Pakistan’s Software Industry

#291 by Netizen

India nuke explosions were a masterstroke, however differently our Paki friends would like to imagine it. With that explosion, India announced to the world (and specially China) that it was a nuclear power and no one could mess around with it. It also forced Pakistan to come out of the closet. The result is there for everyone to see. Crippling sanctions weakened an already faltering Paki economy, while the Indian economy was hardly affected. The West realized its mistake and quickly lifted the sanctions on India, and were it not for 9/11, the sanctions would have taken Pakistan down the drain now.

Today, there is a new found respect for India, both due to its impressive economic growth and its military might. The USAF held joint air exercises with the IAF. Singapore and Israel have expressed their keenness on one. France too wants similar exercises.

Pakistan, on the other hand, has compounded its problems by indulging in the worst proliferation of nuke technology in history, by selling nuke technology to North Korea, Iran, Libya, and god knows how many more countries. For all the bonhomie on the surface, its strongest military ally, the US is loathe to sell it advanced equipment, knowing fully that Pakistan cannot be trusted.

So in a way, 1998 marks a turning point in the history of the subcontinent, India emerging stronger and respected, and Pakistan, weaker and reviled.

#291 by Netizen

India nuke explosions were a masterstroke, however differently our Paki friends would like to imagine it. With that explosion, India announced to the world (and specially China) that it was a nuclear power and no one could mess around with it. It also forced Pakistan to come out of the closet. The result is there for everyone to see. Crippling sanctions weakened an already faltering Paki economy, while the Indian economy was hardly affected. The West realized its mistake and quickly lifted the sanctions on India, and were it not for 9/11, the sanctions would have taken Pakistan down the drain now.

Today, there is a new found respect for India, both due to its impressive economic growth and its military might. The USAF held joint air exercises with the IAF. Singapore and Israel have expressed their keenness on one. France too wants similar exercises.

Pakistan, on the other hand, has compounded its problems by indulging in the worst proliferation of nuke technology in history, by selling nuke technology to North Korea, Iran, Libya, and god knows how many more countries. For all the bonhomie on the surface, its strongest military ally, the US is loathe to sell it advanced equipment, knowing fully that Pakistan cannot be trusted.

So in a way, 1998 marks a turning point in the history of the subcontinent, India emerging stronger and respected, and Pakistan, weaker and reviled.

Re: # 278

.... because it is all a grand ISI conspiracy... I am trying to expose it. We are merely duping the world.

I can`t believe a simple article on KSE has had such a profoundly upsetting effect on the Indians... Goes to show that they are obsessed and bigoted... have you seen any Pakistani respond like this to any news of Indian success?

So .... inevitably if I say something good, your insecure li`l a$$ has to get insecure about India and its BSE ?

Re: # 241

Thanks for admitting the truth, even if you think you are being sarcastic.

Re: # 260

But wait till I start quoting M J Akbar..... he too will become ``obscure`` for you... just like frontline, Asianage, The Hindu are all ``obscure`` papers when they say something good about Pakistan... and the gospel of the truth when the they say something bad.

Re: # 290 HP

``Indian nuke explosion was a blunder of the highest order.``

I don`t blame the indian govt. (congress or BJP) for conducting the tests, if required for gather data. But conducting the tests and proclaiming itself to be a super-power was really a stupid idea. BJP must have have done that so as to show some tangible ``results`` of its governance till that point of time. As i don`t recollect there were any other progress made, they fumbled a lot initially. But you have to keep in mind that the previous PV Narsinhma Raos govt was also going to conduct the tests but was pressured by the americans to back off. Hence, there was so much of secrecy involved in the Pokharan tests.

``If we attempt to use the “who benefits” theory here, I am afraid by ass-plodding nuke, India lost its convention superiority and its defensive depth. Pakistan and India both had to follow thru on the next step of the nuke race and that was acquiring delivery capabilities. Now for all practical purposes, Pakistan can target any part of India and that is not something that benefits India at all. ``

Pakistan didn`t start acquiring Ghauri, Ghaznavi, Abdali ( korean and Chinese) misillies after chagai tests. They had acquired them well before that, hence their is no credence to the fact that they did not have a delivery platform. Same with india, it had prithvi, agni well before that. Also bith countries keep on buying fighter planes which could deliver n-bombs.

