Mahadev Gobind Ranade (1842-1901)
Yasser Latif Hamdani March 19, 2005
#554 Posted by MantoLives on March 28, 2005 8:08:46 am
Ballu Khan,
The original sources you have put up are the garbage by the same man who was amongst the worst racists of our time. I am afraid I can`t be intellectually honest with delusional people...
Harish Hyd,
As pointed out earlier... I have answered the question as I saw fit. I also respect your right to hold onto whatever opinion you have as you please... why must you try and impose those views on me?
Learn to be honest with yourself. Forget what I think.
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#553 Posted by friend on March 28, 2005 6:36:03 am
Let us examine life and speeches of leaders chronologically.
There are leaders like Jinnah who started with great statements and than with time retreated into an abysses of hatred, prejudice, bitterness and venom. Not only that, they dragged millions of others with them into that pit.
And than there is Gandhi, who gradually matured into a messenger of peace and his life ended as a beacon of truth and co-existence.
World acknowledges that Telecom Italia ad.
But will followers of hate ever acknowledge that
There are leaders like Jinnah who started with great statements and than with time retreated into an abysses of hatred, prejudice, bitterness and venom. Not only that, they dragged millions of others with them into that pit.
And than there is Gandhi, who gradually matured into a messenger of peace and his life ended as a beacon of truth and co-existence.
World acknowledges that Telecom Italia ad.
But will followers of hate ever acknowledge that
#552 Posted by harish_hyd on March 28, 2005 4:14:00 am
#551 by ballukhan
[If you have any intellectual honesty left then you should have read his works carefully and taken a closer introspection into your own prejudices (which obviously serve no purpose except for reinforcing the collective delusion of Pakistani `scholars`) and stop treating Gandhi`s own words as being `dishonest`!!!]
Oh please, don`t expect any honesty from the liar...er...lawyer. He only believes what was written by Wolpert, Seervai, and Embree....and of course, excerpts critical of Gandhi from Dr. Ambedkar`s works.
[If you have any intellectual honesty left then you should have read his works carefully and taken a closer introspection into your own prejudices (which obviously serve no purpose except for reinforcing the collective delusion of Pakistani `scholars`) and stop treating Gandhi`s own words as being `dishonest`!!!]
Oh please, don`t expect any honesty from the liar...er...lawyer. He only believes what was written by Wolpert, Seervai, and Embree....and of course, excerpts critical of Gandhi from Dr. Ambedkar`s works.
#551 Posted by ballukhan on March 27, 2005 10:04:28 pm
``#505 by Mantolives on March 25, 2005 5:18am PT
Re: # 504
Funny... when Ballu Khan and Macgupta put up 100 000 posts putting all sorts of garbage from Gandhi`s works.... You are perfectly ok with it... ``
Now this clearly shows that you are now incapable of LISTENING or even reading closely the ORIGINAL sources in order to unmask the prejudices of your historiography.
If you have any intellectual honesty left then you should have read his works carefully and taken a closer introspection into your own prejudices (which obviously serve no purpose except for reinforcing the collective delusion of Pakistani `scholars`) and stop treating Gandhi`s own words as being `dishonest`!!!
Re: # 504
Funny... when Ballu Khan and Macgupta put up 100 000 posts putting all sorts of garbage from Gandhi`s works.... You are perfectly ok with it... ``
Now this clearly shows that you are now incapable of LISTENING or even reading closely the ORIGINAL sources in order to unmask the prejudices of your historiography.
If you have any intellectual honesty left then you should have read his works carefully and taken a closer introspection into your own prejudices (which obviously serve no purpose except for reinforcing the collective delusion of Pakistani `scholars`) and stop treating Gandhi`s own words as being `dishonest`!!!
#550 Posted by harish_hyd on March 27, 2005 7:54:20 pm
#546 by Mantolives
[Tell me Rsidhar... did your Mahatma not make those statements... or was that concocted and every single copy of the collected works also concocted?]
