazia’s residence as her security was in danger.

In her statement, Dr Shazia said, she was not in a position to give any statement, but added that she would get an FIR registered after consulting her husband, who was then out of country. On January 11 the government of Balochistan ordered a judicial enquiry. The PPL report has also lashed out at the media and police for claiming that its management was involved in hiding the case.

The report said that there was no truth in media reports and police statements alleging that PPL management had concealed evidence, and that it had not cooperated in the investigation. On the contrary, the report claimed that the above events show that the PPL management did not destroy any evidence, but on contrary provided all help to investigating officers.

---

Cheerios

Fuzair #158: ``US rape data, as reported by the FBI, is 32.1/100,000, or 93,433 in a population of 290,809,777. Not a great rate but not exactly the 72/100,000 of all women in the US who are raped as reported by your website.``

You might be misreading the data. The FBI data takes into account the whole population of the USA. This includes men and women, which places the total population at 290,000. We are obviously discussing the women being raped, as a % of women, from a population of women. Lets taket that to be 50% of the total population, i.e. 145,000.

The number of women being raped are around 91+% of the total. That would put it around 65% +/- per 100,000. About the same as I reported.

``In 2000, an estimated 62.7 of every 100,000 females in the country were victims of forcible rape. (Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). October 22, 2001. Crime in the United States, 2000.`` (http://www.arte-sana.com/articles/sexual_assault_fact_sheet.htm)

This seems pretty close to the 72/100000.

Following is a very detailed study with references, and studies carried out by the US Dept. of Justice, and various other organizations, on rape, i.e. it is not based on statistics by, ``whaked out feminists who consider all men to be rapists.`` Kindly check it out:

http://www.umbrellavt.org/documents/National%20statistics%20for%20sv.pdf

According to this study, only 16% of the rapes are ever reported to the police. 27.2% of all female college students have had sexual experiences which are defined as rape. I can provide you with quite a bit more studies, if you are interested.

``Of the women who were raped, only 25% described it as rape......Now, my guess is that if 75% of these rape ``victims`` say it was not rape, then it was not rape!``

You are misunderstanding this statement. This was a figure specifically designated to college students. Date rape is a common phenomenon. Over a four year college period, 25% students are date-raped. A figure between 20-25% is what I have seen on multiple occcassions.

College students (actually a lot of women who are raped) do not want to describe rape as rape. There are huge psychological stigmas attached with being raped and admitting you were raped. If you talk to a woman who was raped in Pakistan (or anywhere else), more than likely, they will not admit that they were raped. Specifically in situations where they were raped by an acquitance or relative.

Perhaps Shankar could jump in here and explain in more detail. He must have counseled some rape victims. Do they openly declared they were raped, or do they not openly admit it?

On the whole, what you are basically suggesting is that rape statistics presented by women`s organizations, in the USA, are BS. Because women`s organizations basically consist of, ``whacked out feminists.`` Primarily because they think, ``just about all heterosexual sex is rape and that all men are rapists.``

Hmmm. Do women organizations really consider all men to be rapists?

I am afraid I cannot agree with you. I don`t think all women`s organizations present BS. And none of them are suggesting that, ``all men are rapists.`` Your opinion about womens` organizations is basically a personal opinion of yours. You will have to quantify it in some manner, to be considered valid.

The statistics don`t support your suggestions...........

On a sidenote, this discussion has unnecessarily been turned into a Pakistan is terrible, USA is great discussion, and hence the West should invade Pakistan, by ZahraJ. As I suggested earlier, rape is a worldwide phenomenon. And a phenomenon, which the USA has its hands full with, also. We should recognize that. And not ape everything the West does on every issue. We should only ape, those things which have been handled well in the West...........

Re: # 159: Thank you, Fuzair!

Re: # 157: Thanks for proving a point that I have been bringing up. In case you did not sense it (and I do not think you did), I was being sarcastic in my previous post and wanted to highlight the hypocrisy in the social fabric of our Islamic Republic. I do not have issues with having good/ethical and bad/unethical existing under one umbrella. I do have issues when you let the bad set the direction for the good. That`s where a miracle needs to happen. It`s nothing to do with the religion. Pakistan has never been a country to follow any religious leaning in its true sense. Majority of the educated masses would opt for western concepts of freedom, opportunities and progress. And, the western concepts of freedom aren`t only limited to ``Sex in the City`` and ``The Desperate Housewives``. There is alot more to it.

The trouble arises when the 3rd world countries decide to follow the west in select ideologues and disregard the ones that are most crucial for the longevity and prosperity of their social fabric. That`s very sad and ironic.

Romair,

US rape data, as reported by the FBI, is 32.1/100,000, or 93,433 in a population of 290,809,777. Not a great rate but not exactly the 72/100,000 of all women in the US who are raped as reported by your website. So, the incidence is about 1/4th of what you claim. From 1994 to 2003, the rape incidence is down 18%. Maybe we do have something to learn from the US.

Here is the FBI site if you want to look at it yourself: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/03cius.htm Table 1.

RE: Romair #142

These rape statistics are among the made-up fake statistics put out by certain feminist groups that have a certain agenda to push. The best evidence of this is their own statistic on the page whose link you put up: ``Of the women who were raped, only 25% described it as rape.``

Now, my guess is that if 75% of these rape ``victims`` say it was not rape, then it was not rape! Its these same whacked out feminists who say that if a girl has sex, decides the next day it was a bad idea, this counts as rape! I am sure that there are many young female college students who really regret it the next day but, ipso facto, that doesn`t make it rape.

Basically, what these women are saying is that just about all heterosexual sex is rape and that all men are rapists. Frankly I am amazed that you put any credence in this extreme BS. These `statistics` are as fake and made up as the ``1 in 8`` BS put out about breast cancer incidence! At least get your data from a reliable source, e.g., FBI crime statistics, if you want to show how bad is the US.

#156 by ZahraJ
``Are you kidding here?``

No, I am not!
Obviously, you have lots of catching up to do on the kind of life the “darker sex” especially the privileged ones live in Pakistan. There are bad things about feudalism and then there are good things for some people. They don’t need jobs and the life is one long entertainment. Some useless young ones from the business families join them and there you have it. You don’t need clubs or discos for this kind of entertainment. It is different strokes for different folks.
As to the availability of the entertainment, every big and small city and even villages have this fun at a price and Sui is no exception.
it is hard to get numbers on this but there are about 10k to 15k entertainment workers in Karachi alone.
For comparison: Delhi has 70k entertainment workers.

Re: # 152

Are you kidding here? I see your point but it has some loop holes. The fellow has to be real pervert and evil. He was not on a date or in a club/bar in a cosmopolitan part of the world to be so well equipped. Then, I have never ever visited Baluchistan in my life and have read very little on the salient features except for the gas pipelines, dry fruit and certain kind of embroidery. There may be some exotic areas/islands in that part of the world for horny men. If it is true then do not you think that is an unfair privilege granted to the darker sex in a muslim land? You do not have to respond if you are uncomfortable to talk about it.

Irfan:

To summarize your long winded post: Each country should mind its own business. I am with you here, but I would have appreciated a less wishy-washy input .

My ``valid`` point is that a visible action is only taken when the international communities/human rights` groups start pressurizing the Pakistani Authorities.

- Have you ever wondered that why do the international communities/human rights` groups take that step?

- Is it because they know that the prevalent legal system in Pakistan is manipulated by the ruling powers (be it armed forces or industrial lords)?

- Is it because they know that the internal institutions are the victims themselves?

Now, you may say that who the hell are the external elements to advise and suggest. Very valid point! But when your people start looking up to the external elements to intervene then that says a lot. You better change your defensive rationale at that time. With due respect, do not give me any foolish argument to pacify. Some of you are really good at that to shift the focus - I am not sure if it’s to do with ideological insecurity or fear of acquiring fair western practices.

We do not believe in reincarnation in its true sense. So, the little life you have in this world needs to be respected and taken care of in a fair and just manner. And, no one should have to beg to the international communities to assist them in getting justice. That’s simply unacceptable and disrespectful to the basic civil rights of a human being.

Here’s where I feel that an international council can contribute to the well being of the distressed. By not having something of that significant nature, we are saying that some good people were destined to go through horrible things in life and that’s there fate. No ``significant`` action needs to be taken to avoid another incident of that nature. (And I understand that is not the group consensus on this board.)

My forefathers have been in the legal profession. And, while growing up, I have heard and seen of many of these cases go on and on for ages. I feel like giving some specific examples, but since they are not directly related to the ``subject`` under discussion therefore I want to avoid digression.

In an Islamic Republic, a man (regardless of his status and affiliation) who commits a crime of this nature should be taken to task. Since the ``Islamic Republics`` have little to do with Islam and more to do with ``un-Islamic`` practices therefore they should take their Islamic uniforms off and acquire the fair practices of the western world. If that hurts the finer senses of the close-minded bigots then let it happen. The said kind does not want the Pakistani Muslims to live in the present with fair and just rights. They want to take them 1000 years back.

Irony is that even if justice is granted to the victims, their lives will not be safe in Pakistan. A case of this nature will create a lot of ripples and a bad rap. In the end, the victims will take asylum in a western country and not in Saudi Arabia or Iran or Malaysia. Do not you see the damn irony of the! @#%%^ System! It amazes me when you guys write retarded logic(s) to cover up than facing what’s right in your face.

Please do not waste your time as well as others by writing a long-winded post with little or no relation to the issue under discussion. Also, please avoid sarcasm in your post towards me. If I consider a logic and rationale retarded, I would point that out. I do not express my views to pacify any male`s ego. Clear?

Thank You!

apologies for the cut n paste in advance: and this may make it in beena`s column on chowk later:

PERSONAL POLITICAL

The ultimate violation

By Beena Sarwar

``What happened to Shazia should not happen to anybody. And those who want to suppress the case, hid the reality, protect the sinners who committed this act, have they ever thought that this could happen in their own house too, to their own daughter or wife... What will they do then?

``My brother, who is the eldest son, the support of our old father, today when he talks to me, he starts crying. And I can do nothing, I cannot even dry my dear brother`s tears. Today my heart is weeping tears of blood along with his tears. Dr Shazia was the honour of our family, and Inshallah, always will be. She is the daughter of our household, our daughter-in-law. In our eyes, she is as pure and unsullied as she has ever been. Her honour has not reduced, nor will it ever be. But who knows why this educated society with its educated people armed with big degrees talk like illiterates, talk of Karo Kari. I ask them who has given them the right to pronounce such a sentence on an innocent, responsible doctor, that she should be killed, that she has no right to live. Under what law do they make these statement, where is the Ayat in the Quran that decrees punishment on the downtrodden?

``...Dr Shazia`s condition is deteriorating by the day. She can`t sleep at night. My brother sits up all night by her side with a light on, she is afraid of the dark, she screams. What she has gone through, it is very painful, the horror will always stay with her deep in her heart. She can`t face anyone, she is unable to meet anyone. A talented and responsible girl, a professional doctor, a saviour of human beings, is today fighting for her own life. She just wants to live with the same respect she had...``

This is a partial translation of the long, heartbreaking email that Dr Shazia`s sister-in-law Sameera Shah wrote from Canada to the Anaa News list, in Roman Urdu, posted out on January 31. Anaa is the American Asian Network Against Abuse of Women, set up by some concerned ex-pat Pakistani doctors based in the USA. They run an active email list focusing on violence against women, http://4anaa.org/, which has taken up the Sui rape case with great enthusiasm, including a signature campaign that they hope to pressurise the government into action with. They also initially offered to try and get Dr Shazia and her husband over to the USA, but appear to have realised that such a move is beyond their scope. Now a Canadian organisation of Pakistani-origin professionals has reportedly made such arrangements.

The Sui rape is probably Pakistan`s most high profile such case since the prominent politician Sardar Shaukat Hayat went public with the rape of his daughter Veena Hyat over a decade ago. Then too, there was a lot of public outrage, demonstrations, petitions and what not. In the end, those arrested were released for `lack of evidence`, and Veena Hayat eventually moved abroad. It is not just women who are raped who find no hope in this society. Those who marry without their family`s permission also often find themselves unable to live here, particularly if their case hits the headlines -- Shaista Almani, and earlier, Riffat Afridi and Saima Waheed Ropri, have all had to leave the country with their husbands, for fear of being killed if they remained in Pakistan.

Obviously, sending threatened women away is no solution to the problem, but it has become a form of political asylum. The main reason for this, and for the increase in violence against women, as has been pointed out again and again, is the lack of rule of law, the fact that culprits are never arrested, tried and punished. The lack, eventually, of accountability. And without accountability, we cannot build a just, democratic society, in which the citizens feel safe and secure.

It is all very well and good that the government is engaged in the image building of Pakistan. We all agree that this country is misrepresented in the West and even in the East, and that there`s a lot more to life in the Land of the Pure than violent fanatics who would like to criminalise every little joy in life (much like the Saudis who banned red roses on Valentine`s Day). But unless we Pakistanis feel safe and secure in our own land, why would foreign investors be willing to risk life and limb in this potentially promising investment climate. It`s only a few crazies more attuned to journalism and/or social development than investments and finance, like the Brits George Fulton and Chris Cork, or Germans Claus Euler and Hans Bremer (all married, incidentally, to Pakistani women), or the UK-based American Ethan Casey who will take the risk of living here for any extended period (There are a few brave women too).

Pakistan is probably one of the few countries where violence against women is actually on the rise. According to official figures cited in the HRCP Report 2004, an average of a thousand women die in Pakistan every year as a result of `honour` killings. Add to this the thousands who suffer domestic violence, or are burnt with acid or kerosene, and the picture that emerges is one of extreme hatred of women (misogyny), violence, and deep-rooted concepts about women being the property of men, to do with as they will.

Think of the pain of young Aasiya in Karachi, just 16, raped by her employer`s son and then burnt when she resisted -- doctors were amazed that she survived as long as she did, for two weeks, with 90 percent burns. The police refused to even register an FIR, until the intervention of rights organisations. In another recent case, Ghazala, a young graduate working in the advertising section of a local newspaper, was taken to Islamabad and raped by the owner-editor who photographed her nude in order to blackmail her into silence... but Ghazala isn`t keeping silent, just as Aasiya refused to. Her family is standing by her (her father is a retired Steel Mills worker, and her mother a principal at a school in Karachi`s Lines area); they have registered an FIR. Dr Shazia isn`t keeping silent either.

The State must support such struggles for women for justice with more than just words or (inadequate) bills on `honour killing`. For Aasiya and others like her, it is too late. But there are hundreds if not thousands of other such cases screaming for justice, accountability, and the rule of law. Until the government takes steps to ensure these basics, all attempts at improving Pakistan`s image abroad will remain a superficial veneer.

