Promoting Research in Pakistan: A Few Ideas

#80 by amit on March 21, 2005 9:34am PT


I am as against jihadis as you are.


The pakis aren`t against the jihadis...If they told you they are and you believed them, you`re really naive..


They will get more public support and more money for their agenda.


Ummm...they`ll get more support then they currently have...?


We cannot have an out and out war,


right....We`re not the ones trying to change the status quo...The pakis are...They`re the ones who initiated kargil and the insurgency...not India..


From a long-term perspective, we need to settle matters with Pakistan, if we want to reach our potential on the global stage. India is taking a bottom-up approach this time, where ordinary people to people contacts are resulting in pressure on the governments to work with each other.


Settle matters HOW?!!? The pakis want Indian Kashmir...are you prepared to give it to them? I`ve got news for you..the majority of your billion+ countrymen aren`t prepared to do that...


The natural kinship of the people is coming out and replacing the paranoia.


Wait till the natural pakiship of the pakis comes out and they demand India hand over Kashmir to them in the interests of a ``peaceful south asia``...


Bottom line is if France and Germany can be friends, why not India and Pakistan?


They only became friends after the nazis were defeated and Germany was disarmed...


The reconciliation among Punjabis is the best outcome of the process as it means that the key decision making community in Pakistan is now pro-peace.


Normal leopard can`t change their spots...maybe pakistan punjabi leopards can...but i wouldn`t bet on it...

Re:mohar and arjun_m

I am as against jihadis as you are. I have family members in the Indian army, so I have no love lost for those scumbags.

The question is what is your solution to the problem? If we just continue the tensions with Pakistan, it will actually strengthen the jihadies. They will get more public support and more money for their agenda. We cannot have an out and out war, given the nuclear capabilities. So what do you suggest?

I think India is adopting a calibrated, smart strategy. From a long-term perspective, we need to settle matters with Pakistan, if we want to reach our potential on the global stage. India is taking a bottom-up approach this time, where ordinary people to people contacts are resulting in pressure on the governments to work with each other. Given that both sides have well defined borders and nukes, people are secure enough to interact with each other with warmth without fearing that the other side will take advantage of them. The natural kinship of the people is coming out and replacing the paranoia. The reconciliation among Punjabis is the best outcome of the process as it means that the key decision making community in Pakistan is now pro-peace. Bottom line is if France and Germany can be friends, why not India and Pakistan?

re:#74 by Netizen
(Remember how Mushy tundered in Agra that the ``moral`` support to the kashmiri ``freedom fighters`` would continue. What made him so accomodative? Something really must have happened to make him a dove of peace.)
Uncle Sam`s whammy up Mushy boy`s rear end? What else?
Sridhar

#71 by amit on March 20, 2005 4:13pm PT


Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy.


the afghan people were innocent victims...The pakis, OTOH, were willing participants...Thye jumped into the afghan conflict willingly and for their own reasons....


The question is whether jihad is hard-wired into the Pakistani system and will reemerge?


Yes and Yes...It`s part of the paki mythology..pakis being the martial race and the hindus being banias..and the paki wet dream of kicking India out of Indian Kashmir...


Right now jihad has ended


If you think it`s ended because of the goodness in paki hearts(and not trailer park lynndie), i`ve got a bridge to sell...


This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad.


I think a ``Indian-bullet`` to ``Paki-jihadi`` people contact has a better chance of stopping jihad...

you DO live in cloud cuckoo land, don`t you?

#71 by amit

[This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad.]

You are forgetting the fact that for Pakistan, the priority item has always been Jihad against India (well-meaning folks like Charlie notwithstanding) over all other benefits of peace. Pakistan is like the vulture that keeps returning to the caracass even when driven away again and again.

Pakistan today talks about cooperation because it is looking down the American barrel and also because it is seeking an image makeover. Once the crisis passes, it will be back to business as usual at the Jihad Headquarters, Inc.

#71 by amit

[Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad.]

This proposition sounds frighteningly similar to the Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai stuff that was peddled in the 50s and 60s by Nehru. We all know what it led to.

There is a saying that goes something like this, ``Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me``. India has been fooled once, and now you are inviting India`s enemies to fool us once again.

Amit-bhai,
You are displaying abject ignorance of Pakiland.
Pakiland`s jihadi policies started on Aug 14.1947.
In the 50`s Pakiland started a process of removing all Indian authored books from
its libraries. It sent in infiltrators into Kashmir in 1948 - try to find out what they
were called. Also, find out when the word `mujahideen` was used first in Pakistan.

Re: # 71 amit

``Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy.``

But now they have realised its potential in Kashmir. In Punjab too they were shooting off the shoulders of Khalistanis. Remember how Mushy tundered in Agra that the ``moral`` support to the kashmiri ``freedom fighters`` would continue. What made him so accomodative? Something really must have happened to make him a dove of peace.

``Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad. This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad. ``

Hopefully so. I do agree that we should increase people to people contact and economic cooperation. We have equally important issues to attend at home. But thats what india has been in favor of for a long time. But Pak sees all these issues throught the prism of Kashmir. Hopefully they will also realise that there are many things beyond kashmir.

What pak thinks is that it has done its part by stopping the jihadi tap, now india should do its part by delivering kashmir valley to pak or setting it free. Thats what i have realised talking with pakis here. They want india to be ``reasonable`` and ``accomodative`` to their demands which they could not achieve through a decade old jihad. They also want peace and prosperity but on their terms. Thats why the peace initiative trips by Vajp. needn`t blossom so fast.

``However, if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time. ``

India needs to promote cooperation and trade but need to keep its gun powder dry.

Re: # 70 Netizen
//...Once the pressure is off, jihadis would start trickling in....//

This simple logic donot reach people with heads in cloud-nine.

Re: # 71
//...if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time...//

Yeah sure. Just like - our response is ``ferocious`` against the on-going jihad [no, this jihad has not ended].

Pakis have executed jihad pretty much with no response - virtually un-deterred. Now you come along and say next time it happens, we are going to respond ``ferociously``. Man - you are pathetic.

