Am I Insane?

ok Emma,

this sounds like something i had in the past...my advice to u is to leave him and try to find another man..even if he is not pakistani...any muslim...
if u husband has money which he does he will find lots of other girls willing to sleep with him and seems like that`s all he needs and thats fine...have self respect to actually do whats best for u...and leave him
if he is not willing to work on the marriage, why should u?

good luck :)

Dina.

Typical watta satta story. When you guys will grow up. What your brother has to do with it? He should try to live his own life. Remember he will not feed you forever and if he wants to send his wife back its not out of your love, its just an excuse to get out of his own marriage. So pack your bags if you want to and live your own life if thats what you feel like doing. Think about yourself only.

well !! i want to give you just a few points what i extracted from my life,,,,,, first of all you need to be brave enough to confront the situations,,, what will happen at max??? if your brother asks his wife to leave because of you then its his fault not yours, he should act maturely..... second thing is that what will you get in the end if u r not willing to leave that husband? why are you degrading yourself? if you wont respect yourself no one else would....who is he ? just a HUSBAND!! which are taken as gods by us(girls) although they dont deserve....if someone cant care for you cant understand you then u dont need to mess ur life....dont waste your life.... you may find someone better than him, he doesnt deserve you,,,, and what will u get by sacrificing? will your brother and bhabi give you a gold medal? NO they would never. Go and find ways in your life, marriage is not life, its just a part of life,,,,like many other things some and go,,,few things suite you and few dont.... every one makes mistakes,,,,its not a big problem.... but you should not let yourself suffer from a wrong decision,,,if you find u made a wrong decision then just correct it by anyway, dont suffer. you get life only once dont waste it cuz of someone who does not want to understand you. time passes leaving behind regrets !!! try to find other colors of life which may be more beautiful than those which you are trying for in vain.

Emma Nisa,

I believe that oppression is worse than death. I do not mean to say that if being oppressed one must commit suicide. For liberty comes in many forms. There is no one way that leads to salvation, but rather there are many. But one thing is certain. And that is if one wills to attain liberty one must either escape oppression or marginalize as it means to or affects one`s way of life. For the ultimate goal of humankind is to make oneself better foremost mentally and spiritually.

Life is hard enough for women in an egoistic patriarchical society like Pakistan where women despite Islam purportedly prevailing are abused in the name of religion and denied their rights. Islam in its pure essence is pro liberty, pro life, pro salvation.

It is my view that women have rights which foremost God has sanctified for them to possess. Who is a man to dictate a woman to turn against her self, her freedom, her transcendence? Who is a man to counter what God has deemed just and fair?

Towards this end, if you feel that you are being maltreated consult our glorious Quran and involve people whose thoughts are well grounded in `deen`. Make the effort and InshaAllah God will guide you and those in your company who will to work righteousness. Most of the time, both husband and wife need to make sacrifices and bend their natures formed from conforming casually to societal norms without many times heeding to their normative meaning of either being right or wrong. But one thing remains certain. And that is that the oppressor, if any, must either retreat or give in. The best thing you can do at this time is to follow the truth in you that is your deep most certainty.

May God help you, guide you, protect you. But above all, may God be by you.

Peace!

Irfan,
I won`t be revisiting this board and the subject under discussion.
Forgot to add that in my last post.
Take Care.

Irfan:

:)

Thank god I am a policy maker where I am and things are quite functional and under control. We all have our own style of viewing life and conducting things the way we want to, but I try to avoid making random comments without any base. Unfortunately, I do not have the luxury of time to provide real life examples of all the scenarios I have come across. Therefore, I try to put in a few words summarizing the gist (I am not sure if I am good at that). I can see how certain remarks or statements can be misread, but having an extensive experience in very challenging practical world (a personal choice) gives me an edge over you. I guess you are still in school which has its own challenges, but practical life is quite different.

Interestingly, I have ran into quite a few couples (non-pakistanis) who`ve shared with me the reason behind not having any kids. They did not think that their parents had set a good example for them to follow. Both of them happened to be my colleagues; and I have worked with them for an extensive period of time. Apparently, they were the nicest people around the block. Still, they were very upfront about their deficiencies and accepted those. That says something about the character.

Somehow, I feel that many men will have issues with this write-up since it states a woman`s outburst. Whether it is a rationally put together argument or an outburst, it is a form of communication. This is not an account of a well put together love story or a memoir. It leans towards an outburst. And an outburst can be in any form or shape. Obviously, it will have some loop holes but it will reveal a few things that may ring a bell.

Lastly, my view on the eastern culture may be completely different from yours. What I see as a positive in the western culture may be the most unappealing factor to you. What you may see as the most positive attribute of the eastern culture may mean nothing to me. So, do not try to trivialize .... I detest that trait.

ZahraJ,

I`ll accept as a given your argument that self-respect and courage are completely independant of each other. But her own admission that she is bending over backwards to `keep` him is damning evidence of her dependance, lack of courage and (this is going to hurt) the fact that even those of us raised abroad have flaws, inspite of the excellent sociocultural environment provided. I won`t even go into how sophisticated this woman is, her article is available for public viewing.

Might I suggest you actually do a bit of thinking before riling against `our` culture, men, society at large and any or everything people say. My personal opinion (which may be wrong) is that you do not argue issues, you argue people. Do you seriously believe that the `maternal marriage police` is a phenomenon restricted to our culture? There are numerous references to mothers pushing daughters (and sons) to marry in western pop culture entertainment (during 10 years we were subjected to Friends, in which Monica`s mother wouldn`t get off the girl`s back about getting married). I have a colleague who is doing a doctorate, she constantly complains of her mother`s heckling her to get married. Such rants against our culture and assorted other things don`t make you look progressive, `modern` or enlightened; just makes it clear you have an axe to grind and will rub it against anything whatever the merits or otherwise. I admit that much is wrong with our culture, and that much is right with western cultures; but there are also some good things about our cultures and some bad about western values. Real life is full of grey areas, there are no crisp blacks and whites, rights or wrongs.

Who gets to decide if someone is `good` enough to sire children? You? Me? The government? Auto-control wouldn`t work, because I`m sure no one will say to himself/herself ``I`m too messy, I shouldn`t have kids``. You would have fit right in to Nazi Germany, where the superior race (your good people or übermenschen) would have been allowed to multiply while the üntermenschen (the messy ones) would have slowly died out. Good thing you weren`t a policymaker or little Albert`s parents might never have concieved and the world would have been deprived of Einstein`s genius.

Irfan.

PS: Sorry about the long post, but try as I might I couldn`t shorten it.

Irfan:

One can lose sight of self respect but still be brave and courageous. These attributes are independent of each other.

By the way, just a corrrection or addition to my previous post, I also know some people who did not choose to get into marital relationship after one bad experience. Since our culture has its own flaws therefore often times people do not think through what they are getting into and just take a plunge for the heck of it - why? Because their friends are getting married or their mother has asked them to. This is an ideal example of cluelessness which is prevalent amongst both men and women from our culture.

Our culture blackmails women in various ways. One was exactly what Nazar wrote in his post. What if she never finds another person? What if she finds someone worse than her first husband? Well, life is about taking chances but moving ahead. How about the man in the picture may not be able to find another decent woman? How about his second wife may be a crook in disguise? How about the 2nd wife may cheat on her husband?

Marriage is just a step in life, like many other steps. For some it is the ultimate whereas for others it`s just a step. But it`s important from the perspective of selecting a right companion. Those who want to have kids must look into the character of the man they are marrying. If you have nothing to appreciate in your husband then why would you like him to be the father of your child? Anyone who thinks that children are the source of keeping the husband and wife together should be ashamed of themselves and the poor logic they have been carrying in their back pocket. If two people have no respect for each other then it`s sinful to even think of having kids. The world is already full of messy people. In my strong opinion, only nice and good people should think of multiplying. The rest should adopt if possible or pray for their sins. This may sound a weird philosophy, but I am a strong believer of that.

Lastly, the women who lean on their husbands for security can definitely have issues when the blanket starts to walk away. They feel exposed and shelterless. That must be a horrible feeling. Probably, they are willing to sacrifice their self esteem to get that ``temporary refuge``. Not sure.

Re: # 139 (ZahraJ),

I am not against her leaving her husband, neither am I in favor of it. Of course, because you have seen the good results from getting out of unhappy marriages in people close to you, so you obviously have a defined point-of-view to it all.

But please, do not call the writer of this article a courageous woman, that would be a disservice to the many brave women out there who break stereotypes everyday. This woman, however, is willing to go to great lengths to keep her husband, who to her is like a security blanket. You yourself stated (#47) that it seems she has no self-respect and thus expecting respect from her husband is unrealistic.

Irfan.

Irfan noone will be reading this article..Im not stupid, i know this will not help him in anyway. My in laws and Jawad are not Internet savvy, Jawad only uses his laptop for msn messenger to keep in touch with his girlfriends in pakistan. If any of them read it, thats a different matter.
Thank you Zahra , r3dlipstick for your advice. I dont know what to say, as i am not doing anything at the moment just taking things as they come. I can only make my decision now, if Jawad asks me to leave one more time, i will ask him to take my back to my parents, maybe the job, cvar and mobile was just excuses to bide him time.

Re: # 138 Irfan:
I understand your take but I have a different way of seeing this matter since I have seen quite a few very close friends and some cousins go through the same turmoil. All of them got out of it and were happier and more peaceful than in their early circumstances. There`s an old saying that the tie or the relationship between husband - wife is the closest relationship but it is the most sensitive one as well. Keeping the sensitivity aspect in mind, I would say if one side is heartbroken and feels mistreated whereas the other wants to get out of that relationship then there is very little to keep the bond together. I am from the school of thought that if two people are not cut out for each other or are not happy with each other then they should not waste a single minute and go their own way to find their bliss. That may mean different things for different people. Amongst many of my close friends, remarriage has happened and their lives have been stable and better than the hell they went through in their 1st marriage. I have also heard about remarriage of two of my aunts in 1960s. I think being well educated was highly well regarded. Also, both of them were independent and career oriented women. This was despite the fact that my late nana jaan was a religious man.

By the way, I do not see anything wrong with everyone expressing their notion about the issue under discussion. In that regard, I would not consider Emma as ``poor woman.`` From that aspect, I would say that she is both courageous and bold woman and in order to secure more compliments, I would strongly recommend to her to get her phone connected, buy a brand new car, look for a decent opportunity that will assist her in her career development and growth. In addition to that, start developing some goals and establish herself first before falling for any insecure and control freak Pakistani male`s trap. Lastly, she has to keep a very important aspect in mind that a Pakistani man is not that open minded to accept and tolerate assertive women who like to flourish in their careers. There are definitely exceptions but those are few and far between. I also think she should charge the phone`s reconnection fee as well as the new car on Jawad`s credit card. After all, she is still his wife and intends to lean in that direction. Why not exercise her ``rights`` :)? Just kidding.

Re: # 135 (ZahraJ),

I didn`t shouldn`t express her feelings towards him, just that maybe airing dirty laundry in such a public manner is inappropriate. Her cause would be served much better by saying all this to him rather than to us. And anyway you can`t say that slandering someone`s family on the internet is a good thing, no matter the gender of the person on the recieving end and accusing end.

This poor woman has recieved all kinds of responses, ranging from the useful to the plain bizarre. I don`t think I am in a position to tell her to leave her husband or try to reconcile. What most of us don`t realize is that because of her marital trauma, this woman is unstable at the moment. In such a state, she might get carried away by someone`s advice and make a decision that she may regret for the rest of her life. I for one, do not consider myself able to make judgments on her case based on a 500 word article full of inconsistencies which was, by her own admission, written in desperation.

Irfan.

I don`t think the author`s immature-she would have been immature had she gone along with her initial anger and filed for divorce right away without weighing the pros and cons involved.
As to whether she should stay or leave him--it depends on for what she married on the first place? And what`s most important to her?
Most women despite knowing about their husband`s extra-marital activities actually choose to keep living that way for the social-standing that comes with marriage (atleast in my part of the world) I personally know of this woman who`s got proofs of her husband`s infidelity and yet she`s staying because her freedom is more important to her which she enjoys to a considerable extent with her husband--rather than going back to her parents home which she describes as more of a monastry.
So you have to decide on whats more important for you.
If you`re looking for love...than you must leave him though looking for another husband as some ppl have suggested won`t be any good coz the institution of marriage kills all love(Thats only the animalisitic passionate love that dies...the other not so intense love which is more of the kind of love you have for your dog or your siblings etc grows)

BUT if you stick around on the hope that he`ll change....you`ll be in for a bigger misery coz men are incorrigible once the get addicted to illicit love. Like someone already said extreme religiousity is the only thing that can cure that which is unlikely in most cases. Otherwise if a man`s cheated you once, he`ll cheat you forever.
So if you plan to stay, you`ll have to bear in your mind that he WILL not change (as far as his sexual adventures are concerned). The best that can be done is not to make marriage the centre of your universe and pursue your work, your passions and your own life.

Do that while you`re deciding...and take your time to decide....you`ll be more clear-headed once the emotional-stress you`re under right now subsides.
r3d

Reminds me of the real life story of this florida woman who put her brand new mercedes up for sale for $20. The buyer bought it, and asked questions later. On being asked why she ``sold`` the car at this price, she told him she was going through a divorce and so their assets were being split and her husband really wanted to have the car and this was her way of getting even!! Moral: people do the most irrational things in matters involving family disputes.

So, I think irfanhamid is right in questioning the sense behind making this a jerry springer show on chowk when emma also wants to stay married. But then perhaps, emma is not her real name, and she is seeking some moral support from strangers like we all are on chowk without this moral support in any way affecting her real life. Who knows? only Emma knows.

