India Through Pakistani Eyes

further to my post #463 to Haroon: I meant post #461, not #467 (which of course has not yet been written). :-)

avkrishna #445 you are of course quite right. Chowk is a waste of time in a practical senser, since who cares what a handful of people think one way or another. I just see it as a place to kill some time by thinking aloud, and also enjoy the interaction with the smart, self-respecting types on chowk. (the ones i dont enjoy exchanging posts with, i just try to ignore).

haroonelahi #467 You obviously have maturity way beyond most grown up individuals on this board. Great post!!

``India will never try to take over Pakistan. ```

What I meant by that was that India is not comfortable with the existence of the Pakistani state. By `take over`, I did not intend that India wants Pakistani territory. India never really has been reconciled to the Idea of Pakistan. It would like to see the provinces of Pakistan as the Bhutans of South Asia. Then it would be much easier for India to manipulate the region at large.

Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh are all already manipulated by India greatly. Though the rise of anti-Indianism in the latter state have increasingly made the population of Bangaldesh anti-India.

It would suit India to see the dissolution of Pakistan. It would make it much easier for India to coax the potential states to give her most of their natural resources ( It has been trying to get ahold of Bangladesh`s natural gas resources).

For India, the notion of South Asia comprimising of small `neo-planets` revolving around the Indian Sun is her dream.

Pakistan should be very cautious in all dealings with India.

Pakistan should be wise and should not increase it`s defense budget. Let the Indians get shiny mettalic planes and plastic bombs, as long we have the nuclear strike capability, India will never try to take over Pakistan.

Our money should be diverted into our economy and should be used to uplift the lot of our people! Education should be our primary concern. We need to create large resource pools of people who can effectively communicate in the English language. This will help us in attaining FDI. Also, we need to get our house in order. Only then can we come back to the Question of India`s illegal occupation of Jammu & Kashmir. Only with a well-developed national infrastructure, progressive mindsets in our people, and an extremely vibrant economy will give Pakistan an edge over India.

Also, democracy should be promoted in Pakistan as well. Pres. Musharraf and P.M Shaukat Aziz are taking the country into the right direction. Study the p.m`s micro and macro economic policies, they will help alot of employment to be generated.

Railroads, economy, and education are the three areas where we must stride forward!

There is nothing wrong with a country seeking to enhance its military power commensurate with its economic power. As its economy grows, it is inevitable that there will be a tussle for various reasons between India and other large economies such as that of China, the US, and other emerging economies. India’s industries will need humongous amounts of energy/oil and since much of it comes from the Middle East via sea, only a strong naval force will be able to ensure uninterrupted supplies, since rivals and spoilers are aplenty. A strong navy will also protect India’s trade routes. Also, as India explores the possibility of sourcing gas through overland pipelines that pass through some of the most hostile and unstable territories (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Myanmar, Bangladesh, etc.) on the face of the Earth, it must have a territorial army that can protect them being sabotaged, be it by non-state actors like Jihadis and Al-Qaeda or armies like that of Pakistan and China. As competition for markets and resources becomes fiercer, India is likely to get into conflicts with China in the near future either directly or through its proxy, Pakistan. And as Indian companies invest overseas, a case in point being the oilfields in Sudan and Russia and oil depots in Sri Lanka; it becomes all the more imperative for it to protect its assets there. India will also want to provide a security shield to its allies and trading partners, if not out of noble intentions, to protect its markets/assets there.

As is the case now, in the future, despite a powerful army, India will never dare to attack another country. Heck, despite a legitimate grievance, Indian troops did not cross the LoC during Kargil. Indian politicians are too selfish to allow that, jingoism and braggadocio notwithstanding. A strong military will only serve as an effective deterrent against countries/non-state actors that threaten India’s interests.

Atleast 50% of the posts in this thread by Romair and other Pakistani military `experts` in this thread is about how India is wasting money on defence....

Too bad....but shouldn`t they be complaining about Pakistan which spends thrice as much (as a % of GDP) as India on defence ? I mean - does Romair realise that Pakistan ranks 144 on the human development index ?