``With one stroke of insanity, India lost both conventional weapon advantage and it now has no defensive depth. It means that India lost the capability to confine the conflict into mere border areas and to a few Indian cities within Pakistan air force range.``

I would not agree with that. Imagine, if india had immediately attacked pakistan after conducting its tests, do you think pakistan would not have retaliated with nukes had there been a chance that it was going to be completely routed. Do you think that simply becuase pak had not conducted its ``tests`` it cannot deliver nukes? I don`t think so. Pak had that deterrent since 86. During 90 also we came close to nuke war.

``The RSS/BJP govt also communalize the Kashmir issue. ``
can you please elaborate.

``Before they went out of business, they tried to use better relations-with-Pakistan card to gain Muslim votes in elections thus implying that Muslims in India still are pro Pakistan. ``

they are not out of business. They were just 3-4 seats behind congress. infact the business of politics has changed in the country. its an era of coaliation politics. parties keep on joining groups and within each group they fight among themselves. Regarding relations with Pak, they wanted to show that they can bring peace and credit should be given to Vaj. who even after kargil war still believed that things can change. The present bonhomie between the two countries are because of his preseverence. Regarding indian muslims and pro-pak comment that you have made, even his/BJP`s bitterest critic wouldn`t make such a baseless argument.

``I can go on and on but I will try to contrast the RSS/BJP childish and stupid policies to the maturity in all aspects of diplomacy that is being shown by the current congress sarkar.``

what maturity are you talking about. I hope its not about the Sri-Muza bus service, as it was BJP that came up with this proposal with Sharif.

``The RSS/BJP pushed kashmiris into Pakistani hands whereas the current sarkar is working to pacify the kashmiris first because they realize that it is first and the foremost an Indian problem.``

Can you please elaborate citing facts. I hope you know that BJP has formed 5 year govt only since 98. infact it was during their rule that j&k got a free and fair election (even though boycotted by most kashmiris). Farooq abdullah, who was part of the central govt lost to Mufti mohd sayeed.

``In the last three or four months, I have become an ardent admirer of PM Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi as I think they are both handling the relations with Pakistan part admirably and with a maturity that was lacking in the previous India government. ``

as i said the present bonhomie is just a continuation of the Lahore/Agra Yatra, cricket diplomacy that the previous govt started. dont you think so? what major decisions has the present govt. taken other then waiving the passport condition in order to travel in the bus?
Is the continuation of the Baglihar dam a mature decision wrt Pakistan?

#286 by rsridhar

As you said this topic has been beaten to death on this forum and time has proved the Tahmed and if may add my argument right that Indian nuke explosion was a blunder of the highest order. We know that the current congress sakar also holds this view as expressed by Natwar Singh recently.

“By being an overt nuclear power (from a covert one which India was in the past) and forcing Pak to follow suit, India ensured that Pak exposed its nuclear fallacies to the world”

I afraid you are not thinking thru this argument. It would be sheer stupidity on India’s part to turn the whole region into a nuke confrontation region just to prove that Pakistan had nukes. In fact, by nuke ass-plosion(just a play on explosion) India made it whole lot easier for Pakistan to sort of come out of the closet. But it was actually India that came out of the closet first. This was common knowledge that both countries were nuke ass-plosion-ready but neither Pakistan nor India needed to change that by making that so explicit.
If we attempt to use the “who benefits” theory here, I am afraid by ass-plodding nuke, India lost its convention superiority and its defensive depth. Pakistan and India both had to follow thru on the next step of the nuke race and that was acquiring delivery capabilities. Now for all practical purposes, Pakistan can target any part of India and that is not something that benefits India at all.
With one stroke of insanity, India lost both conventional weapon advantage and it now has no defensive depth. It means that India lost the capability to confine the conflict into mere border areas and to a few Indian cities within Pakistan air force range.

