India Through Pakistani Eyes

haroonellahi #576,
We are very happy with the stance of the Govt. of India regarding Kashmir, so any proposal would mirror its stand.

Netizen, Rsridhar, and all other Indians. I challenge you to create proposal, which is different from India`s stance and Pakistan`s stance. A proposal which will offer all sides INCLUDING the people of Jammu and Kashmir a dignified exist from the problem. Your personal integrities in my eyes are on the line here. So please, think wisely.

Advice to Indian Muslims:

While I have relatives from other ethnic backgrounds (Turk, Irani, Hindu Indian, Irish Catholic American, Pakistani Punjabi), I find the position of my Indian Muslim relatives to be the most confusing and in need of sound encouragement. During my visits to India and in correspondence with IMs, I have offered the following points for their serious consideration:
1. You are Indians first and foremost. Your loyalty should be to your country where you live, you raise your children, and where you will live out your lives, hopefully, in prosperity, freedom, and protection.
2. Your ancestors were always proud Indians who gave their blood for India.
3. You should never allow anyone to label you as Paki sympathizers. Pakistan has never been even slightly interested in your safety, your lives, or your future. Pakistan has used your numerous misfortunes and setbacks for propaganda purposes to embarrass India - nothing more, nothing less!
4. You should expose and undermine anyone promoting ulterior Paki interests among IMs. These mischief makers are probably ISI agents and will only hurt you in the end.
5. Learn from the excellent Muslim players on the Indian national cricket team. When it comes to playing against Pakistan, Irfan Pathan bowls just a little bit harder, Mohammed Kaif fields just a little bit better. You should be more Indian than the average Hindu Indian, until there is no more suspicion about your patriotism.
6. Learn from the mistakes of your Mohajir relatives in Pakistan. Muslim unity is a ``myth.`` As proven over and over again, the bottom line is that linguistic and provincial bonds are much stronger than religious ones.
7. You should stress and fight for Kashmir remaining in India. It is the only Muslim-majority state in India. If J&K were to go to Pakistan, you would be the real losers. Your numbers would be decreased by several million and the right-wing Hindus would blame you for losing J&K and then question the rationale for you remaining in India. It happened in `47 and will happen again, unless you wizen up.
8. Participate fully and consistently in the wonderful democratic process of India. It is your right and you are fortunate to be blessed with it. Just look at your relatives across the border, they have no such rights. They can`t even prevail on the Paki government to repatriate Urdu-speaking Paki citizens stranded in BD as a result of the 1971 defeat.
9. Your relatives across the border have bleak futures and many have migrated, once more, to other countries for better lives.
10. Reach out to the right-wing Hindu organizations. Convince them of your loyalty to India. Stop being confrontational (Bombay, Godhra, etc.). You are not the custodians of Mughal and Muslim historical places. Leave that task to the Department of Tourism. There is no need for you to play the role of Islamic warriors. Those days are gone and you live in a different world. Excel in education, healthcare, science and technology. Look at your president - he is a good example of a loyal Indian Muslim. Be confident, be happy, and be counted. Good luck to you.

I`m still convinced that there are Indians out there who will understand our legitimate concerns. I am a strong advocate of Indo-Pakistani peace, security, trade, and perhaps a regional allaince to make this truly a South Asian century. I`m just insulted by the lack of insensitivity by the likes of arjun_m, netizen, and rsridhar.

I fail to understand why Indians have to be so self-obsessed. There were some remarks over here that I`ve been indoctrined by my Pakistan History class. Firstly, I haven`t ever taken a Pakistan History course in my entire life. This is the first semester I have ever taken Pakistan History, and I`ve reading from 3 different text books.

So Netizen? Is India going to be purchasing a Super-Sonic White flying horse to send over the world so that it may send it`s mighty military to take over the world? hahahaa

Netizen, it is not about the money. It is the principle. I thought that the idiotic egocentric Indians were all located in the unplugged, but I have been proven wrong by the likes of people like you and rsidhar.

You can always attack Pakistan and her honor, but one just has to refer to India`s personal integrity and self-evident LIES!

We need to be flexible. After all, Nehru`s speechs regarding Kashmir are available. The 1962 statement by India is also available.

