Such Anais Journey!

Dear Farzana:

This article seems to have accomplished a minor miracle because it looks like it has the Chowkees stumped (which, at least until now, one would have thought of as a contradiction in terms).

For what it is worth:

1) Child abuse is a very serious issue. The lady who is the subject of this article (and admittedly, my knowledge/understanding of her is very shallow) was an abused child, perhaps in more ways than one. The initial perpetrator was her father. The times in which she lived, such issues were not openly talked about or even acknowledged, what to say of possible treatments. Obviously, the mother seems to have been of little help (only moving away to US after her husband dumped her). In the present times, her father would have been in jail for doing what he did (and perhaps also the mother for complicity through silence), she under the care of foster parents and hopefully receiving some serious counseling.

2) Even to a layman it appears obvious that at a very vulnerable time in her life, her abuse by the father damaged her permanently and left her a warped personality, never really growing out of trying to identify with her father (as all little girls do), even sleeping with him when she was 30 just to make some (weird) point. Yes, there are a lot of quotations she left behind which make people pause and reflect, but as has been said (okay, by me) “all words are hot air, it is only the deeds which define what a person really is”. Although it is to her credit that she still made SOMETHING out of her life, who knows how far she could have got had she not been saddled with such a heavy burden so early in life.

3) I can understand poetic license, but obviously some artists very liberally extend that concept to include “do whatever pleases your fancy”, and her father seems to have been one such fruitcake (actually a cowardly predator). As the recent trials and tribulations of Michael Jackson appear to indicate, it still happens (though, thankfully, it no more gets pushed under the rug).

By the way, most of the situations that you mention in your article’s second paragraph can happen to men as well (except perhaps baring the raw flesh part, although I can not be absolutely sure of that either).

Bye for now.

BeeJay (yes, still on sabbatical)

Farzana,

A splendid tribute!

Moving, complex and seductive. Happy Woman`s Day.

HN

What brings our better in a women-a mother than Rabbi`s song Tere Bin.

farzana,

have always wanted to read the anais nin diaries. . . i remember a friend and i reading ``delta of venus`` in a bus, with our eyes popping out at anais` words and descriptions. it seemed so antiquated to us twentysomethings, but yet alive.

i liked this.

happy womens` day
--ana (who loves being a woman too)

Anais Nin is one of my favourite writers; read Henry and June..she also introduced me via her books to Henry Miller...her lover/friend...

A disturbed woman though...but a great writer of erotica...

farzana - i have my problems with anais and i`ve never been able to erase another woman`s memory of her from my mind but i have never forgotten that it was Anais who introduced me to my mother as someone/thing more than `mom`.

great read.

what i like about this. . . is how it shows the complexity of anais, and her vision. it would be easy to reduce her to a child who was abused and the owner of a ``warped`` mind, but it really is not that simple. . .

more thoughts to follow, perhaps. . .

Farzana,

Uh...I couldnt get past the first para....what are you talking about? Most understanding, celebration and participation in International Working Women`s Day is NOT about victimhood. Where do you get this notion from?

Please dont set up straw men and women arguments.

-Samina

farzana:

i`ve read this a few times now, especially the first two paragraphs, and by way of introduction to a tribute to anais. . . i`m not seeing how you`ve expressed international women`s day being about victimhood here. i understand the word victimhood in the first paragraph to suggest that that is one of the things discussed. . . how to go beyond it.

farzana, a woman loving herself and respecting herself is also what is behind international women`s day. i know i`m stating the obvious as i`m wont to do, but yes, while the goals are in place for achieving the most and best of all possible worlds (i`m afraid i couldn`t escape the voltairian reference) for women, there are still those who we don`t talk about, because we don`t know. there are so many women that don`t even know what women`s day is, or how this day relates to their lives. that by no means devalues march 8th. . . it reminds us that this day means different things to different women.

it has been a long time since i read the book ``women writing for their lives: the modernist women.`` which talks about the life and art of writers such as HD, gertrude stein, djuna barnes and more names which escape me right now, but reading about anais somehow reminded me of that. some of these women were also fabricating a world they could live in, living on their terms.

i don`t know too much about anais to comment on her life, but for this to appear as a tribute on women`s day was nice, in terms of the complexities, the many colors, and realities of women.

keep being better
--ana

Farzana

I have not read your article. But Anais is great - my favourite writer. I have most of her books.

nhk

I have managed to sign in only a while ago, therefore a belated Happy Women’s Day. There have been a few articles in the Indian press about the irrelevance of celebrating such an event. Kalpana lajmi, film director of women-based movies like ‘Ek Pal’, ‘Darmiyaan’, ‘Daman’, felt that having such a day gives women the minority status. My point is, even if it is not commemorated women will continue to struggle.

In fact, on one TV show some women on Marine Drive were interviewed. One lady said that there should be such a day because women have to struggle more. In her naïve, but very genuine fashion, she mentioned the struggle of being answerable to the father, then the husband, then her sons – that was her reality. On this one day in the urban landscape she felt she was free from that struggle and it made a point. The anchor asked her in jest, “So you count dealing with your husband a struggle?” She laughed and said, “Yes.”

I have got an email with me regarding this article, which says, “Can’t say I share the feeling of love being a woman, specially when I spend most days wondering if I am really cut out to be the wife and mother roles I play!”

I replied: “...you know one can love being a woman DESPITE not performing certain roles adequately. Besides, I have noticed that people tend to have a poor self-perception of how they are doing whereas they may be quite wonderful really, even if somewhat unconventional.”