The reality is the BJP/RSS govt. was the worst thing that happened to India in the last 57 years and slowly people would begin to realize that. Zia destroyed the Pakistani society by inserting religion into the society. Similarly, RSS/BJP successfully divided the Indian society on communal lines and it would take a long time to recover from that.
The nuke ass-plosion was just one mistake. The RSS/BJP govt also communalize the Kashmir issue. Before they went out of business, they tried to use better relations-with-Pakistan card to gain Muslim votes in elections thus implying that Muslims in India still are pro Pakistan.

I can go on and on but I will try to contrast the RSS/BJP childish and stupid policies to the maturity in all aspects of diplomacy that is being shown by the current congress sarkar.
Kashmir is an Indian problem whether Indians like to hear that or not. They have to resolve this issue with kashmirs and the correct policy for India should be to work with Kashmiris first to neutralize any outside influence. The RSS/BJP pushed kashmiris into Pakistani hands whereas the current sarkar is working to pacify the kashmiris first because they realize that it is first and the foremost an Indian problem.
In the last three or four months, I have become an ardent admirer of PM Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi as I think they are both handling the relations with Pakistan part admirably and with a maturity that was lacking in the previous India government.



Ha! always-facing-the-floor-boy (Gujju) has a new nic.
Prashant???

Further...another popular misconception goes that RSS/VHP are `upper caste` organisations. And that the Hindutwa movement is upper caste dominated. But thats not true. Brahmins do not send their kids to RSS shakhas. Brahmins send their kids to convent schools. Brahmins do not indulge in communal violence. Brahmins never do any fighting. So who are the people who dominate RSS/VHP/Hindutwa philosophy ? Who are the people who fight for the hindu cause ?

#Narendra Modi - low caste hindu.
#Advani - casteless sindhi.
#Uma Bharthi - low caste hindu.
#Bal Thackrey - middle caste hindu.
#most of the sadhus in India , the sort you see in the Kumbh Mela- lower caste/middle castes
#The Kar Sevaks who broke that Babri Masjid - lower caste hindus.
#The Gujarathis who raped muslim women and killed muslim men in Gujarat - lower caste hindus. Mostly dalits.

Sridar , Netizen...

Caste discrimination no longer exists in the cities and towns of India...Here being a dalit is advantageous as it means access to 50% of the seats in colleges and 50% of government jobs.

I have never spent a great deal of time in rural India...but I am assuming on heresay that caste system exists there. But its not upper castes who discriminate against dalits , because most of the upper castes - the brahmins - have sold all their holdings and left the villages of India long time back. So it is actually the `Other Backward Castes` -OBCs -the Yadavs , Bhumihars , Gowdas - folks in the villages who have now filled up the void left behind by the upper castes. Not being as educated or enlightened as the brahmins...it is the OBCs who still carry on discriminating against those belonging to castes lower than theirs...and funnily enough the OBCs are also given reservation in jobs and colleges. OBCs on strength of their numbers , dominate the ruling political class.

My point is....contrary to popular perception , if caste discrimoination exists in India , its not perpetrated by the upper castes on the lower castes....it is infact perpetrated by the lower castes on the even lower castes....

The upper castes have moved on. As I said before , the brahmins are an endangered species in India. Within a decade from now , I am willing to bet that we will have more brahmins in US than in India...

re:#285 by Netizen
This topic has been discussed in the past. I said the same thing u are saying now but few Paksitanis here will believe u. They would just like to think that going nuclear was the best thing that happened to Pak in many many years.
Sridhar

