Promoting Research in Pakistan: A Few Ideas
Omer Cheema March 15, 2005
#49 Posted by rsridhar on March 17, 2005 8:50:31 pm
re: Medical research in India
India, i think, is becoming a place for drug research by pharmaceutical companies. Drug research costs a lot of money and it takes any big pharma company upwards of 200 million dollars to introduce a new drug into the market. India is now being seen as a place where this cost can be cut down. India has cheap chemists, PhDs etc who can do the leg work for these companies.
But cutting edge research in Medicine is non-existent in India. Indian hospitals and research centers are not into collaborative multicentric trials. I attended a conference in my speciality sometime ago in Washington D.C and there was this guy from Bangalore, India who presented some case studies. The idea was novel and he had some good things to say but then his data lacked the weightage and did not get the deserved attention because it was case study. The idea of doing RCTs has not somehow caught on in India. This is what the rest of the world does. I see a lot of papers from China, few from India.
So, India has a long way to go before it can catch up with developed countries of the world in terms of medical research. I must confess i know next to nothing about research in IT and allied areas. It seems India is forging ahead in these areas.
Sridhar
India, i think, is becoming a place for drug research by pharmaceutical companies. Drug research costs a lot of money and it takes any big pharma company upwards of 200 million dollars to introduce a new drug into the market. India is now being seen as a place where this cost can be cut down. India has cheap chemists, PhDs etc who can do the leg work for these companies.
But cutting edge research in Medicine is non-existent in India. Indian hospitals and research centers are not into collaborative multicentric trials. I attended a conference in my speciality sometime ago in Washington D.C and there was this guy from Bangalore, India who presented some case studies. The idea was novel and he had some good things to say but then his data lacked the weightage and did not get the deserved attention because it was case study. The idea of doing RCTs has not somehow caught on in India. This is what the rest of the world does. I see a lot of papers from China, few from India.
So, India has a long way to go before it can catch up with developed countries of the world in terms of medical research. I must confess i know next to nothing about research in IT and allied areas. It seems India is forging ahead in these areas.
Sridhar
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#50 Posted by satyamvada on March 17, 2005 8:56:45 pm
Charlie,
Not just the ordinary villager, not just the top commercial research centers and
medical technology - but the very frontiers of Science:
Even Western Scientists go to TIFR to do fundamental research work
Sultans of String
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=65362&headline=He~bid~goodbye~to~US
#51 Posted by satyamvada on March 17, 2005 8:57:56 pm
Sultans of String
http://www.indianexpress.com/full_story.php?content_id=65362&headline=He~bid~goodbye~to~US,~to~unlock~the~secrets~of~the~universe
#52 Posted by Charlie on March 18, 2005 3:22:54 am
# 48 satyamvada, it is good to be optimistic and it is also very good to promote country`s image in front of other world to attract more attention. I am happy, India is doing well and is on the road of progress. I am sure after 20 years, they may be at a much better place where they are know.
But when it comes to looking at the ground realities, comparing with other technological powers, we should be realistic.
OK! Here are a few links from research output managed by ISI thomson. I know, this is not encouraging enough but I hope we will be performing better if we continue improving ourselves this way.
http://www.in-cites.com/countries/world-map.html
The link below mentions is 2004 research output and quality of research. You can see that while India and China are among the top 20 nations in the world for numbers of papers are published. Their quality of papers is very bad as compared to other countries in the list. As a matter of fact, worst quality of paper is coming from China, then from Russia and its stands are third worse in those 20 countries.
US, Japan, Germany, England and France are rated among top five in both number of citations and numb er of published papers with good avg of citation/paper. As a matter of fact, US alone is equal to these 4 countries. and it is not that odd if we keep in mind the population of these countries in minds.
http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2004allfields.html
But when it comes to looking at the ground realities, comparing with other technological powers, we should be realistic.
OK! Here are a few links from research output managed by ISI thomson. I know, this is not encouraging enough but I hope we will be performing better if we continue improving ourselves this way.
http://www.in-cites.com/countries/world-map.html
The link below mentions is 2004 research output and quality of research. You can see that while India and China are among the top 20 nations in the world for numbers of papers are published. Their quality of papers is very bad as compared to other countries in the list. As a matter of fact, worst quality of paper is coming from China, then from Russia and its stands are third worse in those 20 countries.