On another note, Rape, dowry deaths, female infanticide, women forced into brothels are victims. When one talks about empowering one surely has to discuss victimhood. It does not make much sense to empower those who already have power.
- - -
#1 by BeeJay:

1) Anais was more than an abused child. Writing as catharsis was her counselling.

2) There is no doubt that the abuse by her father “damaged” her, but sleeping with him later in life was not to prove a “weird” point. People who carry heavy baggage do not set out to prove anything; they travel where their bags take them. Yes, it is possible she may have reached higher, but her life was her canvas. I am also of the belief that so=-called ‘structured’ families and not necessarily not dysfunctional. Sexual politics is not relegated to ‘disturbed’ environments; people can lead unspeakably shallow lives beneath the tree called family values or put up with rubbish to retain ‘dignity’.

[“All words are hot air, it is only the deeds which define what a person really is”.]

You say this of writers whose words you have access to. Often deds is what a person writes about. If you appreciate what a person has said or written, do you try and find out whether they have ‘done’ something of what you deem some worth? I would be interested in knowing.

3) Cowardly predators not only exist, but it is still pushed under the carpet, everywhere in the world. One Michael Jackson case coming to light does not reveal that society is now ‘outing predators.

[By the way, most of the situations that you mention in your article’s second paragraph can happen to men as well (except perhaps baring the raw flesh part, although I can not be absolutely sure of that either).]

I do accept that men do have their moments of internal turmoil too, but regarding the instances I have mentioned, they get called mavericks, anarchists, rebels; you called Anais’ father a “fruitcake” and “cowardly predator”. You did not talk about his “warped” mind!

[This article seems to have accomplished a minor miracle because it looks like it has the Chowkees stumped (which, at least until now, one would have thought of as a contradiction in terms).]

???
- - -
#2 by HN:

Harish, thank you…and thank you!
- - -
#3 by ijaz_gul:

[What brings our better in a women-a mother than Rabbi`s song Tere Bin.}

It is interesting how so many women too talk about their mothers. I think the power of creation whether through birth or words surpasses a lot…
- - -
#5 by Naqshbandi:

[A disturbed woman though...but a great writer of erotica...]

Writing about the body and sensuality does not always qualify as erotica. I do not think Anais was titillating; a disturbed woman pouring her heart out honestly, unafraid to show her own warts…that’s how I see her.
- - -
#6 by amrita:

I do know that Anais is not someone one can identify with easily but it is fragments that one can relate to. I think her inner space, those very private demons, resonate with emotions we sometimes might not like to face or that we just disagree with because they are outside of our immediate realm.
- - -
#8 by Saminasha:

Thanks for interacting on the first para…
- - -
#10 by nazarhayatkhan
[I have not read your article. But Anais is great - my favourite writer. I have most of her books.]

Woh subah kabhi tau aayegi jab hum ‘good’ tak pohunchenge (‘great’ness tau door ki baat hai) jab aap hamarey lafzoun ko bhi padh lenge :-)
- - -
ana:

I do not like being presumptuous, but I did think you would understand what was being conveyed here even before I read your posts.

As I wrote in the beginning, there is no standard, formatted reality. A woman like Lajmi who has power finds no use for such a day; a woman in the street whose life is about dealing with a patriarchal structure of some kind wants to celebrate the occasion.

It is possible that I chose Anais for this occasion because one is in a certain frame of mind, but to me she represents all that I set out to say in the introduction to the piece. I am glad you could identity with the complexities of both Anais and several other women…you are right about it being so easy to reduce her to a “warped” mind. What I find strange is that men are dignified by “that fine madness”.

And if we are to get into warped minds, we will find that several women in the forefront of the movement have made startling comments, changed their stances, and lived private lives quite different from their public positions. Relevance of something is always a matter of perspective.

Regards to all…and a little happiness in everyone’s jholi

Farzana. I discovered Anais Nin in my mid-20`s and was fascinated by her writing and her life as well. Good to read this here. She is someone I think that most people (women?) if they are honest with themselves can identify with... or perhaps she did things that many f us would want to do, damn the consequences. She was inconsistent, lived an unconventional life in a conventional time, challenged herself, dealt with her demons in creative ways, etc. You brought that out quite well.

I do, however, disagree with your comment #11 (part #5) where you say she was not necessarily a writer of erotica but was simply writing honestly. Nin did not see erotica as a bad word and played with the genre most effectively. More importantly she did write many of her stories, especially all of those in Delta of Venus and Little Birds to be titillating. She wrote them for a dollar a page for an old gentleman, Roy Melisander Johnson of Ardmore, Oklahoma, who had all the printed erotica in English but found that each story excited and titillated him only once. Therefore, he needed new stories all the time. Anais, and her friend and one-time lover Gershon Legman and even Henry Miller supplied Mr. Johnson with stories every week and I think were paid a couple of hundred dollars for them each time. Anais wrote stories for Mr. Johnson for about 2 years until his death. Of course, even though the stories were graphic they were so well written that the gentleman complained that he was ``not paying for literature.``

Of course, she was not just a writer of erotica but it was something she felt comfortable with and she used it to frame her stories. It is widely assumed that House of Incest, for instance was a fictionalized account of her own weirdly dysfunctional relationship with her father.

Enjoyed reading this, Farzana.

Farzana, Ana,

Lets look at this para closely:

``I love being a woman.``

A declarative opening sentence. A position taken by the narrator.

