One more example of Enlightened Moderation. Hurrah.
Must be a new style of a new generation of rally holders. Shame.

Musharraf’s Bahawalpur rally: 2 killed in stampede
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-3-2005_pg1_3

MULTAN: Two children were killed and 20 people including policemen were injured after a stampede at a public meeting addressed by President Musharraf in Bahawalpur on Friday.

Witnesses said nazims took thousands of people to the stadium at 8am to attend the president’s address. The people were stopped from taking food and water while no arrangements for water were made inside. The address was due at 10am, but started at 3pm. The people had tried to leave the stadium earlier, but they were not allowed to do so. After the speech ended, the people tried getting out of the stadium and police pushed them back in. They (people) got agitated and broke the stadium’s wall and gate and stoned the police. Resultantly, a boy was killed while another died in hospital and 20 people got injured including DSP Rehmatullah. staff report

Iraq`s Jaafari aims for Sharia rule

IRAQ`S

frontrunning Shiite candidate for prime minister, Ibrahim Jaafari, said
in an interview he aimed to introduce sharia Islamic law and federalism
and confirmed Saddam Hussein would be judged by the end of the year.
``It`s understandable in a country where the majority of people are
Muslim,`` Mr Jaafari said of the Sharia law, in an interview conducted
in Baghdad due to appear in Tuesday`s edition of German magazine Der Spiegel.

``Iraq should become a Muslim country but without falling under the influence of Iran or Saudi Arabia,`` he said.
``Everyone will have the same rights, even members of the many minor
religious communities,`` he said, explaining there would be multiple
forms of jurisprudence.
He also said women would be under no legal obligation to wear a veil.
``They will make their own decisions,`` the Shiite candidate said.
According to results of a poll released yesterday, most Iraqis are
deeply attached to their Islamic identity but do not want a strict
application of sharia law, as in neighbouring Saudi Arabia or Iran.
About 48 per cent of those interviewed agreed that ``religion has a
special role to play in the government``, while 46 per cent supported a
separation of state and mosque.
The poll was based on some 2000 interviews covering 15 of 18 provinces
by an Iraqi firm employed by the right-wing US International Republican
Institute.
Mr Jaafari also had calming words for the Kurdish community, mainly based in the country`s north.
``I`m for a federal Iraqi state,`` he explained.
Mr Jaafari is head of the Islamic party Dawa, which is part of a Shiite
alliance holding a majority of 146 from a possible 275 seats from the
general election.
The alliance is in talks with Kurds, whose two main parties won 75
seats, over the formation of an executive within the next two weeks.
Mr Jaafari said the Shiite alliance would do everything to encourage
the Sunni community to work with them on a new constitution.
Another major question facing Iraq is the fate of the former dictator.
``The Saddam Hussein case will be closed before year`s end,`` he confirmed.

Dear Yasmeen,

Very well said.

Hopefully, someone conscientious will take a step by becoming sensitive to their own follies. I think if everybody did her /his part in our communities, acting responsibly, we all could spend the same time enjoying a sense of purity of conscience, but.. people think very narrow.

Thanks for bringing this up in such a way.

-Saira

#32 by malik.m.imran on March 19, 2005 1:18pm PT

very well stated...logical, articulate and to the point...

Ref: HisExcellency

“His only flaw is that he is not a democratically elected politician. But this flaw is actually his greatest strength. After playing musical chairs with politicians for 12 years, the people of Pakistan are fed up with the bhuttos, sharifs, junejos, pagaras, altaf hussains and their ilk. Let their be a new generation of politicians. Then we`ll talk of democracy.”

Please, read your reply once again and then kindly try to enlighten us a little bit about “the new generation of politicians” you are alluding to. I sincerely hope you really don’t mean the “new” Q-wrapping of Shujaat Hussain, Faisal Saleh Hayat, Sherpao, and so many, many more.

Should I make your job even easier: which corrupt minister of the previous administration(s) is not with your general today?

And then wait; let Musharraf ziaed, these Chinese locomotives, shabby PIA deals, NHA accounts - all exclusively handled by your honest generals, reporting directly to Musharraf - will soon explode in your face. People – I mean not deaf, blind and dead people like some of interactors over here - will be marvelled to learn the magnitude of plunder done by these honest non-political fauji generals.

Ref: faisaluno
How do you define a loser?
I assume in your world: The one who notices something wrong going on, dislikes it, points it out, write about it, condemn it? Right!?
Nighat has pointed out 25 points, which one is wrong? And perhaps more importantly which sin of hers makes her loser?
Then dear beta can we trust the judgment of a moron who regularly comes to a third class loser site to read third class loser writers giving his first-class winner gratis opinion? Would you grade such an individual a winner?