ZahraJ,

Going out on a limb here that you`ll deign to interact with me on a topic or two. In this case there is no legal cause for international institutions to jump in and impose themselves on those of a sovereign nation; those mechanisms (which themselves are often ineffectual) are in place to react and respond to war crimes such as genocide. Or are you supporting an illegal action to punish another? Another way international institutions can intervene is if another country declares war on Pakistan because the rapists are not being punished (the lack of justice and basic human rights was one of the ostensible reasons for the current Iraq war). A final way would be for the international community to impose economic/trade sanctions on Pakistan, although these will not affect the upper and middle class fatally, but the economic deprivation will trickle down enough to the lower classes to indirectly cause death and undue suffering (Iraq during the interregnum between the two Gulf wars is again the example, we`ve all heard of Iraqi children dying due to lack of medicines).

Taking a page out of the alleged retard`s (Romair`s) logic, I`m sure that Americans are not really perfect (inspite of popular perception). I`m willing to bet quite a few vital organs that there are many cases where innocent people are languishing in jails, and many criminals are getting off (proverbially) scot free. Yet amazingly, I`ve never heard of Americans clamoring for their cases to be referred to Swedish courts, or demanding that German institutions come in and set theirs` right.

#150 by ZahraJ, tshah and Jamil,

It is not uncommon for people to carry condoms in their wallet or have condoms in their possession. It is a common practice in the US. I had known many men in Pakistan even in the early 80s and the late 70s who carried condoms with them for various reasons. Some were married and some were sexually active and careful.

Carrying condoms does not prove that some one is a serial rapist or this act was premeditated. I would not pay too much attention to that.

Re: # 147
``For starters, people should not refer to rape statistics as retarted logic. They should try to study them. Secondly, the aim should be to empower women and give them access to justice. And thirdly, the aim should be to put some sort of control on relations based on overly sexual desires of males and females``

Romair,
Your first two points are valid and especially the second one needs to be implemented rather than just be highlighted in seminars etc. Your last point however is something that is practically not possible. Maybe if we seriously implement the second point some sort of control may emerge.

#149

Good Point! I was also taken aback to read somewhere on Chowk that the armyman/rapist was carrying a condom. This sounded more like a planned episode and the man in this picture, seemed like a serial rapist vs. a first time offender. Regardless of that, I think he ought to be penalized for the gross misconduct. It`s not a joke to be in the army and lack basic ethics. Probably, the academies/schools training these macho jawans need a complete overhaul of their curriculum - less focus on carrying condoms in the backpocket for evil purposes and more on basic ethics.

Re: # 130

I am certainly serious but I don`t consider myself in a posion to fix responsibility for the crime. For your information the cocerned Jirga has already declared Dr Shazia, the victim, a `Kari`, punishable by death. The most shamefull crime in this case is the cover up. The use of condoms by rapists is however very intriguing. May be this was the victim`s condition.
You cannot know the truth in this Pakland as truth is like a `La houl`` for it.

Romair:
(Irritating & Retarded Logic!)
I simply do not wish to discuss any issue with you. I think you are experiencing some difficulties in comprehending that. Before you start crying like a spoilt baby, I suggest that you change the direction of your post to another interactor.

Thank You!

ZahraJ #142: ``Completely retarded logic! But then that`s the hallmark of your defensive versions``

As I have pointed out many times before, kindly argue the point. You have a tendency to make a whole group of statements, and then when someone provides a counterpoint, you start name calling........

I have provided you statistics from US women`s organizations, about rape in the USA. If you think that is retarded, then I can only feel sorry for you. Rape statistics should not be taken as retarded logic. In fact, they are not logic, they are statistics. Hard cold facts.....

The solution to every problem is not to have the West, ``enter Pakistan to save the muslims from their fellow evil brethren.`` That solution results in nothing more than killings of innocents (not to mention more rape, itself: do read the statistics on Vietnam). Apeing the West for some things is good, but not for everything. I certainly don`t want a college environment in Pakistan, where my daughter would have 25% chance of being raped, at sometime during her stay there........

Rape is neither a Western nor an Eastern phenomenon. That is the point I am trying to make. In fact, if you study some sociology, you may realize that rape is not even a crime of sex. It is actually a crime of power. Men rape women for power, not for sex.........And statistically speaking, they do it quite a bit everywhere.......

What is the solution?

For starters, people should not refer to rape statistics as retarted logic. They should try to study them. Secondly, the aim should be to empower women and give them access to justice. And thirdly, the aim should be to put some sort of control on relations based on overly sexual desires of males and females.

You need to do the first. Pakistan needs to do the second. The USA needs to do the third. Neither has been able to control rape............At least according to the statistics presented by American women`s associations (you can refuse to accept them, if you want, however)............

RE: How should the concern be actually shown? Any suggestions or recommendations?


1. I believe accepting there is a problem and realizing the magnitude of the problem is the first step.

2. Creating agencies that work with rape victims providing them with medical, emotional and psychological help.

3. When a woman is raped she should undergo a complete medical evaluation ( a rape kit )as done in the US.

4. Bringing the perpetrator face to face with the victim and the victim given a formal apology .

5. Paying restitution to the victim. The perpetrator should be made to paid monetary restitution to the victim and one half of his earnings shall be given to the victim for the rest of his life.

6. The culprit should be made to work community service and accept his crime in group discussions and talk about his motives and how if any he is changed.

7. Integrating the rape victim bak into the society and assuring her that rape was not her fault and she is not any less respectable than she was before she was raped.

8. Creating public awareness about rape and talking openly about the reasons, motives and actions of the perpetrator.

9. Accepting that rape is never the victims’s fault and imposing strict , harsh punishments on rapists so it instills fear.

There can be a lot more that can be done but this is the least we can do . Fear of harsh punishment and resentment of public towards rapists will to some degree deter the criminals. The criminal justice system needs to step up , punish the criminals and no one should be above the law.

Maybe some of you will say dream on but I will dream on as dreams do someday lead to reality. If we can create Pakistan from a dream then we sure can work to save that Pakistan with another dream.

HOPE!!!!!!

Ijaz:

learned from geo the report has been submitted to the government...this article will follow its descend as others appear on main page...but when the report comes out post your views on another thread or in your ilog...

rgds

t

Re: # 136
zahraJ,
You asked for some way to show concern. I really do not think that there is any way. The closest to showing concern is an institutional remedy that ensures swift justice. Maybe HP has a point that we need to follow the west in such cases. What is needed is a system that provides the victim necessary professional help to overcome the trauma. What can show concern is a change in our attitudes (especially males) towards victims of rape. What is needed is an acceptance by society that victims of rape should not be pitied but treated with kindness and gentleness that surpassas similar sentiments expressed on bereavement. Perhaps all these put togrther may create a semblance of concern. I personally do not think that any human act can be more depraved than that of rape. As more and more women go out of their homes, whether to study or in pursuit of livlihood, we have to bring about institutional changes to protect them. Sadly we only pay lip service to this aspect. The world is by and large male dominated and will probably remain so for a long time, at least in our part. We have to take institutional measures to balance the gender in-equalities.

Re: # 142

Completely retarded logic! But then that`s the hallmark of your defensive versions.

ZahraJ #139: ``The victims will have to look up to the western nations and institutions for justice. That day is not very far when western nations/institutions will enter Pakistan to save the muslims from their fellow evil brethren.``

Every two minutes, a women is raped in the USA. And 25% of all US female college students have been raped. Nearly half of those raped were by romantic acquintences. 44% of the women who have been raped, in the USA, have considered suicide.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/rapecrisis/a/rapestats.htm

One should not get carried away in bringing in the West for everything. Rape is a huge problem in the USA. Not to mention the fact that the USA, itself, does not recognize International Criminal Courts, since its citizens could be charged of rape in foreign places, like Iraq etc.

I am friends with quite a few US female college students, from my college days. In addition, my wife went to US colleges and actually stayed with a group of girls there. Some of whom are regular visitors to our house. The situation of the average US college educated girl, on the sex and marraige side is not very good. I really don`t think it is better than the situation of the average Pakistan college educated girl, who (lets say) is on Chowk. Both are equally empowered. Yet the stories I have heard of how the ladies here have been used and abused (yes abused) by men are far more abusive than what I have heard about educated and empowered women in Pakistan.

The problem is that in Pakistan, very few women have access to college etc.

There really is no solution to rape. Other than swift prosecution of it. And empowerment of women. Although women in USA are very empowered. Yet 25% of them are raped in college. I doubt empowered Pakistani women (those in college) are raped at such a high percentages...........

Re: # 140

HP:

Point well noted.

Thanks.

#136 by ZahraJ
“How should the concern be actually shown? Any suggestions or recommendations?”

Zahra,

Honestly, I don’t know! And I am not going to get into a debate w/you on this issue either. I have some idea about what your thoughts are and I respect them though I don’t entirely agree with them.
The US media has a uniform policy in publicizing the rape cases and that policy is based on respecting the victims rights and identity more than any thing else. That I think is a civilized approach. Can this policy be ported to Pakistan? I think it can be.

This particular case never even made it to the fine prints until Sardar Bugti so crassly decided to use it for his benefit ten days after the deed. Since then it has not left the headlines and the poor woman who was humiliated once, is now being humiliated everyday in public.

Aziz Narejo,

Thank you for posting an objective article raising the concern amongst the international community to kick the current regime`s manipulated law and order system alongwith the ones who need to be kicked in their right places. That`s why an International Council (I had earlier proposed) is necessary to jump in, when the affected citizens of a country do not know where to go and whom to consult. If the government led by the armed forces is not allowing a legal action to kick in to avoid a civilian uproar then that is wrong and should be unacceptable.

Still, I disagree with the stance that the institution is the real culprit. The culprit is the person who committed the crime and the masses who are dead to engage in such an activity. It`s not army, it`s not police and it`s not the judiciary. Sadly enough, there was a time when certain institutions held a lot of respect and the people associated with those institutions were highly well regarded. To my knowledge that included both civil services and the legal/judicial system.

I hope that the culprits are hanged or stoned. After all it is the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. If the government cannot resolve the basic day to day matters of their people in a fair islamic way then they should get rid of the baggage they have been carrying for the past 50 plus years. Just name the country as ``Pakistan``.

The woman should be the one to stone the culprits to death if the real shariat is followed. This is when the orthodox clergy should be on the streets to demand fair trial - if they are sincere. By the way, this is also the right time to involve the muslim ummah. Probably, getting some tips from the Saudis in bringing the culprits to their final destination may help.

Sarcasm aside, none of the muslim countries will show their spines at this time. The victims will have to look up to the western nations and institutions for justice. That day is not very far when western nations/institutions will enter Pakistan to save the muslims from their fellow evil brethren.

Zaharaj,
Nice to see you around.

From whatever information that I have gathered and put in my various interacts, it appears that none of us are into the facts of the matter.

I think that the best way to show concern is not to speculate. Lets wait for the forensic evidence and the facts to come out.

CHOWK STAFF
I would request the chowk staff to keep this story on the front page till such time the final investigation is made public. There has been too much mud slinging about the army and people of Pakistan, in which YayaJamil and myself have taken the opposite stand. So I would be interested to see who have to take their words back and Whatever.

Cheerios

Re: # 135

Temporal jee,
thank you for your appreciation.

HP:

[I doubt that they actually have any concern for the poor girl who went thru whatever happened there helplessly. ]

How should the concern be actually shown? Any suggestions or recommendations?

sajal:

good post!

This is phenomenal,

I read this today in the vagina monologues,

`` Night after night I heard the same stories- women being raped as teenagers, in college, as little girls, as elderly women;women who had finally eacaped being beaten to death by their husbands;women who were terrified toleave; women who were taken sexually, before they were even conscious of sex, by their step fathers, brothers, uncles, mothers and fathers. I began to feel insane, as if a door had been opened to some underworld and I was being told things I was not supposed to know; knowing these things was dangerous.
Slowly, it dawned on me that nothing was more important than stopping violence against women-that the desecration of women indicated the failure of human beings to honor and protect life and that this failing would, if we did not correct it , be the end of us all. I do not think I am being extreme. When you rape, beat , mutilate, burn, bury and terrorize women, you destroy the essential life energy on the planet. You force what is meant to be open, trusting, nurturing, creative and alive to be bent , infertile and broken``.

These words blew me away!!!!!!

Re: # 124
(yahyajamil
You are a well read and a sharp person. This is an anonymous forum and nobody expect any body to post lot of information about them. I like your posts and am kind of surprised that despite the army background, you clearly show a solid knowledge of the ground situation in Pakistan. Cheer up and like I said to Irfan, Relax!)

HP,
thanks for the gracious remarks. I am relaxed. Just do not like being called a liar, especially when I have made my credentials clear on this`anonymous` forum. Perhaps it has to do with my military experience where I have always dealt up front without hiding anything.
Your article on Balochistan is superb.

Re: # 124
(yahyajamil
You are a well read and a sharp person. This is an anonymous forum and nobody expect any body to post lot of information about them. I like your posts and am kind of surprised that despite the army background, you clearly show a solid knowledge of the ground situation in Pakistan. Cheer up and like I said to Irfan, Relax!)

HP,
thanks for the gracious remarks. I am relaxed. Just do not like being called a liar, especially when I have made my credentials clear on this`anonymous` forum. Perhaps it has to do with my military experience where I have always dealt up front without hiding anything.
Your article is superb.

irfan: thanks for clarifying that you were in fact responding to specific things written by urstruly, teshah rather than in the broader context of this article.

On the question of self-respecting = ghairatmand = honorable, this is I think a very relevent issue in the context of this article. And central to the issues we face as a nation. That is, the issue is one of national character. And (as Napoleon said), character is destiny - for the individual and for nations. Thus, as I mentioned below, character is emphasized from kindergarten on in british and US schools - and it is no surprise that these nations provide leadership to the world. The feudal concept of ghairat (which IS really conceit and oppression, as HP correctly said earlier) has confused the issue.

But the feudal concept of ghairat is not how it used in the urdu press and pakistani leaders (as I mentioned earlier). That is the only point I wished to make clear in my posts on this issue.

teshah #82 you write ``a sexy woman would naturally welcome it unless inhibited my extreme social taboos.``

So, it is the fault of the woman that she was raped. Would you be good enough to please confirm that you are being serious.

Romair #125 : I have never made a secret of the questions you ask, and am very proud of my family`s military background and of the contributions my late father and other relations have made when they served in the military.

Before I start typing up my late father`s resume per your request, could you advise me first exactly how this would ``get a better idea of ``where (I am) coming from `` and on what issue this would give you a better idea?