Re:Netizen#70 and others

Pakistan`s jihadi policies were shaped by the events in Afghanistan. Prior to the eighties, there was no jihadi policy. The question is whether jihad is hard-wired into the Pakistani system and will reemerge? We dont know the answer to that. Right now jihad has ended and we should build on the Indo-Pak peace process to such an extent that they will hesistate to go back to jihad. This can happen not only via people to people contacts but also by setting up economic links, so that there is a vested interest in not doing jihad. So we have a window of opportunity to get rid of the problem forever. However, if jihad does come back, our response to it should be equally ferocious at that time.

#66 by amit

``Look, there has been a significant policy shift in Pakistan over the past several years. Maybe it has been under US pressure, but still it has happened. ``

thats the scary part. Once the pressure is off, jihadis would start trickling in. If that change of heart would have happened in Pak due to self-introspection and general good will, it would been really different.

#66
``There are still jihadi elements left in Pakistan but they are non-state actors.``

How does the Kool-aid taste?

Re: # 65 charlie
//....I believe that if in world, Pakistanis can make good friendship based on total understanding, it is only Indians...//

At personal level pakis get along with Indians. That`s true now, and that was true before. That was true even at height of jihadic frenzy [ in fact Indians are only people who give pakis any respect - everybody else gives them full cavity search ]

So why did jihad [against India] start in the first place? How come it continued for so long. And how would the ``good friendsip`` stop jihad now? This is not first time Indians are showing ``warm feelings`` for pakis - they also did the same for Zia in 1987. And jihad started shortly after that.

Jihad is down only because of 9/11. Only because of daisy-cutters and deportations. If 9/11 would not have happened - jihad would still be going on in full force against india. people like amit don`t realize that. And if situation changes for better - jihad will start again. Jihad infrastructure in intact - Indian Defence Minister has said as much.

So those who will like to live in a fools` paradise are welcome to do so.

#66 by amit on March 20, 2005 0:33am PT


Except for the fringe elements, no one in Islamabad is supporting jihadi policies any more.


(insert cheap bridge for sale cliche here)

Let me ask you this about you new found paki friends who live in the US and canuckistan...Do you think they`ve stopped openly proclaiming support for islamic jihad because
1. They`ve had a change in heart and don`t support jihad....
2. They keep seeing trailer park Lynndie at the immigration counter....

Re:MaheshG2#64

Look, there has been a significant policy shift in Pakistan over the past several years. Maybe it has been under US pressure, but still it has happened. Except for the fringe elements, no one in Islamabad is supporting jihadi policies any more. In fact, Musharraf has himself become the target of the jihadies. With the changes in Afghanistan and the peace moves in Kashmir, there is a new ground reality, which is good relations between India and Pakistan. There are still jihadi elements left in Pakistan but they are non-state actors. So if there has been change, we should recognize it rather than continue living in the past.

Re: # 60

Thanks Amit! I really agree with you. I have made a lot of indian friends in my ``offline`` life and I think that I find myself very easy while being with them. Saturday night, I was with them at a pub and we had an excellent time together. While I was talking about bollywood, cricket, ashwariya and indian hospitality at Mohali, those guys were talking about Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Adnan Sami etc.
I believe that if in world, Pakistanis can make good friendship based on total understanding, it is only Indians.


About research: I thought that some of us will raise this point that Although standard research in ``India`` can be objected, its standard when coming to ``Indians`` can`t be ignored. Quite an impressive amount of research being done in ``US`` hence being credited to US is being done by Indian researchers working in US universities. It itself is something enough to be proud of.

Amit,

What`s wrong in talking about Jihad? Is that not reality? Is it some bugaboo that Indians have made up?

Bongdongs,

Why are you so upset ?
Charlie claimed that there was no research in India - and evidence was pointed
out that he was wrong.

Can India do better ? - sure.
The research citations will start going up once Indian journals
start getting more distribution worldwide. For eg: In Statistics, the journal Sankhya
is widely respected in statistical circles (http://sankhya.isical.ac.in/index.html)

#57

Quit the arrogance man, ``quality`` research in India exists in isolated islands of excellence adrift in a sea of ``chalta hai``.

Re: # 60 amit
//....Most Indians have very warm, friendly feelings for Pakistan, as shown by the reception given to Pakistanis in Mohali for the first cricket test match...//

That`s very good. Even more reason for pakis to stop jihad against India - right?
So Never mind the ``small minority sitting in US``. If the ``show of warm feelings for Pakistan`` will make pakis give up jihad - then who is complaining? Whatever it takes. All we want is Wipro building is not blown up by jihadis. Let Indians live without feat of jihad.

+++

Either way - you may feel very lovey-dovey towards pakis - but a lot of people don`t feel that way and they are NOT in minority and all of them are NOT sitting in US. And they have a right to constantly talk/complain about jihad - there is nothing ``hate-filled`` about talking about jihad, because these people are victims of jihad. It`s like saying jews are ``hate-filled`` because always talk about holocaust.

Get it, big guy? Just like you have a right to be lovey-dovy - rest of folks [those rooted to reality] have a right cry jihad at the drop of a hat :). There is nothing wrong about that.

Re:charlie#58

Please ignore the fanatic hate-filled postings of some Indians who want to bring up jihad and beat up on Pakistan all the time. They are a small minority sitting in the USA. Most Indians have very warm, friendly feelings for Pakistan, as shown by the reception given to Pakistanis in Mohali for the first cricket test match. Doctors even performed surgeries without charging the visitors.

At the same time, I dont think any Indian is interested in Greater India or Akhand Bharat. All that stuff is old hat. We want to live with Pakistanis as good friends and neighbors.

Re: # 58
//... I was talkig about ``Greater India``, against the two nation theory...//

What ``Greater India``? Actually, Indians like Two nation theory - it has served us well. Never mind RSS freaks and their ``Akhand Bharat `` cr@p. Partition was good - thousands died for the cause of separation between islamic freaks and rest of humanity. Nobody wants their death to go in vein. So there is no greater India - no undoing of the partition achieved at so much cost.

So thanks for trying to make indians happy - all you have to is stop jihad and stay on your side of the border.