Finally, I can overlook if one comes through the backdoor. If there is a way to kick him/her out through the front door through non-violent means. Or put it like this, if that backdoor burglar is willing to leave the house one day. Is such an option one available today? As before, there will be first 2002, then 2007, then 2012 and ultimately littars (shoes) if not mango crates.

It is all about traditions, precedents set by the rulers and the signals they send downwards. Nations go forward, develop and make progress because of its institutional strength and rule of the law. Nothing more, nothing less.

Military setups, no matter how good, benevolent they are or how good for the time being growth rate is, ultimately it will end up as it has always done. The economical boom during Ayub led to dismembering of the country, Zia’s 6 % growth mutilated us religiously, socially and need not to mention politically.

The current superficial boom in some aspects will not be different in the absence of two most fundamental parameters – RULE OF THE LAW & JUSTICE. Take my words for it.

Addition to #29: Following is the list of Prime Ministers of Pakistan:

Liaquat Ali Khan (landowning family, though not from Pakistani areas. born in Haryana)
Khawaja Nazimuddin (Bengali Nawab family)
Muhammad Ali Bogra (Bengali Nawab family)
Chaudhry Muhammad Ali (Jullandhar - non-Nawab and non-landowner)
Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy (Bengali origin - non Nawab and non-landowner)
Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar (don`t know)
Sir Feroz Khan Noon (Punjabi landowning family)

Martial Law...........

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (Sindhi Landowning family)

Martial Law

Muhammad Khan Junejo (Sindhi landowning family)
Benazir Bhutto (Sindhi Landowning family)
Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi (Sindhi landowning family)
Nawaz Sharif (Punjabi business family)
Balakh Sher Mazari (Baluchi landowning tribal family)
Nawaz Sharif
Moin Qureshi (non-landowner)
Benazir Bhutto
Miraj Khalid (non-landowner Punjabi)
Nawaz Sharif

Martial Law

Zafarullah Khan Jamali - (Baluchi landowner)
Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain - (Punjabi son of a police constable)
Shaukat Aziz - Punjabi urbanite

The above should indicate two things. One that the Army has had a lot of influecne in who runs the country. Two the country`s elected houses have always elected a landowner to the top. Each and every time. The only non-landowners were specifically placed there by the Army. And out of those non-landowners only one (Nawaz Sharif) has been able to make any room for himself in Pakistan`s politics, even after the Army let go of him.......

Not a single maulvi has ever ruled Pakistan. Nor has any urbanite........barring the odd few who ruled in the early days, for a few months or so. Infact the only ones from middle-class urbanites who did rule, did so through Martial Law (Ayub, Zia and Musharraf).......From Bhutto onwards, it has been out and out landowners...........

Blast in Pakistan Kills 15, Injures 25

By NASEER KAKAR, Associated Press Writer

QUETTA, Pakistan - A powerful bomb exploded Saturday at a gathering of minority Shiite Muslims in a remote town in southwestern Pakistan, killing at least 15 people and wounding 25 others, police said.



Thousands of worshippers had congregated at the shrine of a Shiite saint near the town of Naseerabad, about 210 miles south of Quetta, when the bomb went off outside, said Merab Khan, a local police official.

It was not immediately known who was behind the blast. Police said they were investigating.

``Right now people are angry. They are wailing and crying. Some of them have blocked roads in the town and we are trying to control the situation,`` Khan told The Associated Press.

Khan said the bodies and injured, some in critical condition, were transported to a nearby hospital. He expected the death toll to rise.

Pakistan has a history of sectarian violence, mostly blamed on rival majority Sunni and minority Shiite extremist groups. About 80 percent of Pakistan`s 150 million people are Sunnis and 17 percent Shiites.

HP #22: ``Contrary to what you hear from Romair, Feudal in Pakistan are just fellow travelers of the army and bureaucracy. The Bhuttos were the only feudal family that made it to the top with lots of help from the army.``

Actually I have never said this. I have always stated that the feudals, beaurecracy and Army have generally worked together in ruling the country. Infact, I actually printed the whole family tree of Gohar Ayub and how it links the beaurecracy, Army, feudals and businessman politicians of ANP, PPP and PML into one family. They are all, literally realted to each other through marriages........

In fact, one of the points I have made is that the Army has never taken on the feudals. It has taken on everyone else, at some stage. But never the feudals. It has sidelined individual feudal politicians, but never taken them on as a group. Ayub and Zia`s off-springs actually joined the feudals. Uptil that point, the average powerful family in Pakistan, had one son owning the land, one in the beaurecracy, one in business and one in the Army. Even Musharraf, who has taken on the maulvis, has not taken on the feudals.