Re: # 124

Thank you dear. You are real HP, not raping any body,s sister or mother but only playng with your own life.
In fact rape is committed by a person when his sexual urge goes out of control and a sexy woman would naturally welcome it unless inhibited my extreme social taboos. I remember a statement of an ex-IG Police, Punjab, who had said,``How can the police check rapes when 90% women wished to be raped``. This so called `Ghairat` in the present Muslim society is causing extreme sex-starvation leading to an out break of sex crimes. What is actually reported to the police, etc., is only a tip of the iceberg. Original tribal Islam was very liberal in this respect. They had the non-muslim women for rape as loundies but now...

HP,

Didn`t realize when I read your original remark that it was a teaser, seemed to be smack dab in the middle of a serious conversation.

If I want to taste a good scotch I`ll just cross the channel and get some in the UK :)

There`s not too many desis where I`m at but I go to the UK often enough and I was growing tired of a A level dropout, cell-phone salesmen British-born desis patronizingly explaning to me how Pakistan should be improved (when their entire exposure to Pakistani society is that summer they spent at Khala jee`s house). Obviously there are more perceptive people with much more substantive contributions to make.

The ghairat issue is an example of yet another *ism. We have nationalism being factored out and parcelled to smaller and smaller groups. At one time it was Punjabi vs Pathan, Sindhi vs Balochi (and all permutations of that). But now we have Potohari vs Seraiki, Bugti vs Marri and so on. Once you descend one level there`s always another low, always another racial/tribal/linguistic distinction to be made. It sucks but that`s the way it is.

Irfan.

PS: I`m pretty relaxed, just don`t like being told I`m condoning rape and defending a rapist.

#123 by irfanhamid

This author is trying to place whole Sindh’s ghairat on this issue. His contention is that ALL Sindhi would die of Ghairat, because a sindhi Nihani(girl) was raped in Balochistan. He is not thinking of the moral and criminal side of the whole thing.

That’s why I was harping on this Ghairat thing so much. This author and many more in Pakistan are using Ghairat for political mileage. I doubt that they actually have any concern for the poor girl who went thru whatever happened there helplessly.

tahmad #various: Just to get a better idea of where you are coming from and your exposure to the Army, could I ask you whether your father was in the Army? I think you had mentioned that he was.

Also, was a career officer, i.e. did he spend his whole career in the Army? Was it his main career? What rank did he rise to?

And did you thus end up growing up in cantonments, if your father was in the Army?

#117 by irfanhamid

Aap tu bahut Jazbati ho gaya. I can understand it.
What I wrote was a little teaser all you had to was to respond in some other tease. Obviously, that was beyond you because you are still worried about who lives in Pakistan and who does not.
Tahmed has very succinctly replied to your post, so I am not going to go into that. But, I suggest you lighten up and if possible try and get some quality scotch in Pakistan from somewhere and drink that every day. I hope that will help you drop your Jazbatait somewhat.
Relax!
Btw, I was the last honorable man in Pakistan and I am in the US now. What are you gonna say now :-)
Mr. T is going to get on my case now ^_^


yahyajamil
You are a well read and a sharp person. This is an anonymous forum and nobody expect any body to post lot of information about them. I like your posts and am kind of surprised that despite the army background, you clearly show a solid knowledge of the ground situation in Pakistan. Cheer up and like I said to Irfan, Relax!

tahmed32,

Help me out here. Where did I defend the rapist? It goes without saying that if he is guilty of rape then he should be awarded the punishment due. Nowhere have I said that rape is not a crime or should not be punished.

The author says ``The International Criminal Court (ICC) Statute, commonly referred as the Rome Statute, unequivocally declares rape as a crime against humanity under its Article 7, paragraph 2(f)``. But he is quoting it out of context (and quoting wrong paragraphs also by the way). The URL I gave in my last post (http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm#2) states (it is the text of the ICC Rome Statute):

``For the purpose of this Statute, ``crime against humanity`` means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:`` and the list below it includes rape. But this only becomes a crime against humanity if it meets the criteria set out in the preamble (widespread, systematic etc.)

#12 (Urstruly) states that the family should be provided sanctuary in a neutral foreign country, all evidence should be exported and a criminal investigation be carried out by experts of that country. #78 (Teshah) repeats that ``rape is a crime against humanity``. It was to these people that my post was addressed.

As for the ghairat issue, I didn`t claim that Pakistani men did or did not have it, nor that there exists or does not exist such a thing. All I said is that I found the discussion of ghairatmand vs honorable and the nuances drawn between the meanings pointless and didn`t want to comment on it. I only referred to it because it pertained to what HP said about honorable people leaving Pakistan. I didn`t allude to you in my post anywhere.

Finally about expatriates, what did I really say? I said it amazes me a lot to listen to what they have to say. I never said they don`t have a right to say what they want, who am I to impose restrictions on what can and can`t be said? EVERYBODY has a right to say what they want, even me by the way.

Irfan.

Sometimes the Pakistani`s living abroad contribute more to the Pakistani society than the ones actually living in Pakistan.

irfanhamid #120 one more thing: as for the statement about all ghairat mand people leaving for the west, that was HP`s statement - I know HP wont mind standing behind what he said, or retracting it upon further thought (as I think he should, since that statement obviously makes no sense and is not characteristic of HP`s generally well-reasoned posts).

and btw, all countries (chinese, indians, african nations, italians, irish, koreans and so on) consider their expatriate nationals to be a valued resource in a number of ways - including in terms of serving as the nation`s window to ideas and skills in the more developed world. So please dont apply that argument that third world elites once used to keep out ideas of democracies and rule of law and human rights. This argument was used in the 1950`s and 60`s to maintain dictatorships in the face of criticism by foreigners - and time has proven these arguments to be hollow. Your application of the same argument against fellow pakistanis living abroad is just as empty.

irfanhamid: You are merely attempting to defend the rapist with your arguments. Yes, my friend, there is such a thing as ``ghairat``. Granted it is missing among many Pakistani men, but that does not mean that there is no such thing.

And your legalistic arguments are, with all due respect, absurd.

First, ``crime against humanity`` is a term used to determine if something is subject to criminal prosecution by an international court. But no one is saying that this should be tried by an international court - only that a full and prompt investigation should be undertaken and the suspects apprehended and punished to the full extent of the law. Do you have a problem with that.

Second, you try to make it appear that expatriate Pakistanis do not have a right to speak up about evils in Pakistan. With all due respect, but it IS the business AND the moral duty of Pakistanis everywhere to speak up. So dont try to draw these arbitrary restrictions on who has a right to speak up.

yahya sahib,

i did not read your profile. so i wasnt making insinuations with that question mark, merely expressing the fact that i could be wrong in assuming you were retired. i come to chowk because i am interested in what people have to say, not in who they are. of course our views are shaped, and our knowledge is based, on our real life backgrounds. it is only to that extent that i care about a person`s background on chowk. In fact, the thing I like about chowk discussions is that it does not matter whether you are young or old, and regardless of your station in life - we are all no more and no less than what we write.

I hope this clarifies by view on this and lifts any concerns you may have.

Re: # 110

``As an (ex?) army officer``
tahmed sahib,

Although I am proud of my 26 1/2 years of service in the Army your insinuation that I am serving is in bad taste. I have posted my name and place where I am residing in the profile on chowk and also what I am doing now for living. This is more than what you and many others have indicated about themselves. Perhaps you think that like you, I am trying to hide who I am? I have nothing to hide.Since your origins are presumably Pakistani why don`t you have me checked out. I can give my address should you require it.

Everyone seems to be in an emotional upheaval about this issue, which is understandable. But people, please, get your facts straight. The rape of a woman is NOT a crime against humanity. Merriam-Webster`s Dictionary of Law 1996:

``crime against hu·man·i·ty: An inhumane act (as enslavement) committed against civilians before or during a war for which criminal liability is imposed by a domestic or international tribunal see also war crime``

http://www.answers.com/topic/crime-against-humanity

The International Criminal Court established in 2003 defines it in a similar vein:

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm#2

I won`t get into the honorable vs ghairatmand discussion because it seems pointless. But someone in the middle said that all self-respecting, honorable people have left Pakistan for the west. I would just like to ask you a few questions:

1. Have all, or even a majority of people, who immigrated done so for abstract notions of freedom, liberty etc. or for more palpable reasons such as financial opportunities, educational opportunities or a better quality of life?

2. If all good people have immigrated, does it mean that everyone left in Pakistan is a scumbag? If so, when did all the good people leave? Another angle of the problem: what if someone leaves Pakistan now? Is (s)he an immigrating scumbag or does he immediately become expiated of all that is bad while passing through customs at JFK/Heathrow etc.?

3. Seeing the fact that almost all who leave Pakistan are either the educated/monied elite (going to the US, to some extent to the UK), or labor-class people going to the ME, does it mean that the rest of the people in Pakistan, specially the poor who cannot afford to immigrate, are by definition dishonorable scum?

It amazes me a lot how people who manage to escape to the west suddenly become experts in Pakistani internal affairs and societal ills (and ways to fix them) and begin offering deep, knowledgable insights to those who still live there.

Irfan

Re: # 110
`` As an (ex?) army officer, you should be most strongly calling for proper investigation. ``

tahmed sahib,

In all my posts where have I said that the matter be hushed up? In fact if you read my earlier posts, I have said that let the investigation conclude and then make judgements. I agree with you that the Army leadership should have taken measures to heal the lady`s wounds.

Ijaz:

what do you take me for sir?...heheh no dice!...however, if you are on a trip around these parts it would be a pleasure to host you in TO...

my initial comments were based on this case...and yes...we should wait...BUT...then i went on my usual digressions:)...the canvas there was bigger...and not confined to this case

briefly #105:...yes there is some injustice and inequality and disparity in all societies...but don`t you think it would be gross travesty to compare where it happens least with where it happens most?

People at large still believe in fairplay, honour and justice.

there is no disagreement with above...in fact...my experience is this can be applied to masses in almost every land...my beef is confined to the occupying army and its cancerous fallout over the society

rgds

t

Re# 17

``There is only action that the Army, traditionally, protects its junior officers in, in relation to non-military organizations. And that is when junior officers go and beat up policewallahs. This tends to happen, now and then, because Army Captains and police officers, and specially sepoys, tend to go at it, once in a while. And, as per tradition, everyone from the Colonel to the General, supports his soldiers in such fights.......Interestingly most civilians in the jurisdiction of the police thana, also support the soldiers...........``

This so called support of the awam for the soldiers for beating the police wallas has changed dramatically and was evident when the beating of constable Nazir Dogar occurred. So much was the army critisied that our own mighty enlightened General had to say that he had himself did the investigation and had found the Maj. General involved in the incident to be innocent. If there is any doubt on this, let the army try to beat-up a policeman again, and then see what the reaction of the common man is.

By the way, even when the beating of police wallas by some Army lieutenants happend in Lahore a few years back, the incident was not looked upon favorably by the common man.

I guess people will take beating from an army that at least defeats its foes in the battle field. Who wants to love an army that gets a thrashing when it really matters and then comes back and slaps the civilians!

Breaking News!!
I learnt from some friends that hammad was recently married and soon after shifted with his family to Sui.It was his 4th day in the town when the incident took place.

Tahmed,
I have bet with Temporal that an entirely different story will surface.

Layman,
I do not contradict myself. I know hat I say. The fact that you disagree with me does not justify you making opinions. If you do, the burden is on you.

Cheerios

There were some comments earlier about the need for the Army to cover-up the case. The question is if Maj. Arshad Jamil could be hanged for killing 9 Sindhi peasants in 1992, then why would the Army try to cover a gang rape by a Captain in 2005?

Well, a lot of water has flown under the bridge since 1992.

A major difference between the time when Maj. Arshad Jamil committed the crime and today is that in 1992 the Army had been in the background for a few years and its image had not taken the type of battering that it has taken since 1999. The Army can potentially try to hide an act like rape perpetrated by its Captain (an individual act) in 2005 because the whole institution`s already weakened image can suffer even more due to the individual act of one of its wardi-wallas. This image has already taken quite a strong hit in the past few years, and the Generals don`t want it to suffer anymore.

Gone are the days of ``Fauj aur awam aik``. If anyone has any doubts, try talking to common folks, taxi drivers, shopkeepers in Pakistan today, and see how their views have changed in the past few years.

In 1992, when Maj. Arshad Jamil was proven guilty, people said: See, how good & honest our army is- in dispensing justice- even if it involves its own people.

In 2005, if the accused Captain is proven guilty of rape, people will say: See, this army lives off our blood, our sweat, and now these bullies have started raping the country`s women, our daughters, and our sisters.

That is the difference between 1992 & 2005. And the generals know that very well. That`s why all the hush hush.

shoresahib: thank you, sir, thank you. aap ki daad kaa shukriyaa. Warnaa yeh naacheez kis khhaet ki mooli hai! :-)

yahyajamil #103 I realize that bugti and other baluch leaders are using this case for political purposes, not out of any concern that justice is served. However, that does not mean that ordinary Pakistanis should therefore not raise their voice.

The vast majority of Pakistan army officers are no doubt honorable, ghairat mand(HP now has me feeling guilty using these words) individuals. Some of the finest individuals I have known - most of them gone by now - have been from the Pakistan military. I also know that the Pakistan military has a strong tendancy to protect its own. It is therefore all the more important that the military permit proper investigation, trial and punishment. So that the honor of the many is not besmirched by a the acts of a few subhumans. As an (ex?) army officer, you should be most strongly calling for proper investigation. Also important is that the lady doctor concerned receives the best possible emotional support. This could also be a good time for someone like Musharaff to re-affirm the high place of honor for the lady doctor - the animals may have attacked her body, but they cannot touch her soul.

As a doctor in a backward area, clearly she is the only honorable person I can see in this entire miserable episode.

ijazgul: you write to temporal ``I am ready to fly over to Canada on your expense..`` ha! ha! I too am willing to fly over to Pakistan at your expense (btw, could I come via the Pacific, with a stopover at hawaii where, in preparation for our discussions, I could further contemplate the issue on waikiki beach??)

#92 by ijaz_gul:
``As regards, East Pakistan, it remains debatable. I know many incidents where women of West Pakistani origin were dishonoured, maimed and mutilated in the genitals. In this sad chapter of history, inhuman excesses were committed by both sides.``
What a stupid, escapist comment! First you refuse to acknowledge the rapes by Pak army by saying `it remains debatable`, then you excuse it by saying `in this sad chapter of history, inhuman excesses were committed by both sides.`
Would you condone in the same manner HR violations by US army in Iraq, by comparing it with Iraqi guerillas kidnapping and murdering foreigners there, and saying excesses were commited by both sides?
Would you condone in the same manner Israeli action against Palestinians, equating it with the Palestinian suicide bombers?
The Mukti Bahini was not an army like Pak army - even then on the scale of atrocities, the two dont compare!

