Am I Insane?

ok Emma,

this sounds like something i had in the past...my advice to u is to leave him and try to find another man..even if he is not pakistani...any muslim...
if u husband has money which he does he will find lots of other girls willing to sleep with him and seems like that`s all he needs and thats fine...have self respect to actually do whats best for u...and leave him
if he is not willing to work on the marriage, why should u?

good luck :)

Dina.

Typical watta satta story. When you guys will grow up. What your brother has to do with it? He should try to live his own life. Remember he will not feed you forever and if he wants to send his wife back its not out of your love, its just an excuse to get out of his own marriage. So pack your bags if you want to and live your own life if thats what you feel like doing. Think about yourself only.

well !! i want to give you just a few points what i extracted from my life,,,,,, first of all you need to be brave enough to confront the situations,,, what will happen at max??? if your brother asks his wife to leave because of you then its his fault not yours, he should act maturely..... second thing is that what will you get in the end if u r not willing to leave that husband? why are you degrading yourself? if you wont respect yourself no one else would....who is he ? just a HUSBAND!! which are taken as gods by us(girls) although they dont deserve....if someone cant care for you cant understand you then u dont need to mess ur life....dont waste your life.... you may find someone better than him, he doesnt deserve you,,,, and what will u get by sacrificing? will your brother and bhabi give you a gold medal? NO they would never. Go and find ways in your life, marriage is not life, its just a part of life,,,,like many other things some and go,,,few things suite you and few dont.... every one makes mistakes,,,,its not a big problem.... but you should not let yourself suffer from a wrong decision,,,if you find u made a wrong decision then just correct it by anyway, dont suffer. you get life only once dont waste it cuz of someone who does not want to understand you. time passes leaving behind regrets !!! try to find other colors of life which may be more beautiful than those which you are trying for in vain.

Emma Nisa,

I believe that oppression is worse than death. I do not mean to say that if being oppressed one must commit suicide. For liberty comes in many forms. There is no one way that leads to salvation, but rather there are many. But one thing is certain. And that is if one wills to attain liberty one must either escape oppression or marginalize as it means to or affects one`s way of life. For the ultimate goal of humankind is to make oneself better foremost mentally and spiritually.

Life is hard enough for women in an egoistic patriarchical society like Pakistan where women despite Islam purportedly prevailing are abused in the name of religion and denied their rights. Islam in its pure essence is pro liberty, pro life, pro salvation.

It is my view that women have rights which foremost God has sanctified for them to possess. Who is a man to dictate a woman to turn against her self, her freedom, her transcendence? Who is a man to counter what God has deemed just and fair?

Towards this end, if you feel that you are being maltreated consult our glorious Quran and involve people whose thoughts are well grounded in `deen`. Make the effort and InshaAllah God will guide you and those in your company who will to work righteousness. Most of the time, both husband and wife need to make sacrifices and bend their natures formed from conforming casually to societal norms without many times heeding to their normative meaning of either being right or wrong. But one thing remains certain. And that is that the oppressor, if any, must either retreat or give in. The best thing you can do at this time is to follow the truth in you that is your deep most certainty.

May God help you, guide you, protect you. But above all, may God be by you.

Peace!

Irfan,
I won`t be revisiting this board and the subject under discussion.
Forgot to add that in my last post.
Take Care.

Irfan:

:)

Thank god I am a policy maker where I am and things are quite functional and under control. We all have our own style of viewing life and conducting things the way we want to, but I try to avoid making random comments without any base. Unfortunately, I do not have the luxury of time to provide real life examples of all the scenarios I have come across. Therefore, I try to put in a few words summarizing the gist (I am not sure if I am good at that). I can see how certain remarks or statements can be misread, but having an extensive experience in very challenging practical world (a personal choice) gives me an edge over you. I guess you are still in school which has its own challenges, but practical life is quite different.

Interestingly, I have ran into quite a few couples (non-pakistanis) who`ve shared with me the reason behind not having any kids. They did not think that their parents had set a good example for them to follow. Both of them happened to be my colleagues; and I have worked with them for an extensive period of time. Apparently, they were the nicest people around the block. Still, they were very upfront about their deficiencies and accepted those. That says something about the character.

Somehow, I feel that many men will have issues with this write-up since it states a woman`s outburst. Whether it is a rationally put together argument or an outburst, it is a form of communication. This is not an account of a well put together love story or a memoir. It leans towards an outburst. And an outburst can be in any form or shape. Obviously, it will have some loop holes but it will reveal a few things that may ring a bell.

Lastly, my view on the eastern culture may be completely different from yours. What I see as a positive in the western culture may be the most unappealing factor to you. What you may see as the most positive attribute of the eastern culture may mean nothing to me. So, do not try to trivialize .... I detest that trait.

ZahraJ,

I`ll accept as a given your argument that self-respect and courage are completely independant of each other. But her own admission that she is bending over backwards to `keep` him is damning evidence of her dependance, lack of courage and (this is going to hurt) the fact that even those of us raised abroad have flaws, inspite of the excellent sociocultural environment provided. I won`t even go into how sophisticated this woman is, her article is available for public viewing.

