The Ultimate Violation
Beena Sarwar February 20, 2005
#71 Posted by sabag on November 9, 2006 3:54:06 pm
I agree what is happening with women is sad, but this is not only in pakistan, America has the highest rate of sexual harassment in the world, 4 times higher than Germany, 13 times higher than England, and 20 times higher than Japan. so it is not only pakistan, but the problem is that pakistan is mis represented so much in the media that it seems that such things happen only in Pakistan. I myself have been living in Germany and i know how the situation here is.
You talk about the outrage on publicizing Shaukat hayat case, i say at least there were out rages, there were and still are people to condemn such things, but here in Germany a girl gave birth to a child from her brother and was showed on TV and she said she is proud of it, and there were no outrages no condemnation here in Germany , then what happened to austrian girl Natascha Kampusch, there are many examples in west than what is said about Pakistan but the problem is that what happens in Pakistan is projected more on media than what happens in the west.
And i wonder that these victims of sexual harrasment who flew to canada or america or europe will be safe there, because mostly pakistani people want to go back to pakistan for their growing childern either boys or girls because if they stayed in america or europe they are just unsafe as far as their moral values are concerend.
Here one person commented that in Islam women are given 2nd class status i think he does not had any knowledge of Islam, in my opinion the solution to these problem is only the Islamic sharia.
If today each men and women in pakistan do complete islamic hijab, and after that a capital punishment must be given to the one who sexually harass a women then there is no doubt that this problem will be solved.
You talk about the outrage on publicizing Shaukat hayat case, i say at least there were out rages, there were and still are people to condemn such things, but here in Germany a girl gave birth to a child from her brother and was showed on TV and she said she is proud of it, and there were no outrages no condemnation here in Germany , then what happened to austrian girl Natascha Kampusch, there are many examples in west than what is said about Pakistan but the problem is that what happens in Pakistan is projected more on media than what happens in the west.
And i wonder that these victims of sexual harrasment who flew to canada or america or europe will be safe there, because mostly pakistani people want to go back to pakistan for their growing childern either boys or girls because if they stayed in america or europe they are just unsafe as far as their moral values are concerend.
Here one person commented that in Islam women are given 2nd class status i think he does not had any knowledge of Islam, in my opinion the solution to these problem is only the Islamic sharia.
If today each men and women in pakistan do complete islamic hijab, and after that a capital punishment must be given to the one who sexually harass a women then there is no doubt that this problem will be solved.
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#70 Posted by waterbearer on December 22, 2005 12:56:16 am
To # 63 (rahul capri)
Yes I definitely agree when you say pitying the victim and saying her life is shattered is equal to considering rape destroyed her honor. And I too feel that`s the ultimate stupidity. But I think that sometimes, victims become devastated even not considering their ``lost`` honor. I mean, when I was 14, I experienced the sexual harassment or so-called ``eve-teasing`` for the first time in my life. It felt so weird and I could not tell anybody about it, even my sister and her friends, least of all my parents. It wasn`t because I was trying to protect my izzat or whatever, it was because I was completely repelled. If I myself was so shaken by that little incident, how much would a rape victim feel? And this comes from someone whose friends and family consider to not at all be sensitive or emotional.
Yes I definitely agree when you say pitying the victim and saying her life is shattered is equal to considering rape destroyed her honor. And I too feel that`s the ultimate stupidity. But I think that sometimes, victims become devastated even not considering their ``lost`` honor. I mean, when I was 14, I experienced the sexual harassment or so-called ``eve-teasing`` for the first time in my life. It felt so weird and I could not tell anybody about it, even my sister and her friends, least of all my parents. It wasn`t because I was trying to protect my izzat or whatever, it was because I was completely repelled. If I myself was so shaken by that little incident, how much would a rape victim feel? And this comes from someone whose friends and family consider to not at all be sensitive or emotional.
#69 Posted by waterbearer on December 22, 2005 12:56:07 am
To # 63 (rahul capri)
Yes I definitely agree when you say pitying the victim and saying her life is shattered is equal to considering rape destroyed her honor. And I too feel that`s the ultimate stupidity. But I think that sometimes, victims become devastated even not considering their ``lost`` honor. I mean, when I was 14, I experienced the sexual harassment or so-called ``eve-teasing`` for the first time in my life. It felt so weird and I could not tell anybody about it, even my sister and her friends, least of all my parents. It wasn`t because I was trying to protect my izzat or whatever, it was because I was completely repelled. If I myself was so shaken by that little incident, how much would a rape victim feel? And this comes from someone whose friends and family consider to not at all be sensitive or emotional.
