Promoting Research in Pakistan: A Few Ideas
Omer Cheema March 15, 2005
#81 Posted by arjun_m on March 21, 2005 10:22:27 am
#80 by amit on March 21, 2005 9:34am PT
I am as against jihadis as you are.
The pakis aren`t against the jihadis...If they told you they are and you believed them, you`re really naive..
They will get more public support and more money for their agenda.
Ummm...they`ll get more support then they currently have...?
We cannot have an out and out war,
right....We`re not the ones trying to change the status quo...The pakis are...They`re the ones who initiated kargil and the insurgency...not India..
From a long-term perspective, we need to settle matters with Pakistan, if we want to reach our potential on the global stage. India is taking a bottom-up approach this time, where ordinary people to people contacts are resulting in pressure on the governments to work with each other.
Settle matters HOW?!!? The pakis want Indian Kashmir...are you prepared to give it to them? I`ve got news for you..the majority of your billion+ countrymen aren`t prepared to do that...
The natural kinship of the people is coming out and replacing the paranoia.
Wait till the natural pakiship of the pakis comes out and they demand India hand over Kashmir to them in the interests of a ``peaceful south asia``...
Bottom line is if France and Germany can be friends, why not India and Pakistan?
They only became friends after the nazis were defeated and Germany was disarmed...
The reconciliation among Punjabis is the best outcome of the process as it means that the key decision making community in Pakistan is now pro-peace.
Normal leopard can`t change their spots...maybe pakistan punjabi leopards can...but i wouldn`t bet on it...
I am as against jihadis as you are.
The pakis aren`t against the jihadis...If they told you they are and you believed them, you`re really naive..
They will get more public support and more money for their agenda.
Ummm...they`ll get more support then they currently have...?
We cannot have an out and out war,
right....We`re not the ones trying to change the status quo...The pakis are...They`re the ones who initiated kargil and the insurgency...not India..
From a long-term perspective, we need to settle matters with Pakistan, if we want to reach our potential on the global stage. India is taking a bottom-up approach this time, where ordinary people to people contacts are resulting in pressure on the governments to work with each other.
Settle matters HOW?!!? The pakis want Indian Kashmir...are you prepared to give it to them? I`ve got news for you..the majority of your billion+ countrymen aren`t prepared to do that...
The natural kinship of the people is coming out and replacing the paranoia.
Wait till the natural pakiship of the pakis comes out and they demand India hand over Kashmir to them in the interests of a ``peaceful south asia``...
Bottom line is if France and Germany can be friends, why not India and Pakistan?
They only became friends after the nazis were defeated and Germany was disarmed...
The reconciliation among Punjabis is the best outcome of the process as it means that the key decision making community in Pakistan is now pro-peace.
Normal leopard can`t change their spots...maybe pakistan punjabi leopards can...but i wouldn`t bet on it...
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#80 Posted by amit on March 21, 2005 9:34:32 am
Re:mohar and arjun_m
I am as against jihadis as you are. I have family members in the Indian army, so I have no love lost for those scumbags.
The question is what is your solution to the problem? If we just continue the tensions with Pakistan, it will actually strengthen the jihadies. They will get more public support and more money for their agenda. We cannot have an out and out war, given the nuclear capabilities. So what do you suggest?
I think India is adopting a calibrated, smart strategy. From a long-term perspective, we need to settle matters with Pakistan, if we want to reach our potential on the global stage. India is taking a bottom-up approach this time, where ordinary people to people contacts are resulting in pressure on the governments to work with each other. Given that both sides have well defined borders and nukes, people are secure enough to interact with each other with warmth without fearing that the other side will take advantage of them. The natural kinship of the people is coming out and replacing the paranoia. The reconciliation among Punjabis is the best outcome of the process as it means that the key decision making community in Pakistan is now pro-peace. Bottom line is if France and Germany can be friends, why not India and Pakistan?
I am as against jihadis as you are. I have family members in the Indian army, so I have no love lost for those scumbags.
The question is what is your solution to the problem? If we just continue the tensions with Pakistan, it will actually strengthen the jihadies. They will get more public support and more money for their agenda. We cannot have an out and out war, given the nuclear capabilities. So what do you suggest?
