Why We Need Islamization of Science

Re: # 515

That Jinnah`s ultimate objective rested on Congress rejecting partition and coming to a middle of the road agreement on the basis of provincial grouping with parity at the center.

Re: # 511

Dear Shishpa..

If you were to read H M Seervai`s book (Partition of India, Legend and Reality) you would see that Jinnah never changed his colors.

Re: # 521

PS: Had you read something of Jinnah... you would know that such a statement was not even possible... but its ok... don`t take my advice... don`t read... keep distorting history.

Re: # 517

As informed earlier... Jinnah had not made any such comments.

It was Mohammed Ali of the Ali Brothers... the erstwhile leader and Gandhi ally... who in 1924 was disillusioned by Gandhi for breaking away from the KM.

Harish Hyd....

Please do read the response... above.

Mohammed Ali of the Ali Brothers is not the same as Jinnah... just fyi.

Infact Mohammed Ali of the Ali Brothers tried to beat up Jinnah in 1921 ... for not calling Gandhi ``Mahatma`` ... so here is another irony... the chap is yours ... the kind Gandhi brought into forefront of the politics instead of Jinnah.

Re: # 516

This quote is by (Maulana) Muhammad Ali, of the Ali Brothers, who is revered as a great leader of Independence movement... the person Gandhi had preferred over Jinnah. Jinnah never said anything of the sort. This is the problem with people like you ... not reading enough before you speak.

Time to update your information ... and grow up.

Where can this happen but in India?

A Muslim woman`s Hindu temple in Varanasi

Excerpts:

``Noor Fatima, who laid the foundation for the Shiva Temple, claimed that Shiva had visited her in her dream, prompting her to build the temple. Although Fatima`s faith strictly prohibits idol worship, she decided to build the temple out of respect and tolerance for Hinduism.``