#552 by haroonellahi

``Mexico didn`t complain about the U.S adventures in Texas and California?``

The point i am trying to make is, because of losing significant chunk of its territory to the u.s. after the war, Mexico had a lasting bitterness towards the USA (comparable to the one Pakis have against India because of Hyderabad, kashmir, junagadh, bangladesh). But that was past, people need to move along. Are they still wary of u.s. hegemony or expansionist designs? Are they whining about the lost territories? And want America to be ``flexible`` and give them back their territories? All I know is they want more Ameriacn tourists and companies.

``America later paid Mexico around 18 million dollars. It was an attempt by America, rather pathetic in my opinion, to give Mexico a `DIGNIFIED EXIST`.``

By the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo the United States agreed to pay Mexico $15 million and to assume the unpaid claims by Americans against Mexico. In return Mexico recognized the Rio Grande as the boundary of Texas and ceded New Mexico (including the present states of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, and Nevada, a small corner of present-day Wyoming, and the western and southern portions of Colorado) and Upper California (the present state of California) to the United States.

If you want the same solution then india can also pay you $15 million for PoK, fine with you?

---

``#550 by tahmed32 on February 26, 2005 7:21pm PT
”rsridhar #549: one minor problem - India is not the US. And Pakistan is not Mexico.” ``

If you had more knowledge about the Mexican-American war may be you would have a different opinion. As you Pakis always allege that india is a ``bully`` and tries to dominate its ``weaker`` neighbours.

Ulysses S. Grant declared the Mexican-American war to be ``one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation`` and one of the causes of the American Civil War: ``The occupation, separation and annexation [of Texas] were ... a conspiracy to acquire territory out of which slave states might be formed for the American Union.`` Many of the generals of the latter war had fought in the former, including Grant and Robert E. Lee. General Porfirio Díaz, president of Mexico from 1877–1911) would later lament: ``¡Pobre México! Tan lejos de Dios, y tan cerca de los Estados Unidos.`` (``Poor Mexico! So far from God, and so close to the United States.``)

re:#550 by tahmed32 on February 26, 2005 7:21pm PT
(rsridhar #549: one minor problem - India is not the US. And Pakistan is not Mexico.)
Tahmed Sahib,
Agreed with your comment.
I am not using the analogy in a critical fashion. Mexico is actually in a good shape and has a booming economy. Perhaps Mexicans have forgotten the bitter past and look to future with greater hope. Remember the old adage? future is in our hands. Past is past.
Sridhar

re:#552 by haroonellahi
Dude,
Read my post again.
I am saying: Mexicans are not complaining. That they went to war with US over land in the past is history. Today, they are at peace with USA and have a flourishing trade.
You are right in saying that they could not have been in perpetual enmity with USA if they were to survive. They did not start a jehad against USA because they lost their land in the past. They probably realized that it is better to be in peace and prosper with a giant next door.
Pak rulers can probably take a leaf out of this and sue for peace with India and prosper.
Sridhar
P.S: If ignorance is a proof that somebody is on drug, then i guess whole of Pakistan is just smoking away to glory!

re: a Pakistani perspective
This is from the horse`s mouth. A Pakistani herself saying what is obvious to many Indians.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2005-weekly/nos-27-02-2005/foo.htm#2
Excerpt:
(But such differences are simply superficial. No more than the contrasts between Karachi and Peshawar, or between the Swat Valley and Tharparkar. Deep down, there is a deeper divide; a divide based on issues of confidence and certainty of identity, and greater hope for the future. For all the poverty visible on the streets of India, for all the beggars that swarm cars, there can be no doubt that the country is poised to emerge as a major player on the world stage, with analysts in broad agreement that within years, India and China will be two of the world`s most powerful countries.

The National Intelligence Council (NIC), linked to the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), in its latest report, titled `Mapping the Global Future`, which attempts to predict world events over the next 15 years, sees India emerging as a huge political and industrial power, and indeed, by the year 2020, matching the US and Europe in its level of influence on international affairs.