re:#275 by tahmed32
Tahmed Sahib,
You are not going to change your stance on this. We have discussed this ad nauseum in the past. In a way, Pak`s tit-for-tat reply was inevitable, given the geopolitical situation. I also know that there is a lot of pride involved and most Pakistanis would like to say that their`s is the only Islamic nuclear power in the world. I think, a better way to approach this issue is to see who benefitted from being a nuclear power, India or Pak?
By being an overt nuclear power (from a covert one which India was in the past) and forcing Pak to follow suit, India ensured that Pak exposed its nuclear fallacies to the world. Pak was all along maintaining that it did not have any nuclear technology. Then it came out with nuclear explosions in 2 weeks. Everyone knew a covert operation has been going on and Pak gave final proof of that. Then came the expose about A.Q. Khan and his proliferation to North Korea and Iran. None other than former PM of Pak (Benazir Bhutto) has recently revealed how Mr Xeorx Khan passed on the nuclear tech to Iran. Nobody, i mean nobody believes that the Army was not in the know of things.
But Pak today has become a necessary ally for USA. Pak is doing USA`s dirty job of mopping up the terrorists. Mushy seems to be doing a good job of it and has earned his goodwill in US. Goodwill and another 2 years of term as President. And, he has been doing a good job of getting the most out of US while Pak is still needed. But the question most Pakis should be asking is: what after the war on terrorism is over? How long can Pak continue to depend on USA`s largesse based on its services? How long is this client-paymaster relation to continue?

India`s relationship with USA post-nuclear explosion has also seen ups and downs.

In the beginning, there were a lot of criticisms. One US Senator even said that India has not just shot itself in the foot but in the head as well. I remember only Henry Kissinger coming on T.V (with Lou Dobbs) to say that the world has nothing to fear from India being a nuclear state.
Slowly, India and US started talking. Talks between Jaswant Singh and Strobb Talbot have been one of the most wide ranging ever between 2 Foreign secretaries. As the dust settled down, i think US started seein India more as an ally in the area, even as a counterweight to China. There is now talk of sale of F16 and even transfer of technology. There is talk about sale of Patriot missile system. This is all incredible.
There is a clear shift in policies when dealing with the 2 countires.
The following is from an Editorial in the Daily Times:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_15-3-2005_pg3_1

(With India, the US is developing strategic ties; with Pakistan, it requires turning the country around and keeping it secure. Its relations with India cover a much-broader ambit — political, economic and military; with Pakistan, the primary aim is to monitor the country and keep it on the track where General Pervez Musharraf guided and put it since September 13, 2001. Pakistan also, in this policy thrust, becomes a very important state in the “war against terrorism”. This necessitates give-and-take within a framework in which Indo-US relations do not undergo any unnecessary and avoidable friction. In any case, the idea is to improve US ties with the two while also nudging them to improve their own ties and become less suspicious of each other’s motives.)
Given the change in the situation now, it becomes necessary for Pakistanis to reflect back and question the logic of nuclear explosion in the first place.
Sridhar

Re: # 281

``It just doesnt add up when you say that India wanted to provoke Pakistan to retaliate and thus get the sanctions lifted for both countries.``

I said pakistan was provoked to go for nuclear testing so that it would also end up getting stick rather than a carrot. Indian leadership must have realised the stupidity and hence the moratorium on the tests. I think Sharif went on for the explosions amid intense pressure from the public.

``His services to ensuring that India could never threaten Pakistan have gone totally unappreciated. :-) ``
As long as pak stays away from fomenting trouble india won`t threaten it. If pak continues then I am sorry the sub-continent couls still witness nuke war.
Also, i remember paks promise to denuclearise if india does so. What if india does that, may be then india will threaten it using its massive military buildup.
Once again, Pak had nuclear deterrent way back during Rajivs time. Why would Advani conduct the test and wait for pakistan to build and test the bomb in 2-3 weeks after indian tests. wouldn`t he rather attack pak when they did not have the bomb?

