Neither Enlightened nor Moderate

# 15 ,HisExcellency,
you are right, first give us the list of noble deeds done from democratic side.
Every on e see the life through on`s lense.but it is reality Musharraf is the best leader so far we have.
Be positive we are going to be a strong nation soon.
if we start useing good words more often and frequently ,we can bring a change in a condition in which we are now.just as positive thought brings good to the individual ,so the collective thougts bring good to the nation.

# 15 ,HisExcellency,
you are right, first give us the list of noble deeds done from democratic side.
Every on e see the life through on`s lense.but it is reality Musharraf is the best leader so far we have.
Be positive we are going to be a strong nation soon.
if we start useing good words more often and frequently ,we can bring a change in a condition in which we are now.just as positive thought brings good to the individual ,so the collective thougts bring good to the nation.

# 15 ,HisExcellency,
you are right, first give us the list of noble deeds done from democratic side.
Every on e see the life through on`s lense.but it is reality Musharraf is the best leader so far we have.
Be positive we are going to be a strong nation soon.
if we start useing good words more often and frequently ,we can bring a change in a condition in which we are now.just as positive thought brings good to the individual ,so the collective thougts bring good to the nation.

Amit,
I never said anything about Indian army taking over in India. I was making a point about the “common man” in my post # 6. If the Indian army and it were a big if, takes over in India, the resistance would not come from the “common man” as the “common man” is unconcerned with theses issues at least in the third world countries.
I squarely blame the army in Pakistan for destroying that country’s culture, ethnic balance, tolerance level, and social fabric. I fully understand the impact the army takeover would have on India.
Why the army is in power in Pakistan and it is not in India is not difficult to follow. Indians politicians and political parties after the independence were very much stronger and influential than the army. In Pakistan, both the army and the political parties were weak to begin with. Once the US tied the army up in different alliances, starting with 1951 Korea war the Pakistan army continued to gain in strength, and weak political parties lost ground to it.
Now we can some other time discuss the real influence the current Indian army has over the Indian political system.

Re:HP

The real reason India has not seen military rule is its size and diversity. India is just too large and too diverse to be ruled autocratically by one person. Even if such a person like Mrs. Gandhi shows up, it is difficult for them to continue after a while. The entire system in India is afloat on the basis of power sharing and compromise between the different sections. One man cannot balance the needs and requirements for such a diverse country and be fair to everyone. This is the historical reason why India has always had weak or non-existent central rule while there have been strong provincial or regional political centers. Can you imagine an Indian version of Musharraf balancing the needs of Nagaland and Karnataka? That person will lose his mind.

History has also shown that whenever large diverse countries have autocratic rule, it leads to very bad results like the disintegration of the Soviet Union or the breakup of pre-1971 Pakistan. India has avoided such a fate by clinging to a democratic process that allows everyone to participate.

re: Nighat Yasmeen

``I will be grateful if someone can post a counter list pointing out the invisible positive traits of “enlightened moderation” other than increase in foreign exchange deposits and KSE performance as both are more or less unanticipated side effects of 9-11``

I would be grateful if you could post a list pointing out the invisible positive traits of ``democratically elected`` governments other than the fact that they came to power through the ballot.

Legitimacy is derived not just from how power is attained. It is also derived from the how power is exercised. And on that count, Musharraf is the most legitimate ruler in Pakistan`s history since Jinnah. That is why the middle class doesn`t want to get rid of Musharraf. The middle class likes Musharraf. His only flaw is that he is not a democratically elected politician. But this flaw is actually his greatest strength. After playing musical chairs with politicians for 12 years, the people of Pakistan are fed up with the bhuttos, sharifs, junejos, pagaras, altaf hussains and their ilk. Let their be a new generation of politicians. Then we`ll talk of democracy.

shankar #10: ``Great time for you to invest in Gilgit.``

Yes. You are correct. Actually, I am seriously thinking of reclaiming my grandparents` house in Srinagar. Legend has it that they were quite wealthy and left behind everything to move across to Pakistan. I will be buying my ticket on the Kashmir bus, shortly. The a//hole living in that house, better get ready..........I am coming to kick his ass and reclaim what is mine.........And I will be under the protection of a gora govt. passport.........