This then is a reality Pakistan must live with. While it may not yet be readily visible, the fact remains that India`s solid core of industry, its steady democracy and, perhaps most crucially of all, the sheer size of its population and its potential for this reason as a giant market, will certainly elevate the country rapidly into the list of world powers.)
HP, are u listening, man.
Sridhar

re: India: an economic giant in the making?
It is not the past but the present and the future i am talking about.
My comparison of Indo-Pak situation to US-Mexico was about the trade. I was pointing out that while Mexico has a booming trade with USA, Pak has ideological issues so that much of the trade is routed through third country denying Pak hard currency (much of money generated is black money).
From what i have read about the happenings in India, it seems like the economy is taking off.
Manufacturing had been the bane of India. china is the unrivalled king here. But even in this sector, highend manufacturing is taking off. This report is from a redirect from Newsweek:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=416555 (high tech manufacturing)
Excerpts:
(Even by the late `90s, as India began to emerge as a global power in information-technology services, the country remained a laggard in manufacturing. But lately India`s manufactured exports have risen, from about $37 billion in 2002 to about $54 billion in 2004, and they could reach $300 billion by 2015, analysts say, as multinationals invest more heavily in India as a manufacturing base. Something similar happened in China, of course. But in India the early players are interested in the talent pool of chemists, designers and engineers, not low-skilled labor.

Look at headlines from the past 12 months: Nokia and LG Electronics unveiled plans to begin handset production in India. Hyundai, which has already exported about 50,000 cars from India, said it plans to make India its export hub for auto components. Toyota opened a factory that will make manual transmissions for vans, SUVs and small trucks produced in Thailand, the Philippines, South Africa and Latin America. Last month, Siemens announced plans to invest more than $500 million by 2009 in new and expanded factories in India.

Even picky German engineers are coming to associate India with quality.)

Another area in which India is finding its place under the sun is medical outsourcing. India is fast becoming a center for Drug research by MNCs as it is cheap to do drug trials here and there is plenty of local talents in the form of PhDs, Chemists to assist in the trial. Here is an article from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/24/business/worldbusiness/24offshore.html?ex=1109912400&en=ae5a35aa828360bf&ei=5040&partner=MOREOVERNEWS

(Clinical trials of new drugs, for instance, are already moving to countries in Asia, Eastern Europe and Latin America, because the costs of conducting the trials are lower and human subjects can be recruited more easily.

Drug manufacturing is another area that can move. India already has a thriving generic drug manufacturing sector and is moving into biotechnology. One biotechnology company, Biocon, went public in India last year. Its founder and chief executive, Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw, has been described in the news media as the richest woman in India.

With revenues of more than $100 million last year, Biocon is a leading producer of generic cholesterol-lowering drugs called statins. It has designs to become a major producer of insulin and monoclonal antibodies. It also has divisions that do contract research and run clinical trials for large American and European pharmaceutical companies.

Fueling the outsourcing trend are Indian and Chinese scientists who obtained graduate degrees and work experience in the United States and Europe and are now returning to their native countries. )

India can rival US in competitiveness? That should be news, right?

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=416458

Excerpt:
(Approximately 63 percent of U.S. executives surveyed said their competition would come primarily from the United States, while 59 percent said it would come from China, and 45 percent said it would come from India. Nine out of 10 executives polled said the competitive threat posed by Chinese and Indian companies would likely intensify in the next two years.)
More Indian engineers like Thiagarajan are opting to stay at home — an early indication that India is making good on its long-term economic vision: With global trade shifting to Asia, India is proclaiming itself a knowledge economy to compete on a different track from China, the world`s manufacturing giant.

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=416394 (redirect from LA times)

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=416404

http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=416457 (redirect from Christian Science Monitor)
Excerpts:

(``Five to 10 years ago, most of the opportunities were in the U.S.,`` says Thiagarajan, who plans to return to India to work if he does attend MIT. ``There are lots of opportunities here now. Naturally, who wouldn`t prefer jobs at home?``
This from another report in a US newspaper:

(More Indian engineers like Thiagarajan are opting to stay at home — an early indication that India is making good on its long-term economic vision: With global trade shifting to Asia, India is proclaiming itself a knowledge economy to compete on a different track from China, the world`s manufacturing giant.