#134: I disagree with both your suggestion and approach. Even if she plans to reconcile(a mistake), then she should care ``less`` about his mood`s highs and lows. She should fully exercise her self expression and heartfelt sentiments. Despite the above suggestion, I defintely see immaturity on Emma`s end. To disconnect with the rest of the world and to put herself into house arrest is not showing any love towards the control freak or herself. It`s an indication that how much control that man has on her. Who orders anyone with this kind of stuff in today`s day and age? Let me rephrase my question: who follows such kind of demands made by a control freak?

ZahraJ,

I said that she should ask the story to be taken off the front page because she said she wanted to reconcile with her husband. It was not (for me) a man vs woman issue. My point was, and is, that if she wants reconciliation then she should try not to offend him. If she doesn`t want reconciliation then she could have said whatever she wanted about him and his parents without it affecting the situation overmuch.

I would have made the same suggestion to her husband had he written a similar article about her and then expressed a desire to reconcile as she has done.

Irfan.

Emma - now is the time to put your law degree to practice!

Re: # 128

>Whats a job, i can find one again if things dont work out, but to give him excuses, im not gonna do that.
<

Some of us, your well-wishers did not mean sitting under tube-light 8-2-5 or hiding behind sun workstation for good mulah. I ment working on something which wets your heart and soul. It could be simple as help to your brother`s kids in their homework, if you really enjoy. If you find solace and strength five time namaz might help. Do something which celeberate and realize the god inside us.

>Since the restrictions he hasnt been home yet, but i think he is just doing this to make me suffer more, which i am willing to, in return for a decent marriage...which is not the case at the moment. I am taking one step at a time, so what if i left my job and gave up my car, its worth it in the end if it brings him back to me, which even i doubt, but atleast i will not have a gulity conscious , that i did not try everything.
<

Why this victimhood? What is a decent marriage? Long time back I convinced myself if I have to love someone truely then I cannot escape from being a swami. I am still far from being one. The swami who celeberates divinity in one`s own body, mind and soul. If I am empowered then only I can empower others with my my caring, love etc. If I cannot value myself how does it matter what value I put on an idea ie marriage. Just imagine, you are suffering ie your mind, inner calling, words and actions are not in line, and now in this state your have a jeev gowing in your womb, what kind of thought vibes it will receive . . . one of pain, suffering. We parents need to help our kids to be free, confident and blissful. If this union does not help in having healthy kids, then we have harmed not just ourselves but the future generation and world around us. It`s Adharma!

BTW, do not get disheartened, we all are in the same boat. We all are in a way and partially divorced from our true potential. It`s a constant struggle to keep the integrity in tact. This marriage to god within us is always under stress, due to weired sense of I and the desires coming out of the misunderstanding. In a way you are lucky that you are leaning your lesson very early. You are well equipped to handle so the problem has appeared in front of you. Be Blissful, confident and free ... free of past. It`s your birthright. Dont allow anyone take it away from you.

I hope I was helpful. Be happy! Keep faith in yourself alive!

Zahra #127
What I want to suggest is that both sides had equal opportunity to assess (and interact with) each other and are almost equally responsible for this mess.

I would have sympathy with Emma as she appears to have been young when she got married (straight out of law school), consulted her mother, and even then got into this mess. Indian (and I believe other desi) girls do tend to depend on advice from their family.

My advice would still be for her to take divorce as a last option (after seeking mediation, counseling etc). Unfortunately remarriage is not an easy task in our society (unless she is adventurous enough to explore getting married to a gora! which I would strongly recommend, some of us desi males can be stupid idiots)

Emma Nisa, you are insane. Forget life, fertility will leave you behind. What will you do then? Dump him and find a new sperm donor. Reading in between lines I feel that you are making this like a jilted love except there never was any love. You did not know him and he probably played his moves cleverly. He knows that you will not leave him because then brother will lose wife (in whatever minor but important way if not literally). Do your job only if it helps you ensnare your next husband. Your all decisions should be focussed on leaving this loser and finding next husband.

Dear Emz:

I earlier put my response (#39). If its format (as a “prescribed” treatment) made you upset in any way, I am sorry about that. But I very much meant the message therein (and I was NOT trivializing your problems).

I will keep this message simple:

(1) Before you decide to forgive and forget, read this letter (especially the last two paragraphs).

(2) Buy from a book store (or check out from a library) Dr. Laura’s book ``Ten Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives``, and read Chapter 10 right away (rest of the book as time permits).

(3) Then, think through all aspects of your problem from scratch and see what solution you come up with on your own.

I would also advice that you pay attention to what Dr. Lokraj said (#42 and #113). He may be a REAL doctor.

I wish you all the best. The road ahead may not be easy, but may be the ONLY way.

BeeJay

Thanks again for all your comments.
I have also been thinking the same where do his demands stop...and when will he actually begin trying aswell.
Since the restrictions he hasnt been home yet, but i think he is just doing this to make me suffer more, which i am willing to, in return for a decent marriage...which is not the case at the moment. I am taking one step at a time, so what if i left my job and gave up my car, its worth it in the end if it brings him back to me, which even i doubt, but atleast i will not have a gulity conscious , that i did not try everything.
Whats a job, i can find one again if things dont work out, but to give him excuses, im not gonna do that.

#125: I disagree with you that her in-laws and the control freak knew her prior to her marriage because of the common tie. She could not have known him as well.

The saddest element in this story is Emma`s lack of interest in her own well being
and pursuing a control freak. For what? For financial security? Is it worth it? Where is the self-esteem here? Do not confuse that with pride or ego. Probably, she follows the school of thought that once a woman marries a guy = a jerk then she has to stick to that poor decision. This is so absurd :(

Next you will read that this guy has asked Emma to take hijab by using a black chador of 6 yards and wear a ninja-burqah on top. While Emma would be complying with the control freak`s orders, the hubby would be fooling around with god`s creation on some exotic island.

Emma, Fast burst ... hope it is helpful if it is hurtful it`s because of my poor English. Still foreign to me.

It seems you are all sacrificing Ammaa. Please watch Swades, it is as much Geeta and Kaveri Amma`s story as much Mohan`s. How they transformed and bring out change in Mohan and through him in the whole Charanpur. They did it without sacrificing self esteem and the life purpose ... Geeta`s ``lagan for padhana`` and living in the village-India. That is the womb each one of us (male ya female) carry. If we are loyal to this invisible womb then we are happy, more capable to love the significant other and the world around us.

You are really a good person. From your story I learnt a little more about myself. I used to think feminine thought as weakness, something which pulls man down. When I saw Swades with my kids (all boys) and wife, kids and even I wanted to skip lovy-dubby songs and scenes and even could overcome my dear wife`s loud protests. But later my wife made us see them. While seeing them I thought about you ... how you would react .. how you would empower your husband with loving word, legal wizardy (like Geeta`s computational wizardy... please understand that we find heart wetting beauty in those intellectual persuits) or how you would tell your husband ``hathelia khali mehandi ke liye nahin hoti hain.`` Believe me these self respecting Geeta`s words and keeping her foot down is empowering not just for herself but also Mohan. Raam and AnjaniPutra Hanuman are Sita`s creation. Unforgiving and strict Jane in the west is in her own way the empowering Sita who created Raams of the past. Women have to become first self respecting Jijamata to bring evolved, women respecting and Dharma propagating Shivaji-soul to their womb.

You know the level of consciousness you are dealing with (your husband). Since you love your husband you have vested interest in his growth. Like Kaveriamma you know to which day trip he needs to be sent. Keep the faith alive!

Emma,
I am wondering if there is not another side of this story. While Jawad and his parents knew you `closely` for few years, you also had close interaction with his family for few years. It appears that both of you erred in your assessment of each other.
Final decision on this subject is yours, however few suggestions -
1. Unless this gets resolved, do not plan to have a child. That will limit your options.
2. Do not take hasty decision like leaving your job, or opting for divorce.
3. If you finally had to move apart, and still intend to find another partner, widen your acceptability criteria and take decisions as soon as possible.

well said storyteller. Giving somebody an opportunity and space to oppress u is assisting oppression.

dear emma,
i would like to share some observations. when a woman talks.....that is, when she shares her pain with people, it indicates a very early stage on the road to divorce, if she is headed that way. when she knows what she wants thats when you hear very little talk. there is nothing left to discuss, dissect, air out...or hold up to the light of the sun. living your truth requires no elaboration.

there is an ayah in the quran (please take my word for it because i do not recall the surah or the exact number/s). it could be understood this way.....on the Day, every oppressed soul will be brought before her Lord and He will ask her, `` was not my earth wide enough for you to escape your oppressor.``

abbottonian: good point...except i dont think ms. nisa needs to come back to pakistan to get a job. seems to me she already has a nice job that takes her for week long trips to europe and so forth.

jay: this is your doctor. get back into your padded cell...now!! and I have ordered those dirty pictures of modi and thakeray ripped off your padded cell walls. and you dont watch it, i will put you back on 200 volt electric shock therapy treatment (last time you wet your lungi when we did that to you!!)

jay,

...... even though i am a big fan of yours, i think you are a little off base on this one ....... may i redirect you to freethinker`s article on democracy ?............. leave poor emma alone - she has enough problems without you confusing her ..........

regards

Emma,

You may be aware that pak army is providing protection to sui gas works on a charge basis. It may be time that women like you also may have to seek protection. Following is an item from dawn of today, please talk to the police for protection, you can possibly coordinate the system for women in situation like yours, with the sword of honour hanging over your head.


Police `tax`



A new practice among policemen posted in the Defence Housing Authority in Karachi is charging Rs500 per under-construction house every month. They turn up on motorcycles fitted with a siren to claim their levy which ends after the house is completed and a ``completion levy`` is given one final time. Since no arrests have been made, one wonders with whom and where the money ends up.

RASOOL BAKHSH

Karachi

Well Emma,
it was a pretty depressing story. but then South Asia is full of such tales. i also hail from Pakistan and am in UK since september. Here i ve seen how ``men`` have been able to deconstruct their masculinity and express their feelings towards their belowed openly, without any fear. I guess Jawad is pretty normal considering the hostility in his sub culture where he has been brought up. This is how men are, insecure, dominating, unreasonable, egoistic and so on. But then this is normal in that part of the world.
I wouls suggest u to read ``surviving men`` by Shobha De and see how he has explained Indian men. The description is extremely true for their Pakistani counterparts as well.
My advice to u would be that think rationally and not emotionally. You have one life time and dont waste it in these traumas. I dont find any reason for u leaving your job, getting your mobile disconnected and selling your car for someone who does not care and just wants to deprive u of your strengths of being independent.
Pakistan is a pretty diverse society and i ve met with single mothers who are coping up very well and doing excellent in their respective professions. Even if u dont want to go back, look for a job and start living in karachi, lahore or islamabad. these places are pretty metropolitain and would accomodate u well. The face of women in these cities is not the same that u come across at Pind Dadan Khan. Let meknow and i ll give u cotacts of a few female friends wo can look after u once u move to any of these places. The best for u, however, is go back and live ur life to the fullest. This is the dilemma of expatriate pakistani s in the western countries that they are not western and cant be as dumb as Pakistani women was and is (in some cases) expected to be.
take care and look after urself and remember, all the appeasement that Europe did towards Hitler before World War II, did not make him a better man.
cheers
abbottonian

In my opinion, this story should not be taken off the front page.
Just because a man can be petty does not mean that a woman has to suppress her feelings and self expression.
Which century is this?

So at last the real emma has appeared, trying to portray the travails of a pakistani woman as if it is something similar to that of others in non-muslim countries. Take it from me amma, according to pak law a man can have 4 wives. Try and read about one samia sarwar, she wanted to divorce her husband and she was killed by her own father, and no case was filed, because no crime was committed. Think of who is your ``Wali``, try to have nightmares about honour killings.
You are so divorced from pakreality that it is a tragic joke. Follow the path of Samia Sarwar in the name of pak honour, in the name of pak interactors on chowk who are leading you to the honour killing path.

Emma,

My sincere advice to you would be to kindly ask the chowk editors to remove this article from their site (not just from the front page but also from archives). If you are really serious about reconciliation with your husband then trust me you don`t want him to ever read this piece. We (men) are very petty and take offence at the smallest of things. In this article you have accused him (and even more importantly his family) of being hostile and unsophisticated. Even if your accusations have merit, no man would appreciate having his marital dirty laundry paraded and his parents badmouthed on the internet. Think also of your bhabhi, how would she react and feel if/when she finds out what you think of her parents, she who, as you state has nothing to do with this unfortunate affair. There is a time for speaking one`s mind and there is a time for being diplomatic, in my humble opinion, now is the time for the latter.

Sincerely,
Irfan.

=== Interact Removed ===

conceding to demands like sitting at home,selling off ur car etc. is not a wise thing to do.I know you are trying to save your marriage at all costs,but you should know within your heart whether this marriage is worth saving(for you)?
Someone floated the idea of having a baby.....This would be the most foolish thing to do in these circumstances.Try to get him into direct honest communication and dont get into playing games.Compromising to this extent may work today,but will seal your fate for the rest of your life.
Wishing you all the best.

Good luck, Emma. it looks like things will work out for you.

EMMA:

you are a brave sould with a kind heart.

you did the right thing by writing it up on chowk. at times when there`s no way forward in a tunnel of one`s pesonal life, sharing provides the spark to keep moving ahead. and i tell you what, if he doesnt wish to live with you; you shouldnt either. life means more. more of every thing and yes, there still will be life after or without him which will offer you more disappointments, accomplishments, sanity and insanity...just about everything!

and this final line`s for you:

``Freedome lies outside of the fence we build for ourselves``

good luck and you shouldnt fail!