People from our part of the world, living in this country or in the west, still don’t understand the differences between a civil society and a feudal society. They still believe in Feudal society’s Gahirat and ignore a civilized and honorable person of any civilized society.
Obviously, it will take a long time or probably couple of generations for them to give up their silly notions of pride ghairat, izzat, khudi, izza-i-nafs, khud-dari etc.

I think these feudal inspired Ghairat mand people consider all western men BeyGhairat. Because women in the west have no qualms about sex before the marriage, men don’t kill their wives for cheating and for not disowning the rape victims like the Feudal society loves to do.

Thanks Hamidm

Here is the excerpt.

``After 1949, successive governments have continued to follow a faulty theme towards the civil society. Exclusion of the common man has resulted in despondency. Poverty, poor law and order, absence of social justice, corruption, militarisation of society, drugs, violence against select groups and rise of corrupted feudal primordialism are the major issues confronting Pakistan. These trends are visible in low turnout in elections, invitation by politicians for military interventions, tribal justice, and propagation of a feudal mindset in anyone in authority, attitudes of civil servants, an attenuating education system and a social retrograde in the rural areas. ``

Temporal,

This exploitation of the rights and perversion of the rule of law is endemic in all socities that have not developed socio economic and political pluralism. At times it also happens in advanced socities like USA. Just take the case of the illegal immigrants fron South america to till farm lands and many a cases of midcarried justice as aired by Discovery and History Channels in USA. Does the arbitrary application of LAW in Guantanemo Bay reflect justice and fairplay. Already more than half have been released as innocent, permanently indoctrinated to hate USA for the rest of their lives.

Yes Civil Socity in Pakistan is still developing, and it has something to do with the political opportunism of Qaid`s closest colleagues. For more details please see my article on Civil Society.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003687&channel=civic%20center

Well, I am a Pakistani who has risen from the rock bottom, and the society more than retard provided me the opportunities. Yes there are minor hicccups and they exist in every society. People at large still believe in fairplay, honour and justice. Just see the George Ka Pakistan at GEO and see our true potential.

I still believe there is no cover up and the facts will come out.

Any bets on that. I am ready to fly over to Canada on your expense.

Cheerios

Re: # 97

Excuse me what this `HP` means? In common parlance it means `hand practice` what the most ghairatmand and sharif persons induldge in. You can simply call them `HP`s` as menopause women are called `MP`s`. Why drag so much on definitions.

The moot point is whether it was at all a case of rape. For one, no rapist would use a condom. Even in normal sex one does not like to, so to say, wash hands with gloves on. The truth I don`t think will ever come out. We have still to know all the truth in Hamoodurrehman`s Enquiry Report.

Re: # 88
The Pakistan Army does suffer from `sub acha` (all OK) syndrome and you are right that it will cover up for many institutional failings. All armies do that, but none sanction institutional indiscipline as that will demolish the Army like no enemy can. If you can understand that, then please realise that the Sui incident has been politicised. Secondly to add to what ijaz_gul has said, the accused Captain is posted in a DSG Battalion (not Frontier Corps). This battalion is commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel. Having comanded an infantry battalion myself, I can assure you the last thing a Commanding Officer will do will be to overlook an act of indiscipline like rape. When someone quotes Bangladesh and like I have quoted Kashmir, they were and are combat like situations where individual acts of indisciline may occur. These as I say are neither ignored nor condoned. Those who have commanded troops know the horrofic results that stem from such an act.

Re: # 99

Tahmed Sahib and Shore sahib,

That was a good definition. I totally agree GHAIRAT means HONOR.

I dont know why HP continues to harp on his `` sick , twisted , sadistic meaning of ghairat``. The ghairat which he is talking about is abuse of POWER by powerful men in our society. They use this to control the weaker and less priviledged of our society namely the women and children. That is not ghairat!!!

tuff hay yara!

ghairat ki roti
aur honour ki daal
chowk kay b`rahmun
baja`aiN ooski dhOl

aur oodher quam ki, mulk ki aur auratON ki.......tuff hay yara!

Re: # 99
Yay!!!!!!!!!!!
Bravo!!
Applause for Tahmed!
What a Summation, Tahmed Sahib

HP: and just to clarify futher, let me use the term in the context of this article by trying to translate the following into english: ``No ghairat mand individual would commit rape``.
Now, replace ``ghairat mand individual`` with each of the two translations (i.e. ``self respecting`` and then your definition ``vain, egotistical , arrogant , conceited and believer in in feudal values``). See which one makes sense.

Milord, I rest my case.

HP: Ghairat AS USED BY FEUDALS is certainly along the lines you say. But Shoresahib is right: the reasonable definition of ghairat is ``honorable``; NOT ``vain, egotistical , arrogant , conceited and he believes in feudal values``. Of course a vain, conceited, feudal will use ghairat the way you say. But, since I have not had the pleasure of living among such creatures, I have always heard ghairat to be the equivalent to ``self respecting``. And self respecting is close enough to honorable (a self respecting man is by defintiion an honorable man).

And indeed, even in the urdu press and in speeches given in urdu by Pakistani leaders, the term is used to mean self-respecting (as in ``Pakistan aik ghairat mand qaum hai``).

Is there anything here that remotely relates to Ghairat!
Pay attention to 8.

hon·or Audio pronunciation of ``honor`` ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nr)
n.

1. High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate.
2.
1. Good name; reputation.
2. A source or cause of credit: was an honor to the profession.
3.
1. Glory or recognition; distinction.
2. A mark, token, or gesture of respect or distinction: the place of honor at the table.
3. A military decoration.
4. A title conferred for achievement.
4. High rank.
5. The dignity accorded to position: awed by the honor of his office.
6. Great privilege: I have the honor to present the governor.
7. Honor Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for certain officials, such as judges and mayors: Her Honor the Mayor.
8.
1. Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity.
2. A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms.
3. A woman`s chastity or reputation for chastity.
9. honors Social courtesies offered to guests: did the honors at tea.
10. honors
1. Special recognition for unusual academic achievement: graduated with honors.
2. A program of individual advanced study for exceptional students: planned to take honors in history.
11. Sports. The right of being first at the tee in golf.
12. Games.
1. Any of the four or five highest cards, especially the ace, king, queen, jack, and ten of the trump suit, in card games such as bridge or whist.
2. The points allotted to these cards. Often used in the plural.

HP:
Let me give you an Urdu Lesson. You say, ``Honorable person in Urdu would be a “Sharif Adami” Emaandar adami, law abiding, respecting, respectful and respected.

Honor has nothing to do with Ghairat as you and others are describing it
Honor is Sharafat, Mohabat, Akhlaq and responsibility. ``

Sharif Admi = Noble or Decent Man
Emaandar Adami = Honest Man
Sharafat = Nobility of character or Decency
Akhlaq either Bud or Khush = Good way of interacting and treating others or bad way
Mohabat = Love

Ghairat = Honor
Ghairatmund = One of honorable character
A Sharif Adami is not necessarily honorable. They are two completely different things, and an honorable man is not necessarily Sharif. Though these characteristics are interlinked, they are not interdependant.

tahmed
“Ghairatmand maienaiN Honorable”

Tahmed you are making a serious mistake.

Honorable person in Urdu would be a “Sharif Adami” Emaandar adami, law abiding, respecting, respectful and respected.

Honor has nothing to do with Ghairat as you and others are describing it
Honor is Sharafat, Mohabat, Akhlaq and responsibility.

A Gahairat mand person is vain, egotistical , arrogant , conceited and he believes in feudal values, prefers feudal and religious laws to the law of the land created by human being. He believes in religious retributions and punishments.
Ghairat is a feudal and tribal concept. 90% of the feudal and tribal laws are specifically against women, and deal with different aspects of man and woman relations, and in every single case, the woman is always humiliated. Because any thing related to women is a ghairat issue.
All religions were conceived and progressed in feudal and tribal societies. Hence, all of them treat women like a non-entity always making mistakes and easy picking.

Islam specifically is a product of a harsh tribal culture thus it is unable to deal with women, their rights and allows men to treat women as their property.
If you think of it in todays world a Ghairat mand man is actually a dishonorable person.

Ijaz,
Good post and I think there is an attempt to take a political mileage out of the whole thing!

#90 by ijaz_gul on February 16, 2005 7:13am PT
It amazez me how the flight by night reformers, living in an adopted land show contempt towards their country. They, like the oppotunists who are trying to make political capital out of this tragic though mishandled incident are ready to generalise the entire populace as BeGhairat. Any community worth its salt has a code of ethics and behavior and most abide by it.

ijaz:

bhai you are right only to a degree when you say we should wait for the truth to come out and not speculate in the dark...

but

if i we can learn from the past:

--there is no rule of law in pakistan and if there is:
(a) there is one set of laws for the mighty, and
(b) another set of laws for the rest

we all know who the mighty and the rest are

digression:

why do you think (it is as if almost in our genes) there is scant respect for law -- man made or ordained?

(sorry this is going to become longer than i had intended)

the same pakistani who flaunts traffic and other minor laws instantly convert to law abiding citizens when abroad...dubai, m-e. europe, n-a...have pondered over this and i think the primary reason is that they acquire a new respect for law abroad because they learn that abroad in other societies if they violate the law they will get justice...

yes, that is it: they will get justice so they obey the law

in pakistan hoping to get justice is directly proportional to your ability to influence the law -- through money, power or influence...this naturally results in scant and unhealthy respect for laws of the land by most pakistanis...

have you visited jails recently?...the young and old, both genders who are incarcerated ..without trial, or for not paying minimal fines...for years and years is a travesty of all norms...and they have no hope in hell to get justice...

...if you have tenancy or commercial issues...grease the palms...heck why am i telling you all this?...we all know the rich and powerful can get away with murder and the poor will get stuck with it...

(the solution? to bring in ways and means to enable the judiciary and law enforcement to become real independent...that means a will and ability to finance their reforms...finance means diversion of money away from defence related expenditures to civilians coffers...enhancing and amelirating the living conditions including law and order means emphasis away from occupying army dictated issues of national concern -- kashmir, defence, security, blah blah...this whole rigmarole ends with the occupying army and my unabasahed declarations on every forum and thread)

...excuse me for not following the other interesting debate over ghairat and honour...to me its relevancy here is questionable as i hope i have been able to postulate re: law, order and respect for it...

rgds

t

ijaz gul #92
Abu ghraib- this is exactly my point. 27 (?) military men/women are being tried. in 1971, 0 military men were tried. The fact that the mukti bahini did atrocities against west pakistanis is not an excuse. We must live to the standards of ``ghairat`` - not to the low standards of others.

Tahmed,
My comments are only for those whome it may concern.

Talking of the Enron within the army. Yes I agree in some ways. Being a defence analyst, I know that military corporatism and exclusivity if taken to extreme can have a negative effect. This happened in Abu Gharaib and in many other places of the world. It has perhaps also happened in the Pakistani armed forces.

Too much political interventions and the civilisation of military garrisons have indeed, also cut into this corporatism and exclusivity. Moreover, armies world over are the sole judges of their professional capabilities, and the Enron Syndrome is more likely to prevail here than anywhere else.

I do not agree that the army will cover up this incident. Such incidents are never condoned.

As regards, East Pakistan, it remains debatable. I know many incidents where women of West Pakistani origin were dishonoured, maimed and mutilated in the genitals. In this sad chapter of history, inhuman excesses were committed by both sides.

Cheerios

ijaz gul: I for one live abroad, but remain very proud of my Pakistani heritage, and have nothing but the highest respect for the ghairatmand among pakistanis (examples given in #89 and 85 below, not to mention the millions of lesser known pakistanis who may be poor but are proud and would rather give than receive). Tell me if my example of Enron in #88 below is not correct.

It amazez me how the flight by night reformers, living in an adopted land show contempt towards their country. They, like the oppotunists who are trying to make political capital out of this tragic though mishandled incident are ready to generalise the entire populace as BeGhairat. Any community worth its salt has a code of ethics and behavior and most abide by it.

Do they show similar sentiments when meniacs and serial killers rape and kill women in the West?

As I can guess, this is a case of a women amongst many men, in an environment that is socially monotonous and boring. Three condoms used by the same person indicate that either it was not a gang rape or there is some other twist about which I would not like to gossip.

Having worked in Balochistan for a long time, I know that incidents can trigger unrelated events. Discussing with a friend who is a geoloist and who has done lots of work in Sui, PirKoh Blocks, I learnt that it is impposible for a single captain to twist events or to boss around in Sui. The frontier Corps has a complete Battalion located at sui commanded by a Lt. Col with many officers. It is impossible that this captain could have acted as a lone macho man in the presence of this security. He also told me that after an incident at the compressor station in 1990, the security and intelligence at Sui had been beafed up and never reduced. He remains of the opinion that in times to come an entirely different story of events will be discovered.

So as I wrote earlier let us wait for the facts , which I am sure will be revealed particularly when the reputation of institutions is being questioned.

Cheerios

hamidm #87

Lesson 1 (Repeat after me)

Cat maenaiN Billi
Dog maenaiN Kutta
Sher maenaiN Lion
Ghairatmand maienaiN Honorable

Then go back and reread what I said in #85 and tell me if the examples I gave (the Jilani sisters, Edhi, Bhatti) are not the correct examples of a ghairatmand. WHile the examples you give (khar, jernails, hussein ahmed) are in fact of beghairats. Lets not confuse this important issue which will determine whether Pakistan emerges as a ghairatmand nation (i.e. the Jilanis and edhis and bhattis win) or a beghairat nation (i.e. if the military and mullahs and corrupt politicans win).

yahya #86 There is no doubt that the Pakistan Army is internally highly disciplined. However, that is a bit like saying Enron accounting ledgers were neat and balanced - its just that those perfectly balanced accounts were used to defraud tens of thousands of little guys off of their pension savings, and cause a major corporate scandal in the US. Similarly, it is scandalous the way in which the military has taken over the government in Pakistan.

``ghairatmand`` vs. ``honorable``

............ tahmed and mother teresa are honorable (i couldn`t think of anyone else in pakistan)
.............echoboom, qazi hussain, akbar bugti, mustafa khar, and the pakistani army are ghairatmand

.............. hope this helps

Re: # 81
Your point about my being in military is incorrect. I shed the uniform 8 years back. I am also not trying to do PR for the military. I have no such desire. Had I been in the military PR bussiness, I would have told them to come out with their version rather than maintain a silence that is leading to all sorts of conjectures. I feel that an individual act (that has not even been proved) is being made to look like an institutional failing. Pakistan Army may have made a hash of good governance and instituional building but like all professional and disciplined armies it does not sanction indiscipline and overlook crimes. I can also say that what is going on in Kashmir is sanctioned by the Indian military , otherwise there should have been an accountability after 16 years of rape of women in Kashmir. Your point that you knew that I will bring up the excesses in Kashmir does not prove that these excesses were not commited. I still maintain that both Indian and Pakistani Armies are professional and disciplined organisations and do not sanction rape or plunder as institutions. You have quoted one report on 1971. I can bring up for your information a history of 16 years of human right excesses in Kashmir by Indian Security Forces? Do we want to live in history and start of a round of accusations. 50 years of doing that has got us nowhere. As I said we can continue to be emotional about the issue, but that does not alter the fact that many members on this forum are making an alleged individual act look like an institutional act.