``I am saying this today because on March 8 they celebrate womanhood in seminar rooms, in flag-holding ceremonies, in the streets, sometimes in the villages.``

Why is the narrator saying this ``today`` as opposed to any other day? Is it because of the ideas Intl. Working Women`s Day symbolizes? When the narrative uses these specific sites of where these ideas are being discussed-academia, ngo ceremonies-the subtext is that Intl Working Women`s Day is a construct celebrated in certain ideological spaces-progressive. When these two spheres are juxtaposed with ``the streets`` and ``villages``, one would hope for the same kind of specific ring of ``flag holding ceremonies``. In example, several labor unions and their membership comprised of women and men workers, also celebrate this day-and organize educational, cultural, political and community programs. I should know-my husband and I attended one last night. The holiday is properly known as ``Intl Working Women`s Day``-which attests to both private and public labor. And yes, writing, scholarship, creativity, advocacy is labor.

`` They talk of reservation quotas, empowerment, education, hygiene, victimhood. All this is absolutely essential. But they don’t ask a woman whether she loves being a woman.``

Here`s where I get confused. Who are ``they``? Could they be defined? Also, isnt it pretty obvious that a celebration of the innumerable kinds of labor that women perform is a celebration of women itself? That working towards improving our lives further is a celebration of women and their capacities? Does anyone ask African Americans if they love be Black during Black History month? I gather the answer would be, ``yes and no``...no being based on discrimination and inequal status, not because one is ``black`` or a ``woman``...

I dont know- this particular idea- seems a bit ill conceived. Sorry Farzana, but I have to register my response to this.

-S

Anais appears to be one sick puppy, thru this article.

In general I am quite skeptical of the notion of victimhood of women. To me the matter is simple - as long as women keep thinking themselves as just another mean of production in a capital society (especially in those society where there ain`t no capital but want to live like they have) they will keep victimizing themselves. The truth of the matter is that we may keep saying that man and woman are equal and keep feeling better about ourselves while ignoring the fact that man and woman may be equal but they are not identical. The common sense suggests that when two things are not identical then any effort in trying to equate them is a useless effort. An apple cannot be equal to an orange. Such comparison always end up in frustration and nothing else. And common sense also suggests that when all avenues to equality fail then one must opt for equity - the just equity. The victimhood of women is thus self inflicted. It is a necessary baggage that comes as side effect of what echoboom calls as Westoxicated education system. We are trying to implement a social system upon us that has proven failed. Lets admit that what frustrates woman is her own sacrifice of her previliges in the name of equality. Women loses on both fronts and considers herself a victim. But I, the man, do not buy that. I refuse

Ladies and Saminashah

Please do submit for the following writers call:

+++++

Yoni Ki Baat -- submission deadline extended to April 30
Vagina Talks, presented by
South Asian Sisters

I wasn`t able to be in San Francisco for it, but I sent in an excerpt from ``Silence and the Word`` for their last iteration of ``Yoni ki Baat.`` A bit too harried with novel revisions to send them anything this time around, so I hope lots of other folk send them great stuff. From their call:

That`s right -- ``Yoni ki Baat`` is back for its third yoni-riffic year! We have confirmed that South Asian women are ready speak out about their bodies, their sexualities, and, yes, their yonis (yoni= vagina in Sanskrit)! This is an open call for our sisters to get creative and share any stories about their yonis, including topics such as, but not limited to:

* motherhood
* birth
* culture
* abuse
* menstruation
* smell
* hair
* genital mutilation
* orgasm
* pleasure
* masturbation
* sexual orientation
* rewriting stories
* reclaiming language (c**t, b**ch, etc.)

Or, if you`re stuck on what to write about, we`ve got some questions for you:

* What does your yoni enjoy most about being a south asian woman?
* How do you relate to women in our community?
* What is the most frustrating issue in south asian culture facing women today?
* Which Bollywood heroine/ hero does your yoni pine for or aspire to be?
* What language does your yoni speak?
* What Bollywood film would your yoni star in?
* What Bollywood song would your yoni sing?
* What is your yoni`s bio-data/ matrimonial?
* What name does your yoni prefer to be called by?
* What is the immigration status of your yoni?
* What is your yoni`s weapon?
* What does your yoni smell like?
* If your yoni could run for president, what would be the first item
on her agenda?
* If your yoni could say two words, what would they be?

Submissions will remain anonymous upon request and may be incorporated
into our upcoming ``Yoni Ki Baat`` show in the Bay Area.

Please send any ideas, answers, poems, essays, stories, or musings --
we can`t do the show unless we have your contributions! Your
contributions create the mood and experience of the show, please share
your voices with us!

Be on the lookout for more information about ``Yoni Ki Baat`` in the coming
weeks.

Please send your submissions by April 30, 2005, to:

Email: ykb@sasisters.org

Post:
South Asian Sisters
1642 Fell Street
San Francisco, CA 94117

Nice title!
Anais Nin was like a female Larry Flynt. Not a particularly great writer but she got mileage from shocking the readers.

Jawahara:

Thanks for the additional input regarding her commissioned erotic writing.

When I think of such writing, I look at it beyond its titillating aspect. You are right when you say, “Nin did not see erotica as a bad word and played with the genre most effectively.” For Anais, the body does not seem to be merely a sensual experience; it had to do with self-esteem and acceptance. Sure, others might get titillated (as they were with Arundhati Roy’s GOST), but I feel she was extending the parameters of her desires to reach out.
- - -
Samina:

Most certainly the different kinds of labour a woman performs would qualify as celebration of women, but such celebration is something she ‘does’. It empowers her, and in many ways it is value and price-based. Loving oneself does not necessarily follow and, worse, it is not seen as important enough. That is the reason I chose Anais.