I think India is adopting a calibrated, smart strategy. From a long-term perspective, we need to settle matters with Pakistan, if we want to reach our potential on the global stage. India is taking a bottom-up approach this time, where ordinary people to people contacts are resulting in pressure on the governments to work with each other. Given that both sides have well defined borders and nukes, people are secure enough to interact with each other with warmth without fearing that the other side will take advantage of them. The natural kinship of the people is coming out and replacing the paranoia. The reconciliation among Punjabis is the best outcome of the process as it means that the key decision making community in Pakistan is now pro-peace. Bottom line is if France and Germany can be friends, why not India and Pakistan?
#79 Posted by rsridhar on March 21, 2005 9:07:23 am
re:#74 by Netizen
(Remember how Mushy tundered in Agra that the ``moral`` support to the kashmiri ``freedom fighters`` would continue. What made him so accomodative? Something really must have happened to make him a dove of peace.)
Uncle Sam`s whammy up Mushy boy`s rear end? What else?
Sridhar
(Remember how Mushy tundered in Agra that the ``moral`` support to the kashmiri ``freedom fighters`` would continue. What made him so accomodative? Something really must have happened to make him a dove of peace.)
Uncle Sam`s whammy up Mushy boy`s rear end? What else?
Sridhar
#78 Posted by arjun_m on March 21, 2005 5:32:34 am
#71 by amit on March 20, 2005 4:13pm PT
Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy.
the afghan people were innocent victims...The pakis, OTOH, were willing participants...Thye jumped into the afghan conflict willingly and for their own reasons....
The question is whether jihad is hard-wired into the Pakistani system and will reemerge?
Yes and Yes...It`s part of the paki mythology..pakis being the martial race and the hindus being banias..and the paki wet dream of kicking India out of Indian Kashmir...
Right now jihad has ended
If you think it`s ended because of the goodness in paki hearts(and not trailer park lynndie), i`ve got a bridge to sell...
This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad.
I think a ``Indian-bullet`` to ``Paki-jihadi`` people contact has a better chance of stopping jihad...
you DO live in cloud cuckoo land, don`t you?
Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy.
the afghan people were innocent victims...The pakis, OTOH, were willing participants...Thye jumped into the afghan conflict willingly and for their own reasons....
The question is whether jihad is hard-wired into the Pakistani system and will reemerge?
Yes and Yes...It`s part of the paki mythology..pakis being the martial race and the hindus being banias..and the paki wet dream of kicking India out of Indian Kashmir...
Right now jihad has ended
If you think it`s ended because of the goodness in paki hearts(and not trailer park lynndie), i`ve got a bridge to sell...
This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad.
I think a ``Indian-bullet`` to ``Paki-jihadi`` people contact has a better chance of stopping jihad...
you DO live in cloud cuckoo land, don`t you?
#77 Posted by harish_hyd on March 20, 2005 10:35:07 pm
#71 by amit
[This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad.]
You are forgetting the fact that for Pakistan, the priority item has always been Jihad against India (well-meaning folks like Charlie notwithstanding) over all other benefits of peace. Pakistan is like the vulture that keeps returning to the caracass even when driven away again and again.
Pakistan today talks about cooperation because it is looking down the American barrel and also because it is seeking an image makeover. Once the crisis passes, it will be back to business as usual at the Jihad Headquarters, Inc.
[This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad.]
You are forgetting the fact that for Pakistan, the priority item has always been Jihad against India (well-meaning folks like Charlie notwithstanding) over all other benefits of peace. Pakistan is like the vulture that keeps returning to the caracass even when driven away again and again.
Pakistan today talks about cooperation because it is looking down the American barrel and also because it is seeking an image makeover. Once the crisis passes, it will be back to business as usual at the Jihad Headquarters, Inc.
#76 Posted by harish_hyd on March 20, 2005 10:00:35 pm
#71 by amit
[Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad.]
This proposition sounds frighteningly similar to the Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai stuff that was peddled in the 50s and 60s by Nehru. We all know what it led to.
There is a saying that goes something like this, ``Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me``. India has been fooled once, and now you are inviting India`s enemies to fool us once again.
[Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad.]
This proposition sounds frighteningly similar to the Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai stuff that was peddled in the 50s and 60s by Nehru. We all know what it led to.
There is a saying that goes something like this, ``Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me``. India has been fooled once, and now you are inviting India`s enemies to fool us once again.
#75 Posted by satyamvada on March 20, 2005 8:38:52 pm
Amit-bhai,
You are displaying abject ignorance of Pakiland.
Pakiland`s jihadi policies started on Aug 14.1947.