And tell us Manto mian, if the fact that Jinnah didn’t make any statement instructing his leaders not to make any inflammatory statements is also concocted?
[Also according to Harish-hyd... suffering from chronic foot in the mouth disease... is claiming that G B Singh is a Khalistani... and I am sure the Secularhumanism website is actually a secret Islamic fundamentalist website. And then you ask me to answer your questions repeatedly...]
Oh yeah, and Dalitstan.org is a website that has been started by Dalits from India who are “oppressed” by the upper-caste Hindus!
[Dear Harish Hyd, I already answered the question as I saw fit. If you don`t agree with the answer, you are free to hold on to your irrational beliefs... I have no desire to prove the truth to you... you have described yourself well... the clown who knows only one trick. ]
No you didn’t. You didn’t answer a simple question as to what Jinnah did to stop the riots due to the Direct Action Day called by the Muslim League. Speaker after speaker made inflammatory statement and the riots raged on for over a week, but not a squeak from him in all those days. Why?
[BTW... you see how childish you sound by boldening those three alphabets... just because you lost an argument fair and square doesn`t mean you have to show your immaturity?]
So you declared yourself the winner without answering my question? Haven’t seen a more childish act from someone claiming to be an aspirng lawyer. And yeah, I emphasized my question by making it bold since you seem to have a knack for ignoring inconvenient questions.
[Tell me Rsidhar... did your Mahatma not make those statements... or was that concocted and every single copy of the collected works also concocted?]
And tell us Manto mian, if the fact that Jinnah didn’t make any statement instructing his leaders not to make any inflammatory statements is also concocted?
[Also according to Harish-hyd... suffering from chronic foot in the mouth disease... is claiming that G B Singh is a Khalistani... and I am sure the Secularhumanism website is actually a secret Islamic fundamentalist website. And then you ask me to answer your questions repeatedly...]
Oh yeah, and Dalitstan.org is a website that has been started by Dalits from India who are “oppressed” by the upper-caste Hindus!
[Dear Harish Hyd, I already answered the question as I saw fit. If you don`t agree with the answer, you are free to hold on to your irrational beliefs... I have no desire to prove the truth to you... you have described yourself well... the clown who knows only one trick. ]
No you didn’t. You didn’t answer a simple question as to what Jinnah did to stop the riots due to the Direct Action Day called by the Muslim League. Speaker after speaker made inflammatory statement and the riots raged on for over a week, but not a squeak from him in all those days. Why?
[BTW... you see how childish you sound by boldening those three alphabets... just because you lost an argument fair and square doesn`t mean you have to show your immaturity?]
So you declared yourself the winner without answering my question? Haven’t seen a more childish act from someone claiming to be an aspirng lawyer. And yeah, I emphasized my question by making it bold since you seem to have a knack for ignoring inconvenient questions.
#549 Posted by rsridhar on March 27, 2005 6:57:04 am
re: Jinnah`s legacy
When a nation was founded in the name of religion, it became necessary for generations of Pakistanis to justify the existence on the name of religion alone, forgetting that nations exist for various reasons and religion is perhaps only a part of that reason. Religion became the reason d`etre of Pakistan.
This resulted in 2 things:
1. Education became the first casualty. Generations of Pakistanis were told lies about the genesis of Pakistan. They were told bad things about Hindus, about India, so that India became the quintessesntial enemy next door. What followed was then the fear of a large enemy next door, a fear that was well exploited by the Army. Democracy became an obvious casualty.
2. Myth making. In order to justify Pakistan`s existence, myth making became a big industry in Paksitan. To the extent that even 9/11 was attributed by many to a jewish conspiracy!
In the following article, an enlightened Paksitani talks about the myth making.
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag1.htm
Excerpts:
(Myth: The Muslim League was the only representative body of the Muslims.