US, Japan, Germany, England and France are rated among top five in both number of citations and numb er of published papers with good avg of citation/paper. As a matter of fact, US alone is equal to these 4 countries. and it is not that odd if we keep in mind the population of these countries in minds.
http://www.in-cites.com/countries/2004allfields.html
#53 Posted by harish_hyd on March 18, 2005 5:15:42 am
#52 by Charlie
[You can see that while India and China are among the top 20 nations in the world for numbers of papers are published. Their quality of papers is very bad as compared to other countries in the list.]
Don’t you think it is rather unfair to compare the quality of scientific research in India/China and other developed countries? India, just 60 years ago shrugged off nearly 200 years of colonial rule, and a socialist ideology even later. And except for the IITs and a few other institutions, there are not too many great universities. The level of funding in some of the institutions is pathetic.
Despite that, some institutions have done exceedingly well. And as the government continues to pump more funds into education, research is bound to get better.
Some of the success stories have been encouraging and have motivated students to pursue research. While the process has already begun, it might be a while before we can see the actual results.
[You can see that while India and China are among the top 20 nations in the world for numbers of papers are published. Their quality of papers is very bad as compared to other countries in the list.]
Don’t you think it is rather unfair to compare the quality of scientific research in India/China and other developed countries? India, just 60 years ago shrugged off nearly 200 years of colonial rule, and a socialist ideology even later. And except for the IITs and a few other institutions, there are not too many great universities. The level of funding in some of the institutions is pathetic.
Despite that, some institutions have done exceedingly well. And as the government continues to pump more funds into education, research is bound to get better.
Some of the success stories have been encouraging and have motivated students to pursue research. While the process has already begun, it might be a while before we can see the actual results.
#54 Posted by jang on March 18, 2005 7:34:45 am
charlie
you are right that papers in IEEE or ACM transactions from india are far and few. but you can bet your rupee that as much as 20% of world EE industial R&D will move to india .. you know the kind like speech coder implementation on ti chips, MPEG implementations, tools, chip design, verification, comm protocol and routing stacks .. that type of stuff. i see a complete downhill .. (ittiam pays 33k rs month for top fresh graduates..shocking)
you are right that papers in IEEE or ACM transactions from india are far and few. but you can bet your rupee that as much as 20% of world EE industial R&D will move to india .. you know the kind like speech coder implementation on ti chips, MPEG implementations, tools, chip design, verification, comm protocol and routing stacks .. that type of stuff. i see a complete downhill .. (ittiam pays 33k rs month for top fresh graduates..shocking)
#55 Posted by arjun_m on March 18, 2005 12:11:54 pm
Rambus opens design center in Bangalore, India
BANGALORE, India — Memory interface licensing company Rambus Inc. opened a design center here Thurdsday (Mar. 17), aimed at expanding its design operations and better serving its customers in Asia, who account for half the company`s sales.
With 10 engineers now, the center is to be scaled up to 50 by the year-end, the company said. This center would start with a focus on developing cells and cores based on the company`s technologies in the areas of PCI Express and DDR2 memory controller designs before taking on work in Fiber Channel and Serial accoridng to Samir Patel, vice president of the memory interface division at Rambus (Los Altos, Calif.). The Bangalore center is the third design center for the company.
``We always wanted a design center in Asia,`` said Rambus chairman Geoff Tate. Other sites considered were in Taiwan, Japan and China but the talent pool in Bangalore and its English-speaking skills helped decide the matter, Tate said. Another Indian city, Pune, was also in the race but lost out on the availability engineers, he added. ``We may have other design centers in Asia at some point in time,`` Tate said.
Rambus, which in the past had outsourced circuit layout tasks to firms in India, would continue to do so, the company said. It is also looking at partnerships with premier engineering institutes here for joint research later on.
BANGALORE, India — Memory interface licensing company Rambus Inc. opened a design center here Thurdsday (Mar. 17), aimed at expanding its design operations and better serving its customers in Asia, who account for half the company`s sales.
With 10 engineers now, the center is to be scaled up to 50 by the year-end, the company said. This center would start with a focus on developing cells and cores based on the company`s technologies in the areas of PCI Express and DDR2 memory controller designs before taking on work in Fiber Channel and Serial accoridng to Samir Patel, vice president of the memory interface division at Rambus (Los Altos, Calif.). The Bangalore center is the third design center for the company.
``We always wanted a design center in Asia,`` said Rambus chairman Geoff Tate. Other sites considered were in Taiwan, Japan and China but the talent pool in Bangalore and its English-speaking skills helped decide the matter, Tate said. Another Indian city, Pune, was also in the race but lost out on the availability engineers, he added. ``We may have other design centers in Asia at some point in time,`` Tate said.