In the 50`s Pakiland started a process of removing all Indian authored books from
its libraries. It sent in infiltrators into Kashmir in 1948 - try to find out what they
were called. Also, find out when the word `mujahideen` was used first in Pakistan.
#74 Posted by Netizen on March 20, 2005 7:09:13 pm
Re: # 71 amit
``Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy.``
But now they have realised its potential in Kashmir. In Punjab too they were shooting off the shoulders of Khalistanis. Remember how Mushy tundered in Agra that the ``moral`` support to the kashmiri ``freedom fighters`` would continue. What made him so accomodative? Something really must have happened to make him a dove of peace.
``Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad. This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad. ``
Hopefully so. I do agree that we should increase people to people contact and economic cooperation. We have equally important issues to attend at home. But thats what india has been in favor of for a long time. But Pak sees all these issues throught the prism of Kashmir. Hopefully they will also realise that there are many things beyond kashmir.
What pak thinks is that it has done its part by stopping the jihadi tap, now india should do its part by delivering kashmir valley to pak or setting it free. Thats what i have realised talking with pakis here. They want india to be ``reasonable`` and ``accomodative`` to their demands which they could not achieve through a decade old jihad. They also want peace and prosperity but on their terms. Thats why the peace initiative trips by Vajp. needn`t blossom so fast.
``However, if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time. ``
India needs to promote cooperation and trade but need to keep its gun powder dry.
``Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy.``
But now they have realised its potential in Kashmir. In Punjab too they were shooting off the shoulders of Khalistanis. Remember how Mushy tundered in Agra that the ``moral`` support to the kashmiri ``freedom fighters`` would continue. What made him so accomodative? Something really must have happened to make him a dove of peace.
``Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad. This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad. ``
Hopefully so. I do agree that we should increase people to people contact and economic cooperation. We have equally important issues to attend at home. But thats what india has been in favor of for a long time. But Pak sees all these issues throught the prism of Kashmir. Hopefully they will also realise that there are many things beyond kashmir.
What pak thinks is that it has done its part by stopping the jihadi tap, now india should do its part by delivering kashmir valley to pak or setting it free. Thats what i have realised talking with pakis here. They want india to be ``reasonable`` and ``accomodative`` to their demands which they could not achieve through a decade old jihad. They also want peace and prosperity but on their terms. Thats why the peace initiative trips by Vajp. needn`t blossom so fast.
``However, if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time. ``
India needs to promote cooperation and trade but need to keep its gun powder dry.
#73 Posted by mohar11 on March 20, 2005 4:39:02 pm
Re: # 70 Netizen
//...Once the pressure is off, jihadis would start trickling in....//
This simple logic donot reach people with heads in cloud-nine.
//...Once the pressure is off, jihadis would start trickling in....//
This simple logic donot reach people with heads in cloud-nine.
#72 Posted by mohar11 on March 20, 2005 4:37:34 pm
Re: # 71
//...if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time...//
Yeah sure. Just like - our response is ``ferocious`` against the on-going jihad [no, this jihad has not ended].
Pakis have executed jihad pretty much with no response - virtually un-deterred. Now you come along and say next time it happens, we are going to respond ``ferociously``. Man - you are pathetic.
//...if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time...//
Yeah sure. Just like - our response is ``ferocious`` against the on-going jihad [no, this jihad has not ended].
Pakis have executed jihad pretty much with no response - virtually un-deterred. Now you come along and say next time it happens, we are going to respond ``ferociously``. Man - you are pathetic.
#71 Posted by amit on March 20, 2005 4:13:28 pm
Re:Netizen#70 and others
Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy. The question is whether jihad is hard-wired into the Pakistani system and will reemerge? We dont know the answer to that. Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad. This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad. So we have a window of opportunity to get rid of the problem forever. However, if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time.
Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy. The question is whether jihad is hard-wired into the Pakistani system and will reemerge? We dont know the answer to that. Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad. This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad. So we have a window of opportunity to get rid of the problem forever. However, if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time.
#70 Posted by Netizen on March 20, 2005 3:09:29 pm
#66 by amit
``Look, there has been a significant policy shift in Pakistan over the past several years. Maybe it has been under US pressure, but still it has happened. ``
thats the scary part. Once the pressure is off, jihadis would start trickling in. If that change of heart would have happened in Pak due to self-introspection and general good will, it would been really different.