It is an incontrovertible fact that it was only after 1940 that the Muslim League established itself as a popular party among the Muslims. Prior to that, as evident in the 1937 elections, the Muslim League did not succeed in forming the government in any of the Muslim majority provinces. In those elections, out of the total of 482 Muslim seats, the Muslim League won only 103 (less than one-fourth of the total). Other seats went either to Congress Muslims or to nationalist parties such as the Punjab Unionist Party, the Sind Unionist Party and the Krishak Proja Party of Bengal.)
As i said, education was a big casualty due to this constant necessity to justify Pak`s existence on the basis of religion, a legacy of Jinnah.
I shall talk about this perhaps in my future posts. Education in Pak needs to be remoulded and truth told if Pakistanis were to ever have the hope of getting out of this ``fanatical ideological groove``. A beginning can be made with Hamdoor Rehman report and what really happened during the Bangladesh war and what the Army did. I dare say there is not one Pakistani in Chowk or otherwise who has the courage to do this. The repercussions are too severe to contemplate.
Sridhar
When a nation was founded in the name of religion, it became necessary for generations of Pakistanis to justify the existence on the name of religion alone, forgetting that nations exist for various reasons and religion is perhaps only a part of that reason. Religion became the reason d`etre of Pakistan.
This resulted in 2 things:
1. Education became the first casualty. Generations of Pakistanis were told lies about the genesis of Pakistan. They were told bad things about Hindus, about India, so that India became the quintessesntial enemy next door. What followed was then the fear of a large enemy next door, a fear that was well exploited by the Army. Democracy became an obvious casualty.
2. Myth making. In order to justify Pakistan`s existence, myth making became a big industry in Paksitan. To the extent that even 9/11 was attributed by many to a jewish conspiracy!
In the following article, an enlightened Paksitani talks about the myth making.
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/dmag/dmag1.htm
Excerpts:
(Myth: The Muslim League was the only representative body of the Muslims.
It is an incontrovertible fact that it was only after 1940 that the Muslim League established itself as a popular party among the Muslims. Prior to that, as evident in the 1937 elections, the Muslim League did not succeed in forming the government in any of the Muslim majority provinces. In those elections, out of the total of 482 Muslim seats, the Muslim League won only 103 (less than one-fourth of the total). Other seats went either to Congress Muslims or to nationalist parties such as the Punjab Unionist Party, the Sind Unionist Party and the Krishak Proja Party of Bengal.)
As i said, education was a big casualty due to this constant necessity to justify Pak`s existence on the basis of religion, a legacy of Jinnah.
I shall talk about this perhaps in my future posts. Education in Pak needs to be remoulded and truth told if Pakistanis were to ever have the hope of getting out of this ``fanatical ideological groove``. A beginning can be made with Hamdoor Rehman report and what really happened during the Bangladesh war and what the Army did. I dare say there is not one Pakistani in Chowk or otherwise who has the courage to do this. The repercussions are too severe to contemplate.
Sridhar
#548 Posted by rsridhar on March 26, 2005 6:26:02 pm
re: Jinnah`s legacy: Christopher hitchens On the Frontier of Apocalypse
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm
Like it used to be said in the old times: all roads lead to Rome, it is true to say today that all Jehadi roads lead to Pakistan, more specifically to one area of Pakistan where Pak govt`s writ does not run viz NWFP.
This, then is the abiding legacy of Md Ali Jinnah, a Pak where Jehad is religion and religion? Well, religion is something else!
Excerpts:
1. (But then, there is a certain hypocrisy inscribed in the very origins and nature of ``Pakistan``.. The name is no more than an acronym, confected in the 1930s at Cambridge University by a NW Muslim propagandist named Chaudhri Rahmat Ali. It stands for Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, and Indus-Sind, plus the suffix ``-stan,`` meaning ``land.`` In the Urdu tongue, the resulting word means ``Land of the Pure.`` The country is a cobbling together of regional, religious, and ethnic nationalisms, and its founding, in 1947, resulted in Pakistan`s becoming, along with Israel, one of the two ``faith-based`` states to emerge from the partitionist policy of a dying British colonialism. You may notice that there is no b in the acronym, even though for the first two decades of its existence Pa kistan forcibly enclosed East Bengal (now Bangladesh) and still includes the restive and reluctant province of Baluchistan.)