``Clearly, it`s a success story. India has established new industries — software services, back offices — and it`s bringing in a sizable amount of foreign currency and using that to create jobs,`` says John Daly, a technology consultant based in Maryland who worked for the U.S. Agency for International Development for 20 years. ``It seems quite clear that India will continue to grow.``

``Brain drain`` used to represent a $2 billion annual loss to India, but a 2002 study by the Public Policy Institute of California suggests that the combined effect of the slowdown in the U.S. economy and the growth of the tech industry in India will help bring home as many as 45% of the Indian high-technology workers abroad. Such engineering schools as IIT are also claiming a 50% decline in the number of students leaving the country.

``Students are finding interesting and challenging jobs in India,`` says V. Kalyanaraman, dean of the center for industrial consultancy and sponsored research at IIT in Madras. ``The pay is also better than it used to be, and they find that they can have a good quality of life.``

The higher pay comes from foreign investment, which leaped 78%, to $5 billion last year, up from $2.8 billion in 2003. Software and services exports contributed $12.5 billion in 2004, jumping 30.5% from the previous year.)

On the military front, this is what US intelligent agency (NIC) has to say:
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=416404

(India will emerge as an “unrivalled” regional power with large military capabilities in the next 15 years but its “rising ambition” would further strain its relations with China besides complicating ties with Russia and Japan, America’s National Intelligence Council has said in a report.

“India will be the unrivalled regional power with a large military — including naval and nuclear capabilities — and a dynamic and growing economy,” the NIC, which represents 15 spy agencies of the US including the CIA, has said in its global trends forecast for 15 years.)

The future trend is clear. Pak will be next door to an economic and military giant is next 20 years or so just like Mexico is next door to US today. The question is: are Pakis upto it? In other words, is Pak geared up for this change?
Sridhar
H.P: surely you can come up with something better than that!
Sridhar

``A High-Risk Nuclear Stakeout``
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-khan27feb27,0,2403259.story?coll=la-home-headlines

``The two nuclear weapons specialists who examined the top-secret plans said the Libyans had handed them over in two plastic shopping bags. They said identifying marks had been removed but the designs were clearly for a warhead tested by China in 1966 and later provided to Pakistan.``

``The notes, written in English by at least four people, were numbered sequentially and appeared to be the detailed records of a year-long seminar given long ago by Chinese experts to Pakistanis on how to build the warhead, the experts said.``

``A High-Risk Nuclear Stakeout``
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-khan27feb27,0,2403259.story?coll=la-home-headlines

``The two nuclear weapons specialists who examined the top-secret plans said the Libyans had handed them over in two plastic shopping bags. They said identifying marks had been removed but the designs were clearly for a warhead tested by China in 1966 and later provided to Pakistan.``

#514 by yahyajamil

[Pakistan fears India because Pakistan has fought two major wars (1965 and 1971) and two limited conflicts (Kashmir 1948 and 1999) with India. In 1971, India actively intervened in a civil war like situation in former East Pakistan and helped dismember Pakistan.]

If Pakistan feared India, do you think it would have tried to take over Kashmir in 1948, 1965, and 1999?

Only Pakis believe the myth that India threatens Pakistan`s very existence. This myth has been peddled continuously by Paki rulers (read Army) for over 50 years now, so much so that Pakis have become paranoid of India.

Paranoia has become a national disease in Pakistan, never mind the fact that the only time India attacked Pakistan was in 1971, when the flood of refugees from East Pakistan became unbearable, especially at a time when India itself was recovering from a devastating famine, and it could not afford to feed millions of them.

And if India hadn`t intervened at that time of crisis, India would have faced a civil war itself. So who do you think India should have cared for more at that time, itself or Pakistan? Especially when the civil war in East Pakistan was one that was engineered by the Paki Army itself.

#552 by haroonellahi on February 27, 2005 0:25am PT


Arjun_m, how old are you?


Old enough to see through your lame reasoning....and old enough to know that India isn`t going to change boundaries, if that`s what you mean by a dignified exist.......

Re: # 558 Closet-Mullah32

Nah - I slap you only when step out of the line. But in this case - you are well inside the line.

Like I have said - India is nation of impotent fools, ruled by commies and eunuchs. They can`t build roads, ports, modern cities - and yet they talk about being ``superpower``. SO if anybody compared US to india - that`s just a big delusion. So you can throw all the cold water you have over them - no questions will be asked.

How are things between HP and you?. Seems like things have cooled of a bit after I slapped you silly last time?