Re: # 57 when Indias excellent research is shown, you want to now move the goal post and talk about citations eh ?


Abay! Ab kon samjhay tujhay keh number of citations indicate if standard of research is good or no.

#57 Stop using ``we`` when referring to India :)

I was referring to sub-continent. You should be happy I was talkig about ``Greater India``, against the two nation theory. Aik to tum logon ko khush kerna bara mushkil hay.


Jang and Harish!
I agree with you when you say, it is unfair to comparze developed countries with India and China. and Secondly that , if not in research, when it comes to development India is becoming the hub.

Charlie ,

Stop using ``we`` when referring to India :)

You first claimed that India had no research - when Indias excellent research
is shown, you want to now move the goal post and talk about citations eh ?

Re: # 49

``Drug research costs a lot of money and it takes any big pharma company upwards of 200 million dollars to introduce a new drug into the market. ``

It is in the range of 800 million to 1 billion. And it will keep rising.

``India is now being seen as a place where this cost can be cut down. India has cheap chemists, PhDs etc who can do the leg work for these companies.``

To be a innovator company inviolves a lot of money and expertise in various fields of science, commerce. A new molecule takes around 10 years to develop and market ( if it is a success) and then it has to recover the costs of the thousands that died in the development phase. Hence its quite a risky business too. India can compete in the generic market. Dr. Reddys, Ranbaxy, Cipla are doing that. But to be a innovator company won`t be that easy. Indian pharmaceutical industry is atleast 50 years behind the u.s. in terms of innovation and creativity. India does offer a godd market for Clinical trials. These trials cost a company around 200-300 million. By carring out 1/2 phase trails in india would save them a lot. I think it has already started. Inexpensive patients, large genetic pool, less chances of getting sued may be the reasons.

Rambus opens design center in Bangalore, India

BANGALORE, India — Memory interface licensing company Rambus Inc. opened a design center here Thurdsday (Mar. 17), aimed at expanding its design operations and better serving its customers in Asia, who account for half the company`s sales.

With 10 engineers now, the center is to be scaled up to 50 by the year-end, the company said. This center would start with a focus on developing cells and cores based on the company`s technologies in the areas of PCI Express and DDR2 memory controller designs before taking on work in Fiber Channel and Serial accoridng to Samir Patel, vice president of the memory interface division at Rambus (Los Altos, Calif.). The Bangalore center is the third design center for the company.

``We always wanted a design center in Asia,`` said Rambus chairman Geoff Tate. Other sites considered were in Taiwan, Japan and China but the talent pool in Bangalore and its English-speaking skills helped decide the matter, Tate said. Another Indian city, Pune, was also in the race but lost out on the availability engineers, he added. ``We may have other design centers in Asia at some point in time,`` Tate said.

Rambus, which in the past had outsourced circuit layout tasks to firms in India, would continue to do so, the company said. It is also looking at partnerships with premier engineering institutes here for joint research later on.

charlie
you are right that papers in IEEE or ACM transactions from india are far and few. but you can bet your rupee that as much as 20% of world EE industial R&D will move to india .. you know the kind like speech coder implementation on ti chips, MPEG implementations, tools, chip design, verification, comm protocol and routing stacks .. that type of stuff. i see a complete downhill .. (ittiam pays 33k rs month for top fresh graduates..shocking)

#52 by Charlie

[You can see that while India and China are among the top 20 nations in the world for numbers of papers are published. Their quality of papers is very bad as compared to other countries in the list.]

Don’t you think it is rather unfair to compare the quality of scientific research in India/China and other developed countries? India, just 60 years ago shrugged off nearly 200 years of colonial rule, and a socialist ideology even later. And except for the IITs and a few other institutions, there are not too many great universities. The level of funding in some of the institutions is pathetic.

Despite that, some institutions have done exceedingly well. And as the government continues to pump more funds into education, research is bound to get better.

Some of the success stories have been encouraging and have motivated students to pursue research. While the process has already begun, it might be a while before we can see the actual results.

# 48 satyamvada, it is good to be optimistic and it is also very good to promote country`s image in front of other world to attract more attention. I am happy, India is doing well and is on the road of progress. I am sure after 20 years, they may be at a much better place where they are know.

But when it comes to looking at the ground realities, comparing with other technological powers, we should be realistic.

OK! Here are a few links from research output managed by ISI thomson. I know, this is not encouraging enough but I hope we will be performing better if we continue improving ourselves this way.

http://www.in-cites.com/countries/world-map.html


The link below mentions is 2004 research output and quality of research. You can see that while India and China are among the top 20 nations in the world for numbers of papers are published. Their quality of papers is very bad as compared to other countries in the list. As a matter of fact, worst quality of paper is coming from China, then from Russia and its stands are third worse in those 20 countries.

US, Japan, Germany, England and France are rated among top five in both number of citations and numb er of published papers with good avg of citation/paper. As a matter of fact, US alone is equal to these 4 countries. and it is not that odd if we keep in mind the population of these countries in minds.


http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2004allfields.html

Sultans of String
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=65362&headline=He~bid~goodbye~to~US,~to~unlock~the~secrets~of~the~universe

Charlie,

Not just the ordinary villager, not just the top commercial research centers and
medical technology - but the very frontiers of Science:
Even Western Scientists go to TIFR to do fundamental research work

Sultans of String
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=65362&headline=He~bid~goodbye~to~US

re: Medical research in India
India, i think, is becoming a place for drug research by pharmaceutical companies. Drug research costs a lot of money and it takes any big pharma company upwards of 200 million dollars to introduce a new drug into the market. India is now being seen as a place where this cost can be cut down. India has cheap chemists, PhDs etc who can do the leg work for these companies.
But cutting edge research in Medicine is non-existent in India. Indian hospitals and research centers are not into collaborative multicentric trials. I attended a conference in my speciality sometime ago in Washington D.C and there was this guy from Bangalore, India who presented some case studies. The idea was novel and he had some good things to say but then his data lacked the weightage and did not get the deserved attention because it was case study. The idea of doing RCTs has not somehow caught on in India. This is what the rest of the world does. I see a lot of papers from China, few from India.
So, India has a long way to go before it can catch up with developed countries of the world in terms of medical research. I must confess i know next to nothing about research in IT and allied areas. It seems India is forging ahead in these areas.
Sridhar

Charlie...