``Like most Pakistani men, Jawad is a very liberal guy when it comes to himself. He drinks, takes his occasional weed, eyes up gals.I discover these traits after our marriage. ``

The above is the most revealing set of lines in the whole article...indeed they should have been the preamble to this artcile......

Hello.
I am Emma, I dont think i need to produce my Birth Ceritificate , if anyone in doubt let me know i will fax it to you.
Im sorry i could not reply to any of the interacts because i was unaware the article had been published, and as weekends for me, mean to sit at home and cry about the mess...i missed out on a helluva lot.
Well thank you all for erm ..giving me your views on the whole situation.
Believe me this is not funny a fictional story, it is about my life even chowk staff sent me a mail saying...are you really that naive???
Why did i put it on the web you ask...its called Desperate measures guys. Anything which would make me see light...or learn from other experiences. Believe me if real life when you tell someone your tragedy..most people get a kick out of it..and have all sorts to say..or just go around spreading it..like its about Bradd Pitt & Jennifer Anistons break up. Ive learnt from experience...its not sympathy you get..just calls asking you so was there at a family wedding?..did he talk to you..its like a Soap episode..where everyone is waiting for me to turn around and slap a guest saying you Bi%``* i know your pregnant with my hubby`s child...*Scream *HOW could you to this to me then run out.
Trust me people have said on my face..so when are the fireworks gonna go start..??
Anyway thats my reason for publishing the article.

So i did expect reactions like this..as for my being stubborn..and snotty all i have to say is maybe i was so...before i got married..so he knew my personality but that is not a very strong trait..it is certainly not teh case NOW....i CHANGED...ok..maybe once he left ...i do not look down on his family..believe me i do respect his Parents iv never looked down on them..but all i was saying was they still blame me...They will not once admit to me there son is doing anything wrong it kind of makes them feel insecure if they side with me..which is all i need.
As for his side of the story i have had many people speak to him who came back with this answer that..he just DOESNT want to live with me...he just thinks we are too different..no he doesnt have any other story..thats why i find it so hard...
Does he have another woman YES. but he is so secretive..i just dont have any proof..
As for my brother that was his initial reaction...now he asking me to come back , Jawad is not worth it. Bhabi knows the whole situation now, her and Bhai will not be separating or anything silly like that,she will not suffer..even she has spoken to Jawad. He has now decided to think about it.He has asked me to leave work, sell my car and disconnect my mobile...he thought i would not agree to his demands..but i HAVE..after this he will think whether it can work or not.
Talk about physical abuse...not his style..its the mind, heart and soul he wants to damage.
This is not a Dear Abby story..this is just someone pouring out their heart to chowkies, just because she knows other people may have been in the same situation just like ana and HP have mentioned. I would like to know how to deal with it from others point of view.
Trust me this was an honest question whether i am insane to stick around.
I have left work now am at home, Jawad will be coming home on the weekend..lets see how it goes...
Thank you for your responses. Sorry i could not interact earlier.

a for apple

j for delusional?

This article and the responses from pakistanis have set the high standard for pakistani pretenses. In the land of tripple talak here is the talk of a man asking his wife to divorce him. The law graduate from USA practicing in pakistan, that is the limit, is there any kind of relevance in any area for US laws in pakistan. A few eeks ago there was a news item, students from achison college raped the 18 year old wife of an 50 year old teacher at atchison college. Then the talk of a 27 year old pakistani globe trotting the post 9/11 world.

How stupid of the pak interactors not to mention the hoodood. The level of sofistry if beyond contempt.

Hamidm:

Please do not add fuel to the fire by providing dysfunctional links. That`s very impolite.

If all of the tens of millions of Syeds, Pirzadas et al swarming around: so-called descendants of Prophet Mohammad in South Asia are indeed His family members than He must have had some super extraordinary reproductive family members.

This exponential lineage expansion must be one of the socio-biological wonders still to be deciphered. The riddle becomes even more grotesque by taking into account that Prophet Mohammad had no male heir.

Even if one does accept some indirect linkage, some weird genomic connection how come all of those had settled in Indo-Pak subcontinent?

And if one does accept the classifications given by South Asian Syeds than the next question should be: are we not all descended through the same Adam and Even and does this fact not make all of us Syed?

Donald Trump in his autobiography “Trump: The Art of the deal” writes about “Lucky Sperm Club” = those who just happen to be born in the right mileu by the virtue of their parents. Syeds, assuming them correct in their description, by that definition have taken this club into absurdum.

So Emma Bibi, what’s so special to be [fake] syed while claiming to be “sophisticated”, if I may ask?

Thanks

Samina,

The answer is to be found within the treasure chest that is the unplugged.

Umer M

Emma,

I`m sorry if you were offended. It was intended to be a joke.

Umer M.

Umer,

Please explain your claim that all answers reflect experiential knowledge and not the inclusion of common sense and daily doses of Oprah and Dr. Phil?

Okay okay,

Soulat, You`re obviously disturbed by what I have done. And I hate disturbing people so I`ll end this prank now.

People, Soulat`s the `real` author behind this. I am, indeed, a fake.

Now please carry on with your advice and inputs.

Umer M.

Don`t steal my brainchild. I will have Emma patented.
Nisa is my daughter`s name and I can post her birth certificate. You are a pretender Umer!

Emma = M&M

Ah,

So the plot thickens...

Umer eMma.

Umer,

You write:

``The fact is this: we all have this desire to be psychologists but the vast majority of us cannot go beyond our own experiences. Therefore, the advice we dispence with is one which we have experienced ourselves. So by posing this question and seeking `help` one get`s to know more about the historical/social makeup of the advice dispenser. ``

Duh.

But what does that say about the writer?
:)

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Come on Drumz,

You can do better than that. I know who you are. Get back to where you were a few minutes ago.

The fact is this: we all have this desire to be psychologists but the vast majority of us cannot go beyond our own experiences. Therefore, the advice we dispence with is one which we have experienced ourselves. So by posing this question and seeking `help` one get`s to know more about the historical/social makeup of the advice dispenser.

I thank you.
Umer M

Okay everyone, Ill admit it, Im the real author of this sh1t.

I thought it would be fun to play with everyone after a long absense.

Lets go back to talking about kashmere now.

#91 by UmerMurtaza on March 6, 2005 10:27am PT
Okay boys and goils,

``I admit it. It was me. I was just playing a trick on the adults and trying to work out how you guys would behave. It`s been an interesting experiment.``

Here goes my ambition to replace Ann Landers!
You are just jealous of my talent!

Umer,

*

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sunday morning with toronto times

dear emma:

don`t blame you if your more confused than ever...so here is the low down:)

11 comments were for leaving your husband

2 for outright divorce

17 puts the onus on you to decide the next step

46 were comments on comments on comments (normal for chowk)

1 for getting even

8 too vague and confusing to place for me ( and the writers too)

1 suggested you get tested for HIV aids ( his amsterdam visits?)

1 asked you to lower your expectation (whatever it meant)

2 agreed with mrs. hamidm

and...drum roll please

one more person agreed with me: seek counselling


there you have it all thus fard...you`re welcome!

have a good sunday!

lve

t

Re:hamidm

I think Mrs. Hamidm is right about her intuition that this letter is a fake. Ms. Emma (if that is her real name) might have penned it with the right mix of sex, religion and relationships to push all the buttons of us chowkies. While we twist in the wind, she may be having a laugh at our expense. It is time for the author to show up and tell us her reactions to our reactions!!

Re: # 87

.... i think ms nadia makes a very valid point

Where, where, where the discussion is converging is a point of no return. And all senior chowkies with all due respect are enthusiastically engaged in the topic. Well if a person’s personal turmoil in life is published then there is no reason to scratch the details from every nick of word and define racism, bloodline etc. There may be thousands of couples in all other casts of IndoPak Subcontinent living similar unhappy lives with broken relations etc. And so many of them are prejudiced as well while making new relations to extent of ignorance. Examples are Qutab Shahi Malik Awans, Some Rajpoots, Yousuf Zais and many more…Though with passage of time and thinking process attitude dilution among the known family names and their lines are happening as well.
Being in a Syed family I have seen that parents are hesitant to marry their daughters to non-syeds, not because their blood line will be altered or things like that but if you observe then Shias are very staunch and their faith is very much different from sunnis right starting from Wazoo, Taharat, Namaz, Roza Timings, Khums and rituals associated to Haj. Okay many of people don’t go through these daily/ once in life time rituals. But what about 2.15 months of Moharram, Safar and 15 days of Rabi-ul-awal which they pass with distinct rituals. A person coming from that thing in mind from childhood can’t be compatible with other families “jaha.n iss ka tasawar bhi nahi hai…”
Okay now Gham to Dil mai.n hota hai. So even if you donot show or describe it out then the history of Islam which is told to shia kids are literally different from what sunnis are told. Chalo iss ko bhi chorr do…Islam ka bilkul hi nam mat lo…Then both sides if leave religion than ...”Kam Chal Sakta Hai”
And Syeds do marry Non Syeds and this is a bonafied fatwa of their religious leader “Imam Khomeni” that Syed/Non Syed can marry. And merely Syed are not proud of their Nisbat to Muhammad (P.B.U.H) but they are proud to know the truth of religion carried in centuries so as to a non Syed is on equal basis.
Anyways this is a baseless thing to say what is on right let time decide it… But God has pointed …”Inna ka Shainaka Howal Abtar” chahey woh Abou Jahal ho Ya Abou Lehab.
Aur Nishan chahey Ummat ho, Friendly Sahaba ho Ya Olad ho Maqsad Deen ko sath lay kar chalna hai agar Chaho tou…

This appears a case of love at first sight and to hell with everything else. But more than anything, its a case of human relations with inate feelings of love, socialising, hate and group dominance.

Jawad was no stranger to you as his sister had been your bhabi long enough to mother two kids. Hence you all had the opportunity to know that family: it was not out of the blue marriage betweem a lib women and a socially backward family. This is a contradiction.

You mentioned your Syed lineage and the reservations of your parents, yet they brought a non Syed for their son, whose brother later married you, and as per you, accepted readily by the percieved reluctant parents. This is another paradox.

You married Jawad of your own like, but allowed the parents to make the final decision. What are you trying to do now? Ratify your feelings through this forum and not blame yourself.

Dear Lady, life is no bed of roses. It is a learning curve with no straight lines. If at all this is what is happening in reality than please pause and think and do not allow your rational thoughts to be biased by the views of us all, who do not even know you.

So take charge of your life. Do not complicate the drama by dragging on your bhabi, or depriving two kids of their mother/father.

Forever an optimist, a good hug and a tender kiss with a displayed caring attitude can work wonders. If we as a couple had to heed to the advise of gender campaigners, we would have been divorced a hundred times.As always, the hate transformed to love miraculously.

Wish you God`s Speed

Cheerios

A useful link :

DearAbby

You people are all a bunch of nuts. Your brother says of his wife ``she will pack up and leave``, indicating his lack of commitment to marriage. As for your ``Syed`` family that wont marry outside their ``caste`` - with all due respect, you almost certainly had a liar among your ancestors (like virtually every ``Syed`` or ``Qureshi`` in Pakistan). And even if someone can demonstrate direct lieage to the prophet muhammed (which even fellows living in mecca cant prove anyway), so bloody what?

Surely your husband cant be worse than this dysfunctional family you were raised in. So you might as well enjoy it - the more nuts the merrier.

#79 by ZahraJ on March 5, 2005 10:31pm PT
Zahra,

Okay my last post was a quick response. In this case, there seems to be lots egos involved. You got to read her story again and you will see that she was not ready to respect him and his family from the very beginning and that set off the whole thing. Now I think she wants to change that because she still thinks she loves him. I think she needs to try and save her marriage until she knows that it is over.

Casino etc. are lame stories. People go to these places for fun and if she was in good relations from the very begining, she could have gone with him too.

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#79 by ZahraJ on March 5, 2005 10:31pm PT


No way Zahra! We were actually civil about the whole thing. After years of marriage, we realized that we were headed in different directions. We did some soul searching and felt that we did not love each other enough to stay in marriage. Still, it was a tough decision for both of us. Needless to say; we never had our families involved in the whole thing.
We are still friends and very good friends too.
let`s not talk about it any further. Thanks.

Nazar:

You need to understand the difference between assertive vs. aggressive. She is not at all aggressive from any angle. Yes, each woman with a backbone ought to be assertive! Some have it in their blood and some acquire it as they grow up.

Sir, you are still a naive man!

Nope, women ain`t underdogs! In your culture that may be true, but don`t you dare to make a sweeping remark like that. Our women are trapped by their environments. Majority hesitates to take charge of their lives. They need to overcome fears and hurdles. It requires a risk taking attitude and the desire to take a plunge. This comes with practice! Do not you ever categorize them as underdogs! The world is not equal to the ruthlessness prevalent in your neck of the woods.

HP:

Did you treat your 1st wife the way Jawad is treating Emma?

Nb & ZahraJ # 75 & #76

Ok. My last sentence sounded cruel. But believe me, this is how majority of marriages cling on in our areas.

Marriage may be a necessity, requirement, ritual or an obligation but it is not necessarily a BLISS.

The kind of problem that Emma is having, it is common in marriages - just look around - even your parents, uncles, others. Marriage is supposed to be a difficult enterprise requiring a lot of sacrifice. Months without sex - it happens, can happen. These are those silent fights that husbands and wives have. It is probably more unbearable when in 30s.