For Indians who regret India`s defence expenditure - Hello!! Do you realise that India spends twice as much annually on the salaries and pensions of central government employees ? What about the blank cheque given to the sick PSUs ? Thousands of crore rupees are pumped into sick loss making PSUs with no hope of a return just to keep the millions of PSU workers employed and happy ....

Atleast the guys in the defence department serve a purpose - they keep us freakin` alive and free. What do the guys in the central government - the babus , chaprasis and the stenographers do ?

Just today I read in some website that the leftists supporting the current Indian government want a drastic cut in the defence in the soon to be presented budget - a demand that is completely contradictory to the stand of the defence establishment which want an increase to fund certain crucial purchases...The leftists say `the money saved on defence should ideally be used to generate employment`....meaning , more babus , chaprasis and stenographers...

God damn it - India is so f ucked I sometimes wonder why the f uck should I care in the first place. Oh f uck you India - I had enough. Here`s hoping the Pakis nuke the hell out of you...

Cheers !!

Romair,

India`s defence expenditure should be evaluated on a relative basis such as % of GDP. By that measure, it is relatively small. Of course the absolute numbers are high, but Indian armed forces have a challenging job.

Consider the following issues for the Indian armed forces -
1. It has to defend a billion people over a massive landmass with vast frontiers and coastline
2. It has to defend against two hostile nuclear neighbors and potentially fight two simultaneous wars
3. It has to fight against a variety of insurgent groups, not just in Kashmir but in the entire North-east (Assam, Nagaland, Mizoram etc), which is a huge area in itself. Insurgents keep pouring in from Burma, Bangladesh and until recently Pakistan. Till the nineties, it had to fight a fierce insurgency in Punjab as well.
4. It has to defend India against potential destabilization from jihadi groups that operated in Afghanistan and have now relocated to NWFP and Baluchistan. OBL and his cronies are always looking for a safe haven and India is right around the corner. Of course, during the Kashmir jihad, India was on the frontline in the fight against the jihadis.
5. It has a large role within India to provide support to civilian authorities during riots, natural disasters etc.
6. It has to defend India`s trade routes and commercial interests.
7. India has a 5000 year history of external aggression. As recently as 1947, we came out of 1000 years of continous imperial rule. Most invasions on India succeeded due to India`s weak defence.
8. Finally India has to station 700,000 just to keep things under control in Kashmir.

So you can see that it is absurd to compare India`s defence needs with those of Canada or Europe. We live in a much rougher neighborhood, there are too many people and too many problems occuring here. Nevertheless, India spends a much smaller fraction of GDP on defence as compared to Pakistan.

#453 by arjun_m on February 25, 2005 0:08am PT
yahyajamil:

Despite all these commenteries you can only see the fauzis nodding when Mush proclaims substantial benefits from the Kargil venture....so strong is the common delusion shared amongst these fauzis................

Re:Kardesh

Salim, it is a supreme irony that mohajirs, who were the most intense supporters of Pakistan due to their imaginary fear of hindu domination, ended up getting dominated by punjabi muslims instead. In the future, the mohajir community must reinvent itself as the bridge between India and Pakistan. Most of them have relatives in India and need to travel back and forth. They can become ambassadors of peace and goodwill between the two sides. Within Pakistan, they should oppose hatred of India and use their influence with religious organizations to soften their vitriol against India. In particular, they should change the Urdu press which writes absurd jingoistic stuff against India (just check out the nuggets in Friday Times) and poisons the minds of ordinary people who read that junk.

From an economic perspective, mohajirs should strongly champion Indo-Pak trade and business collaboration, as well as making Pakistan the trade route between India and Central Asia. Since they know both sides and have contacts, their pushing of Indo-Pak trade will result in employment opportunities for themselves as well as many muslims in India. Also if India has more trade with Central Asia and other Islamic countries, it will require more Indian muslims and Pakistanis to be involved in order to interface with the Islamic world. Again that means more jobs and financial success for muslims in South Asia.

#416 by tahmed32

[And that is why i reminded you that india got its technology from the soviets as well.]