Let me also add, it is not just the top level research that is happening in India,
the good thing is that the ordinary villager is trying to improve little things that
makes life better....
check out www.goodnewsindia.com
These million little changes happening in India are what will make it a great society again.

And you know what ? Learn more about Indias hoary scientific traditions here
www.indianscience.org

Charlie,

Here`s just a sample....

India special: The silicon subcontinent
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/info-tech/mg18524871.100

India special: The next knowledge superpower
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/mg18524876.800

India`s R&D: Reaching for the Top
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/307/5714/1415

http://cities.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=117878

Agere adds India design center
http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=Q3S5U4VJ3RUPQQSNDBCSKHSCJUMEKJVN

AIIMS pioneers stem cell injection
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1031528.cms

tits on a bull ...........

research without development is like tits on a bull - it is something only the us government can afford to do with tax-payers money ................ everyone else, including companies like gm, ge, pfizer, j&j, p&g mandate that 75-80% of their research money is charged to specific product development efforts - they don`t pay people to write the same paper four times over to present at ten different conferences all over the world !........... those days of phd`s in white coats sitting around at bell labs and gmr developing routing algorithms and wiper blades are long gone ........... now you have to earn your next research dollar ...........

............ the john welch technology centre in bangalore with its 2500 scientists and engineers already has more than 200 patents in 4 years - a 100m dollars well spent .......... pakistan couldn`t muster 250 scientists of that caliber unless they emptied krl and pinstech and even if we did, what would they work on ?........

........... we pakistanis need to get a grip on reality - first we were talking about jumping into the post-industrial age by getting into it and bpo, and now we are talking about doing research ............. research on what ?....... the mating habits of the cotton bo-weevil !............ that has already been done at texas a&m funded with millions of dollars by the usda ! ..............harnessing jinns to produce electricity ? ........ it would be better to fix wapda instead with some old fashioned engineering and proper management ................ we need to walk before we can run ..........

#42

If you meet a TI guy ask them what they do in Bangalore, you may be quite surprised :-)

#42

There is little research, but there is quite a bit of interesting development work ongoing in embedded systems:

http://www.sasken.com/products/overview.html
http://www.ittiam.com/pages/products/products.htm

Re: # 42

charlie mian,

.......... all this idle talk about research in pakistan is amusing and rather silly when we still have to master the basic 3 r`s - reading, riting and rithmetic !......... and let`s not fool ourselves by comparing ourselves to india - they are in a different league altogether .......... take a look :

http://www.jfwtc.ge.com/

Re: # 39

JG! That`s exactly what I meant. People have a natural tendency to be more helpful for the ones who belong to their similar background. Certainly, Pakistani professor had a soft corner for a student coming from his background.

One another serious note, atleast in my area of research, I am unable to find a single place in India where ``good research`` is being done. In Pakistan, situation is even worse where even ``bad research`` is also not being done. On the other hand, I have just come to know a billion dollar european plan of competing with US ans specially `dangerouisly improving` chinese technology in the field of embedded systems. China was the only country last year who improved its infrastructure significantly in silicon fabrication. While eaést asian countries have already got a front seat in embedded system business,South Korea in more anxiously implementing is 2010 project to become the leading technology provider in the field. Lookig a these intiatives by these countries, it seems very bad if people coming from sub-continent fight for a little they have achieved or for arguing about their achievemnts. It is not the race between Pakistan and India. Frankly speaking, we are among the last ones in the race (Pakistan lagging even more). And then we fight....

Oye Veh!
Bhagwan ki Panah,
Your guys are bickering at such inconsequential points.
Instead of engaging in constructive discussion, some of you jab at each other with impunity.

Charlie,
I believe that the solution is very simple. Just put in a few quality graduate programs focusing on basic science and engineering. No need to run after some fad of the day. I mean just Masters Level programs, which graduate students who actually understand the basics..like really understand. Fund the students completely with small stipend. Research will happen kinda automatically..and even if it dose not, the fundamental focus will pay..kind of talibanist approach.

Before masters can paint inspired paintings, they always toil practicing basic brushwork and anatomy.

Re. Lobbying at the universities:
Actually, when my brother in law applied for grad course at Georgia Tech, he was helped out not by an Indian but a Pakistani professor.

#28 by irfanhamid
//...When will you guys learn that not all of us Pakistanis are out for `Hindu` blood? ...//

When you pakis stop sponsoring jihad against the hinuds. That`s when.

Re: # 36

How did you discovered author`s intentions... Some divine guidance??? Or feeling of insecurity coming out of some sort of complex???

#28 by irfanhamid on March 16, 2005 6:41pm PT


You consummate paranoid twit, Cheema is actually paying Indians a compliment :)


Nope...he was just being..well.. a paki...the implicaiton was obvious...If Indian students do well, it`s because the profs are Indian....

bbabu #20 got it right. an IIT-alumnus prof will look for and hire students from IIT because he knows they are the amongst the best in the world. similarly, he will be willing to hire students from METU, Turkey. The point here is that most of the research work and publication are done by the graduate students and a prof can indulge in indiscriminate nepotism only at his peril. a prof worth his tenure will not hire an indian student from osmania univ over a chinese student from mit.
having said that, it is also true that indiscriminate nepotism does take place in lower-ranked univs.

bbabu #20 got it right. an IIT-alumnus prof will look for and hire students from IIT because he knows they are the amongst the best in the world. similarly, he will be willing to hire students from METU, Turkey. The point here is that most of the research work and publication are done by the graduate students and a prof can indulge in indiscriminate nepotism only at his peril. a prof worth his tenure will not hire an indian student from osmania univ over a chinese student from mit.
having said that, it is also true that indiscriminate nepotism does take place in lower-ranked univs.

[#31 by ballukhan ]

I agree about lessening government machinery of the type you describe. But universities in India are mostly funded by government. You cannot do away with government completely. May be India needs ITS (Indian Technolgical Services).