However, there is a change that has occured. The Army, no longer attracts wealthy people, as a profession. Sons of feudals and businessmen etc. rarely go into the Army now. It now has a very middle class and lower middle class officer base. Sons of taxi drivers, enlisted army men, people who own motrocycles and not cars. So a break is occuring.

In terms of politics, in a sense, Bhutto was the first feudal to brekthrough. You are correct. But since then, the feudals have owned the elected houses of Pakistan. Every elected National assembly, statistically has had between 60% to 66% feudal members. You can go ahead and check the statistics. That should indicate something. It is only now that maulvis have made some inroads.

But the middle class urban Pakistani has never had any voice in any elected house. The power of feudals in Pakistan, will decrease, as the country becomes urbanised. However, it seems to be decreasing far slower than in most other countries. Pakistan, still, probably has amongst the most landowning elected members in the world.

And if you start from Bhutto, the Prime Minsters (Benazir, Mazari, Junejo, Jamali) have all been landowners. The only exceptions have been people like Nawaz and Shaukut Aziz, both of whom were handpicked by the Army. And even they were elected as partymembers of PML, which has a strong base of landowners.

I cannot see any urbanite rising on his own merit, leading his own party, without the help of the Army (or anyone else) become the head of Pakistan. Look at the troubles Imran Khan is having. And look at the troubles Asghar Khan had........If you can name any non-maulvi and/or non-feudal urbanite leading a non-fedual party to the top of Pakistan, I am all ears.......

In Pakiland, when Pakis close their eyes, the sun sets....


Pakistan sets army on tribal protesters
By Justin Huggler and Shiv Malik in Baluchistan

19 March 2005

Pakistan is poised on the precipice of a tribal war in the vast desert province of Baluchistan after the army unleashed helicopter gunships and heavy weapons on local protesters. The Independent has learnt that during two days of violence, more than 60 tribespeople in the region, including women and children, have been killed. Reports suggest the confrontation is becoming increasingly brutal.

Balochistan train blasts kill two

QUETTA: At least two passengers of Quetta and Lahore bound Chiltan Express trains were killed and nine others wounded in two separate bomb explosions in the trains at Mach and Mushkaf areas of Balochistan on Friday.

Eight soldiers die in ambush

From correspondents in Quetta, Pakistan
March 19, 2005 EIGHT soldiers were killed and 23 wounded in a fierce battle with tribal militants in Pakistan`s troubled southwest, the military said today, while a tribal politician said dozens of tribesmen died.

Re: # 14

{{I am seriously thinking of reclaiming my grandparents` house in Srinagar. Legend has it that they were quite wealthy and left behind everything to move across to Pakistan. I will be buying my ticket on the Kashmir bus, shortly. The a//hole living in that house, better get ready..........I am coming to kick his ass and reclaim what is mine.........And I will be under the protection of a gora govt. passport......... }}

Goodluck with that..
Btw, when you bump into Santa Claus, tell him I said... ``hey! wassup!!``


{{Do recall that about three or four years ago, I kept saying that it is a great time to invest in Gwadar. I said that under Musharraf, and Shaukut`s economic team, Pakistan`s economy was going to pick up. And Gwadar would be quite important. A lot of people laughed at me. They actually thought I was joking. Well, look now...........Everyone and their grandparent is investing in Gwadar....... }}

Yeah Nostradamus! Thats exactly why you should invest in Gilgit. When the bus service opens, & Indian Kashmiri muslims see how utterly magnificent life in PoK is--they will refuse to go back (kinda like the beginning of the collapse of the Berlin Wall). Many of those refugees will have degrees... Dont you see the handwriting on the wall?! Azaaad Kashmir-the next Singapore!

Dont pose as a Canuk in Enslaved Kashmir yaar! Watch out...many of the apparent gora-looking tourists in enslaved Kashmir are Israelis!

Re: # 6
``Is there any example that you can quote from all over the world when common folks stood up against any government, tyranny, or any state? It is always the middleclass, the educated class which fights for changes because they have interest in the country and the society. The ``common man`` is a dumb peasant or a rickshaw puller who has no interest with democracy or any thing like that.``
HP,
Shore Sahib (#7) has made a point there.

``This reply did not show any strength of people. If you won’t mind my saying that the Indian general saw a stupid question and came back with a stock answer.``

The journalist was not stupid, he probably knew what the answer would be. The Indian Army Chief also knew that should he take over the reins, there would be no mass uprising. He wanted to make a point and the journalist wanted to make a point by quoting him. My point in narrating the incident was not what would actually take place, but to show that respect between institutions and the people is mutual. The argument that has developed on whether Indian Army can enter politics or not is needless and has little relevance to what is being discussed.