Why did I say I love being a woman on March 8?
1. I have already said that among the other discussions, this ‘minor’ detail is left out.
2. I was just feeling good on that particular day. (I suppose that is the reason lovers reaffirm love on Valentine’s Day, and wedding anniversaries and birthdays are celebrated…love does not happen on one day, a marriage is an ongoing process and one is not ‘just born’….)

This is an open forum, so it is indeed your prerogative to register your response the way you deem fit.
- - -
Urstruly:

While you are entitled to your views on Anais, let us get a few things straight:

There are many women who when they speak about rights do not talk in terms of equality, but of justice and fairplay. Women’s Lib is not about being clones of men.

[The victimhood of women is thus self inflicted. It is a necessary baggage that comes as side effect of what echoboom calls as Westoxicated education system. We are trying to implement a social system upon us that has proven failed. Lets admit that what frustrates woman is her own sacrifice of her previliges in the name of equality.]

In our subcontinent, large parts of it, women are illiterate, so forget a “Westoxicated education system”. Who is trying to implement the sort of social system you are talking about? What are the yardsticks of its failure or success? Are you not confusing the genuine ‘victimhood’ with martyrdom? A victim is not her own creation. And I do not know of many women who wallow in their victimhood and feel martyred. (Joan of Arc is a male construct.)

What privileges are you talking about that women have to sacrifice to become liberated and therefore, according to you, frustrated? Do you believe that giving up on dependency is the sacrifice of a privilege?
- - -

DrDr:

[Not a particularly great writer but she got mileage from shocking the readers.]

That says a lot about the readers then, not about her.

I like the title too!

FV

``In our subcontinent, large parts of it, women are illiterate, so forget a “Westoxicated education system”. Who is trying to implement the sort of social system you are talking about? What are the yardsticks of its failure or success?``

True. But those who are spearheading this ``victimhhod`` and those who have assumed themselves to be the leaders on the path to ``martyrdomm`` are Westoxicated, aren`t they. Let me give you an example. Tehmina Durrani, the writer of ``My Feudal Lord`` who is among the champions of womens ``movement for independence`` willingly became the twelveth wife of the feudal lord whom she despises so much. She wasn`t an ``illiterate woman of villageside``. No one could have forced her. It is only when she couldn`t manage to keep her household intact became the champion of women`s right. And the funny thing is while doing that she willingly chose to become the third wife of a politician.

We must ask this question from ourselves that ``if these women, these so called champions of liberation movement, these martyrs cannot keep their own house intact then how could they give a sane advice to other women?`` Every woman that I come across as the champion is almost certainly a failure at relationship with men. If they cannot convince one man, that is closer to them, of their ideology, then what good is that.

The yardstick of failure of a society in this respect is the way it treats its women. In a society where woman has a market value then it must have a shelf life as well. If it is a means of industrial production then it depreciates too. If a societal norm where man enjoys every bit of a woman but wouldnot stand by her to raise his seed is deplorable, then shouldn`t we must block all the avenues that lead to this eventuality. In West, in the name of freedom and equality what has woman earned - her lonliness and illegitimate children. Do we want to copy these societies. Should our women also pay that price?

FarzanaVersey
``DrDr:

[Not a particularly great writer but she got mileage from shocking the readers.]

That says a lot about the readers then, not about her. ``

Fair enuff. Id say it says something abt both the society & her. If shocking the readers was the main effect as opposed to a side effect, then writing only has a prurient value IMO.

Farzana,

nice article . I have never read anything on Anais but I surely will now as you have sparked my interest.
Also just want to say, I love being a woman!
Being a woman is not easy, enjoying your woman hood means enjoying and understanding your self .

A few quotes on being a WOMAN!!!

Leslie McIntyre quotes-

``Nobody objects to a woman being a good writer or sculptor or geneticist if at the same time she manages to be a good wife, good mother, good looking, good tempered, well groomed and unaggressive``.

Clare Boothe Luce quotes (American playwright, legislator, and diplomat 1903-1987)

``Because I am a woman, I must make unusual efforts to succeed. If I fail, no one will say, ``She doesn`t have what it takes``; They will say, ``Women don`t have what it takes``.


Enriqueta Longauex-Vasquez quotes,

``A woman who has no way of expressing herself and of realizing herself as a full human being has nothing else to turn to but the owning of material things``


Evita Peron quotes (Argentinian president. 1919-1952)

``I am my own woman.``

To all women, Love yourself and enjoy being a woman..........
sajal

Dear Farzana:

I normally do not respond to responses to my interacts because (1) I feel lazy, and (2) if the responder has a stature like that of Farzana Versey, I am going to lose anyway, so why prolong the inevitable. However, in this case, I believe there is a genuine need for making an exception and putting up at least the appearance of a “fight”. Therefore, I submit the following for your consideration:

[There is no doubt that the abuse by her father “damaged” her, but sleeping with him later in life was not to prove a “weird” point.]
“Weird” is the word that came to my mind, I could not figure out what else to call it. Maybe I could call it “unusual”. Well, it is still the SAME act and it still STINKS!