Examples you cite of technological innovations which died young in India are perhaps wrong ones. Solar cells and solar cookers are innovations conceptualized by west. Even in west also they are not considered viable. Better examples are gobar gas plants. Even gobar gas plants cannot become popular by a imposed from above government program unless people ``buy`` the concept of it.

OTOH if there is a quantum jump in solar energy technology which cannot be understood and manufactured in small towns then that technology will need help of government to spread. But it better be real big quntum jump. But such imposing from above will be merely like selling a government supported (if not susidized) useful product to people who buy it like they buy battery cells. It will still not give scientific spirit to people as side effect.

A people driven program cannot originate in a bureaucrat`s office or technocrat`s lab unless these people have not lost their contact with people. Tragic thing about third world countries is total disconnect between education which has become totally english medium education and people. The education `haves` almost always are brain washed by west`s way of thinking and what is important and what is not.

Creative (and not verbatim) translation of great classics of science is likely do contribute more to vitalize peoples` interest in science than unthinking spread of english based education. A scientist schooled in his own language, who can attempt to explain to his mother the concepts he learns in school, is more likely to also plant the germ of science in his people. He may be thwarted in his work because all his original ideas might be reinventions of wheel, but he will be always be responsive to people and their sensibility. Original thinking which is also new is mirage we should stop running after.

Oops ...

#30 by myself
[Neither to produce a measurable result and motivated by commercial gains only nor because any tengible result is seen in near future. ]

What I wanted to say was: ...nor because no tengible result

Re: # 30
``Research in technology should be driven by practical needs of people and commercial interests. A third world country should not aspire to invent next rocket but next bullock cart wheel.

Inventing a water purifier which can be produced in villages is going to have bigger impact on our society as compared to inventing similar thing and then mass manufacturing it in a factory and providing it to all villages. That is because first is direct ``first order`` impact on quality of health, and second is ``invisible`` cultural impact on teaching scientific way of thinking to people. ``

Better not look at the government for that!! I remember that IIT Kanpur made improvements in the bullock cart design way back in 1960-s (this was reported in the Science Today Mag)...and BHEL made solar cookers in the 70-s ...BEL made solar cells in 1970-s.........and these projects died their natural deaths due to these IAS bureaucrats....
what we need is to ease the government out of these technologies which it has REGULATED and MONOPOLIZED since ages and encourage private players to sell such technologies to the rural markets...I would like to see the private players capturing the rural markets with these technologies.....remember....even the Gobar Gas Plant technology needs a technological update which cannot be supported by the government bureaucracy!!

Research is lagging behind in developing countries because it is being done either as token effort or because there is too much goal oriented research (like in Nuclear Technology).

Research should be done because people feel in their heart its worth. Research should be done in the spirit of Hindu principle of Karma, where neither the good result should enthuse one to do a deed nor unpleasant consequence should deter from doing a deed. Neither to produce a measurable result and motivated by commercial gains only nor because any tengible result is seen in near future. Capitalism will take care of commercial interests in research in technology.

What is missing is culture of science. That is why a rupee spent on encouraging high school students to think and question will produce more rewards down the line when these kids grow up rather than imposing science from above. Some degree of disruption is bound to follow any increase in independent thinking, because it will make young people challenge traditional wisdom. That is why some effort should be done in adult education also. An adult is less likely to be swayed by glittering play objects western technology has produced. Rather a grownup person is more likely to see importance of science and technology in a more mature way. And that is important because it is going to involve all people rather than only young people. There should be democracy in all efforts of popularizing science and technology.

Research in technology should be driven by practical needs of people and commercial interests. A third world country should not aspire to invent next rocket but next bullock cart wheel.

Inventing a water purifier which can be produced in villages is going to have bigger impact on our society as compared to inventing similar thing and then mass manufacturing it in a factory and providing it to all villages. That is because first is direct ``first order`` impact on quality of health, and second is ``invisible`` cultural impact on teaching scientific way of thinking to people.

In order that we can do better judgment of what research is worth pursuing and what is better left to west, some kind of impact analysis which takes into account invisible gains any increase in scientific spirit brings as a ``side effect`` result.

Also doing only technology research and not having bureaucracy and infrastructure to disseminate inventions from labs to assembly lines will be counter productive. In fact establishing machinery for dissemination of information and technology do more for the cause of science and technology. Because this tend to be at grassroots locations.

Sorry for being harsh! But my point is that the governmental intervention in IT industry has limited salutory effect and a PROACTIVE bureaucracy has infact been always a stumbling block in the progress of ANY private venture.
Do you know that the IT revolution came about despite the lack of governmental support in the 1990-s and becasue of the fact that the Ministry of IT in India came very late and therefore the government was not able to put bureaucratic stumbling blocks on the IT Industry through their regulations!
So there is no point seeking governmental intervention anywhere. Infact trying to look up to the government to expand the IT industry is hardly the correct path to progress. The maximum that the government bureaucrats can do is to make a few legislations , Tax cuts and provide some infrastructural benefits to the IT Industry. The rest has to be done by the private players- that includes running IT educational institutes, providing a career path for the new recruits, getting overseas business, building competency etc....
And when we all know that people flock around their kind then why this emphasis upon bringing a conscious attempt to bring the Ummah thingy in the Lab politics???

Re: # 6 (arjun_m),

You consummate paranoid twit, Cheema is actually paying Indians a compliment :)

When will you guys learn that not all of us Pakistanis are out for `Hindu` blood? There is nothing wrong (at least in my mind) with Indian professors preferring Indian grad students. It doesn`t mean that they are any less talented, just that they went to an Indian advisor rather than some other one.

Start wearing boxers, maybe you`ll let off some of that excess steam before you choke and explode on your own psychoses :)

Irfan.

Brass hats & mortar-boards-II


By Ardeshir Cowasjee

There is yet more depressing news. The Swiss-based World Economic Forum (WEF) has recently issued its Global Competitiveness Report for 2004-2005 evaluating and ranking 104 countries. It has been compiled by Michael Porter of Harvard University, Klaus Schwab of the WEF, Xavier Sala-i-Martin of Columbia University and Augusto Lapez-Claros of the WEF.