IMPORTANT: My posts #82, 83, 84 are disjointed and confusing. Please ignore them with my apologies. The corrected version is here:

HP #73 That is a very interesting list of characteristics of ``ghairat mand`` (in the sense of being merely oppressive to women and other weak people) vs an ``honorable`` that you draw. I am not confusing this distinction - all I am saying is that there are two different understandings of ``ghairat mand`` - i.e. (1) Honorable Person; and (2) Bullies. And I agree with the characteristics you provide in your list for each. (I would like to add a third list, and will come to it later below).

I am not confusing the distinction, just using different terms. That is, what I am saying is that the term ``ghairat mand`` is used in different senses by different people in Pakistan. The jahils use it as (2), no doubt, and are mighty proud of it. However, there are people in Pakistan (and not just among expatriate Pakistanis alone as you say) who use the term as (1).

Examples of (1) in Pakistan include: Edhi, to start with the first example I can think of, who lives a simple life style while managing a nonprofit organization worth tens of millions of dollars; the maulvi who spoke out on friday prayers against the gang rape of mukhtaran bibi by the landlord and his men, thus making it a national and later international issue; Major Aziz Bhatti who stood his ground and fought till his last breath against overwhelming odds to defend the city of Lahore in 1965; Asma and Hina Jilani, whose bravery against oppression has inspired people around the world (see link
Pakistani Sisters` Bravery Inspires Human Rights Advocates - article by American Bar Association

Thus, there is no shortage of ghairat mand (in the correct sense) people in Pakistan. Then we have the type (3), the baigharats. These are basically type (2), except they are smart enough to know what they are doing is wrong but do it anyway (these include ambitious maulvis, military officials, and oxford educated landlords like benazir).

So, to summarize, I agree with the distinction you make - and simply wish to point out that we do have truly honorable people in Pakistan as well. Indeed, my scientific research (just joking) conducted after travelling to many countries across the globe indicates that Pakistanis are second to none when in comes to honorable people.

What is missing in Pakistan (as I think is true in most countries) is the emphasis given to character building in schools; character building in the sense of instilling values provided in your list (1), not the type (2) jahaliyat that goes for ``ghairat`` among the ``dangars`` in Pakistan. This character building has I think been the distinctive feature of all successful societies - the list you drew for (1) matches in fact the list the county I live in has issued for use in all public schools!! The brits meant the same thing when they said that ``Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton`` (i.e. where character building was instilled). I will agree with you that this is character building, i.e. ghairat mand in the sense of your list (1), needs to be strengthened in the vast majority of Pakistani schools.

correction to #83. Second sentence after the link should read ``These are basically type (1)...``

further to #82 : looks like my post got cut off, so here is the rest (starts with the link I refer to in #82):

Pakistani Sisters` Bravery Inspires Human Rights Advocates - article by American Bar Association

Thus, there is no shortage of ghairat mand (in the correct sense) people in Pakistan. Then we have the type (3), the baigharats. These are basically type (2), except they are smart enough to know what they are doing is wrong but do it anyway (these include ambitious maulvis, military officials, and oxford educated landlords like benazir).

So, to summarize, I agree with the distinction you make - and simply wish to point out that we do have truly honorable people in Pakistan as well. Indeed, my scientific research (just joking) conducted after travelling to many countries across the globe indicates that Pakistanis are second to none when in comes to honorable people.

What is missing in Pakistan (as I think is true in most countries) is the emphasis given to character building in schools; character building in the sense of instilling values provided in your list (1), not the type (2) jahaliyat that goes for ``ghairat`` among the ``dangars`` in Pakistan. This character building has I think been the distinctive feature of all successful societies - the list you drew for (1) matches in fact the list the county I live in has issued for use in all public schools!! The brits meant the same thing when they said that ``Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton`` (i.e. where character building was instilled).

HP #73 That is a very interesting list of characteristics of ``ghairat mand`` (in the sense of being merely oppressive to women and other weak people) vs an ``honorable`` that you draw. I am not confusing this distinction - all I am saying is that there are two different understandings of ``ghairat mand`` - i.e. (1) Oppressor of women and other people in a position of weakness etc., i.e. bully; and (2) Honorable man. (I would like to add a third list, and will come to it later below).

I am not confusing the distinction, just using different terms. That is, what I am saying is that the term ``ghairat mand`` is used in different senses in Pakistan. The jahils use it as (1), no doubt, and are mighty proud of it. However, there are people in Pakistan (and not just among expatriate Pakistanis alone as you say) who use the term as (2).

Examples of (2) in Pakistan include: Edhi, to start with the first example I can think of, who lives a simple life style while managing a nonprofit organization worth tens of millions of dollars; the maulvi who spoke out on friday prayers against the gang rape of mukhtaran bibi by the landlord and his men, thus making it a national and later international issue; Major Aziz Bhatti who stood his ground and fought till his last breath against overwhelming odds to defend the city of Lahore in 1965; Asma and Hina Jilani, whose bravery against oppression has inspired people around the world (see link Pakistani Sister`s Bravery Inspires Human Rights Advocates - article by the American Bar Association; the Lahore cab drivers who refused payment from Indian visitors during the cricket matches last spring; the list goes on.

So, fortunately, there are enough ``ghairat man`` (in the sense of ``honorable``) people in Pakistan. And then there is the type (3) I mentioned above - this is a subtype of (1) basically, except that they are intelligent enough to know that what they are doing is wrong but do it anyway (these include politically ambitious maulvis and generals, oxford educated landlords in politics and so on).

#80

Dear Mr Jamil,

I would like to draw your attention to some recently declassified US documents on the Bangladesh war. Which are archived at:

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/

And in particular to the famous telegram by Archer Blood (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB79/BEBB1.pdf). In which he starts with:

I quote:
``Here in Dacca we are mute and horrified witnesses to the reign of terror by the pakistan military.``

With these and other documentary evidence now availalbe I would very humbly postutate that the Pakistani Army did in fact ``sanction such indiscipline`` and much more in 1971.

Yes, I know you will repond with stories about Kashmir and so on and so forth. It is not my intention to debate this with you. I understand you belng to the ``public relations`` profession and to the Pakistan Army, this I understand is a tough calling in life.

Re: # 67
(Simple...it was a gang-rape..they didn`t want the second guy to get an infection from the first guy..)
Perhaps you have not read the whole news item. It was in the News and you can read it on the internet. The news report says that according to tests, the semen belonged to one person. So, how is it gang rape. Please what I am trying to say is that we are getting carried away by media. I believe even this particular story may be planted. We have to be rational and the sort of discussion on `ghairat` that is going on seems to miss the point. This incident is not about ghairat. It is a heinous crime that must be dealt with as a crime .

(They did it in Bangladesh...so it`s par for the course... )

I can quote rape of women in Kashmir by Indian security forces that have been established by independent observors, but does that make the Indian Army an organisation that encourages rape and plunder. What happened in Bangladesh or Kashmir were perhaps individual acts which were not sanctioned by the institutions involved. We can hurl accusations and counter accusations about Kashmir and Bangladesh but that has little to do with the issue that we are discussing. Let me tell you that no professional Army (and both Indian and Pakistani Armies are professional) can afford to sanction such indiscipline.

#61 by yahyajamil

[If you are implying that the person who committed rape thought he would never be caught, then why use condoms? Your argument is going round in circles.]

A rapist can use a condom for a variety of reasons, not the least of them being burdened with unwanted consequences. Of course, Arjun also has a very valid reason.

[From my experience of over a quarter of a century in uniform let me tell you that no military person will commit a rape thinking that he will get away because the Army will protect him. He may assume that he may not be caught, but one thing is for sure if it is established that a military person has committed an offence, there is no maafi.]

Not a single person till date has been convicted for the rapes in Bangladesh.

Re: # 29

Rape is a crime against humanity. Why to invoke religion here. All politically organized religions are as a rule sectarian and hence discriminatory. Morality and justice are subservient to their sectarian, political and parochial considerations. Even the gods of some of them preach hatred of those who do not believe in them exclusively.

Now coming to the Shariah, so for as rape is concerned it is not considered a crime as such if it is committed with a person who, in Quranic words, comes into possession of one`s right hand (generally in consequence of plunder). In fact even today the very concept of `human rights and citizenship` is alien to the societies and the states where the sectarian religions dominate. What a pity that the victim of rape at Sui has been declared as `Kari` in absentia without any investigation whereas the accused is now `under investigation` without arrest to assure him that he is not to be convicted of a crime which carries death sentence. Is it not a `Jahilia` culture par excellence where the `Islamic` Constitution is supposed to reign supreme?

HP you have literally lit a few fuses....hope you are fire proof.....73 has them steaming and sweating and frothing. 8-()

you say ``I am not saying that Pakistan lacks honorable people but most of them have already moved to the US after encounters with the (expletive)Ghairatmand man. ``

Yep, they have stretched out for the safe havens............

HP,
You are so wrong!!!!

ghairat means honor and any honorable person is ghairatmand be it a woman or man. What you are talking about is a sick , twisted , sadistic view of ghairat and believe me that is not ghairat .

Re: # 73
I consider myself GhairatMund, and I dont fit even a single example of your Profile.
Such utter nonsense.
The problem is not with the concept of Ghairat, but with Its perversion.

Re: # 73
Where do you dream up such utter garbage!
Ghairat is the Urdu word for Honor.
DUH!

Tahmed,

I think you are mixing up honorable person with a (expletive) Ghairatmand Pakistani.

Here are some characteristics of an honorable person:
1. Never lies.
2. Lives a principled life
3. Incorruptible
4. Respects all religions and faiths
5. Treats people equally and respects people
6. You add more…

Here are some characteristics of a Ghairatmand man (not person because no woman is ever ghairatmand)

1. Believes in feudal traditions
2. Uses religion as his ghar ki londi
3. Hates his female relatives- mother, sister, and wife
4. Would not allow his female relative to set foot outside of house, without fifty yards of cotton on their faces.
5. Would not allow rape victims to live a peaceful life.
6. Would kill his wife or sister for having sex with other men.
7. Would brag about his sexual exploits in every mehfil.
8. Pulls religion out and the Quran out of his hip pocket on every issue
9. Would quote the Quran on the fly!
10. Supports honor killing.

I mean I can go on and on… This despicable character the Ghairatmand man is a proud follower of tribal and feudal traditions.

I am not saying that Pakistan lacks honorable people but most of them have already moved to the US after encounters with the (expletive)Ghairatmand man.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Rahul_capri here is the article

The article is called What is Feminism (and why do we have to talk about it so much)?

and is available at

http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/1feminism.html


http://cobalt.lang.osaka-u.ac.jp/~krkvls/culstud.html also has some very interesting essays on this and gender /culture studies
for some interesting articles yb some theorists in these areas.

Rahul_capri here is the article

The article is called What is Feminism (and why do we have to talk about it so much)?

and is available at

http://www.colorado.edu/English/ENGL2012Klages/1feminism.html

Re: # 67
Thank you Arjun!

Re: # 66
So true!

#61 by yahyajamil on February 15, 2005 7:11am PT


If you are implying that the person who committed rape thought he would never be caught, then why use condoms?


Simple...it was a gang-rape..they didn`t want the second guy to get an infection from the first guy..



From my experience of over a quarter of a century in uniform let me tell you that no military person will commit a rape thinking that he will get away because the Army will protect him


They did it in Bangladesh...so it`s par for the course...

It is naive to think a woman will get justice in an immoral system.....espceially when the culprit is protected and part of the system.

Don`t expect western pressure will be applied anytime soon. The `izzat` of one woman is miniscule in the realm of big games these powers play.

hamidm

yaar baRay hi bay-ghairat ho tum log.

echoboom hasn`t been popping his veins in his temples for nothing.

Re: # 55
Thank you, Tahmed Sahib.
Bohat Khoob. Hum jo na keh sake, woh Aap ney Keh diya.

The concept of Ghairat is a noble concept, but like everything else it has been perverted out of recognition in Pakistan. The Men of Pakistan think their ghairat is damaged if they see their sister talking to a stranger, or find out that she is having a romantic relationship out of wedlock, but they do nothing to change the draconian laws of Hudood Ordinance. Thus, they have totally perverted the meaning of Ghairat to suit their own selves. That is not to say that Ghairatmundi is a moot concept.

One example of the perverted mindset of the Pakistani individual:
A Rapist loots the Izzat or Respect of a Woman.
In actuality the Rapist loses his own honor, but in our society it is the poor woman who bears the brunt of being raped as if it is her fault that she got raped.
We, Pakistani are truly perverted as a whole.

We have, as a society ventured far from the noble concept of Ghairat, and have perverted to suit our perverted sense of Male Chauvanism, just as we have failed our mothers, sisters, wives and daughters.

We call ourselves the Ummah of the Prophet, yet we cant even provide justice to those most in need. The spirit of Islam has left us, and we are left with the rotten corpse of Islam. Forgeting the true spirit of concepts like Hayaa, Izzat-e-Nafs, Ghairat , Pakistanis hold on to their rotten disfigured effiges.

hamidm2, good afternoon. You have put your finger on it (or hit the nail or bulls eye) with you first para of #60. Really there is nothing more that can be said (or needs to be said)after that.

But...(there is always a but or an if......) is to dowith this concept of ``Civil Society governed by laws and legislatures``. That is where the argument will be. That is where the spin is. You and me and others will be at one end of the argument and the others well....Thrown in the phrase/keywords ``western educated`` ``yahoodi`` ``decadent`` and a few other words we are back to square one.

There appears to be a lack of an agreed definition of what is meant by ``Civil Society governed by laws and legislatures``.

Re: # 44
(The only reason the rapist left behind the condom was the very reason he committed the rape in the first place...that he would never be caught.)