Yes I definitely agree when you say pitying the victim and saying her life is shattered is equal to considering rape destroyed her honor. And I too feel that`s the ultimate stupidity. But I think that sometimes, victims become devastated even not considering their ``lost`` honor. I mean, when I was 14, I experienced the sexual harassment or so-called ``eve-teasing`` for the first time in my life. It felt so weird and I could not tell anybody about it, even my sister and her friends, least of all my parents. It wasn`t because I was trying to protect my izzat or whatever, it was because I was completely repelled. If I myself was so shaken by that little incident, how much would a rape victim feel? And this comes from someone whose friends and family consider to not at all be sensitive or emotional.
#68 Posted by XeroxKhan on March 28, 2005 9:14:39 am
Pakistani women fare no better (or worse) than a bucket. Functional, often neglected and always misused.
Islam dictates the second class status of women in general and wives in particular.
If this is how the ``muslim`` women are treated, what could be the fate of a ``non-muslim`` woman in a country like Pakistan?
Similar to what Dr. Shazia did, ``ALL PAKISTANI WOMEN`` should flee the country.
Islam dictates the second class status of women in general and wives in particular.
If this is how the ``muslim`` women are treated, what could be the fate of a ``non-muslim`` woman in a country like Pakistan?
Similar to what Dr. Shazia did, ``ALL PAKISTANI WOMEN`` should flee the country.
#67 Posted by kardesh on March 2, 2005 6:38:34 pm
In Pakistan, the army does what it wants and no one can question it. Ask the Bengalis, the Baluchis, the Mohajirs. Why should Shazia expect any better?
#66 Posted by djkewl on March 1, 2005 7:16:14 am
ex president reagan to rape victims quote... (Relax and enjoy it)
#66 Posted by djkewl on March 1, 2005 7:16:16 am
ex president reagan to rape victims quote... (Relax and enjoy it)
#65 Posted by rahul_capri on February 25, 2005 8:06:19 pm
ana,
I already said that I am not disagreeing with u. Firstly, the concept of honour and women as the sole bastions of it is so much ingrained into our thinking that it just cant be reasoned away so simply. Secondly, if a woman is feeling devastated by rape, whatever the reasons may be, I am nobody to judge her and tell her how she is supposed to feel. This would be condescending in the same vain as referring to rape as gross violation, and life shattering experience etc. Though, In my humble opinion most of the trauma felt by a woman is because of the feeling that she is ``polluted``,and her honour has been compromised and that the society feels the same way. The woman is part of the same patriarchal society that has made such norms, yet another tool to exercise control over woman and make them weak in power relationships. This culminates in the double whammy of rape.Aside from the trauma that the rape victim may feel without any societal overtones, there is this back breaking and life shattering burden of the societal stigma of rape.
While those idiots who wish to kill her because she was raped deserve the same punishment as the rapists, on the other hand lets not be too judgmental about her state. If she wants help , she will seek it out from medical institutions, besides she always has her family to turn to. Here, I couldnt agree more with doublec that support structures should be in place.
But I only have complete disregard for that school of thought that presupposes that her life has been shattered beyond repair and she would never be the same again.
I already said that I am not disagreeing with u. Firstly, the concept of honour and women as the sole bastions of it is so much ingrained into our thinking that it just cant be reasoned away so simply. Secondly, if a woman is feeling devastated by rape, whatever the reasons may be, I am nobody to judge her and tell her how she is supposed to feel. This would be condescending in the same vain as referring to rape as gross violation, and life shattering experience etc. Though, In my humble opinion most of the trauma felt by a woman is because of the feeling that she is ``polluted``,and her honour has been compromised and that the society feels the same way. The woman is part of the same patriarchal society that has made such norms, yet another tool to exercise control over woman and make them weak in power relationships. This culminates in the double whammy of rape.Aside from the trauma that the rape victim may feel without any societal overtones, there is this back breaking and life shattering burden of the societal stigma of rape.
While those idiots who wish to kill her because she was raped deserve the same punishment as the rapists, on the other hand lets not be too judgmental about her state. If she wants help , she will seek it out from medical institutions, besides she always has her family to turn to. Here, I couldnt agree more with doublec that support structures should be in place.
