India Through Pakistani Eyes

Re: # 476

``100`s and 100`s of border enclaves have not been properly demarcated, and hence Bangladesh has to rely on India`s Tingha Corridor to get to some of it`s lands. ``

An area of 6.5km has not been demarcated yet, and two joint boundary working groups have been set up to complete the boundary demarcation. Such things don`t happen overnight.

We may mention here that water conflicts between riparian countries is nothing new. In fact, one of the important agreement reached at the Congress of Vienna in 1815 was a consensus on principles of navigational use of the Rhine. USA and Mexico entered into sharing of the Rio Grande in 1908.
But being at the lowermost reaches of the big river basins Bangla has no control over situation upstream. It only serves as the conduit of flood waters, sometimes leading to disastrous consequences. The only pre-requisite for problems of water however is neighbourly goodwill. This has to be earned. When you have BNP and Jamaatis coming to power on an anti-India plank, I don`t think India will be that generous. India maintains good relations with the Gulf countries for its energy needs, the day they start abusing them we will also expect the same reaction.

When a 1977 agreement giving Bangladesh two-thirds of the Ganges water expired 11 years later, the country`s share was reduced to one-third. India diverted the additional water to Calcutta to prevent that commercially vital port on a Ganges tributary from clogging with silt.

While the dam solved Calcutta`s problems, it created new ones for Bangladesh. The drastically reduced water flow created ecological problems and turned parts of Bangladesh into a wasteland.

Under one accord in 1996, the two countries will alternately receive a lopsided share of the shrunken Ganges from mid-March to May -- the driest period -- which will provide enough water to flush the port of Calcutta every 10 days.

This new treaty -- a symbol of renewed trust and friendship between India and Bangladesh -- comes on the 25th anniversary of the 1971 war in Pakistan that led to the birth of Bangladesh.

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``Sri Lanka always has in majority cases and naturally should remain cautious of India. OVer 65 million tamils live in India and if things were to go wrong, those Tamils could push the government for certain acitons which the sri lankan government would be agaisnt. ``

Things were to go wrong? What do you mean by that? India has repeatedly said no to a separate Tamil state, even though indian tamil are sympathetic towards sri lankan tamil.

``Take a look at the 1987 Indian troop intervention. Even though it was done with the consent of the government, Sri LAnka always does and continues to look at India with suspision (naturally). ``
IPKF went to save the beleagured sri lanka. india and Rajiv has accordingly paid price for that. It was the Sri Lanka gov. which on the insistence of LTTE, kicked IPKF out.
Not only that, India prevented coup in Maldives too.

Regarding ASEAN, even India has signed the security pact. Each country is free to do so as long as all the original members agree.

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``3. The India Doctrine ``

the troubles in South Asia, its endemic tensions, mutual distrust, and occasional hostilities are largely considered products of the contradictions of India`s security perception with that of the rest of the countries of the area. India`s neighbours perceive threats to their security coming primarily from India whereas India considers neighbours as an integral part of its own security system. The pre-eminence of India in the South Asian power configuration given its geography, demography, economics, and ecology is something about which neither India nor its neighbours can do nothing but accept. But the image of India in South Asia is that of a power that demands habitual obedience from its neighbours. According to the strategic doctrine of India drawn from that of British India, the country`s defence perimeter is given not by the boundaries of India but by the outer boundaries of its immediate neighbours. Thus, the main theme of this doctrine is that South Asia is to be regarded as an Indian backyard. No wonder then, that there have always been certain psychological misgivings on the part of the smaller states about their all-powerful neighbour India.

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``Oh, and lets not forget the dams buddy. India and Pakistan both signed the Indus Water Treaty of 1960. ``

This is no different than the Kalabagh dam situation. There are fights between indian states too regarding the share of water.

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``And, the Question of India`s illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir will come. But when it resurfaces after some time, Pakistan will be much more powerful than it is today. ``

So do you think india will remain static till then.

