Planting Democracy in the World – A Mantra for Freedom

malik,

``If they did not like what they see, then instead of voting, they would come out in the streets and take down the present system.``

........... how much do you want to bet that we will see this happen sooner than later ? ...... remember eastern europe ?..........even abdul will not tolerate tyranny for long .......... we, you and i and bush, can accelerate this process by supporting the forces of sanity and moderation ..........

#33 by malik99 on March 8, 2005 6:56am PT


And precisely that is why Kuwait with its ``parliament`` is considered a democracy


WHO considers Kuwait a democracy? Before we go down this strawman path, let`s see some links...

hamidm #32 writes ``............ so you see, holding elections with a 70% turnout has nothhing to do with democracy``

I will get to that in a minute, but let me first tell you about a guy I knew. He was the patron saint of whores. He would have them role play - sometimes as a `nurse, sometimes as a `waitress`. It might be a bit stretch of imagination, but democracy is like a whore - it can be whatever you fancy. There is no absolute definition of it. And precisely that is why Kuwait with its ``parliament`` is considered a democracy and so is the autocratic rule in Singapore and Russia. And frankly, people like you and me did not come to US to vote. We came for economic reasons. And had you not gotten a visa to US, you might very well have been happily living in the autocratic Saudi Arabia (instead of a democractic India) earning a non-taxable income and kissing the oily tush of bedoiuns.

Now as for the ``vetting`` of candidates right here in US, money is the biggest vetting tool. An ``undesirable`` candidate won`t get money, and his/her campaign would die even before it takes its first breath. And it is precisely because of this powerful vetting process that people have only two choices - republican or democrat.

Now, as for your contention that a voter turn out of 70% does not make Iran into a democracy, here is what I have to say: You can have the most beautiful toy in the world but if it is not managing to get attention of kids, then its no use. Here in US, fewer and fewer people are turning out to vote. This means that fewer and fewer people believe that their vote matters.

On the other hand, with all the imperfections in the Iranian system, Iranians come out in droves to vote. An objective and fair minded observer cannot make any other conclusion but that iranians apparently believe that their vote matters. They seem to believe in the system of government they have. If they did not like what they see, then instead of voting, they would come out in the streets and take down the present system. They have done it before with Shah and his murderous Savak and army. And mullahs are no where close to being as ruthless as Shah!

#31 by hamidm2 on March 8, 2005 5:50am PT


.......... turkey, where the mullahs have learned their lesson, is as close to a democracy


Don`t forget Indonesia....

malik,

............. i think you know the answer to your question, ``Why is Iran, where nearly 70% of the people enthusiastically vote every 4 years, not considered a democracy``.............

....... a simple answer would be; `` for the same reason nazi germany should not have been considered a democracy``

.......... an election where the candidates are vetted, culled and sometimes exterminated by a council made up of fanatical mullahs is a sham, even though it has the trappings of democracy ..........

.......... turkey, where the mullahs have learned their lesson, is as close to a democracy a muslim country has been able to get since the fall of mecca .......... but even there the world has to keep a watchful eye because there is always the danger of slipping into the abyss of islamic nazism as enshrined in the doctrine of the khilafat and other such nonsense ................ malaysia is another exception but the islamists are lurking in the jungles along with the orangutans to tip the rather delicate balance between modernity and jungle law ........ with mahatir gone it might be hard to maintain that balance ..............

............ so you see, holding elections with a 70% turnout has nothhing to do with democracy - after all saddam was elected with 99% of the vote and in 1933 hitler`s nazis won almost half the seats ........

............ but even though islam is incompatible with democracry, muslims will be liberated and eventually democracy will prevail - the world has no other choice

#23 by Urstruly on March 7, 2005 7:34pm PT


For that education system must be coruppted; financial system must be corrupted; and people must be drowned in the glut of information and entertainment like a fly trapped in the honey. That is happening rapidly and surely.


And it`s all happening with your tax $$...I hope you`re planning to file your taxes on time..Uncle Sam appreciates knowing how much money he has for comign in for ``drowning people in the glut of information and entertainment``.....

Re: # 24 [``...Urstruly sound[s] like a fire and brimstone mullah !?

methinks he has had a toke followed by a couple of reefers ! ...``]

No self-respecting charasee worth his salt is into any sort of ``fire and brimstone``... Peace, harmony, music, ``make love not war`` YES, but no fire or brimstone. So please quit giving reefers a bad name. One Bill Bennitt was enough.