But I only have complete disregard for that school of thought that presupposes that her life has been shattered beyond repair and she would never be the same again.
#63 Posted by ana on February 25, 2005 9:36:28 am
rahul #61.
i don`t know quite how to explain the reason, but i will make an attempt.
i have known men who have broken someone`s bones in anger. i know a man who may have caused even more physical and psychological harm to his daughter in beating her right afterwards an accident, than the broken bones caused in that accident. i know of what happened to my cousin and the bruising and scars when someone on a motorbike pulled at her dupatta and dragged her on the ground.
when someone breaks a person`s bones, it is a violation. there is no doubt about that. bones don`t heal easily. and bones obviously are integral parts of your body, but have you ever heard your finger or your leg referred to as your private part? is a man breaking a woman`s jaw, referred to destroying her private parts? perhaps they should.
for me, as for many whom i know, penetration goes beyond the violation of breaking bones. our private parts, aside from being called our izzat and whatnot when violated, is a deeper violation, a violation of our inner depths, our heart and soul, our mind, our psyche, our sense of security, remnants of trust we have left. and yes there are those of us who are stronger, those who say that he penetrated me, but he did not touch my heart or my soul. but there are those for whom it takes longer to recover. . . well-known women like connie francis and theresa saldana who have been afraid to leave their houses, and we know so little about about how certain women deal with rape, like those who don`t have the means, and don`t feel they have a voice. it`s really all well and good for those of us who sit here with laptops and computers to say that everyone should raise their voices, but then when have some of us made it possible for women to raise their voices? there are so many cases which are not high-profile and are ignored, some for the reasons you give, some for others.
i don`t know if i`ve answered your question, and i don`t expect you to agree with what i have to say. in my personal experience, i`ve been hit again and again, to where it feels like something has broken, and i`ve been in a situation where in my helplessness and fear, i`ve curled up in a ball and wanted to die. . . and i can tell you from those experiences that it is definitely not the same. and no precise explanation or reason can be given for that. :)
i don`t know quite how to explain the reason, but i will make an attempt.
i have known men who have broken someone`s bones in anger. i know a man who may have caused even more physical and psychological harm to his daughter in beating her right afterwards an accident, than the broken bones caused in that accident. i know of what happened to my cousin and the bruising and scars when someone on a motorbike pulled at her dupatta and dragged her on the ground.
when someone breaks a person`s bones, it is a violation. there is no doubt about that. bones don`t heal easily. and bones obviously are integral parts of your body, but have you ever heard your finger or your leg referred to as your private part? is a man breaking a woman`s jaw, referred to destroying her private parts? perhaps they should.
for me, as for many whom i know, penetration goes beyond the violation of breaking bones. our private parts, aside from being called our izzat and whatnot when violated, is a deeper violation, a violation of our inner depths, our heart and soul, our mind, our psyche, our sense of security, remnants of trust we have left. and yes there are those of us who are stronger, those who say that he penetrated me, but he did not touch my heart or my soul. but there are those for whom it takes longer to recover. . . well-known women like connie francis and theresa saldana who have been afraid to leave their houses, and we know so little about about how certain women deal with rape, like those who don`t have the means, and don`t feel they have a voice. it`s really all well and good for those of us who sit here with laptops and computers to say that everyone should raise their voices, but then when have some of us made it possible for women to raise their voices? there are so many cases which are not high-profile and are ignored, some for the reasons you give, some for others.
i don`t know if i`ve answered your question, and i don`t expect you to agree with what i have to say. in my personal experience, i`ve been hit again and again, to where it feels like something has broken, and i`ve been in a situation where in my helplessness and fear, i`ve curled up in a ball and wanted to die. . . and i can tell you from those experiences that it is definitely not the same. and no precise explanation or reason can be given for that. :)
#62 Posted by rahul_capri on February 25, 2005 5:39:19 am
p.s. to #61 ana, I am actually not disagreeing with you, just want to ask the reason.
#61 Posted by rahul_capri on February 25, 2005 5:27:01 am
ana, I did not mean breaking a bone by accident.Let it be breaking a bone by somebody else .
you can`t really compare penetration by force to breaking a bone in your body, can you?
Why not?
you can`t really compare penetration by force to breaking a bone in your body, can you?
Why not?