Do recall that about three or four years ago, I kept saying that it is a great time to invest in Gwadar. I said that under Musharraf, and Shaukut`s economic team, Pakistan`s economy was going to pick up. And Gwadar would be quite important. A lot of people laughed at me. They actually thought I was joking. Well, look now...........Everyone and their grandparent is investing in Gwadar.......

``Have you reflected how many Pakistanis curse their military on Chowk? I dont think I have come across any Indian in Chowk curse the Indian military...``

This is partly true and partly not. The second part about the Indian military is true. The first part about the Pakistani military is not true. You need to disregard opinions on Chowk and not consider them as a correct source of what Pakistanis think. Chowk is a tiny little privelaged crowd, which is far more Westernized and far wealthier than the average Pakistani. It is like using Beverly Hills to gauge what a person in rural Mississippi thinks.....

According to a survery carried out through Davos, in the whole world, the four most respected militaries, amongst their citizens (in no particular order) are India, Israel, USA and Pakistan. Yes, Pakistan.

There is only one group of individuals in the Pakistan military who is unpopular. And they are the Generals in the Army. About 125 of them. Out of a military of 600,000. You can go through any Pakistani magazine, newspaper etc., no one ever criticizes any of the soldiers. Not a single political party ever criticizes them. Try to find any statement from Benazir, Nawaz, Qazi Hussain etc.....

They (the soldiers, not the Generals) are, in fact, highly respected amongst the middle and lower middle class of Pakistan. Though the upper class (Chowk crowd) looks down upon them. I can say this through personal experience. I used to get a lot more respect as a Captain than as an expatriate, when I talked to taxiwallahs, shopkeepers etc. The reason is that the taxiwallahs and waiters and farmers and clerks, themselves, have kids in the military. While they have nothing in common with the Chowk crowd. They actually consider all of us wealthy Chowk crowd as not one of, ``them.``

The Air Force and Navy generals are respected, as well. Since they never participate in Martial Laws, including this one. Even though they are asked. In fact, the real problem in the Pakistani military are the Army Generals.......You will rarely, if ever see, any Air Force or Navy general saying anything stupid, or trying to get into the limelight.......They (most of them) behave like the Indian generals and stay in the background.

#11 by jang

There was not a single demonstration against emergency in India for the duration of the emergency. JP was arrested within the first days of emergency. He and other leaders never launched any protest against the emergency. We know morar Ji desie`s hobby in Jail.(At least that launched a global following of the p-drinkers)The emergency was lifted not under public pressure but on Mrs. Gandhi’s assessment that she could win elections.
So please don’t defend the un-defendable!

#9 by shankar
“Man...you have absolutely no clue about Indians”

No! I don’t! Indian have fallen from the sky and are different than the rest of the people in the world. They are a different specie and a superior race. They also have funny tails.
One can`t do anything about the delusional Indians!

Mrs. Gandhi was not defeated because of emergency. She was defeated because of the family planning campaign. She got right back in power within three years. If Indians hated emergency so much, they would not have voted her back in power!

you have a choice. you can either listen to a third rate loser writing for a third rate website. or you can listen to mohsin hamid:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0%2C13675%2C501040830-686105%2C00.html

``...Today, Pakistan is in much better shape. The economy is on a surer footing, peace talks with India are under way, and every week seems to bring news of another group of terrorists being captured or killed. Indeed, not since the end of the 1980s, when democracy was restored to Pakistan after the dark years of General Zia ul-Haq`s dictatorship, can I remember feeling so hopeful about Pakistan`s future. Progress is taking place throughout society. Colleges and universities are opening at a record rate; and tens of thousands of primary school teachers are being hired. More than a dozen new private television channels and radio stations are beaming lively political debate, frequently risqué lifestyle and fashion programs, and an exploding local music scene into homes across the country. Foreign companies are investing hundreds of millions of dollars to pursue the opportunities of a market that in population terms is the world`s sixth largest.

as for the situation in baluchistan, here is what the locals think, again according to m.h:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0%2C13675%2C501040830-686105%2C00.html

``....I remember walking along the beach a few days earlier and seeing the shattered glass that marked the site of the recent car bombing. I ask Babu why, if the people of Gwadar are so happy about the project, someone targeted the Chinese. ``It was not one of us,`` he says. ``But outsiders sometimes come. Strange people from Afghanistan and Peshawar and Islamabad. They do not come for business. We do not know why they are here. But I know that we did not do this thing to the Chinese.``


_ _ -He invites me to his home for lunch, and I eat with the men of his family. I ask them about reports I have read that tribal leaders in Baluchistan are opposed to the development of Gwadar, because they fear it will only benefit non-Baluch outsiders. They admit that this is true for some of the inland Baluch tribes, but not for the people of Gwadar itself.``

HP you are wrong, there were plenty protest during emergency and a large number of leaders went to jail as a result (most notable jaiprakash narain). Where you are right is that the press was muzzled very successfully.