A few points regarding why we have reached a stage where we have to search for positives. Nations that need to build institutions do not put them through tests in infancy where their character and strength is tested before they have had time to build traditions in these spheres. We are all humans and susceptible to many pressures. As individuls we can only sustain that pressure if the institutions that we belong to have a tradition and record of withstanding these pressures. We should have by now built a reservoir of positive traditions for every institutions so that it could withstand pressures. On the contrary, we put virtually every institution through a test when that institutions had yet to build traditions of fair play and strength. Thus what emerged as a result of putting them through this trial became the norm. Had we nurtured role models of character, honour and strength in every institution we would have helped build these values in these institutions. If there were any role models they were all sacrificed to serve temporary interests.

#14 by Romair on March 18, 2005 7:47pm PT



Actually, I am seriously thinking of reclaiming my grandparents` house in Srinagar. Legend has it that they were quite wealthy and left behind everything to move across to Pakistan. I will be buying my ticket on the Kashmir bus, shortly. The a//hole living in that house, better get ready..........I am coming to kick his ass and reclaim what is mine.........And I will be under the protection of a gora govt. passport........


Yes..you should try that...The Indian army has some special treatment reserved for you..treatment that will make trailer park lynndie look like florence nightingale...

Funny how people who had to high tail it to canuckistan now claim they have a passport from that government....



Do recall that about three or four years ago,


you also said something about this...

When was the last time a democratically elected govt in Pakiland bombed paki civilians using helicopter gunships and artillery?


Pakistan sets army on tribal protesters
By Justin Huggler and Shiv Malik in Baluchistan

19 March 2005

Pakistan is poised on the precipice of a tribal war in the vast desert province of Baluchistan after the army unleashed helicopter gunships and heavy weapons on local protesters. The Independent has learnt that during two days of violence, more than 60 tribespeople in the region, including women and children, have been killed. Reports suggest the confrontation is becoming increasingly brutal.

Baluchistan covers almost half of Pakistan and is home to tribespeople who respect no central law. Outside the main cities, tribal rules apply and the region has traditionally been a no-go area for Pakistani police. Law and order is kept by tribal chiefs paid by the government to keep a semblance of control.

Tensions with Karachi spilled over into violence in January after Pakistani soldiers stationed in the area were accused of raping a local woman doctor. This, together with the attempted eviction of 30,000 tribespeople from the area containing Pakistan`s largest gas fields and the imminent opening of a new port in the province, has led to reprisals from local chiefs who accuse Karachi of decades of brutality and neglect.

Nawab Akbar Bugti, one of the tribal chiefs who has been leading local opposition to the government of Pervez Musharraf, says his people have been attacked without provocation.

``The situation was that the army opened up with uniform and concentrated fire with artillery and mortar directly at my house,`` he told The Independent. ``A mortar came through the roof and killed two people sitting to the left of me.``

Nawab Bugti says that in total 60 people were killed and more than 150 injured.

The Pakistani military countered by claiming that one of its convoys was attacked as it was passing through the town, killing eight soldiers.

The ripples of what has happened in Dera Bugti could spread much further. Though he is 78, Nawab Bugti commands the loyalty of more than 30,000 tribesmen, all of them heavily armed and prepared to fight and die for him. Bombs exploded on two trains in Baluchistan yesterday, killing two people and wounding eight, a sign that the violence is already spreading beyond Dera Bugti.

A recent siege of the Sui gas field by Baluch tribesmen incensed at the alleged rape, led to gas supplies to the rest of the country being cut off for more than a week. The military has now retaken Sui, about 45 minutes by car from Dera Bugti, and is said to have a considerable force based there.

Many fear that the impoverished tribespeople will now face a brutal military offensive similar to that which Pakistan unleashed on restive tribesmen in the 1970s but updated with lethal modern weaponry.

President Musharraf threatened as much after the Sui siege when he said: ``Don`t push us. It isn`t the 1970s when you can hit and run and hide in the mountains. This time you won`t even know what hit you.``

But the Baluch are talking tough too. ``An uprising would be more fierce and more strong than it was in 1973,`` the secretay-general of the Jamhoori Watan Party, Shahid Baloch toldThe Independent. ``The general said the Baluch insurgents would not know what hit them because it`s not the 70s. Yes, we know it`s not the 70s, but it doesn`t go for us only. It goes for both of the parties.``

The anger does not stem from a single act of rape. There was a series of bombings last year. The rape was a catalyst, but the anger has more to do with the huge new port Pakistan is constructing at Gwadar on the coast - and the fact that the tribesmen see Baluchistan not as a province of Pakistan, but as their homeland.