If you are implying that the person who committed rape thought he would never be caught, then why use condoms? Your argument is going round in circles. Please try and understand that I am not defending anyone. A rape is perhaps worse than murder - in many ways. The victim lives to die every day. From my experience of over a quarter of a century in uniform let me tell you that no military person will commit a rape thinking that he will get away because the Army will protect him. He may assume that he may not be caught, but one thing is for sure if it is established that a military person has committed an offence, there is no maafi. Secondly this rape is an individual act. Like so many other members on this forum, I am against the role of Army in politics and the institutional damage it has caused, the exploitation of religion by its longest serving Chief etc etc, but would not believe that the organisation would defend a rapist. What is not correct is the silence by the Army authorities on the on going investigation into the incident that is leading to conjectures.

hp............

.......i agree with you .... ghairat, izzat, khudi, izza-i-nafs, khud-dari and other such nonsense are empty slogans offered by folks who do not understand the concept of civil society governed by laws and legislatures ............. these are the same people who try to sell an abomination like pashtunwali as a valid legal and judicial system complete with honor killings, ritual stonings and kangaroo courts ..............

......... people in pakistan, specially the chattering middle class, talk a lot about ghairat and izzat - it is nonsense ! ........ghairat and izzat are nothing but a manifestation of the feudal mind set that pervades the society at all levels ......................

rahul_c I am just making a suggestion as why the whole issue of respectability and victimhood of the rape wictim is played out. Essentially it is to do with the way the whole concept of Rape and Justice given to the victim has evolved over a period of time. If one can get a handle on that you can get to grips with it. respectability as a concept whic is PREVALENT more in the POOR SOCIETIES than in the educated ones. In educated societies respectabiity is a function of your demeanour, education and civilisationability. Remember in poor uneducated societies, might is always right - so the down trodden have only one thing left - that is the abstract concept of RESPECTABILITY.

rahul_capri that link was removed by the powers that be on chowk. Either in their excitement of removing/deleting other posts the accidentlly deleted mine or there was something wrong with them. I will put the http address here later on....

BTW I am suggesting that the way the victimhood is shown should be moved - from one of demanding justice through self-pity (and the respectability issue) to one of making it a crime period (once it is proved that rape has happened). If you remove the issue of mitigating circumstances, the defence used by the rapist, you will automatically get rid of the slf-pity aspect of the raped. Then rape would be put on a more equal footing to other crimes.

SOS, I am not saying that concept of victimhood is to be removed. Look at my example pf road accident. The driver would have been punished, and the victim would have gone along leading his her normal life .
QC&P Such trains of thought have led me to believe that taboo on sex is nothing but the most powerful tool of misogyny by the patriarchal powers that be.On another note(though on the same subject), that paper on Roxana was great , but I did not find the other link you were refererring to though, in a post yerterday.
tahmed, Will we still be talking about ghairat and oppression of women if a truck driver had bumped a woman and the army was hiding it? This is what, I think , HPs point is.
I would have liked to reply in greater detail, maybe later.

Jahil,
like the people who raped others were punished.....read the whole interact before hiting the reply key.

In general in Pakistan the Life of a WOMAN is cheap. Women have been raped before, or killed to save honour of family. None of the perpetrators of these crimes have been brought to justice. Atleast in the west which you say has the problems you mentioned, people get justice. The west is a safe haven compared to the cess-pits some of our homelands have become.

Your statement reminds me ofthe sayingthe devil and the deep blue sea! That is where women are often there. (I would suggest you look up the origins of this saying!)

HP #49 Clearly you were referring to a very different concept of ``ghairat`` than shoresahib and others.

Thus, the concept of ghairat you referred to (and opposed) is, e.g., forbidding an unmarried man and and woman from falling in love for any reason. No one here will disagree that (while this is practiced in the more backward areas of Pakistan) this is NOT ghairat - this is simply the oppression of the weak by the strong and the suppression of the rights of consulting adults to fall in love.

The concept of ghairat shoresahib and others is, e.g. the punishment through due process of law of a man who has raped a woman. It is indeed beghairatee for all of us Pakistanis that such oppression of women is permitted. It is beghairatee that not one man was brought to justice for attacking sikhs and hindus in 1947. It is beghairatee that there was no public outcry in the newspapers (the fact that muslims were also killed by hindus and sikhs does not absolve us).

As Socrates said, first define your terms.

Re: # 34

first of all the reasons you mentioned for criticizing this event are not quite right. I guess the actual reasons are:

1. A woman was raped.
2. She was raped by an Army officer.
3. The army is trying to cover-up the matter.
4. The victim was forcefully sent away from the jurisdiction of the crime so that an FIR could not be launched.
5. The Army and Agencies are trying to pressurize the victim and her family.
6. To try to get justice for the victim and to put the rapists behind bars.

further you said:

``All of the above are pretty abhorent crimes, and anyone indulging them should be hung drawn and quartered . And when these guys are hung, drawn and quartered, youwill have good precedents, and hopefully there will be law and order.``

I am surprised by your statement and such other statements that the rapist should be hung!! as on one hand you guys like a punishment as severe as death for him and on the other hand when it comes to Islamic penalization all of you shout against it being severe, absurd and out dated.

Then you say:

``Till then I am afraid we all have to reach the safe havens of the west (the kafir lands) for some form of self-respect.``

Which safe havens are you talking about? The ones in U.S.A. where rape and child molestering is at its peak? where the murder/ crime rate is the highest in the world?

Europe? where racism and discrimination runs in the blood of people. Where Muslim girls are not allowed to cover their heads in school? and where there is no self respect for the bloody asians or Muslims?

I obviously do not support the rapist and totally agree with you all but I feel that our spectrum of thought needs to be a bit widened and we should not have discrepancies in our statements whatever the scenario may be.

Rahul_C and HP
there is a problem here. Victimhood is perfectly alright. If we remove all sense of victimhood (god this is a pathetic word but will stick with it it), then the sense of wrong doing in the crime vanishes.

Perhaps what you are asking for a a different sense of this victimhood - move of from of helplesness to one of anger. If so, the immediate question is how are going to go about doing it? What are the steps you are going to take to get to that point?

#37, #47 and others (Rahul_capri, HP, QCP et al).....
interesting questions being raised. There is a small problem here.....there are two parties to the rape scenario ( trying to be gender neutral here)

(a) the person who raped
(b) the person who has been raped.


All you seem to be alluding to the so called double whammy against women. To quote `` Every culture, not just eastern and third world, but western and developed countries too, somehow treat rape as something which is demeaning to the victim herself.`` (ghairiat issue etc)

There are two aspects here: one is the actual act of the crime itself. the second is the defence of the rapist and the response of the raped. The rapist`s first line of defence is always that the person who got raped was asking for it, we are all familiar with this line of argument and I will not go into it. There are a number of levels to this argument. The second line of defence is that the rapist lost his/her (often it is a him) mind and in a moment of insanity he committed this act. the third line of defence is that he is totally deranged.

With each on of these lines of defence there is (or was) a likelyhood that the rapist would go scotfree. Also note till recently rape was not a crime. The only way arond this was to make the raped be a victim (and a a crime ). Unfortunately this has been turned into victimhood and you have to make the society feel sorry for you so that the damned rapist can get the few years in jail (that often he comes back to haunt the living daylights out of you later on is another matter).

Even after it (rape) has been made a crime( a penal offence), because of the lines of defence the rapists use, the raped has to always invariably fall back on to being a victim. Note all this after proving that the raped was raped - so the poor raped has to keep all Genetic Material on (or in ) THEMSELVES so that it can be proved beyond doubt sexual intercourse had taken place. (these days ofcourse this has been considerably weakened and rape has a much broader meaning in the civilised world and hence it is possible to get some form of redress for sexual harrassment/teasing/flirting etc if youdont like it)). Them comes the various lines of defence.

We are dealing with the mind. And how all of this plays in the mind of the victim is important. In educated societies, these issues are dealt with more soberly. In undereducated societies this invariably becomes emotive issue. Remember respectablity is a very emotional issue and an emotional response.

#48 by HP

[So how many people in Gujarat have so far been punished for rape?]

Don’t get too emotional. The mobs that indulged in violence in Gujarat can be accused of anything but rape. Please get your facts right.

[Both Dalits and Muslims claim that they are treated as second-class citizen in India. Some Dalits even think they are treated worst than that. There are 1001 references available on the net.]

I don’t deny some Dalits and Muslims feel that way. But there are any number of them who think otherwise too. The Indian state does not discriminate against the disaffected, some Indians may.

[If you wanna play that finger pointing game, then let it roll.]

Take it easy mate, I was only responding to some Paki interactors who want to convince us that the Paki Army does not condone rape.

Aziz Narejo you have actually labeled your hidden agenda by labeling this article...that gang rape...a no doubt a very heinous act...was not done by ARMY but an individual who unfortunately is a part of army...but your article heading suggest that the rape was committed by the whole army.. Its like when a sindhi commits a crime and we will say all sindhis are criminal..

and there is also no doubt that after the crime there were attempts to protect the criminal by some influential persons but considering the general corruption and nepotism that prevails in our society...we cannot simply generalize that the cover up was official from army...every one of us try to use our ``contacts`` whenever is possible and the criminal did the same thing..!

#47 by rahul_capri

Rahul,

That is the reason I wanted to challenge that Ghairat thing. Why women exploitation becomes a Ghairat issue? What kind of honor is that you demonize your own relations for some thing they did not have any control over.
Why is it wrong for an adult girl to have sex with men without having any marital relations with them? Why a brother would go bonkers over his sister’s transgression but not give up an opportunity to sleep with any woman himself.
Shouldn’t the sister make that a ghairat issue too?

Let me go further into this sex outside of marriage that I talked about in my earlier post. I am not so sure about Indians but a Pakistani man with a perverted mind would consider that an ultimate crime. It is actually worst than murder.
Why having sex is akin to murder or it deserves murder? If a wife has sex outside the marriage, deal with it and the maximum penalty may be a divorce and that too because of incompatibility or breach of a mutually agreed contract. Nobody needs to die or be demonized for having sex for god sake!

I agree with you on the rape issue. I have met many women in the US, who were able to talk about rape without any impact on their person or their social standing though it did leave psychological scars for them. Unfortunately, in Pakistani society for a rape victim life is like mar mar kay jeena!

#43 by harish_hyd
[How many people were punished severely for the rapes in Bangladesh?]
“You’re forgetting the fact that the Bong Muslims were considered inferior to the superior West Paki Muslims, so it was okay you know.”

So how many people in Gujarat have so far been punished for rape?

Both Dalits and Muslims claim that they are treated as second-class citizen in India. Some Dalits even think they are treated worst than that. There are 1001 references available on the net.
Every society has it share of perverts. Indian and Pakistani societies are no exception. If you wanna play that finger pointing game, then let it roll.

Re: # 37
HP, nice post.Here is part of my post on another issue on another site .

``Furthermore, this is my personal opinion and I would like to examine it by posting it here, that the heinousness of sexual violence is actually a double whammy against women.Every culture, not just eastern and third world, but western and developed countries too, somehow treat rape as something which is demeaning to the victim herself.There are hoards of examples in our culture. For example - I can rememeber countless scenes from hindi movies when the woman after being raped..says.. ``Ab to mai kisi ko muh dikhane ke kabil nahi rahi..`` and goes to commit suicide or something.Or another-the term ``izzat lootna `` How can somebody`s izzat be looted? If a man is raping a woman, is he surrendering his own izzat or looting hers? Why do we tolerate and use such language? I wonder how it came to be this way. It seems like a big conspiracy which generations of men have perpetrated against women, and we are so steeped in this nonsense that we make it true by believing in it. We are actually making the crime more heinous by believing that it is heinous.After the victim is raped, besides the obvious physical trauma of rape, she also has to undergo pity of the bechari rape victim and stuff like that. Its not like a car hit you when you are crossing the road and you report the driver to the police.The pity for a rape victim is like ``iski to life barbad ho gayi..`` and not like ``iska haath toot gaya`` or something. Besides this,esides the cultural component, there is one more component of the stupidity against rape victims- male chauvinism .some males feel that if a girl wears ``provocative`` clothes,she is a party to the crime and she invites rape, which is comeple BS according to me.I wonder what they would feel if they were raped by girls for wearing some provocative clothes or stuff like that.So, in campaigning against sexual violence, if we work against the attitudes pertaining to it, so that- a) The victim does not get patronizing ,demeaning and idiotic sympathy and ostracization. b) Her case is judged farily and the blame not apportioned to her for not confirming to some stupid parochial norms .. The ostracizing of victims and the shame they might possibly feel(ironically) for being a victim might possibly change.That might lead to more and more rape cases being reported and rapists being punished.``

I totally agree with harish sahib. But find it very funny is a sick sort of way the whole
idea of leaving behind a condom.

Re: # 44
Thank You!!!

#38 by yahyajamil

[I think it isabsurd for the rapist to use condoms and then also leave them behind. For the very reason you mention that the rapist use condoms, why would he leave these behind?]

The only reason the rapist left behind the condom was the very reason he committed the rape in the first place...that he would never be caught.

#5 by arjun_m

[How many people were punished severely for the rapes in Bangladesh?]

You’re forgetting the fact that the Bong Muslims were considered inferior to the superior West Paki Muslims, so it was okay you know.

Here are some excerpts from an article by a Pakistani (Hamid Hussain) on how West Pakis had for long looked down upon East Pakis and how the long-held prejudices finally culminated in the horrific genocide of 1971:

``The prejudice against Bengali Muslims has a long history and was quite prevalent long before Pakistan emerged as an independent state. Muslim intellectuals, elites and politicians, who belonged to northern India, had the picture of a Muslim as tall, handsome and martial in character. As Bengali Muslims did not fit into this prejudiced and racist picture, therefore they were ignored at best and when even allowed to come closer, were considered inferior. Bengalis were shunned despite their political advancement and strong resentment against oppression and tyranny. A large portion of Bengali Muslims was converts from Hindu low castes. The ``noble borns`` of Bengal claimed foreign ancestry (Syed, Afghan, Mughal). The majority of Bengali Muslim population which had customs common with Hindu peasantry and had a proud sense of their language was not considered as ``proper Muslims`` by some Bengali ``nobles`` and almost all of West Pakistan.``

Aren`t we committing rape here by flashing the name of the victim and referring to the perpetrator of the crime as `a captain in the army`?

A wish for Valentine`s Day
Love One Another

Love one another, but make not a bond of love.
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
Fill each other`s cup, but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread, but eat not from the same loaf.
Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone.
Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.
Give your hearts, but not into each other`s keeping.
For only the hand of life can contain your hearts.
And stand together, yet not too near together.
For the pillars of the temple stand apart.
And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other`s shadow.