``While we Pakistanis are quick to criticise our leaders (and for good reason), our leadership has been strong enough to silence Advani 1998 and bring Vajpayee to Lahore. And to give India a clear cut response in 2002.``

It does not bode well if pakis think that they forced Vajpayee to come to Lahore. As long as pak doesn`t push in militants no one thinks much of Pakistan. Vajpayee just wanted to give peace a try. Not once but twice/thrice. He even invited Mushy to Agra, that too after kargil and when he (Mushy) was not even considered an legitimate head of the country. He was the one to purpose Srinagar-Mushaffarabad bus service. Indian leadership thinks to carry on other bussiness while keeping the issue of kashmir at bay, whereas pak leadership clings to it.
Leadership? Who was the leader during kargil? Sharif to the best of my knowledge didn`t even now what was happening there. It also doesn`t look good when the leader of the country (sharif) is deposed off unceremoniously and made to run for his life and brave soldiers who laid their lives for the country were left to rot in the enemy land?

What was the response in 2002 you are referring to?

tahmed32 #279

`` On 1., please look up the definition of ``pariah`` and then come talk to me. ``

What is a pariah ? It was not like Pakistan or Pakistanis was subject to diplomatic isolation, sporting boycotts or mass deportations before Sep-11 or May 1998. USA and Europe were importing billions of dollars of textiles per year from Pakistan throughout the 1990s.
Pakistan economic problems were a result of mismanagement, poor human resource development and poor economic infrastrucuture. What you got after Sep-11 was a breather from paying interest on your debt for 5-10 years. I do not think the West waived any debt you owed them. This waiver on interest payments and crack down on hawla schemes has led to a big boost in FOREX reserves.

`` On 2., please google ``Pakistan sanctions timeline`` and educate yourself on the timeline when sanctions were lifted (see the Brownback Amendments I and II of 1998/1999 in particular), and then come tell me I am ``wrong`` on the sanctions. ``

What sanctions are we talking about ? Pressler amendment ?? Pakistan did not obtain any weapons from USA because of Pressler amendment. That was true until Sep-11 2001. Even after lifting of ``sanctions`` Pakistan has not obtained anything of significant offensive value.
Pakistan has not obtained Blackhawk helicopters, F-16 fighter jets, AWACS aircraft or Patriot missiles. All of the mentioned items have been high on the wishlist of Pakistani defense ministry officials. Pakistan has gotten C-130 transport aircraft, a few Apache helicopters, communication equipment and light transport helicopters.

A better question to ask why did USA impose such a sweeping sanction regime like the Pressler amendment. I do not see the security of USA being degraded by selling Pakistan C-130 aircraft and a few F-16 spare parts. For that matter I do not see any drawbacks to US security in selling those aircraft to China.

`` On 3, please use common sense - do you seriously think any responsible government would trust its security to the goodwill of India? Why would any responsible government even chose not to have military parity and thus be able to deal with the other party from a position of equal strength?? ``

I never asked Pakistani state to entrust their security to others. Do not infer too much from nukes. They raise the bar for potential adversaries to attack Pakistan. They do not prevent war completely. If 9-11 hijackers decided to take out four nuclear power facilities in USA instead of their original targets I doubt Pakistani nukes would matter much.

To the degree they have been no conflicts between nuclear powers it is because nuclear powers were status quo powers and responsible states. Pakistan`s support for irredentist movements like the Taliban, tolerance of Al Qaida, nuclear proliferation does not make it a responsible state irrespective of what Bush/Powell/Rice say.

`` On 4, while I am sure it gives you emotional satisfaction to talk about the developed nations not wasting their energy on Pakistan vs the ``bigger fish``, the fact is that economic progress is not an either/or proposition. Nor is your point even relevant to what I am saying. ``

You get the impression from some Pakistanis that what they do is the center of attraction in the universe. Western Europe, USA and Japan have always provided assistance to lesser developed states throughout the world. The interest and amounts have varied time to time. The assistance has been from governments and also from private agents (individuals, NGOs etc.) I do not think there has been any sudden interest from anyone except USA. I would guess that USA is interested in Pakistan to finish off Osama, to control Afghanistan, to prevent Iran from getting nukes and maybe to build a gas pipeline to Central Asia. I still have not figured out USA rationale for Iraq invasion.

#282

I`m sorry, a few hours of reading will do no good in your case.

#280

Has it ever occurred to you that you beat even AlephNull in posting stupidity here?

Shallow end of the gene pool fool! Crap on a stick.