[People who carry heavy baggage do not set out to prove anything; they travel where their bags take them.]
My opinion is that bags are supposed to accompany the traveler, not the other way around. I do have strong opinions regarding child abuse. Ideally, as we start the journey of life as children, fate would only load on us an amount we are designed to carry. Unfortunately, some children (through no fault of their own and usually due to exposure to an “evil” adult (my choice of word and I stand by it!)) get saddled by a lot more than that. As they grow older and realization sets in, the bags even feel heavier, especially for sensitive individuals. Yes, of course it is a tough situation - the question is what to DO about it? The way I look at it, a traveler could do one of two things (1) if the baggage is only deadweight, the traveler should dump it somewhere and go on without it, (2) if the contents of the baggage are so mixed-up with other valuables of life that without it the journey itself would be meaningless or impossible, then probably a good idea is to get some help in carrying it (keeping in mind that at some opportune time, it is still worthwhile to sort through the contents to keep only what is essential). Excess baggage can only hurt and hinder, for any journey, especially that of life.

[I am also of the belief that so-called ‘structured’ families are not necessarily not dysfunctional. Sexual politics is not relegated to ‘disturbed’ environments; people can lead unspeakably shallow lives beneath the tree called family values or put up with rubbish to retain ‘dignity’. ]
Yes, ANY family can be dysfunctional because successful functioning takes place on an individual level, for each member of the “structure”. Yes, what you describe in the second sentence also CAN happen. But if there is no structure to follow, then chances of dysfunction would be higher (this appears intuitive to me).

[[“All words are hot air, it is only the deeds which define what a person really is”.]
You say this of writers whose words you have access to. Often deeds is what a person writes about. If you appreciate what a person has said or written, do you try and find out whether they have ‘done’ something of what you deem some worth? I would be interested in knowing.]
I have a particular insight into the meaning and intent of the quotation you refer to, since it IS physically possible for me get into the head of that person (myself) who said it.
So, here is what it was intended to mean (in plain language): “Anais Nin - the abused child (an underdog) had no choice but to go along with what her “protectors” subjected her to. However, that child must never be confused with the woman of thirty who made a conscious, thought out, “adult” decision to hop into bed with her old man – no matter what her rationale. That woman of thirty had every right to talk about her ordeal as much as she wanted (so my choice of the word “hot air” may have been a poor choice, are you happy now?) but she must never be excused for committing the “deed” based on her own, conscious decision.” (It is important to read no more or no less in that “quotation” than what I wrote in “plain language”. Therefore, I believe the rest of your question does not belong here.)

[I do accept that men do have their moments of internal turmoil too, but regarding the instances I have mentioned, they get called mavericks, anarchists, rebels; you called Anais’ father a “fruitcake” and “cowardly predator”. You did not talk about his “warped” mind!]
Go ahead, choose your words! But shouldn’t we be talking about the fact that he committed an abominable crime rather than fight over the choice of words to describe his state of mind?

[[This article seems to have accomplished a minor miracle because it looks like it has the Chowkees stumped (which, at least until now, one would have thought of as a contradiction in terms).]
???]
When I first looked at your article, it appeared a whole day old, but had zero interacts – hence the term “stumped” as in “looks like the Chowkees have lost their voices”. (I now realize that the difference in time zone may have had something to do with it, and many otherwise perceptive Chowkees were in a different state of mind - ASLEEP.)

Repeating my earlier disclaimer, I did not (and still do not) know much about the lady - Anais Nin. In hindsight, I should have been more sensitive to the fact that you hold her in high esteem and chosen my words more carefully. I am really sorry about that and apologize profusely. I truly understand how it must have hurt, since there is nothing more painful as when somebody makes a conscious effort to drag down whom one holds in high esteem, no matter who the person that is doing the dragging! Still, life must go on.

I am sure there will be more for me to say at some later point.

Sincerely,
BeeJay.

Re: # 18
that`s a silly argument - men dont reserve abandonment for their illegitimate children. lots of married men walk off into the night to buy a ciggie and thats the last heard of them. treatment of women by a society is not dependent upon the freedom of the women, but upon the education of men and women.

and by education, i dont mean the kind you can get in a school but at home from your parents. as for victimhood - Tehmina Durrani is an easy target, sure. but there are about a thousand other women who did not have the choices she did and find their stories told through this ``Westoxicated`` woman who might have had all the choices in the world but lived their life. but they are not tehmina Durrani and so cant tell their story because no one is very interested in X Woman - of their broken homes among other things - and if we went by your yardstick then their stories would never come out.

as for the doomed relationships of these liberated women - maybe it is because they had to try and convince these men. the women i know who believe these liberated ideas and dont have to spend their time convincing men on the way they`d like to be treated, are very happily married and not a disaster at relationships.

There are many otherways to celeberate womanhood. Here is one way
http://indiatogether.org/2003/feb/eco-lijpapad.htm
http://www.lijjat.com/Content.asp?id_Section=6

I cannot make head or tail of what this bibi says. May be it`s because I am not convent educated. But thank god for that! It did not matter since not able to read fast I could save myself from lot of junk, keep my originality..which was valued by my employer (a premier R&D lab) so much that they kept a tutor and writer for me for almost five years. I could keep spark in the eye and enthusism alive. Had I become yet another word-smith or POW (prisoner of word) I would have lost my job.

Please dont scratch at the opening, tell us more about this Vinashi None`s womb. How many kids did she have? How many others kids did she help? Who were her kids and how did she make them great. How dod she raised her kids. We do not need to learn from Parveen Babi how to keep marriage happy or from Shahajahan/Aurangzeb family values and respect for women. Those Tajmahals are feats of sweat and blood of very different people. Bottomline - dont read too much esp one which you cannot experience or have capability to put in practice. I like less read Gandhi who walked the talk.