Here we have only Emma`s story.

Let me do some loud thinking. Emma, a New Yorker, comes out as a confidant, intelligent person who knows what she wants. She is a no-nonsense woman and can take decisions. She is aggressive.

Jawad, as it seems, is brought up on limited resources. He has struggled. He is a timid Mama`s boy - wants to achieve something, wants to prove something, is not sure of himself. He is overawed by Emma and does not know how to handle an aggressive stronger personality.

Forgive me what for what I am going to say now. The above husband & wife profile will bring out a Jawad exactly as described in the article. Almost frigid, even suffering from temporary impotence in bed when faced with an agressive wife. (Zaraj, it is impossible to rape a man where all sex gets worked up in mind)

I have all the respect for your compassion. Women are underdogs. But here, we are not getting the full picture.

nhk

I was playing basketball with my son this afternoon and he complained that I wasn’t paying attention. True, I wasn’t; because I was thinking of you! You see I understand you cry for help because I know what you are talking about you are in my thoughts. I have sent many people to asylum but I think I need to save you from going insane. This, I think will be my atonement.
Somebody said people who have never married wouldn’t know what marriage is and I will further add that People who have not gone thru a divorce don’t know what divorce is.

Did you see how these people have begun to disbelieve you? From sympathy to now people are suggesting that your story is all made up. I know they are not right. Even the weekend warrior Ms. ZahraJ is out here in full force with Mukhataran mai to steal this board from you. (Btw, She was right. how could you have kids w/o your hubby…well you actually could but…)

What they don’t understand is that you still love Jawad. I think that makes you miserable and you wanna try harder to make it work for your love’s sake. In my previous posts and now, I would again suggest that your approach to your marriage was wrong from the very beginning. However, you were honest enough to write about that and now it is time for you to reverse you approach.
For starter, sit back and stop calling him. Think about him but try not being obsessive all the time. Time is the biggest healer. Given some space, you two would begin to think about the whole affair rationally and would come to some decision that would be right for you.
You marriage is more than half way over and getting back in relationship again, would be a slow process.
Good Luck and I will have more advice for you in the morning.

Re: # 74
nhk,
What a terrible idea that she should have a child and make a dificult situation even worse for herself, and give a child such an unhappy start in life.
Emma, one more thing-it doesn`t matter what situation anyone else is in; yours is the only situation that matters to you. There is no point in comparisons here. Similarly, when you make a decision, yours is the only happiness that should matter to you, you must be selfish, because no one else can get you out of this.

Re: # 74

Mohtaram Nazar Hyat Khan Saheb:

How should she become a mother of a sweet kid when her husband in not giving her the right attention? The woman is openly saying that she has not slept with her husband in 8 months. Did you miss the bombastic opening ? Was this an intentional oversight or you did not want to accept it?

Do you have any recommendations for her on how to rape this Jawad guy? I am sorry for taking that route, but if you are engaging someone in an activity without their consent then it is ``RAPE``. If the man is saying to her that she should leave him then she should. On the other end, if she had the same sentiments then he should have stepped back and left her. That is an ideal scenario of equality and mutual respect.

How do you know that the husband does not have multiple ``legit`` or ``illegit`` cute kids shopping at some malls in Amsterdam?

Sir, you are a very naive man despite all your adventurous stories on Chowk!

My initial impulse would be `Dump the bastaxd``. But NO.

I have seen too many husband-wife squabbles to pronounce judgement after listening to only one side.

The fact that Emma`s brother has already threatened a reciprocal action against his wife, who is absosultely innocent, is highly disturbing.

This is not a `Mukhtaran Bibi` environment. Everyone is well educated, well travelled and well off. It is a complex cultural mish-mash - Partly living in free western norms and partly subscribing to the Mandi Bahauddin Syndrome.

No. Emma could also be at fault. We do not know all the facts. Jawad says ``Emma please leave me?``

This is not the language used by the Guys who we think Jawad is? - Emma could end up with a worst husband.

Just become a mother of a little sweet kid and all pieces should fall togather.

nhk

Hamid,

The kids will survive-if we stop treating it like a Bollywood tamasha. Better to be raised in a stable home than one full of messed up dynamics. Meanwhile, kudos to the grownups for facing these decisions like adults.

In this case, the writer asked and chowk readers delivered...in manifold ways...

btw, how scared are you of Mrs. Hamid interacting on chowk?

Re: # 60

saminasha,

........... not to make light of it, but unless it is a case of spousal abuse - mental or physical -marital problems and divorce are way - i mean, waaaay - down on the list of issues that people face ............ sure it is agonizing for the parties involved, but it is not a major social, poilitical or religious issue .......financial? maybe ........... in short, it is lufangebazi and entertainment for voyeurs and oprah fans ............

.......... having been married for almost two decades, i know a lot of people (pakis) who are divorced or are going through a divorce .......(somehow we think that desis are immune from these problems - but it is not true anymore and it is no big whup).............. right now i know of three-four couples who are splitting up after fifteen to twenty years of marrige - i hear one story from mrs hamidm and her circle of cackling hens, another from the randy roosters, and yet another from the mullah brigade !........... the truth lies somewhere in between ......... and to tell you the truth, it is only the kids who really suffer - the adults get over it very very quickly ...............

.......... that`s why i simply can`t get worked up over ms emma`s silly little problem - not getting laid for eight months is not the end of the world (sorry)...........

Hamid Sahib,

How surprising you share the most durable of isms with your neocon brothers...the devaluation of all disciplines not included in the institutions of hard science....listen, I hear Larry Summers is looking for a writer...

From reading the various interactions from Pakistani women - both married and umarried - on this site, it seems as there is an almost universal dislike/hatred of male marriage prospects, a mixed reaction towards husbands, and a great deal of liking for fathers........

Based on this, one would have to say that Pakstani men make terrible marriage candidates, average husbands and excellent fathers...........

Apparently they get better with age (and experience), I guess.........By the time their own daughters get to a marrying age, they sort things out about themselves, and realize what terrible marraige candidates they, themselves, were at that age. And apparently warn (perhaps over-warn) their daughters to watch out for such marraige candidates..........

And the cycle continues........till the newly wed guy, becomes a dad........

Hamidm:

Itna Emma Emma Kurnae Kee Bajae` why don`t you go and talk to her hubby? I think she may need someone outside of her family and friends who can look into this issue in an objective manner and straighten the thorn. You can probably join her hubby on a trip to Amsterdam and see what the hell is that Jawad guy up to? Probably, you can get him drunk and get to the bottom of this dilemma. How`s that for something on the lines of practicality? Let`s take Chowk to the next step of evolution :)

Happy Thinking!!!

(*~*)

Emma,

I have to say only the wearer knows where the shoe pinches. Only you can decide what you have to do and what needs to be done. Education like a law degree gives insight, reasoning and logical thinking ability and you need to use it honey.
Try to logically and critically asess the situation and then make whatever decision you want to make.
I think this post is an attempt to understand or gain different perspective but I have to tell you from experience, only you know what needs to be done with your life , no one else.

Dear Emma,

......... i am sorry, but it seems that from here on out your troubles will be overshadowed by the debate which will take off in three directions :

1. feminism - and the fact that most men are insensitive neanderthals
2. the place of women in islam - which is somewhere between a maggot and a slug
3. psychobabbel - led by va hospital and medicare shrinks

.......... as i had suggested earlier, you would have been better of writing to dear abby ............

Ref Romair #58

[... I think one should be cautious of quickly jumping to or suiggesting divorce. Since, it is quite hard to undo a divorce.....specifically within a Muslim marriage.........]

It is not all that hard to undo an Islamic divorce. From what I have read, the woman needs to marry another person, have that marriage consummated, get divorced from that husband, and she is then free to marry her first husband. I read somewhere here on Chowk how a mother-in-law, upon reconciliation between her son and divorced daughter-in-law, had her gardener marry the girl, ensured that the gardener consummated the marriage, had him divorce the girl, and then had her son marry his ex-wife again.

So, the procedure seems to be simple: Emma flies off to Pakistan; her husband Jawad sends her an SMS on her cellphone stating ``Talaq, talaq, talaq``; Emma marries the first man off the street (or the club if she wants a person with a higher socio-economic standing) and goes into a hotel room with him (her choice whether it is a five-star hotel or the local No-Tell Motel) and gets laid; has her new-found husband tell her ``talaq, talaq, talaq``; and flies back to the US and has a local mullah officiate at a nikkah with Jawad.

I am NOT insensitive to poor Emma`s plight but YOUR comment about how hard it is to undo a Muslim divorce is just plain wrong as I have outlined the process for doing it.

[Where is Shankar when he is needed. He seems to show up everywhere he is not needed. And never shows up where he could be of some use...............]

The Headshrinker will claim he is driving his Jaguar around on Altamont Street in Bombay and trying to counsel his old classmates the Ambanis now that Reliance Telecom has been found to be liable for hundreds of crores of rupees for illegally routing international calls as local calls on India`s BSNL network. THAT kind of ruling is certainly more traumatic than a simple case of spousal abuse and would take precedence in the Headshrinker`s busy practice.

We are all entitled to respect from our partners. Yes, you may have made mistakes in your choices, but that`s no reason for you to be punished for the rest of your life. Good luck with whatever you decide, but the worst you can do is nothing at all.

I don`t think you are insane. However, I question the sanity of some of the interactions you have received! I find it interesting that many of the presumably Pakistani folks who have responded to your post have chosen a triage approach, if you will, to your situation. Instead of offering constructive comments or advice, they choose to point out that there are people worse off than you in the world.

That is hardly fair.

My cultural awareness of Pakistani-Muslim family values is somewhat limited. That said, it is my opinion that if your husband wants a divorce, he should have to file it himself.

You mentioned your husband`s business trips to Amsterdam, casino memberships, etc.. All of these are indicators that he has a lifestyle that condones sexual promiscuity. I think 8 months of abstinence is a good thing in your case. Now that sufficient time has passed since you have been to bed with him, you can go forward and get an HIV test and a full battery of STD tests and have faith in the results.

You deserve better.

Good luck.

Re: # 59

........... from the peanut gallery

wow!.... now we are getting somewhere ......

p.s. i showed this letter to mrs hamidm and she thinks it is a hoax......... and who am i to question her woman`s intuition ........ mrs hamidm does not have any use for the internet and the cell phone and the other day expressed great surprise at the news that the soviet union had fallen apart, but she knows people ................ ``no self-respecting educated modern woman would put up with crap like this unless she is a nutcase - there is something fishy about ms. emma whatshername ........it is not as if she is being threatened and abused by her husband ...............and what are you doing reading crap like this - i thought you were doing research on kitchenaid appliances``, she admonished with a crinkle of that botox-rejuvnated nose ............ to add insult to injury, my daughter chimed in with, ``abu, pakistani men are such loosers, but the women deserve them``.............. and then they took off to the mall to buy yet more shoes leaving me to ponder emma`s dilemma .................

Madame Emma Nisa:

With due respect, your case is closed. No more discussions on those lines. I am sure you must have appreciated some points and kicked out others. Your board will be taken over now.

Ta Ta...

Since bro` Hamidm referred to this story, therefore I decided to post it here. I love this guy`s writings. It`s men like him that make me ``danwa` dol/double minded`` on my singlehood stance.

When Rapists Walk Free
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Published: March 5, 2005
One of the gutsiest people on earth is Mukhtaran Bibi. And after this week, she`ll need
that courage just to survive.

Mukhtaran, a tall, slim young woman who never attended school as a child, lives in a poor
and remote village in the Punjab area of Pakistan. As part of a village dispute in 2002,
a tribal council decided to punish her family by sentencing her to be gang-raped. She
begged and cried, but four of her neighbors immediately stripped her and carried out the
sentence. Then her tormenters made her walk home naked while her father tried to
shield her from the eyes of 300 villagers. Mukhtaran was meant to be so shamed that she
would commit suicide. But in a society where women are supposed to be soft and helpless,
she proved indescribably tough, and she found the courage to live. She demanded the
prosecution of her attackers, and six were sent to death row.She received $8,300 in compensation and used it to start two schools in the village, one for boys and one for girls, because she feels that education is the best way to change attitudes like those that led to the attack on her. Illiterate herself, she then enrolled in her own elementary school.

I visited Mukhtaran in her village in September and wrote a column about her. Readers
responded with an avalanche of mail, including 1,300 donations for Mukhtaran totaling
$133,000. The money arrived just in time, for Mukhtaran`s schools had run out of funds. She had sold her family`s cow to keep them open because she believes so passionately in the redemptive power of education. Now that cash from readers has put the schools on a sound financial footing again. And Mercy Corps, a first-rate American aid group already active in Pakistan, has agreed to assist Mukhtaran in spending the money wisely. The next step will be to start an ambulance service for the area so sick or injured villagers can get to a hospital.

Down the road, Mukhtaran says, she will try to start her own aid group to battle honor
killings. And even though she lives in a remote village without electricity, she has
galvanized her supporters to launch a Web site: www.mukhtarmai.com. (Although her legal
name is Mukhtaran Bibi, she is known in the Pakistani press by a variant, Mukhtar Mai).
Until two days ago, she was thriving. Then - disaster.

A Pakistani court overturned the death sentences of all six men convicted in the attack
on her and ordered five of them freed. They are her neighbors and will be living
alongside her. Mukhtaran was in the courthouse and collapsed in tears, fearful of the
risk this brings to her family.