Rambus, which in the past had outsourced circuit layout tasks to firms in India, would continue to do so, the company said. It is also looking at partnerships with premier engineering institutes here for joint research later on.
#56 Posted by Netizen on March 18, 2005 5:26:17 pm
Re: # 49
``Drug research costs a lot of money and it takes any big pharma company upwards of 200 million dollars to introduce a new drug into the market. ``
It is in the range of 800 million to 1 billion. And it will keep rising.
``India is now being seen as a place where this cost can be cut down. India has cheap chemists, PhDs etc who can do the leg work for these companies.``
To be a innovator company inviolves a lot of money and expertise in various fields of science, commerce. A new molecule takes around 10 years to develop and market ( if it is a success) and then it has to recover the costs of the thousands that died in the development phase. Hence its quite a risky business too. India can compete in the generic market. Dr. Reddys, Ranbaxy, Cipla are doing that. But to be a innovator company won`t be that easy. Indian pharmaceutical industry is atleast 50 years behind the u.s. in terms of innovation and creativity. India does offer a godd market for Clinical trials. These trials cost a company around 200-300 million. By carring out 1/2 phase trails in india would save them a lot. I think it has already started. Inexpensive patients, large genetic pool, less chances of getting sued may be the reasons.
``Drug research costs a lot of money and it takes any big pharma company upwards of 200 million dollars to introduce a new drug into the market. ``
It is in the range of 800 million to 1 billion. And it will keep rising.
``India is now being seen as a place where this cost can be cut down. India has cheap chemists, PhDs etc who can do the leg work for these companies.``
To be a innovator company inviolves a lot of money and expertise in various fields of science, commerce. A new molecule takes around 10 years to develop and market ( if it is a success) and then it has to recover the costs of the thousands that died in the development phase. Hence its quite a risky business too. India can compete in the generic market. Dr. Reddys, Ranbaxy, Cipla are doing that. But to be a innovator company won`t be that easy. Indian pharmaceutical industry is atleast 50 years behind the u.s. in terms of innovation and creativity. India does offer a godd market for Clinical trials. These trials cost a company around 200-300 million. By carring out 1/2 phase trails in india would save them a lot. I think it has already started. Inexpensive patients, large genetic pool, less chances of getting sued may be the reasons.
#57 Posted by satyamvada on March 18, 2005 5:54:15 pm
Charlie ,
Stop using ``we`` when referring to India :)
You first claimed that India had no research - when Indias excellent research
is shown, you want to now move the goal post and talk about citations eh ?
#58 Posted by Charlie on March 19, 2005 12:37:16 am
Re: # 57 when Indias excellent research is shown, you want to now move the goal post and talk about citations eh ?
Abay! Ab kon samjhay tujhay keh number of citations indicate if standard of research is good or no.
#57 Stop using ``we`` when referring to India :)
I was referring to sub-continent. You should be happy I was talkig about ``Greater India``, against the two nation theory. Aik to tum logon ko khush kerna bara mushkil hay.
Jang and Harish!
I agree with you when you say, it is unfair to comparze developed countries with India and China. and Secondly that , if not in research, when it comes to development India is becoming the hub.
Abay! Ab kon samjhay tujhay keh number of citations indicate if standard of research is good or no.
#57 Stop using ``we`` when referring to India :)
I was referring to sub-continent. You should be happy I was talkig about ``Greater India``, against the two nation theory. Aik to tum logon ko khush kerna bara mushkil hay.
Jang and Harish!
I agree with you when you say, it is unfair to comparze developed countries with India and China. and Secondly that , if not in research, when it comes to development India is becoming the hub.
#59 Posted by mohar11 on March 19, 2005 8:34:57 am
Re: # 58
//... I was talkig about ``Greater India``, against the two nation theory...//
What ``Greater India``? Actually, Indians like Two nation theory - it has served us well. Never mind RSS freaks and their ``Akhand Bharat `` cr@p. Partition was good - thousands died for the cause of separation between islamic freaks and rest of humanity. Nobody wants their death to go in vein. So there is no greater India - no undoing of the partition achieved at so much cost.
So thanks for trying to make indians happy - all you have to is stop jihad and stay on your side of the border.