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``Tell me, One who comes from the `Land of Equals` flowing blessed with a `Vibrant` democracy and strong in secular traditions, why is it that your country have over 10 different liberation movements taking place all over?``

Thats not your concern. Its our internal issue. We will deal with it. I don`t care whether a pakistani thinks india is `Land of Equals` or/and ```Vibrant` democracy and strong in secular traditions``. It is no significance to me.

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``And, did you read my two posts with your eyes closed? I talked about a multitude of improvements, not just English. ``

improvements? with regard to what?

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#478 by haroonellahi
//....It is the duty of every Pakistani to make sure that Pakistan`s nuclear capibility is never comprismised upon...//

Too late. Paki nukes have already been compromised - Uncle Sam has the keys now. Not long ago, Mushy used to thunder about nuking India every other week. That used to be a sight to behold - his puny chest puffed up, his eyes burning, looking like a harrased middle-aged office-clerk. But not any more - you don`t hear no peep from Mushy, the brave warrior.

Anyhoo - It`s amusing to see pakis quaking in their boots and p!ssing their pants over ``Indian aggression to dismember any more provinces from Pakistan``...... It`s so funny ....and so pathetic.

Get this from me - those days were gone. Indira gandhi was a b!tch but she had b@lls and she neutered your generals like they do to street dogs to keep them in control. But unlike the street dogs, paki generals grew back their b@lls because those who came after Indira Gandhi were not men enough to whip paki generals back into their cages.

And we still don`t have leaders who are men enough to keep paki generals in line. All we have are commies and clowns. So don`t fear - there will not be another ``india aggression`` any time soon.

``And, the Question of India`s illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir will come. But when it resurfaces after some time, Pakistan will be much more powerful than it is today.``

err...perhaps by that time , India will be much more powerful than it is today. Which is natural since Indian economy - already 11 times the size of Pakistan`s economy , grows at a rate of 7-8%..which is fairly quick...just a shade slower than China...

Regarding the Kashmir front , apart from more impotent screams of ``injustice`` from Haroon Ellahi , not much else can be expected to happen. India will continue to proudly `illegally` occupy poor lil` J&K....



``Tell me, One who comes from the `Land of Equals` flowing blessed with a `Vibrant` democracy and strong in secular traditions, why is it that your country have over 10 different liberation movements taking place all over? Must be those Pakistanis eh? haha.``

Yep. And I am starting the 11th one tomorrow. Free Bangalore from India movement.

Seriously...there have been seccessionist movements in India ever since independence. Most have failed. Even powerful ones like the Sikh seccessionist movement failed and is today a thing of the past.Today far from wanting freedom from India , sikhs basically rule India - dominate India`s polity , bureaucracy as well as the military. Therein lies the strength of the Indian nation. Its democracy and its secular traditions. The number of people willing to die for India and fight for it by far outnumbers those who are opposed to India. The feeling of `Indianness` has never been stronger. The Indian nation never been firmer. Things look good to be honest. Even in Jammu & Kashmir. Now - the muslim Kashmiris may not like India too much. But they have been castrated and rendered impotent. So don`t have a choice but to put up and shut up.

It is the duty of every Pakistani to make sure that Pakistan`s nuclear capibility is never comprismised upon. We should always have the ability to strike multiple nuclear warheads along with fake-proxies at India in the event of Indian aggression. It is the only way to ensure that India does not dismember any more provinces from Pakistan as it did in East Pakistan ( which was agaisnt all contemporary international law standards mind you).

Re: # 451

(If China is not a threat to India then what was 1962?

Pakistan spends a much higher proportion of its GDP on its armed forces and we get lectures on how India is being unreasonable.)

Please study how the conflict errupted. Not because of any expansionist designs of Chinese but because of mishandling of a border dispute. As regards Pakistan`s defence expenditure, I have already said that it is unfortunate that the defence expenditure is way beyond acceptable limit, but also read that it is so because of Indian acquistion of weaponry that India cannot justify on the basis of threat that exists to India. With history of three wars and the recent stand off, Pakistan has little choice.