``A lawyer by profession, Fatima claims she has been meeting Lord Shiva of and on in her in dreams for the past six years.``

````I got the inspiration to built this temple in a dream. When I got the idea I had only five thousand rupees with me. But I managed to complete it. Everyone around helped me,`` she said.``

Re: # 156

Further, this was in 1924, way before 1937 which was when you claim he became the spokesman for Muslims.

# various by Mantolives


Manto,

While I really appreciate you belief in Jinnah’s ideals (too bad there aren’t too many takers for Mahatma Gandhi’s ideas these days in India), calling him secular is a colossal injustice to those who suffered as a result of the partition. For wasn’t he the man who said in a speech at Aligarh in 1924, “However pure Mr. Gandhi`s character may be, he must appear to me from the point of view of religion, inferior to any Musalman, even though he be without character.” In another meeting held at Aminabad Park in Lucknow, Mohammed Ali endorsed his previous statement without any hesitation: “Yes, according to my religion and creed, I do hold an adulterous and a fallen Musalman to be better than Mr. Gandhi” (Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches, Vol. 8. p. 302).

Now how can a man who blatantly believed in such prejudices ever want a secular nation? Even if we go by your claim that he rallied Muslims on the basis of Islam to instill a sense of Muslim nationalism, do you seriously believe he could, or expect Pakistanis to treat non-Muslims in Pakistan in a just manner given his own prejudices?

Thanks.

Mantolives #504
However I am going beyond it and suggesting that Seervai and Ayesha Jalal were right.
Can you please elaborate on what you mean by that?

re:#474 by parthaab
Thanks for your post.
There is no dearth of religious nut cases claiming that their own religion is superior. Since science is advancing fast, some would like to believe that the truths that are being unravelled by modern science were known to these religions already. Hence the efforts to find parallels in their own religious or old texts that would indicate that they were advanced in the past. In this case, Indians are not lagging behind! Read this article where someone is suggesting that all secrets of the world are hidden in the ancient sanskrit texts (just like the Da Vinci Code) and one has only to translate these texts!
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=417689
(A lot has been said of the recent bestseller the Da Vinci Code and what it’s implications are for Christianity. However, did you know that India has it’s own little known about and little talked about ‘code’ and that whoever cracks this code will not only change the future of the planet but will go onto rule it!

This article discusses the following:

1. The Vimanas, space craft and extraordinary weapons referred to in the Indian epics.


2. … AND it’s all true – review the evidence for yourself!


3. Lost fountain of knowledge
- the Indian Emperor Ashoka and the ``Secret Society of the Nine Unknown Men``


4. Talpade:
- The story of the Indian Sanskrit Scholar who built and flew a mercury engine aircraft in 1895 (8 years before the Wright Brothers). He built this aircraft from specs in Sanskrit manuscripts thousands of years old.


5. Who is benefiting from this knowledge today?
- So many have already benefited from these texts while the Indians themselves ignore the knowledge which is right under their nose!


6. Breaking the code.
- Whoever can bring together a multidisciplinary team comprising scientists, philosophers and Sanskrit scholars could unlock the knowledge locked away in these documents and change the future of the world.

I am sure you will agree that the facts discussed in this article are very thought provoking. All comments appreciated.

1. Vimanas, Space craft and extraordinary weapons referred to in the Indian epics

Ancient Indian texts on Vimanas are so numerous it would take several books to relate what they have to say.

The Ramayana describes a Vimana as a double-deck, circular (cylindrical) aircraft with portholes and a dome. It flew with the speed of the wind and gave forth a melodious sound (a humming noise?).

Sanskrit texts are filled with references to Gods who fought battles in the sky using Vimanas equipped with weapons as deadly as any we can deploy in these more enlightened times. For example, there is a passage in the Ramayana which reads: The Puspaka car that resembles the Sun and belongs to my brother was brought by the powerful Ravan; that aerial and excellent car going everywhere at will.... that car resembling a bright cloud in the sky.

``.. and the King [Rama] got in, and the excellent car at the command of the Raghira, rose up into the higher atmosphere.``

In the Mahabharatra, Asura Maya had a Vimana measuring twelve cubits in circumference, with four strong wheels.

The Ramayana, does have a highly detailed story in it of a trip to the moon in a Vihmana (or ``Astra``), and in fact details a battle on the moon with an ``Asvin`` airship. This is a small bit of evidence of anti-gravity and aerospace technology used by Indians.

The Mahabhrata records the use of other deadly weapons. `Indra`s Dart` operated via a circular `reflector`. When switched on, it produced a `shaft of light` which, when focused on any target, immediately `consumed it with its power`.

In one particular exchange, Krishna, is pursuing his enemy, Salva, in the sky, when Salva`s Vimana, the Saubha is made invisible in some way. Undeterred, Krishna immediately fires off a special weapon: `I quickly laid on an arrow, which killed by seeking out sound`.

Many other terrible weapons are described, quite matter of factly, in the Mahabharata, but the most fearsome of all is the one used against the Vrishis.

The narrative records:

Gurkha flying in his swift and powerful Vimana hurled against the three cities of the Vrishis and Andhakas a single projectile charged with all the power of the Universe. An incandescent column of smoke and fire, as brilliant as ten thousands suns, rose in all its splendor. It was the unknown weapon, the Iron Thunderbolt, a gigantic messenger of death which reduced to ashesthe entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas.

The after-affects of this Iron Thunderbolt have an ominously recognizable ring. Apparently, those killed by it were so burnt that their corpses were unidentifiable. The survivors fared little better, as it caused their hair and nails to fall out.

2. … And its all true!!!

There are Sanskrit documents which describe how to build a Vimana!

In the Sanskrit Samarangana Sutradhara, it is written: Strong and durable must the body of the Vihmana be made, like a great flying bird of light material. Inside one must put the mercury engine with its iron heating apparatus underneath. By means of the power latent in the mercury which sets the driving whirlwind in motion, a man sitting inside may travel a great distance in the sky. The movements of the Vimana are such that it can vertically ascend, vertically descend, move slanting forwards and backwards. With the help of the machines human beings can fly in the air and heavenly beings can come down to earth.

The ancient Indians wrote entire flight manuals on the control of the various types of Vimanas, many of which are still in existence, and some have even been translated into English.

The Samara Sutradhara is a scientific treatise dealing with every possible angle of air travel in a Vimana. There are 230 stanzas dealing with the construction, take-off, cruising for thousand of miles, normal and forced landings, and even possible collisions with birds. In 1875, the Vaimanika Sastra, a fourth century B.C. text written by Bharadvajy the Wise, using even older texts as his source, was rediscovered in a temple in India.

It dealt with the operation of Vimanas and included information on the steering, precautions for long flights, protection of the airships from storms and lightning and how to switch the drive to ``solar energy`` from a free energy source which sounds like ``anti-gravity.`` The Vaimanika Sastra (or Vymaanika-Shaastra) has eight chapters with diagrams, describing three types of aircraft, including apparatuses that could neither catch on fire nor break. It also mentions 31 essential parts of these vehicles and 16 materials from which they are constructed, which absorb light and heat; for which reason they were considered suitable for the construction of Vimanas.

This document has been translated into English and is available by writing the publisher: VYMAANIDASHAASTRA AERONAUTICS by Maharishi Bharadwaaja, translated into English and edited, printed and published by Mr. G. R.Josyer, Mysore, India, 1979. Mr. Josyer is the director of the International Academy of Sanskrit Investigation, located in Mysore. There seems to be no doubt that Vimanas were powered by some sort of ``anti-gravity.`` Vimanas took off vertically, and were capable of hovering in the sky, like a modern helicopter or dirigible. Bharadvajy the Wise refers to no less than seventy authorities and 10 experts of air travel in antiquity! (These sources are now lost!)

Vimanas were kept in a Vimana Griha, a kind of hanger, and were sometimes said to be propelled by a yellowish-white liquid, and sometimes by some sort of mercury compound, though writers seem confused in this matter. It is most likely that the later writers on Vimanas, wrote as observers and from earlier texts, and were understandably confused on the principle of their propulsion. The ``yellowish- white liquid`` sounds suspiciously like gasoline, and perhaps Vimanas had a number of different propulsion sources, including combustion engines and even ``pulse-jet`` engines. There are so many such texts and most of them have not even been translated into English yet.

It is evident that ancient Indians flew around in these vehicles, all over Asia, and even, apparently, to South America. Writing found at Mohenjodaro (now in Pakistan) has also been found in one other place in the world: Easter Island! Was Easter Island an ancient Indian air base?

Nuclear war 8,000 years ago

A heavy layer of radioactive ash in Rajasthan, India, covers a three-square mile area, ten miles west of Jodhpur. Scientists are investigating the site, where a housing development was being built.

For some time it has been established that there is a very high rate of birth defects and cancer in the area under construction. The levels of radiation there have registered so high on investigators` gauges that the Indian government has now cordoned off the region. Scientists have unearthed an ancient city where evidence shows an atomic blast dating back thousands of years, from 8,000 to 12,000 years, destroyed most of the buildings and probably a half-million people. One researcher estimates that the nuclear bomb used was about the size of the ones dropped on Japan in 1945.

The Mahabharata clearly describes a catastrophic blast that rocked the continent.

Archeologist Francis Taylor says that etchings in some nearby temples he has managed to translate suggest that they prayed to be spared from the great light that was coming to lay ruin to the city. (Construction has halted while the site is under investigation.)

3. Lost fountain of knowledge

The Indian Emperor Ashoka started a ``Secret Society of the Nine Unknown Men``: great Indian scientists who were supposed to catalogue the many sciences. Ashoka kept their work secret because he was afraid that the advanced science catalogued by these men, culled from ancient Indian sources, would be used for the evil purpose of war, which Ashoka was strongly against, having been converted to Buddhism after defeating a rival army in a bloody battle. The ``Nine Unknown Men`` wrote a total of nine books, presumably one each. One of these books was titled ``The Secrets of Gravitation!`` This book, known to historians, but not actually seen by them dealt chiefly with ``gravity control.`` It is presumably still around somewhere, kept in a secret library in India, Tibet or elsewhere. One can certainly understand Ashoka`s reasoning for wanting to keep such knowledge a secret.