2. (Unlike India, which fought tenaciously for independence for many decades (until 1947), Pakistan cannot claim any glorious history of struggle as its birthright. It is the product -of a carve-up, against the wishes of a majority of the subcontinent`s population. The carve-up was a hasty improvised -
The carve-up was a hasty improvisation, designed to cover the retreat of the exhausted British, and achieved largely behind closed doors between the last viceroy, Lord Mountbatten, and Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the ambitious exclusivist leader of the subcontinent`s Muslim minority. Jinnah is still revered, Eastern European-style, as the great teacher and leader and unquestionable founder of the state. Fifty-four years later, there are almost as many Muslims in India as in Pakistan; the battle over the status of Kashmir is one of the deadliest and most volatile on the planet, and the resulting arms race,which now includes nuclear weaponry, consumes the budgets of two poverty-racked countries. Meanwhile, Pakistan is in a state of perpetual strife among its different regions and their rival Sunni and Shiite Islamic populations, while the 1971 Bangladesh war-in which a Muslim army put a Muslim population to the sword-is still memorable as one of the great horrors of the post 1945 period. Far from being a ``Land of the Pure,`` Pakistan is one of the clearest demonstrations of the futility of defining a nation by religion, and one of the textbook failures of a state and a society.)
A very illuminating article.
Sridhar
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm
Like it used to be said in the old times: all roads lead to Rome, it is true to say today that all Jehadi roads lead to Pakistan, more specifically to one area of Pakistan where Pak govt`s writ does not run viz NWFP.
This, then is the abiding legacy of Md Ali Jinnah, a Pak where Jehad is religion and religion? Well, religion is something else!
Excerpts:
1. (But then, there is a certain hypocrisy inscribed in the very origins and nature of ``Pakistan``.. The name is no more than an acronym, confected in the 1930s at Cambridge University by a NW Muslim propagandist named Chaudhri Rahmat Ali. It stands for Punjab, Afghania, Kashmir, and Indus-Sind, plus the suffix ``-stan,`` meaning ``land.`` In the Urdu tongue, the resulting word means ``Land of the Pure.`` The country is a cobbling together of regional, religious, and ethnic nationalisms, and its founding, in 1947, resulted in Pakistan`s becoming, along with Israel, one of the two ``faith-based`` states to emerge from the partitionist policy of a dying British colonialism. You may notice that there is no b in the acronym, even though for the first two decades of its existence Pa kistan forcibly enclosed East Bengal (now Bangladesh) and still includes the restive and reluctant province of Baluchistan.)
2. (Unlike India, which fought tenaciously for independence for many decades (until 1947), Pakistan cannot claim any glorious history of struggle as its birthright. It is the product -of a carve-up, against the wishes of a majority of the subcontinent`s population. The carve-up was a hasty improvised -
The carve-up was a hasty improvisation, designed to cover the retreat of the exhausted British, and achieved largely behind closed doors between the last viceroy, Lord Mountbatten, and Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the ambitious exclusivist leader of the subcontinent`s Muslim minority. Jinnah is still revered, Eastern European-style, as the great teacher and leader and unquestionable founder of the state. Fifty-four years later, there are almost as many Muslims in India as in Pakistan; the battle over the status of Kashmir is one of the deadliest and most volatile on the planet, and the resulting arms race,which now includes nuclear weaponry, consumes the budgets of two poverty-racked countries. Meanwhile, Pakistan is in a state of perpetual strife among its different regions and their rival Sunni and Shiite Islamic populations, while the 1971 Bangladesh war-in which a Muslim army put a Muslim population to the sword-is still memorable as one of the great horrors of the post 1945 period. Far from being a ``Land of the Pure,`` Pakistan is one of the clearest demonstrations of the futility of defining a nation by religion, and one of the textbook failures of a state and a society.)