#60 Posted by ana on February 24, 2005 9:36:59 pm
teshah sahib,
there is more than one real crime here. rape is no less a crime than the bastards who are covering up the crime. . . regardless of whether it is to be investigated or not. and if there is a cover-up, the chances are less likely that it will be investigated. one more shame to add to the other shames. and they do pile up.
rahul:
what you are saying in part reminds me a bit of this ``masque`` this play written by john milton (of ``paradise lost`` fame) called ``comus``, where he has the woman being violated as being the stronger of everyone because even though she is violated, she keeps her `chastity` intact. of course in real life, it`s not easy to feel that way, especially with how much of society views rape as a loss of honor. but why isn`t rape so devastating? something is lost. someone is violated. you cannot exactly compare this to breaking a bone, especially if a bone is something that has broken in an accident. rape is no accident. it is a choice by someone to violate parts of someone that the one violated has protected.
speaking as someone who has broken a bone or two in her body, i`m not saying that`s devastating. . . and highly inconvenient. but bones heal as do certain outlooks. you can`t really compare penetration by force to breaking a bone in your body, can you?
there is more than one real crime here. rape is no less a crime than the bastards who are covering up the crime. . . regardless of whether it is to be investigated or not. and if there is a cover-up, the chances are less likely that it will be investigated. one more shame to add to the other shames. and they do pile up.
rahul:
what you are saying in part reminds me a bit of this ``masque`` this play written by john milton (of ``paradise lost`` fame) called ``comus``, where he has the woman being violated as being the stronger of everyone because even though she is violated, she keeps her `chastity` intact. of course in real life, it`s not easy to feel that way, especially with how much of society views rape as a loss of honor. but why isn`t rape so devastating? something is lost. someone is violated. you cannot exactly compare this to breaking a bone, especially if a bone is something that has broken in an accident. rape is no accident. it is a choice by someone to violate parts of someone that the one violated has protected.
speaking as someone who has broken a bone or two in her body, i`m not saying that`s devastating. . . and highly inconvenient. but bones heal as do certain outlooks. you can`t really compare penetration by force to breaking a bone in your body, can you?
#59 Posted by rahul_capri on February 24, 2005 5:48:08 pm
doublec #56
Are you saying that people don’t report sexual abuse because they get special treatment?
Yeah,exactly. Because rape is associated with ``izzat lutna ``,izzat par daag lagna`` , ``zindagi barbaad hona``, ``kisi ko munh dikhane ke kaabil na rahna``..etc. etc. I dont actually disagree with you when you say in #34 that Things will never be the same after such gross violation,except the semantics of ``gross violation``, but lets ask ourselves a question,why? Why is rape such a devastating experience for a woman? Why is it more devastating than breaking a bone? And I am not talikng about honour killing here.
There are stories in Indian history when Rajput queens opted for ``jauhar`` (suicide) when they were cornered by attackers because their ``honour`` was at stake. How does rape gets equated with foregoing of honour? I think it makes sense not to report a rape case in such a society.At least the ``izzat`` is secure, whether the rapist gets punished or not.
On another note, this discussion probably does not belong here, for one, with the current mindsets of our society, rape is really the most heinous crime and gross violation etc. and secondly, even without the idiotic concepts of izzat, the culprit should be punished, and thats what this discussion is about.
Are you saying that people don’t report sexual abuse because they get special treatment?
Yeah,exactly. Because rape is associated with ``izzat lutna ``,izzat par daag lagna`` , ``zindagi barbaad hona``, ``kisi ko munh dikhane ke kaabil na rahna``..etc. etc. I dont actually disagree with you when you say in #34 that Things will never be the same after such gross violation,except the semantics of ``gross violation``, but lets ask ourselves a question,why? Why is rape such a devastating experience for a woman? Why is it more devastating than breaking a bone? And I am not talikng about honour killing here.
There are stories in Indian history when Rajput queens opted for ``jauhar`` (suicide) when they were cornered by attackers because their ``honour`` was at stake. How does rape gets equated with foregoing of honour? I think it makes sense not to report a rape case in such a society.At least the ``izzat`` is secure, whether the rapist gets punished or not.
On another note, this discussion probably does not belong here, for one, with the current mindsets of our society, rape is really the most heinous crime and gross violation etc. and secondly, even without the idiotic concepts of izzat, the culprit should be punished, and thats what this discussion is about.