``Look, there has been a significant policy shift in Pakistan over the past several years. Maybe it has been under US pressure, but still it has happened. ``
thats the scary part. Once the pressure is off, jihadis would start trickling in. If that change of heart would have happened in Pak due to self-introspection and general good will, it would been really different.
#69 Posted by bongdongs on March 20, 2005 11:07:34 am
#66
``There are still jihadi elements left in Pakistan but they are non-state actors.``
How does the Kool-aid taste?
``There are still jihadi elements left in Pakistan but they are non-state actors.``
How does the Kool-aid taste?
#68 Posted by mohar11 on March 20, 2005 8:31:31 am
Re: # 65 charlie
//....I believe that if in world, Pakistanis can make good friendship based on total understanding, it is only Indians...//
At personal level pakis get along with Indians. That`s true now, and that was true before. That was true even at height of jihadic frenzy [ in fact Indians are only people who give pakis any respect - everybody else gives them full cavity search ]
So why did jihad [against India] start in the first place? How come it continued for so long. And how would the ``good friendsip`` stop jihad now? This is not first time Indians are showing ``warm feelings`` for pakis - they also did the same for Zia in 1987. And jihad started shortly after that.
Jihad is down only because of 9/11. Only because of daisy-cutters and deportations. If 9/11 would not have happened - jihad would still be going on in full force against india. people like amit don`t realize that. And if situation changes for better - jihad will start again. Jihad infrastructure in intact - Indian Defence Minister has said as much.
So those who will like to live in a fools` paradise are welcome to do so.
//....I believe that if in world, Pakistanis can make good friendship based on total understanding, it is only Indians...//
At personal level pakis get along with Indians. That`s true now, and that was true before. That was true even at height of jihadic frenzy [ in fact Indians are only people who give pakis any respect - everybody else gives them full cavity search ]
So why did jihad [against India] start in the first place? How come it continued for so long. And how would the ``good friendsip`` stop jihad now? This is not first time Indians are showing ``warm feelings`` for pakis - they also did the same for Zia in 1987. And jihad started shortly after that.
Jihad is down only because of 9/11. Only because of daisy-cutters and deportations. If 9/11 would not have happened - jihad would still be going on in full force against india. people like amit don`t realize that. And if situation changes for better - jihad will start again. Jihad infrastructure in intact - Indian Defence Minister has said as much.
So those who will like to live in a fools` paradise are welcome to do so.
#67 Posted by arjun_m on March 20, 2005 7:18:19 am
#66 by amit on March 20, 2005 0:33am PT
Except for the fringe elements, no one in Islamabad is supporting jihadi policies any more.
(insert cheap bridge for sale cliche here)
Let me ask you this about you new found paki friends who live in the US and canuckistan...Do you think they`ve stopped openly proclaiming support for islamic jihad because
1. They`ve had a change in heart and don`t support jihad....
2. They keep seeing trailer park Lynndie at the immigration counter....
Except for the fringe elements, no one in Islamabad is supporting jihadi policies any more.
(insert cheap bridge for sale cliche here)
Let me ask you this about you new found paki friends who live in the US and canuckistan...Do you think they`ve stopped openly proclaiming support for islamic jihad because
1. They`ve had a change in heart and don`t support jihad....
2. They keep seeing trailer park Lynndie at the immigration counter....
#66 Posted by amit on March 20, 2005 12:33:45 am
Re:MaheshG2#64
Look, there has been a significant policy shift in Pakistan over the past several years. Maybe it has been under US pressure, but still it has happened. Except for the fringe elements, no one in Islamabad is supporting jihadi policies any more. In fact, Musharraf has himself become the target of the jihadies. With the changes in Afghanistan and the peace moves in Kashmir, there is a new ground reality, which is good relations between India and Pakistan. There are still jihadi elements left in Pakistan but they are non-state actors. So if there has been change, we should recognize it rather than continue living in the past.
Look, there has been a significant policy shift in Pakistan over the past several years. Maybe it has been under US pressure, but still it has happened. Except for the fringe elements, no one in Islamabad is supporting jihadi policies any more. In fact, Musharraf has himself become the target of the jihadies. With the changes in Afghanistan and the peace moves in Kashmir, there is a new ground reality, which is good relations between India and Pakistan. There are still jihadi elements left in Pakistan but they are non-state actors. So if there has been change, we should recognize it rather than continue living in the past.
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