Ashoka was also aware of devastating wars using such advanced vehicles and other ``futuristic weapons`` that had destroyed the ancient Indian ``Rama Empire`` several thousand years before.

Unknown alloys have been revealed in the ancient palm leaf manuscripts. The writer and Sanskrit scholar Subramanyam Iyer has spent many years of his life deciphering old collections of palm leaves found in the villages of his native Karnataka in southern India.

One of the palm leaf manuscripts they intend to decipher is the Amsu Bodhini, which, according to an anonymous text of 1931, contains information about the planets; the different kinds of light, heat, color, and electromagnetic fields; the methods used to construct machines capable of attracting solar rays and, in turn, of analysing and separating their energy components; the possibility of conversing with people in remote places and sending messages by cable; and the manufacture of machines to transport people to other planets!

4. Talpade – The Indian Sanskrit scholar who built and flew a mercury engine aircraft in 1895, 8 years before the Wright brothers!

Shivkur Bapuji Talpade, flew an unmanned aircraft, eight years before the Wright brothers demonstrated on December 17th 1903 that it was possible for a ‘manned heavier than air machine to fly’. But, in 1895, eight years earlier, the Sanskrit scholar Shivkar Bapuji Talpade had designed a basic aircraft called Marutsakthi (meaning Power of Air) based on Vedic technology documented in ancient Sanskrit manuscripts. His demonstration flight took place before a large audience in the Chowpathy beach of Bombay. The importance of the Wright brothers lies in the fact, that it was a manned flight for a distance of 120 feet and Orville Wright became the first man to fly. But Talpade’s unmanned aircraft flew to a height of 1500 feet before crashing down and the historian Evan Koshtka, has described Talpade as the ‘first creator of an aircraft’.

This historic day in 1895 (unfortunately the actual date is not mentioned in the Kesari newspaper of Pune which covered the event) was witnessed by the famous Indian judge/ nationalist/ Mahadeva Govin-da Ranade and H H Sayaji Rao Gaekwad.

It is important to note that Talpade was no scientist, just a sanskrit scholar who had built his aircraft entirely from the rich treasury of India’s Vedas.

Shivkar Bapuji Talpade was born in 1864 in the locality of Chirabazar at Dukkarwadi in Bombay. He was a scholar of Sanskrit and from his young age was attracted by the Vaimanika Sastra (Aeronautical Science) expounded by the great Indian sage Maharishi Bhardwaja.

Surprisingly according to the bi-monthly Ancient Skies published in USA, the aircraft engines being developed for future use by NASA also uses mercury bombardment units powered by Solar cells! Interestingly, the impulse is generated in seven stages. The mercury propellant is first vapourised fed into the thruster discharge chamber ionised converted into plasma by a combination with electrons broke down electrically and then accelerated through small openings in a screen to pass out of the engine at velocities between 1200 to 3000 kilometres per minute! But so far NASA has been able to produce an experimental basis only a one pound of thrust by its scientists a power derivation virtually useless. But over 100 years ago Talpade was able to use his knowledge of Vaimanika Shastra to produce sufficient thrust to lift his aircraft 1500 feet into the air!

Maharaja Sayaji Rao Gaekwad of Baroda was a great supporter of the Sciences in India, and was willing to help Talpade with funds to build his aircraft and the mercury engines.

But the success of an Indian scientist was not liked by the Imperial rulers. Warned by the British Government the Maharaja of Baroda stopped helping Talpade.

Talpade passed away in 1916 unhonoured, in his own country. It is said that the remains of the Marutsakthi (the aircraft Tapade built) were ‘sold’ to a British company by Talpade’s relatives.

5. Who is benefiting from this knowledge today?

Robert Oppenheimer inventor of the atom bomb was well known for studying ancient Indian texts and perhaps drew more than inspiration from them. Just before the first Atom Bom test, Oppenheimer famously quoted from the Gita saying, ‘I have become Death, Destroyer of Worlds``.

It is interesting to note, that the Nazis developed the first practical pulse-jet engines for their V-8 rocket ``buzz bombs.`` Hitler and the Nazi staff were exceptionally interested in ancient India and Tibet and sent expeditions to both these places yearly, starting in the 30`s, in order to gather esoteric evidence that they did so, and perhaps it was from these people that the Nazis gained some of their scientific information!

Only a few years ago, the Chinese discovered some sanskrit documents in Lhasa, Tibet and sent them to the University of Chandrigarh to be translated. Dr. Ruth Reyna of the University said recently that the documents contain directions for building interstellar spaceships! Their method of propulsion, she said, was ``anti- gravitational`` and was based upon a system analogous to that of ``laghima,`` the unknown power of the ego existing in man`s physiological makeup, ``a centrifugal force strong enough to counteract all gravitational pull.`` According to Hindu Yogis, it is this ``laghima`` which enables a person to levitate.