These pill-orized Shurpankhas have free hands to scratch (khujali) at the opening because some other poor woman`s hands are cleaning their mess in their kitchen. Get back into kitchen and clean the mess. Sometimes wonder if all thir writing and speaking is actually the pill talking. They need to be hung on the nearest post by their breasts since there is no motherly milk in them.

Why doesnt chowkwala ban this mawaali girl. Anyway, a sane person should not visit this place ...it`s useless ..Sorry for angry burst and the English and voice2text

Re: # 22

In general I agree with most of your post. But my real contention is the confrontational nature of this ``lib`` thing. Please explain to me why should I extend any favor to any one who is confrontaional with me. I think all lib-promoters are morbidly depressed and given up any hope in MANkind. This extremism is alarming and sickening.

Re: # 24
when you say confrontational libbers you are talking about those who are commonly called First Wave Feminists. They are confrontational because that is the only way they can get any attention paid to their problems. All that I know of Pakistan I know at second hand but I dont imagine they would be greeted with open arms if they showed up and said very politely, ``excuse me but I`d like to be an equal citizen too please`` any more than they would in India. Most probably they`d be patted on the head and told to run along and play or be yelled at and asked to go back and mind the chulha. So they get confrontational and garner a face and voice that cannot be easily ignored or forgotten.

(and women`s rights is not about the right not to cook or clean the house or taking a lover - its about far more than that.)

This is not limited to any one country but around the world. If you would like them to stop being confrontational then all you have to do is stop giving them an excuse to be confrontational. Nobody gets up in the morning and thinks, today i`d love to go fight with someone. or else there is something wrong with them. Most people (like confrontational feminists) are forced to fight because that is the only option open to them. If they`d been able to manage with a please and a thank you, they would have rather done it that way.

Only the weak and impressionable have role models. People have heroes but heroes change with the time until one becomes mature enough to look beyond the halo effects. All heroes are just regular human being with their own faults and weaknesses. But the tender hearts make them mystical, make them supermen or women and create legends out of people who really are/were not legend material at all.

“This is my small tribute to a woman who, along with my Nanima and mother, makes me love being a woman.”

Ms. Anais Nin was probably a good writer, might be an excellent writer, she was also a groupie or a hanger on for people like Henry Miller, Otto Rank, Gore Vidal, and Edmund Wilson in her younger days. She was not recognized as a literary figure until the 60s. Then all of a sudden, she was it. In 1940s, she was writing erotic stories for dollar a page. There is nothing wrong in writing erotic stories and there is no harm in being paid for them too. She was doing it on the side whenever she got time off her extra marital affairs with literary figures. Fact of the matter is that there is nothing wrong in having extramarital affairs. Why marriage should place restrictions on psychological and natural needs of a person? On the face of it, there was nothing wrong in her lifestyle. The truth is she lived a shallow life; the whole thing was a veneer to hide the psychological scars itched into her body like invincible tattoo. All her life she tried to show those tattoos and people thought she was expressing her womanhood and she was considered liberated.

Incest is an unpleasant fact. period. People who have suffered incest don’t wear it like a badge of honor nor do they go back and find their criminal relatives to repeat the act to make some hero out of the offender. Anais made a horrible choice of turing criminal behavior into a romantic escapade. This was not bravery, this was not revolutionary; this was not some exertion of a liberated woman. It was not even symbolic. The person doing it was looking for recognition. Only a sick person and a pervert would revisit the fire that burned her/him in the first place.
Anais Nin was a pervert, a sexual deviant and a narcissist. She may have suffered inexorably when she was a victim in her childhood. That may have made her use her sexuality for favors and recognition. She was never treated for her deviant behavior and she passed herself off in the society as a reasonably sane person. She was a sick person. A sick person can be an excellent writer but that person should never be a hero or a role model for any normal person who has some understanding of human behavior. Being in bigamous relationship is not something to be proud of; it is not some thing that makes you distinguishable; it shows that the person is in desperate need of recognition. No matter how many books she published, no matter how many dollars a page stories she wrote, her insatiable demand for recognition, recognition that was hers when her father was taking advantage of her, never diminished. She never grew up; she never came out of the cocoon because the society, she herself, and her other relatives never recognized that she was actually a sick person.
You can empathize with such a person. You admire their writings. You can appreciate their talent but identifying with such a person…

Selling is every thing. If you don’t make sales, you cannot feed millions of bodies. The sales and the marketing people carry enormous burden. They have to feed weirdo artists, crazy writers, and stupid painters. They have to design several ways to market products and often people become products too. Anything that helps the sales is good. Pervert behavior piques interest, it makes the sale. Look around even Michael Jackson has groupies and followers.


//…Somebody running after me with a Chabuk!

Farzana

You must have also experienced. Contrary to my expectations, I find many of the Chowkies to be quite conservative with pre-fixated boundaries on their thoughts be they cultural, religious or social. This is a surprise because almost all are well educated, well travelled and have had a multi-cultural experience. And have the interest to come to a web site which throws up thought provoking ideas on different topics. While one could understand this mindset on the Pakistani side which has has had a more conservative historical and social experience, there are deeply conservative voices from the Indian side as well.

Anais wrote beautiful Erotica - mild and highly enjoyable and entertaining. It is not to be confused with vulgarity. It is a distinct genre of writing. It is difficult. It requires sensitivity and skill. It is NOT easy writing and is certainly not trash.