The report is broken up into various sections. Under the heading `Technological readiness`, India is listed at 26 with Korea and Luxembourg above it and Panama and Malaysia beneath. Pakistan comes in at 84 sandwiched between Gambia and Nigeria on top and Ukraine and Mali below.

`Firm-level technology absorption` has India at 18, with Norway and New Zealand above and Austria and the Slovak Republic below. Pakistan is listed at 44, under the Czech Republic and Bahrain and over Namibia and Jordan.

`Prevalence of foreign technology licensing` lists India at 8, with New Zealand and Japan above and the United Arab Emirates and Germany below. At 67, Pakistan lies between Tanzania and Nigeria and Costa Rica and Venezuela.

Under `FDI and technology transfer` India lies at 20 below Kenya and the United Kingdom and above Luxembourg and South Africa. We are at 96, between Ecuador and Mali and Ukraine and Macedonia.

`Quality of scientific research readiness` has India at 17, below France and Norway, and above New Zealand and the Russian Federation. We lie at 94, below Bangladesh and Vietnam and above Peru and Ecuador.

Under `Company spending on research and development`, India is listed at 26, with South Africa and Ireland above and China and Indonesia below. We enter at 101, between Bolivia and Paraguay and Angola and Chad. The last listed under this heading is Ethiopia at 104.

India tops the list at No.1 under `Availability of scientists and engineers` with Finland at 2 and Israel at 3, while Pakistan lies in the second half at 61 with Slovenia and Bangladesh above and Ghana and Croatia below.

Depressing also was a report in the press last week from Khalid Hasan in Washington on the subject of the annual `index of economic freedom` exercise conducted by the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal. Pakistan is included among 10 of the 155 countries surveyed whose performance `worsened` during 2004. It is now bracketed with Ethiopia, Uganda, Haiti, Bangladesh, Morocco, Qatar, Cuba and Tunisia. Pakistan is listed at 133, and India at 118.

Charlie,

There is a phenomoenon of brand equity when it comes to Indians, especially IITians in USA. In my company here, we have around 5 people from IIT. We have proven ourselves so well, that senior management knows all about IITs and the kind of students graduating from there. In fact, now my boss looks at a resume and if he sees IIT, he automatically asks HR to bring that person in for an interview.

So it is equity that we have earned based on brains and hard work. It is wrong to think that Indians are favoring other Indians. In fact, I will tell you that it is the opposite. Most Indians are very, very competitive with each other and will often work against each other. In fact they benchmark and compare everything against other Indians, so there is even lesser tendency to play favorites. If one Indian guy becomes a VP, the other Indians cannot sleep for days. Most Indian profs are brutal with their Indian Ph.D. students, delaying their graduation and exploiting them to the max. Indian companies in US typically exploit other Indians to the fullest. So it is our individual strength that has led to our success here, not any kind of collective cooperation.

Re : Article
In most countries that have large research institutions there is a market for that research. It is mostly funded by Industry or Govt. grants. But there is an industrial base that can consume the goods.

Regards,

Faruk

Charlie #17
Most Indian universities have strong alumni networks. They are used extensively to look for research positions at US graduate schools. The Chinese and Koreans do the same. If a student knows that one of his co researchers is planning to defend his thesis they usually inform their alma mater.

I remember when I landed in the US for an undergrad program, there was a huge Indian Student Association banner welcoming Indian Students at the Airport. The Indian Students Association arranges for free accommodation and helps Indian students find assistantships.

You can call this nepotism or plain and simple networking as it’s called in the US. This is not a unique Indian phenomenon. I am sure the fact that both my parents attended the same school as me helped me when I applied .

Regards,

Faruk

Pakistan has nuclear technology, it has missiles, it has the shahedd battle tank, some aircraft and I am surprised what this man is complaining about lack of reasearch in pakistan. It is very surprising that pakistan has more or less the same technology like india, but has no research capability. Will some enlightened pakistani like YLH, or ferozk tell the truth.

Then of course there is complaint about foreign pakistanis not helping the local ones. This is factually untrue, so many of pakistanis abroad have come to pakistan to be trained by laskers, jaish mohammed etc. So the simplest suggestion from this great academic making policy prescriptions should be to coordinate his visionary collaborations with the laskers.

There are inherent strenghts in pakistani society, and it is centered around jihadis, and it is time that the educatde pakistanis learn to make use of these.

one more thing, if you think its a good idea to emulate indian ol-boy-network, why reject indian comments on this board?

charlie
i used to think that way about greeks during my grad school (greek professors and greek students). i understand you are an EE major, it just so happens that us EE depts are saturated with indian students so this may appear to you as a bonding thing. PIGS (poor indian grad student) however no doubt have a formidable info network in us grad schools, so they know where the funding is etc efficiently.

Charlie #17

`` Dear Indians! Thanks for commenting on my article so seriously and bringing zionist conspiracies, Ummah and Islam in an unrelated stuff. Why do Indian always like to bring it inside even if it has nothing to do with the subject being discussed ?

OK! Let me elaborate my stance. Their is nothing to take negatively. Being too much ``

I am sure the probability that Indian professor hires Indian student is higher than the probability that non-Indian professor hires a Indian student. It is not that simple.

A lot of departments have a quota on how many Indian students they can admit since Indian students need financial assistance w.r.t. out of state tution.

What you say about all-Indian research teams might happen more at lesser known universities ?

To the degree there are Indians and Chinese in science and engineering. It is the law of numbers. There are as many Indians as all Muslims put together. Ditto for Chinese.
Combine this with strong educational institutions in India and China. It is easy to see why Indians and Chinese overwhelm everyone else in USA.

BTW you would see a lot of Iranian and Arab professors who joined academia in the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s. If you look at the young Iranian and Arab professors the numbers dramatically fall off. I do no think they can handle the onslaught of Indians and Chinese.
Combine this with 9-11 and outsourcing. Your young Middle Eastern and Pakistani professional is caught in a firestorm in terms of future career opportunities.