Netizen,

1.Bangladesh

a. India`s relations with Bangladesh are in very extremely turbulent times due to disputes which have not been solved. India being the upper-riparian state has been choking Bangladesh`s traditional and natural water resources. 100`s and 100`s of border enclaves have not been properly demarcated, and hence Bangladesh has to rely on India`s Tingha Corridor to get to some of it`s lands. OVer 1billion dollar trade deficit hurts Bangladesh like crazy.

2. Sri Lanka

a. Sri Lanka always has in majority cases and naturally should remain cautious of India. OVer 65 million tamils live in India and if things were to go wrong, those Tamils could push the government for certain acitons which the sri lankan government would be agaisnt. To counter this potential threat, It has been trying to demarcate maritime boundaries with India in the Gulf of Mannar and Palk Strait. Also, it supports the creation of a UN-backed Zone of peace in the Indian Ocean so that it may be a bufferer agaisnt potential Indian hegemony/intervention/blah. It has also sought relations with ASEAN in order to become more prominent. Take a look at the 1987 Indian troop intervention. Even though it was done with the consent of the government, Sri LAnka always does and continues to look at India with suspision (naturally).

3. The India Doctrine
a. Essentially, the India Doctrine is a concept which the indians have signed with the Nepalis, Bengalis, and Bhutanese. They are to first consult India and India alone in order to counter security threats rather than allow any other country to intervene. Jesters at the Sun`s Court perhaps?

Oh, and lets not forget the dams buddy. India and Pakistan both signed the Indus Water Treaty of 1960. India’s Baglihar project on the river Chenab, Kishanganga project on River Neelum, Dul-Hasti project on River Chenab, Swalkot Dam on River Chenab, and the Wullar barrage project on River Jhelum, are all causing massive problems between India and Pakistan. Oh, and lets not forget the Farraka dam on the Ganges river and the new `adjustments` which are going to be taking place.

And, did you read my two posts with your eyes closed? I talked about a multitude of improvements, not just English.

And, the Question of India`s illegal occupation of Jammu and Kashmir will come. But when it resurfaces after some time, Pakistan will be much more powerful than it is today.

Tell me, One who comes from the `Land of Equals` flowing blessed with a `Vibrant` democracy and strong in secular traditions, why is it that your country have over 10 different liberation movements taking place all over? Must be those Pakistanis eh? haha.

http://www.afgha.com/?af=article&sid=14412

``On the transportation of Indian goods to Afghanistan, Mr Ikram said it was dependent on the resolution of Kashmir and other issues.``

http://www.afgha.com/?af=article&sid=14469
``Islamabad has refused to allow transportation of Indian goods to Kabul through Wagah border because of Pakistan`s tense relations with India.``

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20031127/punjab1.htm#14
``Pakistani continues to create technical hurdles in getting clearance to 35 Tata trucks donated by the Government of India to Afghanistan in spite of a thaw in Indo-Pak relations.

These trucks, including water tankers and garbage lifters are stranded at the International Border and are awaiting clearance by Pakistani authorities en route Kabul.

According to spokesman of the Tata company, India had offered to provide transport services to beleaguered Afghanistan and had already supplied more than 100 passenger coaches and trucks in the past six months. He said everytime Pakistan would stop these buses during transit on some flimsy ground.

He said the Afghan truck drivers trained to operate these trucks had been waiting to drive them through Pakistan since last Saturday. He was hopeful that Pakistan authorities would allow the consignment of 35 trucks to pass through its territory on way to Afghanistan.``

bong dongs: you need to be less suspicious of motives on chowk - there is nothing at stake here since all these 500 or so posts on this board dont add up to anything in the real world. i presented the entire article for this very reason, and simply said that it was ``another indication of how things are changing``.

#472

the past master of FUD is up trying to muddy waters again. India and Afghanistan have been trying to open up a land route for years now. Guess who keeps sticking out their feet trying to trip up the process.

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``However, Pakistan`s Commerce Secretary Tasneem Noorani was asked about the prospects of Pakistan allowing Indian trade exports to Afghanistan and he said the issue was a political one and had to be dealt with accordingly.``

yup, you guessed right!