Might I suggest you actually do a bit of thinking before riling against `our` culture, men, society at large and any or everything people say. My personal opinion (which may be wrong) is that you do not argue issues, you argue people. Do you seriously believe that the `maternal marriage police` is a phenomenon restricted to our culture? There are numerous references to mothers pushing daughters (and sons) to marry in western pop culture entertainment (during 10 years we were subjected to Friends, in which Monica`s mother wouldn`t get off the girl`s back about getting married). I have a colleague who is doing a doctorate, she constantly complains of her mother`s heckling her to get married. Such rants against our culture and assorted other things don`t make you look progressive, `modern` or enlightened; just makes it clear you have an axe to grind and will rub it against anything whatever the merits or otherwise. I admit that much is wrong with our culture, and that much is right with western cultures; but there are also some good things about our cultures and some bad about western values. Real life is full of grey areas, there are no crisp blacks and whites, rights or wrongs.

Who gets to decide if someone is `good` enough to sire children? You? Me? The government? Auto-control wouldn`t work, because I`m sure no one will say to himself/herself ``I`m too messy, I shouldn`t have kids``. You would have fit right in to Nazi Germany, where the superior race (your good people or übermenschen) would have been allowed to multiply while the üntermenschen (the messy ones) would have slowly died out. Good thing you weren`t a policymaker or little Albert`s parents might never have concieved and the world would have been deprived of Einstein`s genius.

Irfan.

PS: Sorry about the long post, but try as I might I couldn`t shorten it.

Irfan:

One can lose sight of self respect but still be brave and courageous. These attributes are independent of each other.

By the way, just a corrrection or addition to my previous post, I also know some people who did not choose to get into marital relationship after one bad experience. Since our culture has its own flaws therefore often times people do not think through what they are getting into and just take a plunge for the heck of it - why? Because their friends are getting married or their mother has asked them to. This is an ideal example of cluelessness which is prevalent amongst both men and women from our culture.

Our culture blackmails women in various ways. One was exactly what Nazar wrote in his post. What if she never finds another person? What if she finds someone worse than her first husband? Well, life is about taking chances but moving ahead. How about the man in the picture may not be able to find another decent woman? How about his second wife may be a crook in disguise? How about the 2nd wife may cheat on her husband?

Marriage is just a step in life, like many other steps. For some it is the ultimate whereas for others it`s just a step. But it`s important from the perspective of selecting a right companion. Those who want to have kids must look into the character of the man they are marrying. If you have nothing to appreciate in your husband then why would you like him to be the father of your child? Anyone who thinks that children are the source of keeping the husband and wife together should be ashamed of themselves and the poor logic they have been carrying in their back pocket. If two people have no respect for each other then it`s sinful to even think of having kids. The world is already full of messy people. In my strong opinion, only nice and good people should think of multiplying. The rest should adopt if possible or pray for their sins. This may sound a weird philosophy, but I am a strong believer of that.

Lastly, the women who lean on their husbands for security can definitely have issues when the blanket starts to walk away. They feel exposed and shelterless. That must be a horrible feeling. Probably, they are willing to sacrifice their self esteem to get that ``temporary refuge``. Not sure.

Re: # 139 (ZahraJ),

I am not against her leaving her husband, neither am I in favor of it. Of course, because you have seen the good results from getting out of unhappy marriages in people close to you, so you obviously have a defined point-of-view to it all.

But please, do not call the writer of this article a courageous woman, that would be a disservice to the many brave women out there who break stereotypes everyday. This woman, however, is willing to go to great lengths to keep her husband, who to her is like a security blanket. You yourself stated (#47) that it seems she has no self-respect and thus expecting respect from her husband is unrealistic.

Irfan.

Irfan noone will be reading this article..Im not stupid, i know this will not help him in anyway. My in laws and Jawad are not Internet savvy, Jawad only uses his laptop for msn messenger to keep in touch with his girlfriends in pakistan. If any of them read it, thats a different matter.
Thank you Zahra , r3dlipstick for your advice. I dont know what to say, as i am not doing anything at the moment just taking things as they come. I can only make my decision now, if Jawad asks me to leave one more time, i will ask him to take my back to my parents, maybe the job, cvar and mobile was just excuses to bide him time.

Re: # 138 Irfan:
I understand your take but I have a different way of seeing this matter since I have seen quite a few very close friends and some cousins go through the same turmoil. All of them got out of it and were happier and more peaceful than in their early circumstances. There`s an old saying that the tie or the relationship between husband - wife is the closest relationship but it is the most sensitive one as well. Keeping the sensitivity aspect in mind, I would say if one side is heartbroken and feels mistreated whereas the other wants to get out of that relationship then there is very little to keep the bond together. I am from the school of thought that if two people are not cut out for each other or are not happy with each other then they should not waste a single minute and go their own way to find their bliss. That may mean different things for different people. Amongst many of my close friends, remarriage has happened and their lives have been stable and better than the hell they went through in their 1st marriage. I have also heard about remarriage of two of my aunts in 1960s. I think being well educated was highly well regarded. Also, both of them were independent and career oriented women. This was despite the fact that my late nana jaan was a religious man.