They fear the authorities will bring in millions of ethnic outsiders from the overcrowded cities of Punjab province to live and work in Gwadar, changing the demographics of Baluchistan forever.

``After passing through years of bitter experiences we feel that Gwadar will be a death warrant,`` said Mr Baloch. ``Once we are turned into a minority what`s left for us? I`d put it this way: the white man started developing the great American plains and removing the red Indians in the name of development Now in the 21st century our Pakistani rulers are trying to apply the same formula``.

There is also seething resentment that Baluch towns remain primitive places, not even connected to the gas from their own land, neglected by the Pakistani authorities, while they pump it into Gwadar.

Musharraf is a hypocritical opportunist. He is a typical general of the Pakistan Army who holds the interest of the Army above that of the country. He talks of ``enlightened moderation`` to please his bosses in Washington while at home he enters into an alliance with the Mullahs who want to take the world back to the deserts of 6th century Arabia.

Amit,

Gandhi certainly brought the politics and independent movement to the “common man” in Indian cities only. Before the partition only about 15% of the Indian population lived in cities and all that Bandh and Hartal stuff had no impact on the rural India, which constituted about 85% of the Indian population then. That number now stands at about 70% and still a numerical majority that has very little influence over the policy and other affairs in India. In India or for that matter in Pakistani or bangle deshi or all third world countries with a majority of rural population, the majority is brought to vote only. It has no influence over any policy in the country. That is why I debunk the ``common man`` arguement.

Gandhi never extended the political awareness to Indian villages. Indian peasant and Indian villages were silent spectators in the whole freedom struggle. Their role in Indian political society has not changed much since.

Your idea of land reforms in Pakistan does have some validity but it is not the one single important factor. Let me first bring up the Indian land reforms. The land reforms in India only begun to take shape in the 1960s and that was a provincial subject. Most of the larger landholdings were saved by shifting the holdings around several family members and trusted family employees. In UP, the orchid rule helped the landowners immensely. I doubt that very many landowners lost lands in those land reforms. Bihar and AP, I believe still have large land owners or feudal if I may say so. Therefore, they still hold political influence in India.
The real difference between Pakistan and India was the size of land holdings. In Pakistan, a family tended to hold larger but less fertile areas so their economic and political influence was not so dominant barring a few super landowner families. The Pakistani feudal became financial feudal when first the GM barrage and then Tarbela Dam were constructed. From 1947 to 1958, when the army was slowly gaining control of Pakistan, very few landowners collaborated with the army politically. The army and the civil bureaucracy in Pakistan were partners in murdering the stillborn democracy. The civil bureaucracy consisted of people who actually were part of the ICS and other government officer that moved from India after 1947.
Contrary to what you hear from Romair, Feudal in Pakistan are just fellow travelers of the army and bureaucracy. The Bhuttos were the only feudal family that made it to the top with lots of help from the army. The real value of the feudal in Pakistan society is their ability to gather votes from the rural areas and deliver them to the party of their choice.
In return, they are rewarded with some ministerial posts and agricultural loans to live off easily.
I hope you know that most feudal in Punjab were former British army officers originally. So their influence to carry votes depends on the money they can spend in the elections. It was not difficult at all for Bhutto- a non-Punjabi- and Nawaz Sharif to beat them in elections.

Re:HP#17

I agree with you about the ``common man`` thing to a certain extent. Thanks to Gandhi, India does have the tradition of mass mobilization, civil disobedience etc. Heck, our lives are made miserable by all the bandhs and hartals being organized. So there is a tradition in India of the common man getting together to organize protests and paralyzing the system. However, there are limits to such mobilization. Mass movements cannot forcibly take over power, unless there is civil war, revolution or some external power intervening, all of which are very rare, but they can make life miserable for whoever is in power.

You also wrote:``Once the US tied the army up in different alliances, starting with 1951 Korea war the Pakistan army continued to gain in strength, and weak political parties lost ground to it``. I think a cardinal mistake made in Pakistan was to keep the feudal system in place after 1947. As a result, your politics became dominated by feudals like Bhuttos, Legharis etc. These people used politics as a tool to keep their stranglehold on power preventing genuine democracy to develop at the grassroots and attracting frequent attention from your army.

Indian army is a very influential player in the Indian system, although it is in the background. This is to be expected given the centrifugal forces in a diverse nation like India and India`s growing ambitions to be a great power. However, the Indian army is smart enough to know the limits of its capabilities and realizes that it cannot take over the burden of administering India. It does not want to bite off more than it can chew.