...SR

freethinker #20 writes ``But what does Dajjal have to do with ‘democracy’? Dajjal is an evil autocrat while democracy is benign and people friendly. ``

Excuse me for being a party pooper, but a people friendly democracy has very recently butchered 120,000 innocent people. Or are you arguing that iraqis are not ``people`` until and unless they come under the whims and wishes of the ``people friendly`` democracy?

Freethinker sahib, pardon me for saying this, but with that argument you did not come across as free or a thinker. Naivethinker is more like it. I mean seriously, when you say in your article that ``President Bush has made a mission of his administration to spread democracy in the non-democratic parts of the world`` - do you really think Bush gives a hoot whether there should be a democracy in Pakistan if Musharraf is good enough in doing America`s bidding?

And by the way, just what IS democracy? Why is Iran, where nearly 70% of the people enthusiastically vote every 4 years, not considered a democracy, but Kuwait is? Could it be that Israel looks at Iran as more of a threat than Kuwait? So you see, Bush govt does not really look at the world as you do - democratic vs. un-democratic. It looks at it from a perspective of client vs. non-client.

I don`t have any argument against democracy, if that is what people of a given country would like to have. But i just don`t think they would appreciate it if it is forced on them by an external power.

#21 haha arjun .. well said. That`s exactly what I was thinking while reading bucaphelus`s post. It is indeed amazing to see how much currency this slogan of ``Hindu dharma is in danger`` has in educated indians (especially NRIs). Visiting Sulekha forums can be such an eye opener !

Interesting article. I dont agree with your views on India, but that is not an important matter.

What is important is that in the US, till 30 years ago you had segregation, blacks were not admitted into white colleges etc. In the UK which has the longest history of Democracy, women were not allowed to vote till the beginning of the 20th century. There also the women`s demonstrations were brutally broken up.

So I dont think that the west is a beacon of light which has to be followed blindly. What you call democracy out there in the fullest sense has not been around for too long. Will it be around for long ??? I am sure that the Romans felt the same way before Juluis Caesar brought the rebublic to an end.

democracy in knickers,

..........according to the bbc the mullahs in kuwait have their shorts in a knot because women want equal rights ........... but from where i sit, democracy looks just fine ........



......... is this why urstruly, like muhammad ata, is afraid of democracy - women in knickers!

Re: # 23

forgive me for being a clueless person, but for the life of me, I can`t understand what the hell Urstruly is talking about...

what the **** does ``Dajjal`` mean for starters....??????

and why does Urstruly sound like a fire and brimstone mullah !?

methinks he has had a toke followed by a couple of reefers !

Shouldn`t it be an eye opener that Muslims are not scared of democracy. It is in fact the neo-colonial West and their puppet tin pot despots who are scared of democracy. Thruoughout the Muslim world, wherever, the power has gone to the people they have opted for the rule of Qura`n and Sunnah - If Algiers is not an eye opener then what is, if Iran is not an eye opener then what is; if Turkey is not an eye opener then what is; Malaysia, Pakistan, Iraq, Egypt......you just need two eyes to see. As long as people of Afghansitan were free from foreign occupation they chose the law of Qura`n over any other but as soon as puppets were intalled on them they promoted the ``Rejection`` of God. It is this very reason the Dajjal has proactively taken steps to install upon us another form of its minions - not one minion but many who will share power but will be powerless in front of Dajjal. They will make sure that the power of the people becomes impotent in front of Dajjal. For that people must be stripped off their values; their history; their pride. For that education system must be coruppted; financial system must be corrupted; and people must be drowned in the glut of information and entertainment like a fly trapped in the honey. That is happening rapidly and surely. The minions are in hyperdrive.

That is the reason Muslims must question the very notion of democracy first. From the observation of Western societies we see that democracy does not mean the government of the people and neither it is a social contract between the people and the government but on the other hand it is just an arrangement by which very rich rule the have-less and have- nots. What they call the social contract, means that goverment will provide luxury to the people as long as people keep their noses out of the government business. That is the reason when these Western governments kill, and plunder other nations; torture human beings; destroy lives no one even raises an eyebrow.