//... I was talkig about ``Greater India``, against the two nation theory...//
What ``Greater India``? Actually, Indians like Two nation theory - it has served us well. Never mind RSS freaks and their ``Akhand Bharat `` cr@p. Partition was good - thousands died for the cause of separation between islamic freaks and rest of humanity. Nobody wants their death to go in vein. So there is no greater India - no undoing of the partition achieved at so much cost.
So thanks for trying to make indians happy - all you have to is stop jihad and stay on your side of the border.
#60 Posted by amit on March 19, 2005 10:43:27 am
Re:charlie#58
Please ignore the fanatic hate-filled postings of some Indians who want to bring up jihad and beat up on Pakistan all the time. They are a small minority sitting in the USA. Most Indians have very warm, friendly feelings for Pakistan, as shown by the reception given to Pakistanis in Mohali for the first cricket test match. Doctors even performed surgeries without charging the visitors.
At the same time, I dont think any Indian is interested in Greater India or Akhand Bharat. All that stuff is old hat. We want to live with Pakistanis as good friends and neighbors.
Please ignore the fanatic hate-filled postings of some Indians who want to bring up jihad and beat up on Pakistan all the time. They are a small minority sitting in the USA. Most Indians have very warm, friendly feelings for Pakistan, as shown by the reception given to Pakistanis in Mohali for the first cricket test match. Doctors even performed surgeries without charging the visitors.
At the same time, I dont think any Indian is interested in Greater India or Akhand Bharat. All that stuff is old hat. We want to live with Pakistanis as good friends and neighbors.
#61 Posted by mohar11 on March 19, 2005 4:00:33 pm
Re: # 60 amit
//....Most Indians have very warm, friendly feelings for Pakistan, as shown by the reception given to Pakistanis in Mohali for the first cricket test match...//
That`s very good. Even more reason for pakis to stop jihad against India - right?
So Never mind the ``small minority sitting in US``. If the ``show of warm feelings for Pakistan`` will make pakis give up jihad - then who is complaining? Whatever it takes. All we want is Wipro building is not blown up by jihadis. Let Indians live without feat of jihad.
+++
Either way - you may feel very lovey-dovey towards pakis - but a lot of people don`t feel that way and they are NOT in minority and all of them are NOT sitting in US. And they have a right to constantly talk/complain about jihad - there is nothing ``hate-filled`` about talking about jihad, because these people are victims of jihad. It`s like saying jews are ``hate-filled`` because always talk about holocaust.
Get it, big guy? Just like you have a right to be lovey-dovy - rest of folks [those rooted to reality] have a right cry jihad at the drop of a hat :). There is nothing wrong about that.
//....Most Indians have very warm, friendly feelings for Pakistan, as shown by the reception given to Pakistanis in Mohali for the first cricket test match...//
That`s very good. Even more reason for pakis to stop jihad against India - right?
So Never mind the ``small minority sitting in US``. If the ``show of warm feelings for Pakistan`` will make pakis give up jihad - then who is complaining? Whatever it takes. All we want is Wipro building is not blown up by jihadis. Let Indians live without feat of jihad.
+++
Either way - you may feel very lovey-dovey towards pakis - but a lot of people don`t feel that way and they are NOT in minority and all of them are NOT sitting in US. And they have a right to constantly talk/complain about jihad - there is nothing ``hate-filled`` about talking about jihad, because these people are victims of jihad. It`s like saying jews are ``hate-filled`` because always talk about holocaust.
Get it, big guy? Just like you have a right to be lovey-dovy - rest of folks [those rooted to reality] have a right cry jihad at the drop of a hat :). There is nothing wrong about that.
#62 Posted by bongdongs on March 19, 2005 6:29:06 pm
#57
Quit the arrogance man, ``quality`` research in India exists in isolated islands of excellence adrift in a sea of ``chalta hai``.
Quit the arrogance man, ``quality`` research in India exists in isolated islands of excellence adrift in a sea of ``chalta hai``.
#63 Posted by satyamvada on March 19, 2005 10:29:20 pm
Bongdongs,
Why are you so upset ?
Charlie claimed that there was no research in India - and evidence was pointed
out that he was wrong.
Can India do better ? - sure.
The research citations will start going up once Indian journals
start getting more distribution worldwide. For eg: In Statistics, the journal Sankhya
is widely respected in statistical circles (http://sankhya.isical.ac.in/index.html)
#64 Posted by MaheshG2 on March 19, 2005 11:32:29 pm
Amit,
What`s wrong in talking about Jihad? Is that not reality? Is it some bugaboo that Indians have made up?
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