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Ordinarily I would have let this go by, but ``Netizen`s`` comments in #428 really disturbed me, its proof that propaganda works.

First it was the gas pipe from iran to pakistan to india, now a possible rail link from afghanistan to pakistan to india. Another indication of how things are changing in the sub-continent.

India-Afghan Rail Link

Amin Arsala, the afghan official mentioned in above article spent his youth in pakistan, is fluent in urdu. Like the pms of india and of pakistan, has professional experience in a major US based organization - used to work a couple of doors away from me many years ago in the US. A far cry from the illiterate taliban who wer kicked out by the US and replaced by a democratic government.

#448 by kardesh on February 24, 2005 8:45pm PT


Why don`t we come to a rational conclusion and put this long useless Indo/Pak feud to rest.


Salim...here`s the deal...Let`s convert the Line of Control into the border and get on with our lives....

don`t India and Pakistan have bigger fish to fry...All this BS about this not being about land, and how it`s about the rights of the people....The PAF is dropping bombs on wana and The Pakistani army knocking heads in Balochistan...

#457 by ballukhan on February 25, 2005 2:01am PT


Despite all these commenteries you can only see the fauzis nodding when Mush proclaims substantial benefits from the Kargil venture....so strong is the common delusion shared amongst these fauzis................


It`s not just fauzis....It`s a vast majority of Pakistanis...It`s group self-delusion..pakistanitis it can be called.....something like group-hysteria, but uniquely Pakistani...It`s like a virus, but all it does is disables all common sense and sense of plausibility among Pakistanis...no colds, no cough, no fever... buckets of chicken noodle soup won`t cure it...it`s a lifelong infliction...

I`ve been asking this question for years now: If Pakistan was winning in Kargil, why did Nawaz Sharif rush to Washington, uninvited and on the 4th of July...Wouldn`t someone not inflicted with pakistanitis expect Vajpayee to rush to Washington begging Clinton to pull India`s chestnuts out of the fire?

Re: # 461

``We need to create large resource pools of people who can effectively communicate in the English language. This will help us in attaining FDI. ``

Not necesarily, you need to improve infrastructure, policies on liberisation, decrease political instability more than improving the number of English speaking persons.

``Only then can we come back to the Question of India`s illegal occupation of Jammu & Kashmir.``

All this improvement and advancement effort is to come back to the Kashmir issue? What a waste of resources and effort. You can still ``Question of India`s illegal occupation of Jammu & Kashmir`` without going through all that pain (infact you have been doing so for the past 15 years).

Re: # 462

``Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are all already manipulated by India greatly. . ``

Can you kindly give examples? Would greatly enhance your credibility. Also, it is not new that smaller countries (in size, population, economy, military power) are more amenable to a bigger country.

``Though the rise of anti-Indianism in the latter state have increasingly made the population of Bangaldesh anti-India. ``
Thats why several of them run to India for economic reasons. This anti-India activity is more a manifestation of anti-hindu from Jamaatis.

``It would suit India to see the dissolution of Pakistan. ``
The reverse is also equally true.

``It would make it much easier for India to coax the potential states to give her most of their natural resources ( It has been trying to get ahold of Bangladesh`s natural gas resources)``

Is anything wrong with trade. I guess you will better eat grass than trade. Thats the reason Pakistan will buy more expensive coal from Australia rather than from India and refuse to sale surplus electricity. wrt Bangladesh gas, it is more domestic politics than economics. It is bangladeshs loss, we can get it from other countries.

``For India, the notion of South Asia comprimising of small `neo-planets` revolving around the Indian Sun is her dream. ``
Expect for Pakistan and to some extent Bangladesh, every other country is somewhat dependent on India (mind you its not because of military power).

I am returning to this board only to share this news item from Canada.

Canada`s Finance Minister has announced a $12.8-billion boost in Defense to - in the words of Globe and Mail - ``attempt to reverse Canada`s lamentable decline as a global actor through renewed intervention in defense and foreign aid.`` [the budget also increased foreign aid]

Re: # 441

I will reply to you over the weekend, quite busy till then ...