Charlie #3

`` #1 Ballu, Try to browse through the profiles of foreign professors (mostly chinese and Indian) working in European and North American Universities, you will realize that they prefer their PhD students coming from their home countries. But when I talk of Pakistani doing something similar, it is making you feel uneasy. I don`t know, why?``

This is one of the dumbest argument I have heard. Certainly an Indian professor in US university who graduated from IIT is going to look at students who have graduated from IIT. But he has to get the best students if he wants to go up the career path of getting tenure, NSF grants etc. It is not like professors can do anything they want.

If a Pakistani student are as smart as his Indian counterpart he might not get admission into University of Michigan. Nothing might prevents him from getting admission into Michigan State. Once you graduate it is your skills and work ethic that gets you throigh industry.

India`s progress exploeded after the socialist and corrupt govt stopped interfering in private domain.

Dear Indians! Thanks for commenting on my article so seriously and bringing zionist conspiracies, Ummah and Islam in an unrelated stuff. Why do Indian always like to bring it inside even if it has nothing to do with the subject being discussed ?

OK! Let me elaborate my stance. Their is nothing to take negatively. Being too much

A few decades back, many Indians left India and went to US. They lived there, got educated and achieved good status in academia and industry. There is nothing bad to feel that an Indian prefers other Indian. People coming from third world are normally hardworkers so were indians and chinese. As a result, they became an important part of academia and industry in US. When they became senior enough, they helped their Indian juniors to find places in better positions. During 90s, when the first generation of expat Indians had become old enough, some of them wanted to go back. They brought back all the good things they had earned from US. It included influence, experience and wealth. So what is bad in having all that ?


Shishapa! Every article I read coming from a US PhD student as a first author, 70 % of the times it involves an Indian PhD advisor. Again, nothing bad in it. World goes like this. It seems a joke if I myself go through some conference and give you name of the prof having all indian students. You can consider that I chose anexceptional case. I invite you to google for a conference proceedings, choose one senior indian professor in its program committee and see his publications and co-author is those publications. See for the PhD students working for them. Right now, I have 3 papers on my table written by Indian professors outside india. Two of them have all indian research team. Third one is however written by a Chinese and american co-authors.

Netizen! If student is good enough, he should not work with a desi professor. If he is bad, ``doobtay ko tinkay ka sahara``. :)

The standard of education in the Undergraduate Institutions in Pakistan on the whole is inadequate because it fails to provide a comprehensive education into humanities such as the General Education Requirements in an American university.
Science and Research do not exist on their own in a University, rather they are connected to Humanities, Arts and Social Sciences.
Establishment of Universities that not only perform vital research in every field but also provide quality education is not a priority for the Government of Pakistan. The reason American universities are able to conduct superior research is because of the multi-million dollar educational grants available to them from the US Federal Government as well as subsidies from State Governments combined with the monies from Alumni donated funds.
America is filled with Pakistani professionals, but do these Professionals contribute money to their respective alma maters? Do graduates of KE, Sindh Medical College, UET, Punjab University etc raise money to raise the quality of education in their institutions by establishing labs, providing abundant scholarships, etc.
Afraid that their hard earned funds will go to the fatten the wallet of some Bureaucrat.
And nothing gets done!
Research this, O Pakistanis:
In a country, where rapists roam free whether it is the rape of Mukhtar Mai or the Rape of the Pakistani Treasury by the Army, How is progress of any sort a priority?
What good is any research, if Pakistan cannot give justice to the majority of its population. Its Women, The mothers of the Nation!

Since the author and Charlie have brought India into this....

Outsourcing Innovation
First came manufacturing. Now companies are farming out R&D to cut costs and get new products to market faster. Are they going too far?

While the electronics sector is furthest down this road, the search for offshore help with innovation is spreading to nearly every corner of the economy. On Feb. 8, Boeing Co. (BA ) said it is working with India`s HCL Technologies to co-develop software for everything from the navigation systems and landing gear to the cockpit controls for its upcoming 7E7 Dreamliner jet. Pharmaceutical giants such as GlaxoSmithKline (GSK ) and Eli Lilly (LLY )are teaming up with Asian biotech research companies in a bid to cut the average $500 million cost of bringing a new drug to market. And Procter & Gamble Co. (PG ) says it wants half of its new product ideas to be generated from outside by 2010, compared with 20% now.

The result is a rethinking of the structure of the modern corporation. What, specifically, has to be done in-house anymore? At a minimum, most leading Western companies are turning toward a new model of innovation, one that employs global networks of partners. These can include U.S. chipmakers, Taiwanese engineers, Indian software developers, and Chinese factories. IBM (IBM ) is even offering the smarts of its famed research labs and a new global team of 1,200 engineers to help customers develop future products using next-generation technologies. When the whole chain works in sync, there can be a dramatic leap in the speed and efficiency of product development.

Sweeping Overhaul
India is emerging as a heavyweight in design, too.The top players in making the country world-class in software development, including HCL and Wipro, are expected to help India boost its contract R&D revenues from $1 billion a year now to $8 billion in three years. One of Wipro`s many labs is in a modest office off dusty, congested Hosur Road in Bangalore. There, 1,000 young engineers partitioned into brightly lit pods jammed with circuit boards, chips, and steel housings hunch over 26 development projects. Among them is a hands-free telephone system that attaches to the visor of a European sports car. At another pod, designers tinker with a full dashboard embedded with a satellite navigation system. Inside other Wipro labs in Bangalore, engineers are designing prototypes for everything from high-definition TVs to satellite set-top boxes.

Re: # 3

To all the universities that i know of, your application is reviewed by the graduate admission committee. Once admitted you undergo 2/3 rotations in different lab and by 2nd semester choose the area of research to your liking. I would say it is a mutual agreement between the student and the advisor. There was a unwritten rule in my school ``never work for a desi advisor``. Infact he was boycotted for several years because of his attitude towards his students.

Freewill is necessary for all progress.