Nobody, except Pakis have accused India of acquiring nuclear technology from the Soviets while everybody knows AQ Khan stole nuclear technology from Urenco, the company in the Netherlands where he was working. He was also sentenced in absentia for the crime.

As someone said earlier, a lie repeated a thousand times does not become the truth.

#453 by arjun_m

Lt. Gen. Sir William E. Butler`s saying is prophetic in the case of Pakistan.

``The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.``

yahyajamil:


Anatomy of folly: not for robust souls

By Ayaz Amir


India may agonize over Kargil, over the shortcomings and failures of its army when the conflict broke out. (An internal Indian army report, the subject of an extensive story in the Indian magazine, Outlook, is scathing on the subject.) Indians are welcome to soul-searching. That`s not how things are done in Pakistan.

The Pakistani response to failure or folly is refreshingly simple: just forget about the damned thing. Consign it to the drawer of unwelcome memories and throw the key away.

We did this with the `65 war, no one at the top ever publicly admitting that far from India being the aggressor, our actions in Kashmir invited Indian retaliation. Any internal army analysis about how the Ayub command walked into that mess? Not that anyone knows of.

Any admission of atrocities committed in East Pakistan? Any commission set up to investigate the truth? There was the Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report kept under wraps for years and released by the present regime only after portions of it were carried in some Indian papers.

Anyone held to account for those events? You must be kidding. The army, while exercising freedom of expression to the full when it comes to civilians and politicians, jealously guards its own. No room for criticism where army conduct is concerned.

For 20 years the army and its intelligence agencies played baffling games in Afghanistan aimed at keeping Afghanistan forever in Pakistan`s orbit of influence. Acquiring `strategic depth` is what our military geniuses called it.

What were the fruits of that policy? Guns, drugs, religious extremism, a proliferation of religious schools, the rise of mullah power along the western marches, a refugee population that Pakistan could have done without, and, worst of all, a reputation for backing the Taliban and supporting international `jihad`.

Why did the military elite panic when Powell made his famous telephone call after September 11? Because who would have known better than them of the skeletons in our national cupboard? This consciousness of guilt, of being caught on the wrong side of events, was the real lubricant easing Pakistan`s overnight passage from defender of `jihad` to American errand boy in the so-called `war on terror`.

What was the aim of the exercise? What was the army command hoping to achieve? The liberation of Kashmir? Forcing India to the negotiating table? Today as six years ago, the reasons for Kargil remain shrouded in mystery.

Far from achieving anything, Kargil was a piece of military folly which (1) sabotaged the peace process begun by Nawaz Sharif and Atal Behari Vajpayee; (2) painted Pakistan in a bad light by giving international currency to the term ``cross-border terrorism``; and (3) reinforced the status of the Line of Control whose sanctity President Clinton insisted on when Nawaz Sharif said he wanted to come to Washington on July 4, `99.

Why the desperate overture to Clinton? Because Pakistan`s military position in Kargil had become untenable and Nawaz Sharif, with the military`s blessings, looked to Washington to provide a face-saving cover for the withdrawal of Pakistani troops from Kargil. We wanted the Americans to help us pull our chestnuts out of the fire.

Later of course, military apologists got busy trying to spin the story that the army had performed heroically and brilliantly while the civilian government had lost its nerve, implying that an historic opportunity to resolve the Kashmir dispute on our terms was thus lost. Utter rubbish, this was a lame attempt at passing the buck.

#448 by kardesh on February 24, 2005 8:45pm PT
Why don`t we come to a rational conclusion and put this long useless Indo/Pak feud to rest. Cosider the following: `



Salim !! you heart is in the right place!! However, the problem is with these fauzis and their band brigade ( I have always wondered how Pakistani civilian population puts up with the arrogance of these brown firangis!!)

If China is not a threat to India then what was 1962?

Pakistan spends a much higher proportion of its GDP on its armed forces and we get lectures on how India is being unreasonable.

What is Romair trying to say?

That one should compete with the US and China or not at all.

Then Pakistan should reduce its troops to 135000 so that Romair will be satisfied.