#58 Posted by teshah on February 24, 2005 4:04:56 pm
What the chowkies in general do not realise the real crime in this case, which is boiling the minds of the people, is not the rape itself which is yet to be investigated, but the cover up of an accused Hammad alleged to be the prime culprit, because he happened to be the `HOLY COW`. Now the COAS who is also Ex-officiao President has come out openly to defend him claiming that,``He knows Hammad is not guilty``. It is the ultimate folly, which is likely to add fuel to the fire.
#57 Posted by ana on February 24, 2005 11:02:21 am
doublec #56
yaar, i have read that post quite a few times, and if you read my very first response to it, you will see that i did note that i know you meant well. it just bothers me when even well-meaning folk refer to people, and women in particular as objects, even if it is for lack of words. i`m not talking about your attitude, but attitudes of more than a few who reflect this idea that women are objects are the attitudes which have harmed more than helped women, especially in our part of the world.
*********
on another note (or perhaps the same one): while i appreciate much of what beena has said here, we should be less concerned with improving our image abroad, and be more concerned with being able to live with ourselves and each other. in the face of the numerous injustices, if we cannot find a way to not just address, but work on eliminating these, including the stranglehold of the powers-that-be, ``progress`` will be more or less a joke. certain forces abroad really don`t give a damn about our image as long as they can get what they want from us. . . sad but true. it is we who have to live with our words, our actions, and the consequences of such. and the sad part is those who commit vile acts for their own gratification and glory and those who defend them are the least bit concerned about being able to live with themselves or those around them.
yaar, i have read that post quite a few times, and if you read my very first response to it, you will see that i did note that i know you meant well. it just bothers me when even well-meaning folk refer to people, and women in particular as objects, even if it is for lack of words. i`m not talking about your attitude, but attitudes of more than a few who reflect this idea that women are objects are the attitudes which have harmed more than helped women, especially in our part of the world.
*********
on another note (or perhaps the same one): while i appreciate much of what beena has said here, we should be less concerned with improving our image abroad, and be more concerned with being able to live with ourselves and each other. in the face of the numerous injustices, if we cannot find a way to not just address, but work on eliminating these, including the stranglehold of the powers-that-be, ``progress`` will be more or less a joke. certain forces abroad really don`t give a damn about our image as long as they can get what they want from us. . . sad but true. it is we who have to live with our words, our actions, and the consequences of such. and the sad part is those who commit vile acts for their own gratification and glory and those who defend them are the least bit concerned about being able to live with themselves or those around them.
#56 Posted by DoubleC on February 24, 2005 10:02:29 am
Rahul,
Are you saying that people don’t report sexual abuse because they get special treatment? If yes, then dude you don’t make sense.
Ana,
Ana…… Ana….. Ana……. Please go back and read my first post (#34)….. I wrote “ (I use the term object for lack of words)”. This does explain that I did not demean the doctor. I never intended to do it.
By me saying that she should be cared for as a delicate object…. Does not mean that I am feeling sorry for her. My post 34 was not what I felt for this person but more what I wish her husband and her close families do for her. Her husband seems like a nice person and I wish he stays besides her through the ordeal that she will have to go through.
Again I am not talking about feeling sorry for her but rather of the “support system” that has to be developed around her or as a matter of fact with every rape victim….. that can help them to come back to enjoy their lives.
Your comment on justice is correct….. it does help in putting a closure. However since this happened in Pakistan, I fear that justice will not be served and this can cause more pain for the doctor.
Are you saying that people don’t report sexual abuse because they get special treatment? If yes, then dude you don’t make sense.
Ana,
Ana…… Ana….. Ana……. Please go back and read my first post (#34)….. I wrote “ (I use the term object for lack of words)”. This does explain that I did not demean the doctor. I never intended to do it.
By me saying that she should be cared for as a delicate object…. Does not mean that I am feeling sorry for her. My post 34 was not what I felt for this person but more what I wish her husband and her close families do for her. Her husband seems like a nice person and I wish he stays besides her through the ordeal that she will have to go through.
Again I am not talking about feeling sorry for her but rather of the “support system” that has to be developed around her or as a matter of fact with every rape victim….. that can help them to come back to enjoy their lives.
Your comment on justice is correct….. it does help in putting a closure. However since this happened in Pakistan, I fear that justice will not be served and this can cause more pain for the doctor.
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