``Just like the Indians have done well and made strong lobbies in many good universities and multinationals``

Omer,

I work at one of those multinationals here in US. Believe me, there is no lobby of
Indians in my company. And frankly, I do not know what we would lobby for.
We are too busy working to get good rating at the end of the year and keeping our job.
And I have many friends who work in some of the multinationals here in my area and I never heard them talking about lobby of Indians in their company.

Since you made the statement, could you please give name a multinational
where Indians have a lobby and what that lobby does?

I agree with yahyajamil. The standard of undergraduate level education in paksitan is beyond pathetic. Even the most `brilliant`` students are just rote zombies who get their brilliance by solving the text book questions from guess papers for millions of times before getting into the exam. What could be more pathetic that students at this level even memorize the mathematical questions. Formulating a `numerical` question or resolving a simple differential equation that is not in their curriculum is death for them. 99% of them wouldn`t even be able to define the subject of calculus or the purpose of it. Pakistan deperately needs an overhaul of the teachers training and its methods- changing the curriculum will not help; changing the teacher`s outlook on a subject that he has mastered will.

Re: # 8
``Yes, Standard at undergraduate level in Pakistani Universities is excellent. I am confident in saying it because I have been the part of this process and I have seen a lot of Pakistani students coming abroad on various programs from various Pakistani universities and many of them performing exceptionally well in MSc and then in research. ``
Charlie,
I am afraid I do not agree with you about the quality of our undergraduate level. It is really pathetic. Yes, there are some institutions of excellence, but for the bulk of the students (95%) the quality of undergraduate program is so bad that only those who manage to qualify from the few private quality undergraduate institutions get to do something. If you ever get to read the reports of the Public Servise Commission about the standard of students who appear in civil services exams it is really shameful. Their extracts have been published from time to time in the national press.
We really need to first bring up our undergraduate standards before we can think of feeding the research setups at the Universities. We also need to do something about the examination system. It tests the memory rather than the knowledge of the students. I beleive there are some serious steps being taken to improve the examination system and also capacity building of government educational institutions.

#8 by Charlie on March 16, 2005 7:46am PT


#6 First, Indians try to poke their noses in an article which is not related to them


Umm....did you RTFA? or your own comments?

Just like the Indians have done well and made strong lobbies in many good universities and multinationals, what about Pakistanis starting now and going towards attracting other Pakistanis for a strong community building process.

#4 Yes, Standard at undergraduate level in Pakistani Universities is excellent. I am confident in saying it because I have been the part of this process and I have seen a lot of Pakistani students coming abroad on various programs from various Pakistani universities and many of them performing exceptionally well in MSc and then in research.
Biggest problem for Pakistani universities not being good in research is that most of the students prefer to go abroad for MSc and PhD.

#6 First, Indians try to poke their noses in an article which is not related to them and then feel disturbed when they are responded.

Arjun said: ``That`s right...If the Indian students are doing well, it`s only because they`re favored by the Indian professors...`` and blah blah

Well! I didn`t say this. It is you who said you and reproduced your old ``zionist theory`` as you have been doing always.

It is QUITE normal for the people of a community to be attracted by the people coming from similar community. My arab PhD advisor has three arab Phd candidates out of four. The other french professor has two students and both of them are french. Even female researchers normally prefer girls as their PhD students as they feel easy while interacting.

Imagine, what if you were a professor at MIT and an Indian student from IIT (certainly with good educational background) sends you his application. Other student ALMOST equally good is chinese. What will be your choice?

Arjun! you show your sick mentality very soon without knowing what is being said.

Omer Cheema’s article is a commendable effort in drawing attention to the most challenging issue a developing country faces. Others who are involved in research and have the insights into research matters should write similar articles to create awareness in the masses. In my opinion, research needs inspiration together with resources. I do not know how well equipped our universities are for conducting research at present. In my time (1950s), research was an alien word.

To provide inspiration for research, the teachers, not necessarily all of them, but a few, should be research oriented. The universities should attract teachers/research scholars who have published original papers in the international refereed journals. In order to attract them to Pakistani universities, incentives will need to be created for them. A research scholar wouldn’t sit idle and waste his life if facilities for research are not available. These research professors will need to be compensated much better than the routine-of-the-mill teachers. There should be a cash award for each paper that they publish (have previously published) in an international refereed journal. A certain amount should be added to their normal salaries for each paper.

A fundamental requirement for doing research is a well stocked library which must acquire reputed international journals and research reports on a regular basis. Research laboratories should be directed by research professors and they should prepare the annual budgets for their facilities.

If a university succeeded in attracting research scholars to lead the research program but failed to provide them the facilities, in due time, they would quit. There are no short cuts to research.

This is the minimum requisite to initiate a research program. Once a tradition is established, it should be systematically and continuously nurtured and enhanced. What is needed at present is to seed a research culture. Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

#3 by Charlie on March 16, 2005 1:08am PT


#1 Ballu, Try to browse through the profiles of foreign professors (mostly chinese and Indian) working in European and North American Universities, you will realize that they prefer their PhD students coming from their home countries.


That`s right...If the Indian students are doing well, it`s only because they`re favored by the Indian professors...

If Indians in the US have a much higher per capita income than Pakistanis in the US, it`s because of the zionists....

If Azim Premji is the seconds richest muslim in the world, it`s only because he has a hindu last name....

yawwwwn....

One step that government can instantly take is to abolish the white elephants like PCSIR (Pak Council for Industrial & Scietific Reasearc); the existing facilities should be affiliated with Universities and money to support sitting bureaucrats in PCSIR should be diverted to respective departments to carry out the work thru students and faculty. Bureaucrats cannot do research only students and entreprenuers can.

Does Pakistan have any good quality undergraduate institutions to sustain higher-level research?

#1 Ballu, Try to browse through the profiles of foreign professors (mostly chinese and Indian) working in European and North American Universities, you will realize that they prefer their PhD students coming from their home countries. But when I talk of Pakistani doing something similar, it is making you feel uneasy. I don`t know, why?

``..... In my opinion, establishing a Pakistani community in a university should be a part of political game.........``

Oh Yes...it is the frking Ummah politics that these guys want in the research labs abroad.........

ForGoddsake keep the frking government out of S&T..............especially ominiscient guys like Romairs of Pakistan...................