``Yes, there is danger,`` she said by telephone afterward. ``We are afraid for our lives,
but we will face whatever fate brings for us.``

Mukhtaran, not the kind of woman to squander money on herself by flying, even when she
has access to $133,000, took an exhausting 12-hour bus ride to Islamabad yesterday to
appeal to the Supreme Court. Mercy Corps will help keep her in a safe location, and those
donations from readers may keep her alive for the time being. But for the long term,
Mukhtaran has always said she wants to stay in her village, whatever the risk, because
that`s where she can make the most difference.

I had planned to be in Pakistan this week to write a follow-up column about Mukhtaran.
But after a month`s wait, the Pakistani government has refused to give me a visa,
presumably out of fear that I would write more about Pakistani nuclear peddling. (Hmm, a
good idea. ...) Mukhtaran`s life illuminates what will be the central moral challenge of this century, the brutality that is the lot of so many women and girls in poor countries. For starters, because of inattention to maternal health, a woman dies in childbirth in the developing world every minute.

In Pakistan, if a woman reports a rape, four Muslim men must generally act as witnesses
before she can prove her case. Otherwise, she risks being charged with fornication or
adultery - and suffering a public whipping and long imprisonment. Mukhtaran is a hero. She suffered what in her society was the most extreme shame imaginable - and emerged as a symbol of virtue. She has taken a sordid story of perennial poverty, gang rape and judicial brutality and inspired us with her faith in the power of education - and her hope.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/05/opinion/05kristof.html
E-mail: nicholas@nytimes.com

Re: # 55

Ana,

I`m praying Karma doesnt pass Depends Sahib by but bestows him his rightful place....amoebadom....if one fails to suceed, one must try try again! ;)

Emma,

Welcome to Chowk. Your piece brings up many good points.

There are male interactors who will try to point out that there are women who suffer more than you. These are the same men who have not professed lifting a single finger to ameliorate the eco/pol/soc/cult factors that lead to the exploitation of women. Then there are men who will tell you to stop being so ``selfish`` because having expectations of equality, mutuality and respect as agreed on b/n both partners is ``class`` discrimination. To the latter I will point out that many of us were/are raised by men coming from working class backgrounds who are the exemplar of support and love-and are feminists.

Wanting and having a life and a partner who works with you towards respect, love and mutuality is a worthy goal-one that every human being is entitled to. Dont let anyone tell you otherwise. Get counseling alone if your spouse wont come with you. Hopefully he will come around. As others have suggested, the answers will come from you and your spouse.

Good luck and all the best.

Subedar

Little Beta Emma, what I wonder is …

Before your in-laws became your susral they had already been in-laws of your brother and your relatives for some years. Which means, neither Jawad nor his family were any stranger to you and your family.
You knew or at least supposed to know the level of sophistication, intellectual standard, monetary affluence, family values, everything of your susral walas along with the number of course meals they are used to.
Then why did you approve such a “backward “ husband and family to start with?

I mean it was not at all a blind date, you opted all this voluntarily and gladly because … according to my expert opinion … in some aspects you were slightly superior to them and intentionally or unconsciously thought that you could keep them under your high heels.

Jawad initial display of satisfaction inflated your head even further.

Moreover you have a penchant to exploit your genitals as reward-penalty mechanism … to use sex as a whip and candy.

But, now after a while, Jawad has lost interest in you … primarily because of your high nose … you have lost your charm and sheen for him. He has started writing you on his left ball and discovered that life could be lived rather enjoyed even without having you around. Something you hadn’t expected at all and have extreme difficulties to digest … you have got a sort of emotional constipation.

You would have no problem dissolving this marriage had it been your initiative. Now you feel rejected by the one who should have considered himself lucky to have you. Jawad has turned the table on you.

You don’t want to leave, because it would mean defeat from someone who is in your weird world inferior to you, but you want to continue only on your own conditions. Jawad don’t offer you that. You are ambivalent. No desperate. Try to avenge, teach them a lesson … don’t know how to do … out of that frustration came this lousy piece.

And Emma beta, it is only meant to serve the following purposes …
1. To demonstrate to your hubby and his family that you are capable enough to strip them naked … on internet … wow
2. Try to show them the huge difference in the leagues you two belong to individually as well as family wise … wow … Jawad and his parents should “realize” what special pearl they have got
3. To convey the message that their daughter will be in trouble had they not “mend” their ways

I am pretty doubtful if it will help.

So what should you do?
Should I be honest … my sincere most advice to you would be … come down to earth … give respect first before demanding respect … don’t underestimate people … try to be insaan … don’t play over smart …

A bit of humility, a little bit modesty … and everything will be fine.
You don’t seem to be totally without brain … though I am not sure about the size and quality of heart … have some cardiac surgery, some emotional transplantation and everything will be alright.

I think it is a bit dangerous to play psychiatrist on sensitive issues like this. Everyone is going to let out their own internal feelings, joys and frustrations and advise the person. I am not even sure if it is a good idea to seek advice in this manner.......

Those who have viewed or been in good marriages, will probably say, ``give it one more chance.`` Those who have viewed or been in abusive marriages, might say, ``get out immediately.`` Those who have not been married, at all, might say, ``if the person isn`t your ideal, find someone else.``

It seems like the writer can probably get a divorce anytime she wants. She has suggested that her husband keeps saying this to her, himself. It doesn`t seem like she is being physically harmed. She seems confused and under emotional stress. In such a situation, I think one should be cautious of quickly jumping to or suiggesting divorce. Since, it is quite hard to undo a divorce.....specifically within a Muslim marriage.........

At the very least, people advising her to, ``leave,`` should perhaps take it easy, and suggest to her to visit a professional psychiatrist first, and get some professional advice. Preferably a desi one, who can understand the cultural issues involved............

Where is Shankar when he is needed. He seems to show up everywhere he is not needed. And never shows up where he could be of some use...............

Dear Emma,

....... i don`t mean to belittle your pain and suffering, but in today`s nytimes kristoff writes about the very real tragedy of women in pakistan............. maybe you can draw some consolation and inspiration from the trials and tribulations of mukhtaran bibi :


``In Pakistan, if a woman reports a rape, four Muslim men must generally act as witnesses before she can prove her case. Otherwise, she risks being charged with fornication or adultery - and suffering a public whipping and long imprisonment.

Mukhtaran is a hero. She suffered what in her society was the most extreme shame imaginable - and emerged as a symbol of virtue. She has taken a sordid story of perennial poverty, gang rape and judicial brutality and inspired us with her faith in the power of education - and her hope. ``

``http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/05/opinion/05kristof.html?hp

............ compared to mukhtaran bibi`s ordeal, your problem seems trivial, doesn`t it ? ........... i am sure with folks like romair, malik and echo offering you advice you will be just fine :-)

I read your article - and understand only a little of the emotional turmoil you must feel inside you. Perhaps once there was love in your husbands heart for you but you deserve to be loved for your spirit and truth. I do not think he has given the person you are justice.

It does take two to tango but his callous wish to only leave - well, I think you should be strong and look beyond the need to be with someone - although it may seem to you as though you `need` anothers strength to bolster you the TRUTH is you need NO ONE but you and your faith.

Sing the song that is in your heart and you will find that you communicate to the universe and not just some man who has not yet awakened his soul and is busy living only for the material.

Have faith in children, in the beauty that surrounds you, in yourself. Dont wait - seize life by the throat and live it! :)

and who knows - in the process you may `discover` a real PCharming!

Best of luck.

bas yehi baaqi tha: the ignorant men of chowk.

this board will now take a plunge into the gluteus maximus of hateful people such as echoboom who will pronounce from there no one else but himself to be the standard-bearer of chowk and pak sar zameen.

these mentalities are what anyone with a modicum of sanity should keep away from. he speaks of bile, when it is there for everyone to see that his bile doesn`t just drip. . .it pours. . .and its toxicity follows from board to board. such a miserable life. the poster-child for what hate can do to a person. instant karma might even pass him by.

malik99: 49

And it certainly IS a Jerry-springer FrontPage now for sure. Just see how the munaafique & muurtids are proving their `maaadernity` & `free-thoughtingness`.

As I `ve always maintained the Ba Ba Blacksheep have proven to be the billi-kaa-goos of Pakistan. Never achieved anything worthwhile in their miserable life.

Whenever ``women`` , ``Islam`` or ``muslim`` article appear here it is smart to let the ``free-thought` and muunafiques & muurtids spleen their bile.

That is much more fun than ``replying``. It is turning into a show now.

Never in the history of mankind so many khisyaani bhillis have noached so few khambaas
with such speed and ferocity.

Re: # 39

One could have ignored this immature one. I would have responded with much more colorful langiage, except here there is a young girl also listening ...why do I care? ... may be because I do not have a daughter.

One will find on AM/FM dial in any metro in US and probably now in India as well, 100s of these divorce lawyers and councilors screaming dumping thier significant others and also dumping the content of their purse on their table. Deeper introspection will reveal that one needs to dump the thought tumor which leads to pain and disease in our relationship to the world. What we are seeking is not outside. Outside is not random things that happen to us, it is reflection of what we create inside. This inside creation happens for few on soccer field, others on hatha-yoga mat and few others in beautiful lisp code.

Go and read 26 again.

For others who think this should have been addressed to Dear Abby:

A lttle peek into childhood of Saddam, Stalin, Bin-Ladden, Bush and even your esteemed Chiknah or Indira Gandhi and you will see abuse and parental disfunctional marriage (man-woman relationship) and in many cases their own. To solve world`s problems created by these minds loving man-woman relationship and healthy family needs to be promoted. A paid consultant will produce 3000 pages and make $300K in two weeks but will not address root cause of disfunctional marriage and family behind every Columbine School tragedy.

It`s a tragedy that children born and raised in one country are made to feel that they really belong to another.

Such double-dipping can work extremely well for a man (boy - for, most such men will never mature on a normal time-line)

For a woman it cannot work, unless she also possesses a biological fetish for sexual slavery.

Dear Mother of Woman,

......... now that malik and echo and romair are here, this board will become a lot more interesting ............ i bet my bippy that pretty soon god, his prophet and his wives and concubines will soon be dragged into this fray ........... please be prepared to get an earful on aisha, khadeeja, miriam, zainab, hafsa and the rest of the harem ..........

.......... my bet, as usual, is on romair to win this battle ..............

... carry on......

The story is real or not it is has many loop holes...

If I am not wrong than `watta satta` could be a staunch marriage relationship when double marriages take place at same time. Whereas writer first claims herself victim of ``watta satta`` then says that she got married after proposal laid by brother of Bhabi much after her brother`s marriage.

So that time her parents must have observed the family as if they are compatible even not for their daughter but in accordance to general observation of extended family life style.

I will not dish out any advice to Emma because of this acute sense that this board is looking like a day time TV talk show where Jerry Springer`s audience is yelling and screaming and giving their advice to a bimbo sitting on the stage about which way she should make her decision.

But I will pick on one point ZahraJ brought up - the mistaken belief in superior bloodline or piety of Syeds to the point that they would not want their children to marry non-Syeds.

This is one of the most wretched and disgusting caste system in practice today. And to see the western educated young men and women succumbing to the same is truly baffeling. I have heard of the cases where the girls never got married because their parents could not find them a suitable syed.

Here is what I have to say to Syeds: Your alleged lineage not only goes all the way to Prophet (saw) but to Abu Jahal as well, who belonged to the tribe of Quraish too.

Emma:


You are not only a brilliant lawyer ( contrary to the self-effacing intro) , you are a brilliant `writer` as well.

Let me `explain`:
You laid the trap so nicely and all the westernised scum & flotsam made a beeline to it.

You must be laughing silly.

``Am I insane?`` Emma Nisa ? ``Umm-i Nisa``? Mother of Women.
Just thinking. Just thinking and enjoying the sight of flies stuck in the honey.

It seems a lot of Ba Ba Blacksheep are not that net-savvy.

In addition to my previous note, I would also say a few more things before I am out of here:

- Next time, do not ever promote your degree since it makes you look not only dumb but also silly. If you had that much respect and value for that degree then you would not have jumped on the first proposal of a ``successful businessman`` with dubious character. It is apparent that you had least respect for your degree. I had recently posted an article in my ilog where an average but well educated Pakistani woman scientist/researcher had included a clause in her marital contract that she intended to continue her work after marriage. This woman had not only dignity but also self-respect. Sorry, your article does not reveal any self-respect. Keeping that in mind, isn`t it unfair on your behalf to expect that from your husband because you keep his bed warm (one of the major reasons)?

- Everyone has his or her own life style. I agree that it can be very difficult if your in-laws are from different economic strata. Based on your story, it seems that you are living in a joint family. If not, then why would you care if your in-laws wear pants on the top and vice versa? Do not visit them frequently. Keep reasonable distance from them. If they have issues in accepting you then completely cut off.

- Using education or to put it crudely, a degree, in these times may be a temporary refuge. You need to conduct some introspection on who you are and where you want to be. You are definitely not in love with this man because of who he is. Why lie to yourself?
Had you been in love with this man then you would have had something decent to say on those lines. Apparently, you were in love with his status and his looks. Sorry, you wasted your education.

- Lastly, Syeds are no exception in any regard. Thanks for bursting the bubble of many Syeds who consider themselves a superior breed. There can be debauch men in both Syeds and non-Syeds. So you did not gain any sawab by marrying a debauch Syed. Probably, Muslims should start raising awareness on the presumed piety of the Syeds. The local mosques should be training muslims to watch out for these flase impressions!

With due respect, there is nothing in your article that makes me think that you are educated in the true sense. Yes, you have a degree like 1000s and probably 10,000s of women. What`s the big deal?

This was a harsh post. Sometimes, one has to conduct introspection after getting a serious jolt. If you have been taking life pretty easy then certain things may never stir up critical thinking. Probably, it`s time to take the plunge.