Khalil Gibran

Re: # 37
You are entitled to your ideas.
You are right! Rape is not a ghairat issue for the victim, for rape does not taint her honor, but for the Patriarchy that makes the laws. Legal systems are based upon morality and that my dear is subjective. When the Judiciary, Legislators, Police fail to make, pass, and enforce just laws in the land, they lose their honor not just in the view of others, but in the eyes of God.
Ghairat is a matter of dignity. If we cant prevent such heinous crimes, then we as a nation atleast need to punish them. It is a matter of our self-respect as a nation that calls its self Pakistan.
The word is supposed to mean something, and the purity and Hayaa of Islam is invoked just by calling one`s self Pakistani.
If you think such thoughts are bogus. Think away.
It matters not an iota to me, whether you endorse or despise ideas contradictory to yours.

This is a pathetic attempt to treat this rape incident as an isolated one with out looking into what is happening to the society at large. The military has let down the law and order situation to such an extent that organisations are hiring military to protect their installation, that is on a payment basis. You have WAPDA managed by the military hiring military as guards to protect transmission towers. This is a fantastic arrangement, the same is happening to the gas plants, military is hired on payment basis.

I am sure some one familiar with the pak military, can they see an economic opportunity. having cornered the cement, corn flakes, okhara farms, fishing, is it possible that military is looking for further revenue opportunities.

Re: # 13
ShoreSahib,
I think it isabsurd for the rapist to use condoms and then also leave them behind. For the very reason you mention that the rapist use condoms, why would he leave these behind? A crime has been committed and it is heinous. However, the media appears to be having a great time with conjectures at the cost of the poor victim. Similarly, if the Army Captain is innocent, then the Army should realise that the longer they keep mum, the greater damage it does to him and the Army`s image. If he is guilty the Army should make an example of him like the Tando Bhawal case. If they are waiting for the DNA test well that is another thing.
I agree with Romair that the Army has absolutley no interest in protecting the Captain (son or no son of three or four star), but Army also does not victimise its personnel.

Good post #34 by queen_cut&paste,

I will continue to harp on this Ghairat thing and Haya nothing!

If the educated from our part of the world continue to have this kind of bogus thoughts in their heads, then what can we expect from our poor and uneducated. Rape is not a ghairat issue it is a purely legal and criminal issue and people should make sure that the laws are followed and are followed in a timely manner instead of making it a Sindhi Ghairat ka sawal hai or Balochi Ghairat Ka sawal hai. Sindh ghairat say Arabian ocean main nahin dooba ga because of this rape nor would Balochistan. They will remain where they are.

But let’s first try and decipher this Ghairat and Haya. What are these animals?

Okay would a ghairatmand Zamindar sit down on the floor and ask his hari/kissan/mazarah to sit on the chair?

Would this Ghairatmand Zamindar allow his 13 years old sister to clean his hari/kissan/mazarah home for money on a daily basis?


Is Gahirat a one-way street only or women have same rights in this too?

A situation:
What should a man do if his wife has relations outside the marriage?
Should he kill himself?
Should he kill her?
Should he make her leave home or
Should he kill her paramour/paramours?

What is his wife’s Ghairat, if she catches him in a relationship?
Should she kill herself?
Should she kill him?
Should she make him leave home or
Should she kill his mistress?

Female having sex outside the marriage is a Ghairat issue for men only.

Lets come to the rape issue.
if a female army captain had raped a male doctor with her friends would that still be a Ghairat issue? (This can happen!)

Would SANA be still issuing press releases and Saying “Bhainsaan sindhi manoo ji izzat lut gi vai”?

Would people still be writing letters: Dear Brother, we are bey Ghairat!

Further more!
In Karachi, there are approx. 5000 girls, helping their families by selling bodies. They are not doing it for themselves they are the only bread earners in the family. Would you call them prostitute or are they being raped everyday because they have no other choice. Where would Ghairat stand in this issue? Do their father and Brothers have some Ghairat or they are all bay-Ghairat! Obviously all those girls are bey haya!

What does Haya mean?
Does it mean lowering your eyes when a man passes by a female?
Does it mean to cover head when a female see a man?
Does it mean to hide all your body part because if a man looks at a female body, female body would go on fire?

If they don’t do all of the above, are they beyhaya and are subject to remedial classes?

Finally, people have this habit of pulling the Quran out of their hip pocket on every issue. First, they need to keep it at some respectable place. Second, the Quran was written in a tribal era so it carries tribal values and lastly, it is a religious book and not some sociology 101 to cite for every issue.

queen_cut&paste #34

`` The only reason everyone is upset about this case is that

(a) it is an educated person who was raped
(b ) its a medical professional who was raped
(c ) being a medical professional there a pretty high probablity she is reasonably connected
(d ) because it has happened in Baluchistan ``

I would presume being a medical personnel would give you some respect in society. A lady doctor who has delivered babies for lower middle class and poor ppl is unlikely to ever get attacked by fathers and brothers of those babies. It is true in some parts of the world.

Urstruly #29

`` Sharia Laws have not made the legal system weak, it is the dualty in the system that has made a joke of whole legal system. Military rule has created this dualty for political reasons. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) once said ``the nations before you were destroyed because when a weak individual in the society committed a crime they used to punish him severly and when a strong among them committed the same crime they used to look the other way. I swear to God if Mohammad`s own daughter had committed an act of stealing, I would have cut her hands off myself``. Thesystem that military has created for us is exactly the system that Holy Prophet warned us of. The people of Pakitan are disenfranchised to such an extent that they cannot remove the dualty in the legal system where Isalmic law is used to punish weak of the society and English Common law is used for those who can`t manage to get away, whereas ruling class is immune from any law. How the hell it is not a political issue. Why the hell should we not ``score`` political points. Everything goes to the politics of the country. In dictatorships all fingers are pointed at the despot.

Lets be fair here. Although, in Pakistan the courts decide some of the cases on Hadud and other laws, the legal verdicts are never carried thru. Since the time Zia has enacted so called Islamic laws, not a single individual has been leashed with 80 leashes in a public place for fornication. No adulterer has ever been stonned to death; no individual has been punished with leashes for consuming liquor, no hands have been chopped off and no individual has been given death penalty for blasphemy. Now please explain to me how a system can be ineffective when it is not even in practice yet. I would say if one individual is stonned to death for adultery, men will keep their snakes in their pants for next 50 years and we wouldn`t find ourselves whinning here like eunichs. ``

Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have strict laws supposedly based on Islam. I doubt it prevents the ruling elites from indulging in excesses. They get their share of flesh and wine. It does not hurt to have lots of money that they can buy all the sins of life. ``Islamic`` law is just a stick to keep the populations in check.

lets face it - the life of a woman is cheap is pakistan. women have been raped before with whole villages and communities present as an audience and nothing much happened to the people who raped, and to those numbskulls who instigated them.

The only reason everyone is upset about this case is that

(a) it is an educated person who was raped
(b ) its a medical professional who was raped
(c ) being a medical professional there a pretty high probablity she is reasonably connected
(d ) because it has happened in Baluchistan

Otherwise this would have been old history by now. So whats the point in shedding these crocodile tears now. It is unseemly and pretty disgusting to see all the faux chest beating and tub thumping going on.

AS URSTRULY and Tahmed and others have said (could be HP I dont recall) Law and Order is what the feudal want rest is meaningless. So if you really want this thing called law and order and punishement for rapists do any one of the following

(a) Catch hold of the women of the top 50 families in pakistan
and
(b ) march them up and down the streets of Pakistan without any modesty
OR
(c ) Do (a) and rape (preferably by a few 100 of the low class men) them is full view of the city (say in the Qaddafi stadium) and have it televised
Or
(d) do (a) and I leave the rest to your imagination.

All of the above are pretty abhorent crimes, and anyone indulging them should be hung drawn and quartered . And when these guys are hung, drawn and quartered, youwill have good precedents, and hopefully there will be law and order.

Till then I am afraid we all have to reach the safe havens of the west (the kafir lands) for some form of self-respect.

Sad and pathetic situation yes. But that is the reality and all we can do is wring our collective hands helplessly and pray to the god for justice.

Re: # 31
Haya is a Quranic Concept. It refers to the modesty enjoined upon Muslim Men and Women. It refers to the purity of character.
You are entitled to your opinion about Honor being a non sensical concept. So be it.
As far as the poor girl is concerned, she is working to earn her living, and that is a source of honor for her. The poor man squating on the floor infront of the Zamindaar is no less Ghairatmund than the Zamindaar. Ghairat has nothing to do with wealth and power, and everything to do with one`s character.
Are you implying poor people have no honor?

``A civil society never decides cases based on abstract concepts`` HP

America also decides much based on abstract concepts like Pursuit of liberty, freedom of speech, Preamble to the Constituiton, etc.

Urstruly #29 The important thing is to have a system for making laws that ensures open debate and modifications over time to reflect the results of experience. It is this system that has been reduced to shambles by the military governments by their constant coups, issuances of ordinances under the cover of religion.

The pakistan penal and civil code is no doubt based on british law as you say - AND it has stood the test of time because it was put together through the kind of constitutional system I mention above.

If sharia laws were introduced through such a system, they would no doubt be modified anyway - since they do not even reflect the Quran, and were merely vehicles of the ottoman and other kings to impose their rule in the same way pakistani rulers have tried to do. Thus (to take just one example) the hadood ordinance nowhere reflects the Quranic injunction calling for mercy in case of repentence. Thus, even from a purely religious point of view it is defective. So: the key thing is to have a democratic system in place. Then let the people decide. Not generals. Not kings. Not maulvis.

Ghairatmand, Haya are nonsensical concepts promoted by the feudal society. There is no such thing as Ghairat or Haya for poor folks in Pakistan or in a civil society. How many people in the US or the West talk about Ghiarat and Haya when dealing with a rape case? What happens to Ghairat when a poor man has to sit on the floor in front of Ghairatmand zamindar or when a 13 years old poor girl has to clean a Ghairatmand Zamindar’s house?
A civil society never decides cases based on abstract concepts.
These things sound good in Punjabi movies but no law or reprimand should be based on these abstract concepts.
Do people talking about Ghairat also support Honor killing?

Re: # 23
HP

only Ghairat mand men and women have the power to change the laws and create a society which honors and respects all its citizens. Ghairat does not neccesarily mean going out and killing as in the honor killing but having enough honor and dignity to realize the difference between right and wrong and having the guts to stand up for what is true and just.

tahmad:

Sharia Laws have not made the legal system weak, it is the dualty in the system that has made a joke of whole legal system. Military rule has created this dualty for political reasons. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) once said ``the nations before you were destroyed because when a weak individual in the society committed a crime they used to punish him severly and when a strong among them committed the same crime they used to look the other way. I swear to God if Mohammad`s own daughter had committed an act of stealing, I would have cut her hands off myself``. Thesystem that military has created for us is exactly the system that Holy Prophet warned us of. The people of Pakitan are disenfranchised to such an extent that they cannot remove the dualty in the legal system where Isalmic law is used to punish weak of the society and English Common law is used for those who can`t manage to get away, whereas ruling class is immune from any law. How the hell it is not a political issue. Why the hell should we not ``score`` political points. Everything goes to the politics of the country. In dictatorships all fingers are pointed at the despot.

Lets be fair here. Although, in Pakistan the courts decide some of the cases on Hadud and other laws, the legal verdicts are never carried thru. Since the time Zia has enacted so called Islamic laws, not a single individual has been leashed with 80 leashes in a public place for fornication. No adulterer has ever been stonned to death; no individual has been punished with leashes for consuming liquor, no hands have been chopped off and no individual has been given death penalty for blasphemy. Now please explain to me how a system can be ineffective when it is not even in practice yet. I would say if one individual is stonned to death for adultery, men will keep their snakes in their pants for next 50 years and we wouldn`t find ourselves whinning here like eunichs.

Re: # 23
I am amazed that you do not know the meaning of Ghairat. I was taught at a very early age the difference between Ghairatmundi and BeyGhairtee. My grandmother taught me that To be GhairatMund is to have honor and respect for one`s self and others. It is a related concept to Hayaa, applicable equally to both men and women. It is not a feudal conception but a concept rooted firmly in the character building of the South Asian psyche.
Have you ever heard, Chulloo Bhar Pani mein Doob maro!

``This bey Ghairat and Ghairat things are feudal and tribal concepts. In a civil society, there are laws that deal with the criminal cases like Rape. Let the law takes its course and not sensationalize this issue for political gains.
I wish SANA could spend its energies talking about the real issues in Sindh and stop promoting feudal agenda of honor and Ghairat!`` HP

What Law! What justice? The farce called the Hudood Ordinance! What world do you live in? Since when did the People of Pakistan start recieving Justice? We are not a civil society, rather one of powermongers and great injustice.

The question is do we care about our women or not? We are supposedly a Muslim country yet women are raped, beaten, burned, sold, sodomized in a muslim country. I work with rape victims and I tell them it is not your fault. When I think, if I was to counsel women in Pakistan what woud I say I am at a loss for words. I think every woman no matter who she is should fear being raped in Pakistan because we do not punish our rapists. We as a nation breed and develop rapists, as silence is akin to agreement and encouragment.
If a woman report rapes she is put in jail because of zina charge under the sharia law. The hudood laws are a mockery of Islam made by a general who wanted to please the clergy and rule. As far as finding a witness is concerned who in the right mind will come forward and say, arrest me please , for I have raped? So until the laws are changed men are free to rape and roam on the streets of Pakistan looking for their next victim. Until that day, I just hope and pray that somone we love does not become a vitim of rape.

it does not make sense for the military to protect the guilty. it is not like the accused is some bigshot. This seems like bad press and too much trouble.

HP: There is no doubt that the captain will get his day in court, and if there is any doubt of his guilt he will be set free. The people raising a hue and cry about this (even if it is baluchi sardars using this as a tool) are doing a service to the cause of human justice.

Last year, a poor peasant woman was gang raped in Pakistan by the landlord and his men, as you know. It goes to the credit of the village maulvi that he spoke out against this in friday prayers (thus proving there are good people even among maulvis), and this raised awareness nationally and internationally - the result was that the men were tried, found guilty and executed. And the peasant woman received funds through which she has started a school for girls in her village. So, public outcry CAN have an effect.

I was proud of our military 40 years ago when they defended the nation`s honor against heavy odds, and fought and lay down their lives like honorable men. Never after that. Today, I am proud of our civilians who are standing up to the same military.

further to #22 the christian boy i refer to was of course terrorized (until some european country took him in) under the blasphemy laws, of course, not under hadood laws as i wrote incorrectly. but the basic point is the same - sharia laws have strengthened the already unacceptable level of control by the government over the life and honor of the individual in Pakistan.

Shoresahib,
Can you explain what Bey-Ghairat Men and Ghairatmand mean?
Do we have stats on how many Rapes are committed in Pakistan and how many Ghairat mand die because of that?

Rape is a horrible crime. It may also be true that an army officer did it, and it may further be true that army is covering up for its officer.
But, what about people that are using it for political purposes? Are they Ghairat mand or they are as much Bey ghairat as the people that are protecting the army officer.