Do we want a society like this? Time to question is now.

re: this article
This is one shitty article.
``India although is secular by its own proclamation, such a claim is nominal at present.``
India has a muslim president, a sikh PM, a Roman Catholic as leader of majority party and u have the balls to say India is ``secular by proclamation``. If i see u, i will whip u.
Have u been to India? I think it is as secular as USA where i live for the past several years.
Of course, Pak is a fundamentalist, jehadi infested basket case and there is no comparison between India and Pak. You Pakis should stop mentioning India when u are talking about your country.
Yes, u are right. Pak is a fukced up country and u are lucky to be out of it.
Sridhar

#18 by bucaphelus on March 7, 2005 6:14pm PT


How do you expect the Hindu society to be ``secular``


Umm..because India says it`s secular...if you don`t want to be secular, just call yourself hindu and STFU....isn`t that the idea?
Sure India is far more secular than any country in the subcontinent, but this isn`t a contest with Pakiland or Bangladesh....the bar isn`t that low, is it?
This is about what India wants to be...secular or non-secular...


when it is surrounded by Islamic countries and societies that pose a mortal threat to the very existence of Hindu India?


That`s the hindu version of ``Islam khatre me hai`` so let`s kill a bunch of Indians...

WTF is hindu India and how is it`s existence under threat? Someone stopping you from wearing the khaki chaddis and selling cow pee to cure cancer or whatever?

Inter-actors:

Dajjal does make its appearance at some of the most unlikely places. I hadn’t thought he would grace the discussion of my article, which didn’t seem to have the remotest link with him, with his being. Now that he has showed up, I give some information about him in the following.

Maulana Maudoodi has devoted some considerable space in his Tafheem-ul-Quran for Dajjal. On page 160 of his Tafheem, Vol. 4, he says, “Also Abu Amamah Bahli, describing Dajjal in a long hadith, said, “Exactly at that time when the Imam of the Muslims will have stepped forward to lead the Morning Prayer, Jesus, son of Mary, will descend. The Imam will step back so that Jesus may take his place. But Jesus will put his hands on Imam’s shoulders and ask him to lead the prayer. The Imam will lead the prayer and after reciting the ‘salaam’, Jesus will tell the people to open the door. The door will be opened and Dajjal, with seventy thousand armed Jews will be standing outside. The moment Jesus casts his glance at Dajjal, he’ll start melting like salt (in another hadith, it is reported that he’d start melting like lead, author) and will run away. Jesus will say, ‘I have such a terrible blow for you from which you cannot escape.’ Jesus will overtake him at the eastern gate of ‘Ludd’ and Allah will defeat the Jews…and the earth will fill with the Muslims like a pale with water.” There are several other hadiths also with some variations. As far as I know (I may be wrong), Dajjal is not mentioned in the Quran.

According to S. Bashir –uddin- Mahmood, the Pakistani nuclear scientist, who proposed to harness the energy from the jinns, “Hazrat Hazifah Bin Aussad (may Allah be pleased with him) quoting the prophet of Allah, peace be upon him, narrated the following signs of the approaching doomsday.
a. Dajjal will appear. He will be an evil ruler; enemy of the righteous everywhere, and will enjoy great authority and miraculous powers. He will have the means to travel from the East to the West in a day or a part thereof. He will have with him Jannat and Jahannam. Jannat for the reward to his followers and Jahannam for the punishment of his opponents. He will be able to make the dead living. (I
thought these were the traits of God only, author)

(From the nature of the authority of Dajjal, one can see that he will be master of high technology which he will use for his evil ends. Present means of high speed travel and medical developments are seen as a step towards his coming, Mahmood)
b. Daba-tul-Ardh, a strange kind of creature, will appear on the
Earth. It will be an animal but speak like the humans.
(It may also be a high tech. product of bio-engineering or may be some kind of robot capable to reproduce themselves. Present developments in the field of genetic engineering, and neuro computers may result into the accident creation of such a creature. Mahmood), Doomsday and Life After Death, by S. Bashir–uddin- Mahmood, p. 99.

If I remember correctly, I read in one of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed’s books in which he wrote that Dajjal had already come. Since the second coming of Messiah (Jesus) is linked with the emergence of Dajjal, his claim for the promised messiah could then be justified accordingly. According to him, the engine of a railway train with its single headlight on its forehead was the predicted Dajjal.

Now Hamidm2 has mentioned Mullah Umar. Only God knows best. But one thing is certain: these fantastic stories do provide a “wee bit” of entertaining reading.

But what does Dajjal have to do with ‘democracy’? Dajjal is an evil autocrat while democracy is benign and people friendly.