By the way, both River Dance and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang will be out this week or so. I hope you enjoy them and have a fresh mind to resolve your issues.

Best Wishes for a bright future.

emma:

my two bits

it is your body and it is your life...get some good professional help or counselling

lve

t

a few points here:

i felt this at the very beginning and i will say this now. i am not certain that this should have been brought to the front page. there was another article not too long ago where someone wrote about her marriage. people who do expose their personal lives, especially intimate or lack of intimate relations are going to receive a gamut of responses. . . and as the writer of this article will have found by now, they are not positive ones.

if the writer just wanted to have a hundred listening ears or so, again, at chowk, we aren`t just going to listen. this is an interact board, there will be plenty of interaction here. and again, writers who don`t write about their personal lives end up having their personal lives thrashed and trashed at this site.

the question was ``am i going insane?`` the answer was not necessarily ``dump the MC!`` (yes, i realize no one actually called him that). but again, that was the response that married people and single people gave, because they picked up on certain phrases more than others. emma`s words are good enough for them. i don`t believe i advocated either leaving or staying because quite simply it isn`t my place to do so. drawing from what the writer has said, i asked questions that would require plenty of thought before making such a serious decision. we are not experts here, and what we know here is superficial at best.

and another point, ``intelligent`` and ``successful`` people don`t always have all the answers and they do have emotions which wreak havoc with them. the writers, doctors, artists who have committed suicide, or remain clinically or manic depressed. . .just because emma is a lawyer who should know something about logical and analytical mind processes doesn`t mean that she cannot be affected by her emotions. i DO believe that the man asked her to marry him. and she said yes for various reasons. he asked for the commitment, he should shoulder the work and responsibility that comes with it, as should emma. and contrary to romarian thinking, problems such as the differences between families are not that easy to work through. i`ve seen that myself. but is that the reason that he wants her to leave him? we don`t really know why HE wants her to leave him. and that has been the weakest point in this article. that we are to infer. this obviously is not a balanced view, and the responses have been less than balanced themselves. and we are not talking about national politics and policies here. we`re talking about sexual politics, and intimate relations between two people.

is this real or is this fiction? is this live or is it memorex? the person who wrote the article knows this a helluva lot more than we do. it was and it was not. . . and if anything has made me think or wonder about this, it`s how the subject of marriage has been treated here and elsewhere on chowk. is this worth the exposition?

ana #29: Marriage is not something one should just jump in and out of, at a whim. It is serious business. At least for me. And it does take work. A lot of work. Something I was completely unaware of before I got married. One has to actually be married to gain that experience. It is a bit difficult to gain it second hand. One cannot learn how to swim, by just watching swimmers. One has to jump into the pool, one`s self................

Based on this, I think one should be very very careful before advising someone to just, ``dump the guy or girl.`` As a bachelor, I used to say the same thing, since my image of marraige was permanent bliss and happiness. That is easier said than done. And considering the case described here, a divorce could have reprucussions far beyond just the individual herself. Too many, ``gung-ho`` people are quick to jump to this conclusion. And end up messing up the situation even more.

If there is physical abuse involved, one should leave immediately. If there are physical affairs involved, one should consider leaving, and if one cannot forgive the person, then one should leave. However, other than that, one really has to think about it. ``There is no love,`` ``He doesn`t come home enough,`` ``His parents are rags to riches,`` etc. etc. are things that can be worked through.

And, in this case, she is educated, she has parents who are supporting her, she is in the USA, etc. etc. i.e. she has a certain amount of security, hence they guy cannot just destroy her, outright...............if she is confused, despite being relatively secure personally, then that means there is a chance to work it out..........

The writer is, herself, saying,``Perhaps I`m weak and confused, but I still love him.`` This obviously indicates a confused state of mind. Someone under a lot of pressure. Who is not sure what to do. In such a state of mind, to just say to the person, ``Dump the guy,`` which could set of a chain reaction, is not correct advice.

I think they should keep trying to work on it. And if she does dump him, then as I said, ``That is also a road you can try. However, judging by how quickly you made your initial decision to get married, you should be very careful in taking such a step............And be 100% sure that you want to take it............``

One should be extremely cautious and very very careful in telling someoone to leave a marriage. Especially on a website, where one doesn`t have all the facts, and the other person is in a confused state of mind....................

dear emma,

..........look at all the good people on chowk who are giving you all kinds of advice ......... their responses are a lot more entertaining than your ``dear abby`` letter and gives some insight into the fruits and nuts who inhabit the chowk ............ god knows, i have often wondered about my own sanity - no normal person gets up on saturday morning to argue with cyber ghosts ............

........ personally, i think you should listen to zahraj - the woman seems to have a good head on her shoulders .........

First thing,as a psychiatrist I can tell you that you are not insane(although this term is not used in Psychiatry)
This is the story of many Pakistani/Indian girls born and brought up in western/europian countries.
Real problem is the clash of cultures/values-children are becoming scape-goats of parents` wish to cling to their ``original`` cultural/religeous values and reaping the fruits of western materialism at the same time.
Forget about the ``satta-watta``thing and treat marriage as marriage which is a contract betwen two consenting adults.
Marital counselling or any other professional help to keep the marriage alive will only work if your husband is also willing.
If you have to take decision on your own,tell your brother and parents that it has nothing to do with your Bhabi and that you won`t go back to them and can look after yourself.
If you see no hope of reviving it dont wait for too long and start afresh.

Hi Emma, you sound so sad. You must be so angry, to be sharing your situation with strangers on chowk. I think you do know what you want to do, but I just want to add that people do not just change unless they have psychotherapy or a religious revelation of some sort. Neither seems to be likely, so make your decision, because life is passing you by.

It is sad that your and his parents are not being helpul to you are your marriage. I suggest you take professional help.
- Marriage/Couples counsellor(preferrably a SAsian/Paksistani) will systematically go through and analyze your situation and tell you if you can still work out your marriage.
- Contact a SAsian community organization, they will give you support, lead you on proper direction and most importantly tell you what your options are in your current situation. This link has info about SAsian orgs across US http://www.apnaghar.org/dv/sasian.shtml.
- You have got only this life to live, nobody got any postcards from heaven or hell, so think, meditate, find out what you want to do with your life, what you want from a marriage, and if your current marriage is right for you and if can still make this marriage work.
- Divorce is not end of the world, infact it could be a start of a responsible and mature new life. It should be easy for you to get a job in US considering that you grewup in US and have a law degree, on top of it you are young and have no kids!. I hope you are legally married under US civil law(not just islamic law) then it will cost him dearly to get a divorce in US, make him pay through his nose.
- Don`t be desperate, regain some sanity and selfesteem. Think for your self. Family and community is of no consequence and use if it could not help you in time of your crisis. Spend time with your friends, socialize...

The following comes to you ex gratia courtesy of DOCTOR BeeJay. (If it tastes more bitter compared to the normal dosages that I administer, sorry about that, but most EFFECTIVE medicines unfortunately are that way.)

Prescription:

1) Get this through your head very clearly - if you lived in USA and were brought up and educated under our educational system, you ARE an American inside (no matter what passport you carry or whether you cover your head or not) and you will always value your individual freedoms, no matter what baggage (emotional, cultural, whatever) the people around have been saddling you up with.

2) Dump the dork. Don’t even think about it for one minute!

3) Dump everybody else that advises you otherwise. (I am VERY serious.)

4) Make something of your life on your own. (Yes, you can do it!)

5) Become an example so others can develop some courage by watching your successful recovery from this condition, which should NEVER have been allowed to progress to this stage.

Diagnosis:

1) You are not insane; just stuck in an insane asylum.

2) The bozos around you need to come in for an evaluation right away (but are highly unlikely to do so).

---

Notes:

Diagnosis no.2 also applies to #15 “HP”, #23 “Romair”, and #26 “Baal”

#11 “Freethinker”: You were making sense until the last line. Shame on you – you KNOW two wrongs don’t make a right!

Dear Emma:

<< Belonging to an educated family unlike my in-laws (just rags to riches) I have a sophisticated way of doing things. It may seem normal to many of you but having three course meals with starters is not a trend with my in laws! They labelled me too modern and outgoing. New York maybe in America but for everyone but my in laws, they think it is in Pind Dhadan Khan. >>

Is it possible that this attitude of yours is one of the many reasons rupturing your marriage?? Three course meals with starters as a daily domestic routine really don’t seem normal to me. I can guarantee that it doesn’t seem normal to the overwhelming majority of the Pakistanis.
Three course meals with starters, two, if not three times a day, is not only gluttonous, it will surely make one weigh over 100 kgs in 6 months time. I hope [and assume] you are not obese.

Don’t you think that comments like these would repel most regardless of the gender of the addressee?

<< When I asked my brother what would happen if I decide to leave Jawad and how my decision would affect his marriage, he replied, “I love my wife and two daughters but I also love you, if you come back. She goes back!``>>

Your family supposed to be sophisticated!? The mindset of your brother vividly shows the level of sophistication in your family.

<< Yes I made the mistake of getting married in a “Watta Satta”. >>

Romair has already explained this stupid concept of Watta Satta. Your case cannot be sorted under this caption.

Finally, this is your version of the story. Would you like to add anything, I repeat any single thing that even you might have done wrong?

Are you Insane? The details available are not enough to have a decision.
Confused: Probably, if you have to make an opinion out of this write-up.
Snobbish: Sure. I can bet about it.

Take care

My first initial reaction to reading the story was...What an idiot? Dump him. But then i decided to rethink the whole issue through.

Like our most cliched quote goes ``tali do hathoon say bajti hai`` (a clap only happens with two hands). If there`s a Ying, there has to be a Yang. Questions that came to my mind were: ``Why was he so happy to parade you around?``. From my limited experience, guys really don`t do that, unless they`re really proud of their fiances or are in love with them. Ego is not that big a factor (IMHO) as you might think. If he seemed happy. than he must have been happy that you were in his life.

So you guys got married. What changed? Did you guys stop caring about the other, the same way. Did you whine too much? Marriage does mean that you WILL Start taking each other for granted. It takes a lot to make marriage work. If you expected Fireworks and romances, and candlelight dinners and so forth, boy you must have been disappointed. Did you think he would take you everywhere with you, maybe even that you could help him run the company?

My advice to you would be to first get along with his family first. Somehow your patronizing attitude is not the most conducive towards resolving this issue. So you`re an American. BIG DEAL! Get off the high horse. Either you shouldn`t have accepted a desi, but now since you have, learn what moves him rather than expecting him to change for you. When you join a new company, you don`t tell your bosses what to do. You lie low till you`re a part of the organization and then you propose your changes. I wonder what would happen if a newbie comes to a company and tells the boss, you`re an idiot and that`s not the way to do things? That`s basically the situation in a Pakistani household. Your in-laws are the CEO and you`re telling your CEO that you dont` know how to run things.

Also, See what problems have to be resolved? Ever thought of asking him why he wants to leave you. Ask nicely. A whiny tone is not the way to go. It drives a man away. Neither is constant badgering. SMS/email him that you`d like to talk to him and that he should call you when he`s not busy. Keep at it on a periodic basis until he complies and he will. Periodic does not mean everyday btw. Tell him you were thinking of him, that you miss YOUR Hubby and ask him what you have to change (and perhaps why he wants you to change) and what you want him to change in return. Read between the lines. Men are usually very hesitant at telling their real reasons.

Third, you don`t run to your previous company for advice when you get to a new job. Every new job is difficult, but so what. You have to adapt and learn. Similarly, you have to adapt to a new culture of the place. That`s how survival occurs. Adaptation and Change. Stop looking towards your family like a child. You`re a grown woman and a Lawyer. Why do you need these crutches or are you like the proverbial spoilt child ``It`s my party and i`ll cry if i want to`` kinda person. Take your life in your hands and stop running to others to help you resolve your own crises.

The woman is the head of the household in the desi culture? A new wife carries a lot of expectations on her shoulders. More than the husband, she is to be the one who has to be the `SuperWoman` in handling the household, children, guests, husband, everything in fact.

By the way, i don`t think your hubby`s on an Ego trip. I just think he`s finding it hard to communicate with you. Maybe he`s even hurt. Don`t know. No man ever runs away (especially one whose a successful business man) just like that.

and one more thing. Divorce is the easy way out. Haven`t you seen Americans. 50% divorce rate. You marry. You find out your hubby likes Marlboroughs more than Dunhills, you divorce the guy. That`s the psyche there.

You can try it out...but what i think:

1. Stop thinking you`re the martyr and how much you gave up for this guy and marriage.

2. Stop being the typical American ``EDUCATED`` Woman and actually find out what this marriage requires. Americans are notorious for being selfish and not looking at what the world requirements are. Try to be a little more Paki.

I wish you luck in whatever decision you take. Love does conquer all and if there`s a WILL to change things, than things WILL Change. See if you have it.

Hey Emma , you will do well to listen to Uncle HP aka Hacked Penis....he is rather harmless really....and got plenty of experience , being divorced once or twice for his inability to perform certain vital functions that...you know..women ideally expect from their husbands....

These days , poor old Uncle HP spends much of his time acting as a harmless agony uncle to young women such as yourself besides venting his vast-reservoir of impotent fury on those bloody hindians...

There are three reasons that I wanna give you more advice on your very public marriage woes.
1. I had a good time in the bar.
2. Nobody had asked my advice on marriage/divorce before.
3. I am the most experienced person on these issues on chowk.

One bonus reason is that I have nothing to dump on the RSS/BJP tonight. (Harish is stuck in some silly village.)