This bey Ghairat and Ghairat things are feudal and tribal concepts. In a civil society, there are laws that deal with the criminal cases like Rape. Let the law takes its course and not sensationalize this issue for political gains.
I wish SANA could spend its energies talking about the real issues in Sindh and stop promoting feudal agenda of honor and Ghairat!

urstruly: while i agree with most of what you say, you need to be objective and fair when it comes to sharia laws rather than trying to absolve their role in weakening the legal framework of pakistan by trying to find loopholes in them. The plain and simple fact is that the sharia laws are in fact military ordinances issued by zia, and they have had the effect of giving legal cover to the arbitrary power over the life and honor of individual pakistanis that a military dictator already enjoys.

This has weakened the legal system in Pakistan - thus making it even easier than it already is for the powerful to exercise control over the weak. The only valid laws are those that are made by a properly elected legislature, after due and open debate. None of this took place in case of the hadood laws when they were introduced. And they have been the source of much injustice - as in case of the 14 year old christian boy who was sentenced to death under these laws, when the problem was that he annoyed some local big-wig; or to the women who have been raped and put in jail as a result of these laws.

what is a woman or two?

the occupying army rapes and plunders the whole country

the above is facetious

***

on a more serious note, the women in the islamic republic are (exceptions aside) a notch below the fallen atumn leaf...religion, logic, rights, respect, rationality notwithstanding

Romair #17 you write ``Can a Captain rape someone and get away with it? Having been a Captain, I would have to say, ``No,`` for various reasons that are too detailed to explain here. ``

You rape logic and murder facts when you say this.

Shoresahib: you write ``People of Pakistan lose their honor each time a rape goes unpunished. ``

Well said.

Shoresahib: you write ``People of Pakistan lose their honor each time a rape goes unpunished. ``

Well said.

The first question is: Did the Captain actually rape the lady doctor? So far, it seems to be press reportings. Most people seem to be just letting out their frustrations and scoring political points. This, in itself is a crime. Individuals, using the rape of a women, to push their own political agenda- be it in Pakistan or on this site - should be considered dispicable.

The second question is: Can a Captain rape someone? I would say, ``Yes.`` Rapists exist everywhere. And one would have to assume, that a 500,000 person organization, will have some.

The third question is: Can a Captain rape someone and get away with it? Having been a Captain, I would have to say, ``No,`` for various reasons that are too detailed to explain here. I doubt I could have ever gotten away from a court martial, as a Captain, if I had raped someone. If nothing else, I would have been ex-communicated from the military community, because no officer in a unit, base, station would want me living in the same neighborhood as their daughters and wives..........

There is only action that the Army, traditionally, protects its junior officers in, in relation to non-military organizations. And that is when junior officers go and beat up policewallahs. This tends to happen, now and then, because Army Captains and police officers, and specially sepoys, tend to go at it, once in a while. And, as per tradition, everyone from the Colonel to the General, supports his soldiers in such fights.......Interestingly most civilians in the jurisdiction of the police thana, also support the soldiers...........

Har Nari Ka Hai Adhikar,
Milay Samman aur Pyar.

It is the Right of every woman,
that she recieve Respect and Love.

Sanwari Devi in Rajasthan never got her justice. Watch Bawandar!

This case is not related to that individual victim but it is related to the whole feminity of Pakistan, now she is victimized may be tomorrow we r on her place.There is no single remedy of this social problem.Such issues such be put up on national n international level rather than putting them behhind the curtain only because the accused are Pak army`s rats...bullshit.
This is not a single case but there are lot many others which are hidden only bcuz victims r threatened.Such attitude of these peoples especially of Pak army is ruining Pakistan image.Womens should fight for their own dignity n self respect and this can only be done if they r provided wid solid platform to solve their problems.

If I had to face the rape victim I will first give her a hug and then tell her:-

Dear sister,
You live in a country of Bey-Ghairat Men, who cannot even promise you relief from small crimes against women such as eve-teasing so how are they going to get you justice for a much severe crime like rape.
Wipe your tears, and know that your honor is still untainted. In the eyes of God, the rapist and those who cant get you justice lose honor. People of Pakistan lose their honor each time a rape goes unpunished.
You, my sister are simply budnaseeb for being born in a country of NaaMards.
May Allah give you peace, and take retribution from the aggressors in this world and the next.

Re: # 10
Why is it interesting that the rapists used condoms. It only makes sense, if you are a rapist. Either your semen if found on the rape victim could convict you or the chance of resulting pregnancy can.
Why does one get the feeling that you think it absurd for a rapist to use condoms?

Lets admit to the fact that as far as law is concerned, Pakistan is a banana republic. The only law that exists is the law which gives the ruling class powers to control the oppressed class. People have absolutely no confidence in the system of justice, and that is the reason whenever an outrageous situation, like this, arises people take to the streets and rocket launchers. In this particular case, I have absolutely no hope that justice will be served. Unless fauj is serious, it must allow Dr. and her immediate family safe passage to leave country and go to a safe law abiding country like Sweden, Canada or Norway. There must be foreign observers from those countries (definitely not from US and Britain) who will examine the evidence and certify that it hasn`t been corrupted. But then I think about those thousands of women who are just about to be raped in coming few days or those innocent people who are about to be murdered or robberies that are about to happen, the plots that are about to be occupied by fauji qbza group..... and so on so forth. People must realize that Pakistan cannot become a law abiding society as long as the fauj - the ultimate law breaker - is in power. Fauj must be humiliated, defeated, disbanned, and contained in barracks if Pakistanis want to live in peace.

Under Islamic law rape does not fall under the category of Hadud crime - it is a Tazeer, hence does not require the testimony of four witnesses for conviction. Which means that the judicial system is free to set a criteria as it deems fit to prosecute the rape case. Forensic and circumstancial evidence can be used to prove the case, however, such evidence cannot be used to convict rapist for a Hadd punishment. If prosecution proves that the accused has actually committed the rape then rapist is sentenced with a punishment chosen arbitrarily by the society.

There are, however, two cases when a rapist may be punished with a Hadd punishment:

1. If somehow, four adult male witnesses happened to see the rape or for every male witness two female witnesses saw the rape.

2. If the rapist confesses on his free will and he has been given three opportunities to recant his confession when the consequences of his confessions were fully explained to him.

In these two cases, the rapist is punished with the Hadd punishment which is:

a. If rapist is unmarried, he is beaten with 80 leashes in a public place.

b. If rapist is married, then he is stonned to death in a public place.

If rape was proven without these two conditions, then the degree of punishment should be less severe than Hadud punishment as described in a and b.

I agree with Subedar (interact 1) when he says ``it is rare rather extremely rare that a crime like gang-rape is condoned in Pak army. Even rarer still is for it to be encouraged or pardoned. Misdemeanour of this enormity simply doesn’t go unpunished - severely.`` As someone has already pointed out, the Tando Bhawal case in which Captain Jameel was sentenced to death and eventually hanged speaks for the Army which is not willing to get its name tarnished by the doings of some Captain or Major. However, I partially disagree when he says that the reasn why the Captain is still not facing a court martial is because he is either the son or son-in-law of a serving three or four star. Sons and sons-in-laws of 3 or 4 star rarely get posted to DSG(Defence Services Guards), a posting that is virtually the bottom in merit. Secondly even if they do get posted to DSG, it is not at a place like Sui. It would be more like Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi etc. Unlike Tando Bhawal when not only the Captain was tried by court martial, the General Officer Commanding was also removed from command and consigned to an insignificant post in GHQ. The Army made it a point to bring out its in-built system of accountability in the media with front page stories. In this particular case the Army remains tight lipped. One reason could be that the Army does not want to bactrack on its version, something they had to do in Tando Bhawal case. With the accused officer coming forward voluntarily for DNA test, the case takes an intersting turn. A newspaper report today says that three used condoms were recovered from the site. Interesting, a rapist using condoms.

one would like to propose a surgical cure for this crime committed by -- this sorry excuse for a man -- a rapist soldier -- belonging to a Constitution-rapist Army...

...the victim being a physician...

the good lady doctor should be allowed to perform Orchiectomy -- on Capitane Criminale -- without anesthesia -- under full septic conditions -- with a dull kitchen cleaver....on a bath room floor -- to relieve mr. naamurd captain -- of the pair of miseries -- hanging between his legs......anyway

Tahmed, There could be a twist if the hadood is applied as there with be no material witness, and I am not clear how forensic evidence would be applied under Islamic Laws. So lets wait and see. A queer application is that under the HADD, alcohol is punishable but not heroin.
Cheerios

Hi

I think they should be hung to death
All are adults and they know what is right and whats wrong
Still being a human if one cant judge on these issues its a shame on their part

Pls hang them thats the only solution

I think there is hope that justice will be done. After all, they did hang the army major as ijaz gul points out. Also they hanged the baluch landlord and a couple of others who gang raped the peasant woman last year. But lets keep our fingers crossed and hope that the public outcry continues.

It is interesting that the famous Hadood Laws that have been rightly ridiculed (given their absurd requirement of 4 male witnesses to a rape) are generally ignored in the judicial system. It is Musharaff`s disgrace that despite his military dictatorship he refuses to abolish those laws - that were introduced by another military dictator. Clearly they serve the purpose of intimidating people, which is the ultimate basis for all dictatorships.

#1 by subedar on February 14, 2005 0:30am PT


It is rare rather extremely rare that a crime like gang-rape is condoned in Pak army. Even rarer still is for it to be encouraged or pardoned. Misdemeanour of this enormity simply doesn’t go unpunished - severely.


How many people were punished severely for the rapes in Bangladesh?

I feel that the media should have acted with responsibility and not senationalised the incident.

It was not very long ago that a Major of the Army was hanged to death, when he organised the killing of some innocent people, on personal grounds in Hyderabad. So, after the DNA testing, if Hammad and Co are found guilty, I am sure they will be court martialled and punished severely.

So far there is no empirical evidence available. What ever is available is circumstantial and has to be supported with forensic science. So let us avoid making judgements, and make political capital out of it.

Cheerios

Its sad what has happened.

To an outsider like me it seems that if you are not from the Army, a Mullah or a Fedual Lord, one has to just hope that you dont get victimized.

`Officer under investigation`: Lady doctor assault case
By Arshad Sharif
http://www.dawn.com/2005/02/14/nat7.htm

ISLAMABAD, Feb 13: The Director-General of the Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR), Maj-Gen Shaukat Sultan, said on Sunday an army captain accused of criminal assault on a lady doctor in the Sui PPL hospital was ``under investigation``.

In response to question, Gen Sultan did not confirm or deny if Captain Hammad had been taken into ``custody`` or ``arrested``. He said the investigations into the case were made by a Balochistan High Court judge and the officer was ``under investigation``.

Asked if the judge advocate-general (JAG) of the Pakistan Army was conducting investigations, the military spokesperson stuck to his earlier answer that the officer was under investigation by a BHC judge.

Military officials said the movement of the accused officer had been restricted. To arrest or take an officer into custody, a charge sheet has to be given to the accused and it has not been done so far in the case of Captain Hammad, said an official.

However, Captain Hammad was cooperating in the investigations being conducted by a BHC judge, the official said. In a related development, Pakistan Muslim Leauge (Nawaz) information secretary Siddiqul Farooq alleged that the accused captain is son of a serving general of the Pakistan Army.

Asked about the name of the general, the Pakistan Muslim Leauge (Nawaz) spokesperson said he would divulge the name if the army authorities contradicted him that Capt Hammad was not the son of a general.

Earlier on Thursday, the combined opposition had staged a token walkout from the Senate against what it said was a partial report on the Sui assault case by the Senate standing committee on petroleum and natural resources.

The report, titled ``Senate Standing Committee on petroleum and natural resources on the recent incident which occurred at Sui gas field with special reference to version of PPL``, was placed before the Senate prompting opposition senators to question the omission of allegations of criminal assault against the army official.

BNP Senator Sanaullah Baloch alleged that irrespective of the fact that Captain Hammad was involved in the incident or not, Pakistan Army as an institution was using different means to protect him.

He said many national leaders had been put behind bars on mere allegations while an army captain was being protected. The report had observed: ``The PPL management at site was not only incapable but was also misdirected in handling the issue.``

Putting Pakistan on Fire

Let me tell an un-biased truth on the basis of empirical evidence and long personal experience.

It is rare rather extremely rare that a crime like gang-rape is condoned in Pak army. Even rarer still is for it to be encouraged or pardoned. Misdemeanour of this enormity simply doesn’t go unpunished - severely.

Sans celestial reasons, it is totally impossible that an ordinary captain would have shielded in this manner by the army whatever the merit of case might have been. In normal circumstances, a mere accusation would have been more than enough for the top brass to make the rascal weep for the rest of his life. I would rather claim that it is not probable that in analogous circumstances the army would have taken long to take even a brigadier - without extra-ordinary contacts at the top - to task let alone a petty captain.

Taking the pretty junior rank in account, ruling out any reasonable possibility of the captain sitting atop highly confidential information with devastating consequences for the upper strata if revealed, the only explanation left is that this abominable captain is a three-to-four star beta. To put it in colloquial language: for getting your Miranda rights read out on national TV, unprecedented VVIP treatment one must be a son of some senior general, preferably a serving one, and son-in-law of yet another three to four-star officer.

This implies the proud father and the worthy father-in-law working in concert blocking all punitive steps against their evil sapoot and pathetically deflecting the ever-increasing demands for justice. And to save the four-star family in question, the top command is forced to put the entire country on fire.

You know, in normal conditions, despite umpteen shortcomings of the generals, it is highly unlikely that they would have jeopardized the very existence of Pakistan as a nation state and with that their own lucrative fiscal interests. Our generals can be anything but not poor businessmen - by any standard.

I mean, if not patriotism, it is a question of self-interest and self-preservation for them to sort this nasty mess out at the earliest. In the absence of some very compelling reasons generals would have not allowed a captain to further sully the already badly battered image of their institution.

Inconceivable then that not even a single general have thus far resisted the mishandling of the gory incident. So we are stuck for the time being with the disgrace of Sui, which will forever be a stain on the history of Pakistan, like the East Pakistan tragedy, referendums and accountability drives.

At some point the whole shameful tale of this exercise in extreme human degradation must be told. The true face of the main accused, his family lineage and the real reasons behind this massive cover-up must be exposed - NOW.

Hence, I would request all reporters, journalists and readers to dig out the exact bio-data of this captain and make it public. It would be a true jihad fi sabilillah. Anyone who knows something about him and his family must come forward and share it with the nation. If wrong, this theory ought to be refuted by the quarters concerned.

Allah Hafiz