A very illuminating article.
Sridhar
#547 Posted by rsridhar on March 26, 2005 6:11:12 pm
re:#545 by harish_hyd
The guy in question clearly has a lot of growing up to do. He is struck in a groove called Jinnah.
Sridhar
The guy in question clearly has a lot of growing up to do. He is struck in a groove called Jinnah.
Sridhar
#546 Posted by MantoLives on March 26, 2005 1:39:32 pm
It seems that Indians have a very active imagination. Since my absence, it has been declared that I am ``Dalit`` ... yes... some conspiracy theory that is. I post under Mantolives only and nothing else...
Tell me Rsidhar... did your Mahatma not make those statements... or was that concocted and every single copy of the collected works also concocted?
Also according to Harish-hyd... suffering from chronic foot in the mouth disease... is claiming that G B Singh is a Khalistani... and I am sure the Secularhumanism website is actually a secret Islamic fundamentalist website. And then you ask me to answer your questions repeatedly...
Dear Harish Hyd, I already answered the question as I saw fit. If you don`t agree with the answer, you are free to hold on to your irrational beliefs... I have no desire to prove the truth to you... you have described yourself well... the clown who knows only one trick.
BTW... you see how childish you sound by boldening those three alphabets... just because you lost an argument fair and square doesn`t mean you have to show your immaturity?
Adios...
-YLH
Tell me Rsidhar... did your Mahatma not make those statements... or was that concocted and every single copy of the collected works also concocted?
Also according to Harish-hyd... suffering from chronic foot in the mouth disease... is claiming that G B Singh is a Khalistani... and I am sure the Secularhumanism website is actually a secret Islamic fundamentalist website. And then you ask me to answer your questions repeatedly...
Dear Harish Hyd, I already answered the question as I saw fit. If you don`t agree with the answer, you are free to hold on to your irrational beliefs... I have no desire to prove the truth to you... you have described yourself well... the clown who knows only one trick.
BTW... you see how childish you sound by boldening those three alphabets... just because you lost an argument fair and square doesn`t mean you have to show your immaturity?
Adios...
-YLH
#545 Posted by harish_hyd on March 26, 2005 7:06:47 am
#526 by rsridhar
[Who the fukc is G.B.Singh?]
Yasser is now reduced to quoting some Khalistani propagandists. Next thing you know, he might start quoting from Dalitstan.org.
He doesn`t have the balls to answer a simple question. Now he is trying to shift the focus on to Gandhi`s racism. Like a clown who knows only one trick, this guy has been shouting ``Gandhi racist, Gandhi racist..`` for quite some time now.
[Who the fukc is G.B.Singh?]
Yasser is now reduced to quoting some Khalistani propagandists. Next thing you know, he might start quoting from Dalitstan.org.
He doesn`t have the balls to answer a simple question. Now he is trying to shift the focus on to Gandhi`s racism. Like a clown who knows only one trick, this guy has been shouting ``Gandhi racist, Gandhi racist..`` for quite some time now.
#544 Posted by harish_hyd on March 26, 2005 7:06:17 am
#519 by Mantolives
[So lame jokes and repetitive posting is your only way of countering?]
Like you, I`m not trying to be smart by dodging the issue. If you have the balls, answer my straightforward question. What did the opportunist crook Jinnah do to stop the riots? Being the Jinnah ``expert``, it should be easy for you...unless Jinnah did nothing.
[So lame jokes and repetitive posting is your only way of countering?]
Like you, I`m not trying to be smart by dodging the issue. If you have the balls, answer my straightforward question. What did the opportunist crook Jinnah do to stop the riots? Being the Jinnah ``expert``, it should be easy for you...unless Jinnah did nothing.
#543 Posted by rsridhar on March 25, 2005 11:02:59 am
re:#539 by kaalchakra
Guys,
Did u notice how this character Dalit propped up when i started my tirade against Jinnah. This is YLH, aka Mantolives. Make no mistake about this.