Your brother has nothing to do with your marriage. You never asked his advise when you got married. So stop running to him and don’t ruin his marriage because your marriage is bust. (Mostly by you, I must add.)
Why did you post your story on chowk? 1. You don’t have anybody to talk to or 2. You need sympathy and want the world to know how bad your husband is.
I am also skeptical of your story. Why is he asking you to leave but won’t initiate divorce himself? I really think you need to look at the mirror frequently.

Marriage is a difficult institution. You can have a cavalier attitude about it or you work on it to make it a success. Sometime men have to work on their marriages but the truth is, it is mostly women who end up working on their marriages.
First two years of any marriage are most demanding. That is even truer in our culture when a new bride has to learn a new family and has to deal with new relations. It is extremely tough and often takes a toll on marriage.
In your case, I keep thinking that may be you two stopped respecting each other very early in your marraige. Why did that happen? Do you have any idea? May be just may be you never asked to go with him on business trips politely.
One last thing I wanna say and I hope you would understand my point: divorce is not the end of the world. Sometime, good comes out of the bad situations and may be this is the time for you to move on. First few months after the divorce would be worst; you would think about your husband all the time but eventually whole thing would come to a pass.

My last advice to you, until I have more for you in the morning; don’t listen to Indian hillbillies!

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Re: # 29
Thank you Ana,
You needed to tell Romair that!
Its so annoying to get a ``KNOW IT ALL`` view on every F**king topic.
Go Ana.

Dear Miss Nisa,
I so totally empathize with you. You poor thing. Here`s a Hug!!! Extending a Cyber HUG@@
It must be extremely psychologically draining to stay in marriage with Jawad.
My dear, Your brother needs to understand that he cant punish another woman for his brother`s misdeeds. Your Bhabi has done nothing wrong, but it seems that her lot has probably improved by coming into your enlightened family. I am assuming that if you have a certain cultured way of doing things, so would your parents and brother.

You need to be strong!
Kick Jawad to the Curb!
File for divorce from him!
Get half of everything he owns!
Hit him where it would hurt him the most!
It is apparent that he has no love or respect for you.
Why stay with such a man!
You are wasting your time. You could be rid of him, and this time find a guy for yourself. Someone who would love you, care for you, and most of all respect you as a person.

My sister got a divorce from her good for nothing husband. I am so glad that she did. She is so much more happy now. She has no restrictions on her person. She comes and goes as she pleases. She works and spends her money as she pleases. She is working on her Law Degree and if she finds a decent man, so be it.

You too will find a man who is right for you.
You and Jawad, it seems live on two separate mental planes. Your education and independence threatens him.
Men like him tend to want to marry girls who are above their class, just to validate their own worth and masculinity, but your constant presence reminds him how inadequate he truly is and how low of a self esteem he has, thus those idiotic restrictions on you, critique of your behaviors, etc. He wants you to leave him because he wants to gain the satisfaction that I married this upperclass sophisticated educated girl and `` I left her``. What is she compared to me? Its a powertrip honey!

You need to talk to my sister. She married beneath her social class but his complexes turned the marriage intoa living hell for her.

Zahra Like always presents her unique and wonderful point of view.

Take heed to your own conscience. You are not responsible for your brother`s actions or your husbands. Stand behind your sister in law. She deserves your love and sympathy.

Leave Jawad and cut your losses!

Aap ka eik Pakistani Bhai

romair:

i have read your comments on abuse before, and apparently you have no concept of what psychological abuse means. yes, reading emma`s ``dear abby`` as hamid refers to it, we can infer that there is no physical abuse, but you seem to dismiss psychological abuse altogether.

emma does come across as being a little more on the snobbish side, but that needn`t necessarily cancel out the fact that this marriage is not what it was cut out to be. and yes, companionship can and does overrule love, but there is no companionship to speak of here. we don`t have his side of the story, but apparently there was never much companionship to begin with.

so why did she marry him? he was someone that came into her life without much hassle or heartache, she says. are those good enough reasons to marry someone? who are we to judge?

psychological abuse does go a little deeper than ``he doesn`t spend enough time with me``, or ``he`s always away on trips.`` what about infidelity? someone talked about how he shouldn`t have to change his lifestyle. marriages are about change and compromise. when you want to commit to someone, and then not really commit, there is a huge problem which cannot be worked out if both parties do not wish to do so. and it is something that breaks you when that is the case.

we have only emma`s word here. we do not know the other side of the story. but i don`t know if the other side will help much. he does not want to be with her anymore. that has been emphasised time and time again, and even if some of us are not married, we have been in relationships that were thought of as very strong commitments, relationships that some of us wished might be marriages. . . just because we are not married does not mean that we would say dump the man. i for one lived watching an unhappy marriage for much of my life. i`m not completely alien to the dynamic.

your education, it appears is more than lacking, and it is apparent through your posts just about everywhere. but unfortunately for us, and for you, that is not going to change.

Emma,
No, you are not insane, just confused and hesitant to take a big decision.

Most of us women, like Ana`s mom live with the false hope that `he` might change some day.
The reality is, `he` doesn`t change; `he` simply gets worse.

Your brother will eventually come around; don`t worry about his marriage and hold yourself responsible. Deal with the issue independent of his marriage.
Take hold of your life now. Believe in your self and have faith in the almighty.
Best of luck.
SK.

This was a hilarious read. I think you should be dating another guy. In order to piss your inlaws off, you should checkout the spring variety at Anne Taylor. There are some pretty colors and short (short) dresses. See if these steps has any impact on your husband and his family.

On a serious note, I am not sure if both of you were ready for marriage. Why would an educated woman be so thrilled that a guy wants to marry her? Also, this is the 2nd or 3rd time on Chowk when good looks were misread and they turned out to be deceptive looks. Why do women think that good looking guys cannot be jerks? A research conducted by the Society Of Die-Hard Singles has revealed that most of the good looking and apparently well rounded guys are weird creatures with dubious characters. Can anything be done in that regard? Very simple. Cleanse your environment of any extra elements/waste and move on.

Have a nice weekend!

Probably go out and watch River Dance or Chitty Chitty Bang Bang to change the mood. By the way, you must take your date with you and let the hubby know that :)

Best Wishes :)

You are an empowered woman in outwardly sense. A newzealander met in Indian restaurant in NJ, sent his news paper published story. What I thought might help was this:
It gives us space in our mind and thinking so that we have a more creative ability to understand the subtleties of existence. You feel very good about yourself. It gives you increased vitalit

I am sure there might be equivalent in Islaam or whatever followed in westPunjab. If not Yoga is not a religion in legion sense. It belongs to you as much as it belongs to an Inidian or religious Hindu.

Full story:
SEA BRIGHT — After years of practicing and then teaching yoga, Murray Dow turned to it as a business after using yoga’s soothing effect to work his way through a critical juncture in his life.

Dow, a native of New Zealand, had relocated to the United States, and in particular to this borough, to be near his daughter, Chelsea, 11, who lives in Rumson with her mother. He and his wife were getting divorced, his father had died, and he had sold the publishing company he had owned and operated for 20 years before moving to America. Life was upside down.

``I used that as an opportunity to reinvent myself,`` he said, explaining why he decided to follow his longtime interest in yoga and make it his career choice with a studio and spa in the borough.

The studio opened in a former computer store on Ocean Avenue in late June, and Dow said the turnout has not disappointed.

``It’s been living up to our expectations,`` he said.

Dow named his yoga studio Brahma for one of the trinity of three gods in Hindu tradition, along with Vishnu and Shiva.

``Brahma is the god of creation who created all things,`` he explained. ``Vishnu is the sustainer and Shiva is the destroyer. It signifies the cycle of life ... human evolution. We’re inspiring the creative aspect in all things on the human spirit.``

Dow has transformed the interior of the building the studio and spa occupies into a tranquil haven where classes are held and therapeutic massages — ``healing body work`` — are given.

He said he started from the ground up, putting in a new substructure, then a new ceiling and new floor tiles, and restoring an exposed brick wall along one side of the interior of the building.

``Being across from the ocean,`` he added, ``is a peaceful environment.``

Dow said he chose Sea Bright, where he has been living, because despite the empty stores and its ``sort of scruffy`` appearance, he could see revitalization on the horizon. He also felt his business could service the beach club community in the summer.

``Yoga simply means union — union of body, mind and spirit,`` Dow said of the teaching offered in his classes. ``Yoga developed about 6,000 years ago. It’s a holistic science.``

He said it involves asana, or posture, the physical aspect; pranayama, the yoga breathing technique, and meditation.

``With those three, you’re able to purify and strengthen the body, mind and spirit,`` he said. ``It brings synergy and harmony between them.

``The ultimate goal,`` he explained, ``is to raise our consciousness from a very gross state to a much more refined or subtle experience in evolution — raising our spirit essentially.

``It gives us space in our mind and thinking so that we have a more creative ability to understand the subtleties of existence,`` he said. ``You feel very good about yourself. It gives you increased vitality, increased flexibility. It improves digestion and bodily functions. It improves concentration and the ability to handle stress, and gives you peace of mind and the tools and ability to relax in this crazy world. That’s why so many people are doing it.``

Running, used by some to relax, is ``jarring`` by comparison and can cause physical problems, he continued. ``It’s not for everybody.``

``Yoga can be very gentle and restorative to very vigorous and athletic and everything in between,`` he noted.

Dow said he took up yoga as a teenager when he was very active in sports in New Zealand — cross country, rugby, cricket — and has been doing it for about 28 years now. He’s 46 today.

``In my teens, I discovered yoga really helped me with my flexibility,`` he said.

About six or seven years ago, Dow said, he discovered Swami Shantimurti while still living in New Zealand, and the swami introduced him to a very powerful integral yoga practice based around Swami Satyananda, of Bihar, India. He said he trained with Swami Shantimurti in New Zealand to become a certified yoga teacher and is registered in the United States now with The Yoga Alliance.

Brahma currently offers classes seven days a week, as early as 7:30 a.m. and as late as beginning at 7:30 p.m. on Tuesdays and Thursdays. In addition to regular classes, there are specialty classes such as classes for pregnant women, classes for teens, and classes for parent and child. They run for 75 or 90 minutes, begin at $19 and are less expensive in packages.

``You can come every day and as many times a day as you want,`` Dow said.

Dow came to the United States in early 2000. He said he met his ex-wife in 1988 while on a business trip to New York. He explained that friends he had met while sailing in New Zealand were from Rumson and introduced him to her — she was an American from Rumson — while he was here. They were married later that same year.

``She wanted to move back to the states in 1996,`` he said. ``I spent the next four years coming back and forth to visit Chelsea. After four years, I decided that wasn’t good enough.``

Swami Shantimurti helped him heal, with yoga, from the breakup of his marriage and the loss of his father, Dow said, and that turned into his new career.

``That was quite a transformation,`` he said. ``That brought it all together for me. The transformation I experienced is the type of transformation you experience with yoga. You go inward and you open up from the inside out.

``It teaches you to find the answers inside,`` he said. ``It’s really powerful and it works.

``People wouldn’t be doing it for 6,000 years if it didn’t work.``

Dear Emma,
i have all sympathy for you.
i wonder how you decided to marry in watta satta in 21th century .
there is many ups and downs in marriage life but that are not the kind you have mentioned.
The guy is not ready to live with you and announcing to every one about it.
that`s the limit.you are lucky to have no kid ,so secure yourself financially and leave him.
Let the brother find the solution himself.
You should learn `i come first`
be courgeous .
Good luck.

dear emma,

....... i don`t mean to sound unsympathetic but you can do whatever you want, just get off the front page quickly ........... as far as i am concerned anyone who asks for advice from total strangers is insane - so, if the straitjacket fits, wear it ............ sorry

chowk staff : are you really so desperate that you will publish anything ?....... if you are not careful you will soon be printing my ``conversations with god and other inanities`` ............ come to think of it, you are not alone in the publishing world - after all they printed and sold a gazillion copied of trash like ``tuesdays with morrie`` !!!!!!

Does this fit into the traditional Watta Satta?

I though Watta Satta was when the two pairs were put into an arranged marriage; one marriage securing the other. Not when one pair is already married. And their brother and sister propose to each other (i.e not arranged) after the fact.

Also, the following line doesn`t fit the Watta Satta model, ``When I asked my brother what would happen if I decide to leave Jawad and how my decision would affect his marriage, he replied, “ I love my wife and two daughters but I also love you, if you come back. She goes back!``

In a Watta Satta, if your husband divorced you, then your brother would divorce his wife. Not if you left your husband, yourself. Isn`t the whole purpose of a Watta Satta to ensure the husband doesn`t leave the wife, not the other way around............

I am quite suprised at the response of your brother. What kind of person leaves his wife and two daughters for no reason. What fault is it of theirs?

Here is my $.02: Marriage is tough for probably over 90% of the people. It has to be worked on. Love is over-rated. Companionship is far more important. The grass always seems greener on the other side. And the other girl or guy always seems more compatible. That doesn`t mean he/she really is.

If there is no physical abuse involved and/or no physical affairs involved, then one should work at it. By physical abuse, I also mean locking a person in the house, etc. etc. Not just hitting the person.

Most of the people who will give you advice, to quickly dump the guy are probably, more than likely, unmarried at the moment. That is also a road you can try. However, judging by how quickly you made your initial decision to get married, you should be very careful in taking such a step............And be 100% sure that you want to take it............

Emma, Whatever decision you take please keep this in mind that you are responsible for what is happening to you.You cant blame anyone else except yourself.If you continue to live in a marriage where you dont find any love,then this is obviously more than offset by the love that you have for your husband and also the altruistic satisfaction that you feel of saving your brothers marriage. You are in North America and your parents are supportive of you.So you have a choice.This is more than one can say about many other cases.