Your articles have similar shades of sensitivity, openess and freedom. But some of the audience is holed up in their own boundaries of thought. And find it difficult to fly out of those invisible barriers.

nhk

I have not reviewed the situation in detail but believe that except areas of low education women are not at any worse position than the deprived men are. As for the relationship between the genders it is the responsibility of both genders to be decent and accomodative to each other.
Excessive aggressiveness among the the women of the West is turning men off against the females of their country. Might as well because the World can afford a reduction in population.

being well-educated, well-travelled (and some of us have only been able to afford to travel more in our imaginations than beyond carved boundaries) and having a multi-cultural experience (one can do that without even leaving india or pakistan) is no guarantee of changing the boundaries of our hearts and minds. it is some of these very people who have wittingly or unwittingly sided with conservatives, fascists and dictators in the not-so-distant past, those who have achieved those three, that is.

anais nin was far from being a perfect woman. but again, she was more than a ``sexual deviant`` or a ``sick person``. about the biography that deirdre barr wrote of her (farzana, have you read that?), anais`s brother joaquin said to barr: ````Well, you`ve proven every terrible thing I`ve long suspected that my sister had done. But you wrote it in such a way that you still allow me to love her.`` (letter to deirdre barr as told in salon interview).

and there are those who still love her. as there are who don`t.

Re: # 25

``Confrontration`` is one thing and ``down-right`` hatered is another thing. I don`t see anything wrong with protesting and striving to get equitable status in society. Many if not most men stand up with those who strive. But what feminists portray about ALL men is a picture that of a monster and nothing less. Now all of us on this website belong to thrid world countries; now please tell me how many of us have seen their mothers and sisters being chained and receiving daily beatings. Has any one of us have a sister who has been burnt alive becuase of not bringing enough dowry. How many of us have relatives who prevent their women of receiving education or do not let them wear good clothing and share with them the affairs of the household. How many of the women on this website pee in their pants as they see their fathers and brothers enter the house. Do these men don`t count? These feminists who have microphone in their hand and those who can write have portrayed us as some kind of freaks and monsters who torture them and hold them captive. They portray ALL women as cattle who have absolutely no say in any matter. This is dividing people. Even though India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan have women as Prime Minister, sometimes more than one time - elected by MEN - if I might add; Even though women have rights of suffarage since 1935; Even though even today men die to save the honor of a woman; even though a country plunges into a civil war while restoring the honor of a woman the general view in West of us is that of mosnters with harems of women as sex slaves. Thanks to the hatered preached by the so called feminists. The women must ask themselves this question; Are these women who HATE every man doing a service to them or are they misguiding them to broken houses and society where woman has to become whore in the name of freedom; are they leading them to a society where it is preached that woman is more than a body thru vagina monologues; are they going to build a society where femninists demand in one breath that its the itelligence and not the woman`s body that should be evaluated and admired and yet they demand prostition to be decalred a pensionable skill and trade along with health care and other benefits? Are we going to follow them? Should we even listen to them?

Re: # 30, urstruly:
Hey, I can not believe it. I never thought that I could agree with you!!!! But is your question about the pensionability documentable?

Urstuly,

You cant be serious.

Inquirer

``But is your question about the pensionability documentable?``

Please direct this question to saminashah

Re: # 32
What is so unbelievable? Have you seen your mother chained and you sisters doing....?

HANDS OFF - NO PICKING AND CHOOSING ALLOWED

You are sidestepping at a rate of knots: I used your word “confrontational” because I did not know then that you were talking about militant feminists. As for militant feminists, how many women do you know who heard one of them yell “ALL men are vermin” and so turned to their unoffending male family members and thought “Goddamned ^*^&^& - I should lace their food with rat poison tonight”? Women are people too. They have sufficient intellectual capacity to understand that generalizations don’t work.

So why don’t you? As a member of a third world nation and presumably access to the media, you must have come across the thousands of reports of women whose description tallies exactly with the one given by you in your reply. Just because some activists have managed to push your buttons, is it reason to cast doubt on their trails and sufferings?

Re: prostitution. Nobody wants women to sell their bodies for sex. But it happens everywhere – in Islamic, non-Islamic, secular, whatever countries. Most of this trade is based on the exploitation of poor young women who have either been forced into it or have no other viable economic option. These women are open to health risks, their children are denied a respectable future and they are at the mercy of whoever “owns” them. The activists are not asking that prostitution be advocated as every young girl’s dream job. They are asking that these women be treated with common decency. That they be allowed access to the law, against infectious disease, etc. If you can assure a society in which women will never have to take to prostitution or be forced into it, the question of their “pensionable schemes” simply does not arise.

Now please don’t tell me how that is possible in a perfect society. Once you have a perfect society, you can make that argument. This is not a perfect society and these women are looking for help. Why would anyone want these women, true victims of society, to be further victimized?

PS – I have only ever learnt Roman and Devanagiri scripts so I don’t know what 35 means.

# 35 Urstruly..

If u can please read `` Silent No More: Confronting America`s False Images of Islam`` by Paul Findley.

I found it an excellent book from someone who did not know about Islam, learnt about Islam and also taught people what Islam means.


Silent No More: Confronting America`s False Images of Islam
Findley, Paul

Amana, Paperback, 2001, 336 pgs.