By the way, I do not see anything wrong with everyone expressing their notion about the issue under discussion. In that regard, I would not consider Emma as ``poor woman.`` From that aspect, I would say that she is both courageous and bold woman and in order to secure more compliments, I would strongly recommend to her to get her phone connected, buy a brand new car, look for a decent opportunity that will assist her in her career development and growth. In addition to that, start developing some goals and establish herself first before falling for any insecure and control freak Pakistani male`s trap. Lastly, she has to keep a very important aspect in mind that a Pakistani man is not that open minded to accept and tolerate assertive women who like to flourish in their careers. There are definitely exceptions but those are few and far between. I also think she should charge the phone`s reconnection fee as well as the new car on Jawad`s credit card. After all, she is still his wife and intends to lean in that direction. Why not exercise her ``rights`` :)? Just kidding.

Re: # 135 (ZahraJ),

I didn`t shouldn`t express her feelings towards him, just that maybe airing dirty laundry in such a public manner is inappropriate. Her cause would be served much better by saying all this to him rather than to us. And anyway you can`t say that slandering someone`s family on the internet is a good thing, no matter the gender of the person on the recieving end and accusing end.

This poor woman has recieved all kinds of responses, ranging from the useful to the plain bizarre. I don`t think I am in a position to tell her to leave her husband or try to reconcile. What most of us don`t realize is that because of her marital trauma, this woman is unstable at the moment. In such a state, she might get carried away by someone`s advice and make a decision that she may regret for the rest of her life. I for one, do not consider myself able to make judgments on her case based on a 500 word article full of inconsistencies which was, by her own admission, written in desperation.

Irfan.

I don`t think the author`s immature-she would have been immature had she gone along with her initial anger and filed for divorce right away without weighing the pros and cons involved.
As to whether she should stay or leave him--it depends on for what she married on the first place? And what`s most important to her?
Most women despite knowing about their husband`s extra-marital activities actually choose to keep living that way for the social-standing that comes with marriage (atleast in my part of the world) I personally know of this woman who`s got proofs of her husband`s infidelity and yet she`s staying because her freedom is more important to her which she enjoys to a considerable extent with her husband--rather than going back to her parents home which she describes as more of a monastry.
So you have to decide on whats more important for you.
If you`re looking for love...than you must leave him though looking for another husband as some ppl have suggested won`t be any good coz the institution of marriage kills all love(Thats only the animalisitic passionate love that dies...the other not so intense love which is more of the kind of love you have for your dog or your siblings etc grows)

BUT if you stick around on the hope that he`ll change....you`ll be in for a bigger misery coz men are incorrigible once the get addicted to illicit love. Like someone already said extreme religiousity is the only thing that can cure that which is unlikely in most cases. Otherwise if a man`s cheated you once, he`ll cheat you forever.
So if you plan to stay, you`ll have to bear in your mind that he WILL not change (as far as his sexual adventures are concerned). The best that can be done is not to make marriage the centre of your universe and pursue your work, your passions and your own life.

Do that while you`re deciding...and take your time to decide....you`ll be more clear-headed once the emotional-stress you`re under right now subsides.
r3d

Reminds me of the real life story of this florida woman who put her brand new mercedes up for sale for $20. The buyer bought it, and asked questions later. On being asked why she ``sold`` the car at this price, she told him she was going through a divorce and so their assets were being split and her husband really wanted to have the car and this was her way of getting even!! Moral: people do the most irrational things in matters involving family disputes.

So, I think irfanhamid is right in questioning the sense behind making this a jerry springer show on chowk when emma also wants to stay married. But then perhaps, emma is not her real name, and she is seeking some moral support from strangers like we all are on chowk without this moral support in any way affecting her real life. Who knows? only Emma knows.

#134: I disagree with both your suggestion and approach. Even if she plans to reconcile(a mistake), then she should care ``less`` about his mood`s highs and lows. She should fully exercise her self expression and heartfelt sentiments. Despite the above suggestion, I defintely see immaturity on Emma`s end. To disconnect with the rest of the world and to put herself into house arrest is not showing any love towards the control freak or herself. It`s an indication that how much control that man has on her. Who orders anyone with this kind of stuff in today`s day and age? Let me rephrase my question: who follows such kind of demands made by a control freak?

ZahraJ,

I said that she should ask the story to be taken off the front page because she said she wanted to reconcile with her husband. It was not (for me) a man vs woman issue. My point was, and is, that if she wants reconciliation then she should try not to offend him. If she doesn`t want reconciliation then she could have said whatever she wanted about him and his parents without it affecting the situation overmuch.

I would have made the same suggestion to her husband had he written a similar article about her and then expressed a desire to reconcile as she has done.

Irfan.