Hmm.... I did not think of responding to this post but looking at responses ranging from unsympathetic to hostile, I feel that I have to respond.

Dear Emma, clearly, you are at the receiving end here. There should be no doubt about that. As for your ``snobbery`` and your in-lawas calling you ``be-ghairat`` etc, it happens in a lot of cases but rarely results in a divorce. Usually, in these cases the husband and wife start living separately or a baby is born etc.

However in this case, something is seriously missing: Jawad has no inclination to work this marriage out. The question is why. I mean, certainly no man wants to leave his wife for a $300 service provider in Europe or US or just because the wife is snobbish.

I think Jawad is in a serious relationship with somebody else and he has confided in his mother who may or may not have told his dad. I also think that his parents do not want you guys to separate.

This is the best possible reason for Jawad acting in this strange fashion. Verify this and if this indeed turns out to be the case, leave him and PDK. PDK is not a place for modern women with law degrees, JFK is.

Re:HP#15

The root of the problem could be that the author is a Pakistani-American (or ABCD) while her husband is from Pakistan. That is always very difficult to work out given the large cultural differences. I have seen successful marriages between ABCDs and FOBs, but they are rare. Typically they face problems related to communication and the ability to understand the other person.

In fact marriages between non-desis and desis are not as difficult as those between ABCDs and FOBS. That is because when you marry a non-desi you know what you are getting into and are mentally prepared for the challenge. When FOBs and ABCDs get married, they often try to overlook their cultural difference by focusing on the exterior similarity like similar family, religion etc. Once they are together the differences kick in real hard and you realize the blunder.

dear chowk staff,

.........there must be some kind of mistake - i think this letter was meant for ``dear abby``........

Are you waiting to be invited to the party?

If not, pack your bags lady.

Emma,

u have the audacity to disparage ur spouse`s family by labeling them as uneducated and ``rags to riches``. And looking at ur brother`s response, it seems to me that u and ur family r not that behind either in their jahalat.

u said: ``Belonging to an educated family unlike my in-laws ( just rags to riches) I have a sophisticated way of doing things. It may seem normal to many of you but having three course meals with starters is not a trend with my in laws! They labeled me too modern and outgoing. New York maybe in America but for everyone but my in laws, they think it is in Pind Dhadan Khan. ``


If u r so liberated and modern, y the hell u married a guy without living with him?

Who was holding a pistol on ur head to marry a pakistani and muslim guy ?

emma,

i hesitate to give a stranger advice on their personal life, but you have brought this to us, and we can either be silent, or tell you what is on our minds.

we at chowk are quite liberal with our advice. no one here will know what is best for you, but you. but consider this: it has been eighteen months. there is no child to think about, or is there? my mother (who is a self-respecting woman) stayed with my father for thirty-eight years thinking that one day he just might change. and he did in one way -- he ended up leaving her. there were moments, little pockets of happiness in those years, but there was also a lot of pain, a lot of self-doubt on her part, a lot of erosion of self-esteem. . .and while he`s gone on with his life, and remarried (the woman he left my mother for), the fallout from all those years still affects her every now and then.

if your marriage has been such that you are not happy, that your husband continues to say ``please leave me``, that you two are now living apart. . . is this a life you want to continue living? only you can answer that question yourself. but to stay with a crutch, with something that drains you emotionally and mentally. . . is damaging more so to yourself than to anyone else. and so ultimately you have to make that decision for yourself, not your parents, not your brother and his family. and if your brother could understand that, if he loves his wife, if his wife is nothing like her brother, then why leave her?

you`re not insane. but you are confused. and if you wait for him to come back to his senses and be a ``proper`` husband to you, chances are you will be waiting a helluva long time. and only you can know whether that`s worth it or not. and from what you`ve described, take some serious time out during this separation and rather than thinking about whether he will change his mind, think about his NOT changing his mind, and who all that will affect.

it is said that love is patient and kind, that love bears all things. . . but i have read nothing of love or affection in here, except possibly the love you have for your own family. . . and your brother, and just as much as you cannot bear to see his marriage broken up, can he bear to see you going through this? do you think he will be happy knowing that his sister is living a lie to keep his marriage together? that`s rather harsh, but there it is. there`s no sense in being completely selfish. . . but being completely selfless in this case is not the answer either. and martyrdom isn`t always offered selflessly either. and what if after all your refusals, he is the one to leave and thus force total separation upon you?

the road you are on is not an easy one, but there is a bend, and another path. . . and i wish you all the best. . . and apologize for anything that appears like unwelcome advice. what is most important is that you remain safe, and strong.

all the best
--ana

I don’t like to comment on personal issues but if someone wants you to be in their bedroom, then I think it is time to put some sense into their head.
Emma, I don’t know how to say this and I know the whole women lib crowd would tear me apart once I am finished with this post.

I will try to be candid but if I am not; ignore my post and go along your complaining ways.
First principle in arranged or semi arranged marriages like that; never disparage your spouse’s family not until you develop a level a comfort with them that comes with years of dealing and living with a family. Your first problem; you look down on his family. They may be from Pind Dadan Khan but they are not exactly stupid either else, he would not have successful business in the US. you grew up in the US but you made this bed and you should be ready to sleep in it too. You need to show respect to his family, as you want him to respect your family. Snotty is the word for people like you who look down on others and it shows thru. You husband is a nice guy respect him for that. It seems to me that he never disparaged your family neither did he bring your attitude up with your brother. I think that was a nice thing to do and he deserves credit for that.
Second, you sound like you are from Pind Dadan Khan. What is wrong with drinking? Smoking yeah, gross habit but moderate drinking is acceptable in the US and you ought to know that.
People have roving eyes guys have them and gals have them. That’s not something you cannot live with as long as he was not making an ass of himself, ogling should not have worried you at all. Gosh, I know gals and guys who share their spouses with friends and others. Just ogling should not be some thing to worry about at all. Btw, if I see some good-looking hot girl, not only I check her out completely but make sure that my spouse also looks at the girl to tell me that her nose is crooked. Holy cow, when my father was alive, we used to check out good-looking girls together. I caught him several times in hospital right before he died and he was still checking out Nurses. My ex-wife and the current one always tell me when they see a good-looking guy and they are middle aged now. You need to relax.
Now other women! That I think is serious! When did that start? After you had shown your contempt for his family and after he was disgusted with your attitude? If he was going at it from the very beginning, then you should have worked him on this issue alone w/o bringing his family roots into it.
One last thing self-made people develop into their own and often it is hard for them to listen to somebody they barely know. Your husband may have continued with his way because he was set in his ways before the marriage and found it hard to cut it out right after the marriage. Pak and Indian men have false sense of pride, it takes them some time to submit to their women; once they do, they follow them like puppy dog. Learn to pay attention to little thing.
My advice to you:
Stop calling him and harassing him. Write neat little letters instead telling how much you love him and how much you would like to be with him and do that every other day until he calls you.
Now if he had physically abused you, then dump him right now and don’t look back. Those guys are not worth any effort.

Re: Article
“I know I’m a Pakistani, but while living in New York I have never sheltered myself from what’s happening around me. Went to University Parties, never drank booze or did drugs and did not appreciate others doing it either. But took it in my stride, and accepted other people`s way of living.

Like most Pakistani men, Jawad is a very liberal guy when it comes to himself. He drinks, takes his occasional weed, eyes up gals.I discover these traits after our marriage.”

You and your husband seem to be very different people.

Some marriages are made in heaven for the rest its best to end them as soon as possible.

Good luck,

Faruk

sorry to sound harsh, but no self respecting woman should stay with a man who doesn`t love her or respect her

you`re educated and can have a wonderful future, with or without a man.... don`t get bullied or intimidated by family members, cuz in the end, you have to do what`s best for you, you`re the one living with the outcomes of your decisions, not anyone else

leave him take care of yourself, and be at peace.... as for your bhabhi and your brother leaving her, if their marriage is strong, they will stay with each other, if not, the inevitable will happen no matter what you decide about your marriage

good luck and be strong

I know you are thinking about your brother`s family and also trying to save your own marraige, but there is a limit to what you can sacrifice.

From what you have said about your husband he really does seem like a typical Pakistani male with double standards. You tried your best to save your marraige with him. I think it is time to let go. As far as your brother`s marraige is concerned, he is being very unfair with the way he is dealing with it. But if he does want to give up his wife for just this reason, then that is HIS problem and decision and actually his wife should have an issue with it. If I were in your place I would get out of this marraige and tell your brother to do whatever he wants. I am sure your brother will come around because no one wants to end their marraige like this.

Emma Nisa:

This is the tragedy of the modern, educated and liberated women of the East. You wouldn`t get your rightful place by begging for it. Many feminists argue and argue endlessly how unfairly women are treated by the men. When the time comes to stand up and assert, they start withering and crumbling.

I cannot suggest what you should do in your situation. but if you believe your husband is a `jerk` who cheats on you, do what a liberated woman ought to do. Else, promise not to complain of male chauvinism. They would continue leading double lives until they are stared in the face and made to blink.

I am sorry to read your story. Thousands of other women have similar stories but they`re living their lives quietly. They have compromised the way it is customary in our society.

If you want to get even and have the heart to do it, strat having a double life yourself and let him know it. Now you might be thinking, ``Is freethinker insane?``

``Like most Pakistani men, Jawad is a very liberal guy when it comes to himself. He drinks, takes his occasional weed, eyes up gals.I discover these traits after our marriage. ``

Sounds like a scumbag. Now ask yourself, is this what your bargained for? Is this fair to you? It is not being selfish to want to leave. If he puts his work above his family then you need to think of yourself first in this situation.

People WILL judge you, and you will be blamed. That is the evil in your society. Your brother may indeed also suffer a bit. If the wife of your brother is anything like your husband, then you both will only benefit by thinking of yourselves first. Your brother WILL manage. As for what other people will say...there is no easy way out. Which path offers the least long term resistance? Either way, only you know. From my position of comfort, I`m inclined to say: get rid of him. One way or the other. Just get rid of him.

And no, you`re not crazy.

Only you can decide for yourself. Just don`t live your entire life looking out for your uncaring husband, or even ur sis-in-law...what you could do, however, would be to try and knock some sense into your brother. In any case, at the end of the day, you`re not responsible if other adults ruin their lives over fragile egos. There comes a point when you have to be selfish and look out for yourself.

paindupastry #7,
I am just curious to know, how is her brother`s marraige affected by Emma`s marraige? Do you mean to say her brother`s wife would leave her brother if Emma`s leaves her husband?

Re: # 3

Her brother will have to leave his marriage as his wife is the sister of Emma`s husband. If she breaks her ties with her husband in the present circumstances his brothers marriage is in jeapordy anyways. I think its wrong to blame her brother for anything.

She should divroce this guy though. He isn`t worth it.

That is why ``watta satta`` is frowned upon amongst many Pbis....leads to problems....we shunned all such proposals for our siblings.

Your parents and brother are modern enough to take you back; yet backward enough to send the bhabi back.

You write well. You are educated enough to show your family the stupidity of sending the bhabi back.

You are more aware of your situation, and can make a better decision, than chowkies reading this. If the split is inevitable, why prolong the pain.

Desis can`t judge others character in decades. And they can reveal the character of their fiances, future in laws in mere seconds. I`ve seen too many cases of such ``dhokhas``.

Dear Emma,

You have a pretty name. It seems you have gone through alot in just little time after Biggest decision of life. But it looks to me you have been very much rational thinker to save the marriage and don`t let others get any harm. Despite of your parents support to come back you are staying there. And its your clearness about life and relationships that has made you think, raise and argue about the problem with sensibility of solving them as well.

It seems you got married much after your brother wed to your Bhabi. So that would be a definite period in which your in-laws might had judged you too to be part of them and their son proposed you. So might be that some frustrations of their side and some stagnant phase of your life which is problemizing now...Hope that its over soon.

But if your in-laws are not supporting you else blaming you then you should make your parents invlove to have them a proper meeting about these issues considering their son`s attitude. Other people should also carry the burden of panic as you are to solve the situation.

But its your life and do what makes you satisfied .

I hope things get fine and you enjoy with your husband everything you wish for...

Cheers,

Emma, I was hoping this was not a true tale when I read it but I guess it is. I think you need to put yourself first here. You cannot hold yourself hostage because someone else might do something...in this case your brother leaving his wife and kids. I`m sorry but apart from your husband being questionable your brother seems to be blackmailing you into staying in a marriage that neither you nor your husband want to be in any more. Everyone needs to handle this like adults. This seems like a horrible time for you. Hope you look after yourself and stay strong....for yourself.

Emma,

It seems like your life is full of immature people who do not care for you. Your husband is totally immature about how to deal with a real woman, as he visits Amsterdam and other places for questionable activities. Your brother also seems to be very immature in that he is willing to leave his wife just because your marriage did not work out. In a way your brother is forcing you to remain trapped in a loveless marriage where there is risk to your health and life, especially if he is visiting prostitutes in Amsterdam.

I suggest that it is high time that you forget about everyone else and just think about what is good for you. You should get out of this mess and face whatever consequences that results in.

emma,
u seem to be in quite the dilemma. my advice is u shud leave him. if all what u describe of him is true, i would not trust him. whether it ends up breaking ur brothers marriage is irrelevant. u cannot and should not continue living in the conditions. good luck and may god be with u.

emma:

a quick welcome and cyber hugs!

more later....you may be agitated and confused and things may have improved or gotten worse...hopefully in the ensuing discussion you will find something helpful...am in a rush...more later

t