``Findley here shares his personal impressions and experiences in dealing with American Muslims, their communities, and the issues and events important to them. He examines the false images of Islam that linger in American minds, the impact of these stereotypes on US national interests, what is being done to promote accurate understanding of Islam, and what more is needed. Findley chronicles the pioneering endeavors by Muslims and other activists, and documents the entry of American Muslims into mainstream American politics and the impact of their bloc vote in the 2000 elections``.

``In his recently released book Silent No More: Confronting America’s False Images of Islam, Paul Findley, a 22-year veteran of Congress, chronicles his long, far-flung trail of discovery through the World Of Islam: the false stereotypes that linger in the minds of the American people, the corrective actions that the leaders of America’s seven million Muslims are undertaking, and the community’s remarkable progress in mainstream politics``.

Steps like this are moving Muslims in America forward, gaining success, strength and
power. So your urdu article is one point of view which is also biased.
I heard in a khutba once in Pakistan, ``America talks about giving our women equal
rights and all these NGO`s are corrupting our women`` ....These were the Mullahs .So my friend an article like the one you posted is no surprise.

This discussion is getting provincialised into another bang up bewteen us versus them. It has its own peculiar problems, like the dynastic connection of the South Asian women leaders pitforking them into leadership roles of entire countries, and then the lay citizens of the country coopting what was essentially a powerful sympton of patriarchy and male domination into a triumph of locally grown feminism.

In fact there are even greater examples. Draupadi in Mahabharata is often held up as an impossibly modern character, or Chand Bibi, or so many exceptions that prove the rule.

I was however interested in the other issue raised by Farzana; about so many women writers having to write their world to find themselves. This is particulalry poignant in the case of some, like Sylvia Plath. Though in the begining feminists held Ted Hughes guilty of Sylvia`s suicide, all serious lot are now settled on the issue that the Sylvia-Ted partnership fed each other`s creativity. And that Ted alone was too soft a target.

Some of Plath`s journal entries are viscerating. As much as her best poems, and yet more accessible in prose.

I feel that most male autobiographies are self deprecating or ironic when analysing their lives, while female auto-biographical writing has a far more emotional edge, and therefore perhaps more partisan.

What is it? I think the vents of these two volcanoes are wired separately. One bursts through the heart, the other through the mine. But make no mistake, without creative talent, both accounts will fall flat.

In terms of male autobiography, Naipaul`s letters to Father comes to mind. ..though not quite an autobiography. Even Frank McCourt`s Angela`s Ashes is a quirky, funny and touching take on his life, but never a lacerating account of his internal struggles...like Plath`s or Anais. Do you think it has to do with more internal ir-resolutions that need to be sorted out for women artists than men?

Contd. from 35 by Urstruly;

Prof. Khurshid is brilliant. Irshad Haqqani is his usual play-safe lick-in-style self. In any case he brought it to our attention is good enough to get a Chowk-rating of 1.
Prof Khurshid is five star, as usual.

Re: # 38

Harish - I think things are changing... a bit.

Let me start with Plath. My view of her journals is somewhat tainted by the fact that they were edited by Hughes. Reading it, I think that perhaps it is possible that he was only looking it over as an editor pure and simple and that the stuff discarded might have been done so with readability in mind but did he have to destroy it? You have to admit that his hand being so involved in it raises the eyebrow a teeny bit at least. Of course, it didn’t do him any favors that his next wife killed herself too.

As for the volcanoes, you may be right. I think men had the freedom to roam and discover the outer world whereas women had to discover it within. When I read Woolf, I thought it was telling that she thought of a room with a view. At the same time, there was Hemingway and Fitzgerald and the rest of them living in Paris and discovering themselves long distance as it were. There are always exceptions of course – I remember an introduction to Colette in which the essayist wrote that her idea of a perfect writing life would have been 50,000 pounds a year, a villa on the Riviera with a view and a pretty boy or two to keep her company. :)

But I think its different now. A little. Two of the best descriptions of (women’s) inner life that I had the privilege of reading came from two very young men. One of them wrote of marital rape and the other about a mother’s depression – and they were intensely feminine and beautifully written.

That said, there is a definite difference between men and women and how they write – the language, the descriptions used, the character development, all of it is subtly different. When women pick up a pen they write of the world within themselves. When men pick up a pen they write of themselves in the world. Each is writing of a mirror image but the reflection is always shaded by gender and I think that is very right. I don’t feel like reading women all the time just as I don’t feel like reading men all the time. As you said, yin and yang.

Amrita,

I disagree with the idea that writing is inherently gender implicated or inextricable to gender, race or class. Look at the work of Sara de Ibanez-a Latin Modernist, and Jean Toomer-an African American experimentalist. Both believed that ideas and language could transcend identity.

Samina - I think in some rare cases, it comes naturally so. Usually, however, it needs to be developed consciously. Women tend to use language differently than men - they use more words, especially descriptive ones and more women writers use language to explore language within the parameters of literature.

I did not mean to give the impression that language and gender is inextricably linked - but it is definitely subconsciously linked.

Amrita,

I cant agree with this claim-too generalized.

Samina - that`s fine. :)

There is this study that I am thinking of which I`ll pass on when I find it. My point`s based on it but I dont seem to be doing a good job of explaining it. :(

FYI:

Amrita has been unmasked as the interactor formerly known as Salim Another misuse and waste of Chowkie time.

Curses! Foiled again!

meanwhile, check this essay out. Not the study I was referring to but an essay on Woolf that touches upon some of what I was trying to convey:

Woolf

Really good write-up. Anais Nin happens to be one of my favourite writers. Till date haven`t come across such sensitive, well-written erotica. If someone knows of any do pass on the info!