Anyway, we should not hide the fact that Dailt problem is India`s shame. Let everybody see India`s scars. Therein lies India`s salvation.
Sridhar
Guys,
Did u notice how this character Dalit propped up when i started my tirade against Jinnah. This is YLH, aka Mantolives. Make no mistake about this.
Anyway, we should not hide the fact that Dailt problem is India`s shame. Let everybody see India`s scars. Therein lies India`s salvation.
Sridhar
#542 Posted by rsridhar on March 25, 2005 10:59:37 am
re:#535 by Dalit
Thanks for the articles, YLH.
There are problems with Dalits. It is really very shameful but they are now empowered to fight it out. And, educated middle class Indians are with them. But i hope to see more such articles. We need to be transparent about these things. There is no honor in defending a lie, worse still in defending atrocities.
Sridhar
Thanks for the articles, YLH.
There are problems with Dalits. It is really very shameful but they are now empowered to fight it out. And, educated middle class Indians are with them. But i hope to see more such articles. We need to be transparent about these things. There is no honor in defending a lie, worse still in defending atrocities.
Sridhar
#540 Posted by rsridhar on March 25, 2005 10:35:42 am
re: Jinnah`s legacy: The Shia-Sunni violence in Bakistan
His own family had converted from Hinduism to Islam some centuries ago. It was his destiny to found a nation for muslims. But if Jinnah hoped that the nation he founded would live in peace with itself, he was mistaken.
Shias and Sunnis are killing each other today in Pakistan whereas they live in relative peace in India!
So, was Pakistan (now Bakistan) a great idea if the very people it was founded for are killing each other today? The founder of that nation is not here to answer that question but his legacy is here for all to see.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3045122.stm
(Most sectarian violence in Pakistan takes place in the province of Punjab and the country`s commercial capital, Karachi, in Sindh province.
There have also been outbreaks in Quetta, capital of Balochistan province.
It is estimated that around 4,000 people have been killed in Shia-Sunni violence since the 1980s across Pakistan. )
Why are Shias and Sunnis killing each other in Pakistan.
It seems that the rift is a historical one and dates back to the death of Ali and Hussein. Pakistan is just a breeding ground for this hatred. From time to time this flares up into killings.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1004828728595
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3170970.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2792159.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1868406.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/1464131.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1338079.stm
Sridhar
His own family had converted from Hinduism to Islam some centuries ago. It was his destiny to found a nation for muslims. But if Jinnah hoped that the nation he founded would live in peace with itself, he was mistaken.
Shias and Sunnis are killing each other today in Pakistan whereas they live in relative peace in India!
So, was Pakistan (now Bakistan) a great idea if the very people it was founded for are killing each other today? The founder of that nation is not here to answer that question but his legacy is here for all to see.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3045122.stm
(Most sectarian violence in Pakistan takes place in the province of Punjab and the country`s commercial capital, Karachi, in Sindh province.
There have also been outbreaks in Quetta, capital of Balochistan province.
It is estimated that around 4,000 people have been killed in Shia-Sunni violence since the 1980s across Pakistan. )
Why are Shias and Sunnis killing each other in Pakistan.
It seems that the rift is a historical one and dates back to the death of Ali and Hussein. Pakistan is just a breeding ground for this hatred. From time to time this flares up into killings.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_PrintFriendly&c=Article&cid=1004828728595
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3170970.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2792159.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1868406.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/1464131.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1338079.stm
Sridhar
#539 Posted by KaalChakra on March 25, 2005 10:21:56 am
Dalit
Giving up Hinduism for Christianity is choosing a stone in place of a diamond.
But you have every right to take advantage of our own mistakes. We will play by your rules.
Giving up Hinduism for Christianity is choosing a stone in place of a diamond.
But you have every right to take advantage of our own mistakes. We will play by your rules.
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