Dr. Reyna said that on board these machines, which were called ``Astras`` by the text, the ancient Indians could have sent a detachment of men onto any planet, according to the document, which is thought to be thousands of years old. The manuscripts were also said to reveal the secret of ``antima``; ``the cap of invisibility`` and ``garima``; ``how to become as heavy as a mountain of lead.`` Naturally, Indian scientists did not take the texts very seriously, but then became more positive about the value of them when the Chinese announced that they were including certain parts of the data for study in their space program! This was one of the first instances of a government admitting to be researching anti-gravity.

6. Cracking the code

There is a wealth of knowledge locked away in Sanskrit manuscripts, 80% of which have not even been translated yet. Talpade managed to successfully fly an aircraft in 1895 using the knowledge in these Sanskrit documents. Remember, he was not a scientist, just a Sanskrit scholar. Just imagine what could be achieved if experts in science, Sanskrit and philosophy get together to crack the code! Whoever cracks it will change the future of the world and will probably dominate it.

Ranjan Bhattacharya )
Pity few can read sanskrit now-a-days!
Sridhar

Romair,

Similarities sounded ok to me … based on a quick glance. Not much to add there.

- ”Ahmedis believe they are Muslims, despite their belief in Mirza Ahmad”.

Belief in a prophets after revelation of Quran is fully consistent with message of Quran. There is absolutely nothing in Quran that even remotely suggests end to prophethood. There is no contradiction between Quran and accepting prophets as they appear.

Sometime ago, when you asked, I provided support from Quran on truthfulness of Mirza Sahib. You then started discussing the need for much research to understand Quran’s position on prophethood etc. Holy mother of Christ … it’s been 1400 years!!! When will this research get done? And who will do it? That was a lame argument you presented when you failed to negate validity of my argument. You current statement is an extension of your earlier argument.

OK, fine, if you still stick by your statement, here’s one that makes the point: Romair, despite fasting in Ramadan, considers himself a Muslim. Fair enough?

- “I am against people declaring themselves Prophets.” What kind of a lame statement is this??? You defend this by further stating that … “there are enough prophets as it is”. What is the basis of your opinion? Such a statement would have been valid when Jesus, Noah, Lot showed up also.

How about if one says … there are too many divine books as it is … and therefore I am against considering Quran as a divine book. Such reasoning makes no arguments … only absurd statements, based on fanciful notions.

sattar2 #510: You did not comment on the similarities I showed between our two replies. You seemed to completely disregard those. If my views are absurd, then are the similarities absurd also. I would be interested in your comments on those similarities.......

``”Ahmedis believe they are Muslims, despite their belief in Mirza Ahmad”

Yes. This is a fact. Is it not? I am not making a value judgement on Ahmedis, which should be completely clear from the part of my reply on which you did not offer any comments. I am not saying they are non-Muslims. I am just stating a fact, that Ahmedis consider themselves Muslims, even though they have a distinct difference in belief, with the rest of the Muslims on the issue of Mirza Ahmad. Is this not a fact?

``“I am against people declaring themselves Prophets.”

Yes. I am against this. Again this is my personal belief. I think there are enough prophets as it is. This is the personal belief of everyone who doesn`t consider Mirza Ahmad a prophet. Otherwise they would consider him one. I am openly and honestly stating it. Once again, I am not making a value judgement on you. I am just pointing out my own belief. Which I have a right to do. Just like you have a right to state your own......

I am not saying your belief of considering Mirza Ahmad a prophet is absurd, yet you are calling my opinions absurd......You are passing a judgement on my opinions, while I am not passing a judgement on yours.........Perhaps because you are getting overly defensive, and assuming that I am attacking your beliefs.........

In essence you are calling my opinions absurd, even though I belong to the minority (most likely) who is actually arguing in the favor of Ahmedis, based on my comment on which you did not reply. I have spent a better time of my interacts arguing with people that the Quran does not define a mechanism for declaring anyone a non-Muslim...........Yet you consider that absurd.........

Re: # 506

Manto,

So Mr. Jinnah changed colour after 1937 and he wanted to change colour back
after August 1947! Not only him, he wanted and expected all his followers who were
following him because they liked his colour to change colour as well.
How was that possible?
Me as a lay person can see that would not be possible. How could a person
of Mr. Jinnah caliber and stature not see and know?

Romair,

The issue is not whether you accept Mirza Sahib as a prophet or not. The issue is your absurd comments on Ahmadi views.

- ”Ahmedis believe they are Muslims, despite their belief in Mirza Ahmad”. As I have stated, belief in Mirza Sahib as a prophet of Allah in no way contradicts Islam. Rather, it is fully consistent with the message of Quran.

- “I am against people declaring themselves Prophets.” Apply this criterion to various prophets mentioned in Quran, and you’ll discover absurdity of your argument.

#508 by Mantolives on March 8, 2005 8:10am PT

I`ll leave out the swallow/summer cliche...The ``dalits`` in question can always convert to sunni Islam and move to Pakistan...Of course, they`ll HAVE to convert to sunni Islam if they want to go to Pakiland....capt clueless has shown how Pakistan is an Islamic and not secular state...