Foujis in India are an unknown, i.e. for most folks they are invisible. So, its not clear if people will distribute sweets in the street if Faujis take over, e.g. Laloo is more powerful than Faujis in bihar, and no general can stand against Thakray.

Romair,

Great time for you to invest in Gilgit.

Re: # 6

Indira Gandhi was SOUNDLY beaten for her treachery of Emergency by the COMMON Indian.. & gave up power peacefully.. Would that ever happen in Pakistan?

BJP was SOUNDLY beaten for their neglecting the poor by COMMON Indians...& gave up power peacefully..Would that happen in Pakistan?

Have you reflected how many Pakistanis curse their military on Chowk? I dont think I have come across any Indian in Chowk curse the Indian military...no matter how much & how often Indian politicians are criticised & cursed....the military is respected...

You know why? because the COMMON Indian respects the Indian military. The military have never taken over power & looted the country, unlike Pakistan.

{{I can promise you that if the Indian army takes over in India now, a whole bunch of people would be distributing sweets on the streets of all major Indian cities. There will be no opposition to the army immediately.}}

Man...you have absolutely no clue about Indians

Being enlightened and being moderate are relative terms. Depends on what one compares them to...........I think a fair comparison would be with the history of the country itself. And not with Western countries, etc.......

Pakistan is, at the moment, more enlightened and more moderate than it has been in the last 25 years. And Pakistan`s economy is now rising faster than it has ever risen in my whole life. And this is a genuine indigenous rise. Not one funded by aid, or solely by remittances. The financial institutes of Pakistan have been completely restructured. And the economy is growing at the rates not seen since the heydays of 60s. This has been recognized by all critics of Pakistan..........

The easiest way to moderation and enlightenment is through a good economy.

The militant mullah has been completely defanged in Pakistan. Compare that to five years ago, when he ruled the country. The political mullah is no longer thinking of Shariah bills, like he was under the Nawaz Govt.

Issues like honor killing etc. are now critiqued daily on national TV and have the headlines. They never had that before. To the point that the feudals and their political parties, under whose jurisdiction all these honor killings occur are now, themselves, to save face, suggesting bills against it.

Women are now politically more empowered in Pakistan than at any time in its history. There are more women in Pakistan`s elected institutions than in most (perhaps nearly all) countries of the world. In fact, at the local level, there are more reserved seats for women than there are female candidates.

The minorities are now, more constitutionally empowered than the majority. They get their own candiadates and they can vote in the normal elections.

The press is far freer than at anytime in my life. If the true criteria of Democracy is that someone can stand in the Town Square and call the ruler a buffoon, then I think Pakistan qualifies for this many times over, now. The critics of Musharraf and his team have, themselves, gone hoarse publicly criticising him. Bhutto, Benazir, Zia and Nawaz never allowed this.

There are more radio and TV stations in Pakistan now than one could have ever imagined. Pakistani rock bands, are easily the best in South Asia. And the TV channel discusssions are better than any I have seen on any other TV show.

Now all Pakistan needs, in my opinion, is at least a decade of 7% growth. Pakistan`s poverty rate was at its historical low of around 18-20% in 1990. Through the lost decade of 90s, it rose to 33%. With over 6% growth over the next ten years, it will come down to around 18%, according to Ishrat Hussain.

A lot more needs to be done. Obvioulsy. But do keep in mind that Pakistan was just about to go under a Shariah law by the end of NS days. Only the Senate needed to approve it, which it would have. And Pakistan`s economy was at 3%+ growth rates. Not 7%+ growth rates. And journalists like Sethi were being kidnapped from their own bedrooms by the govt.

That`s not bad for five years progress. Then again, one can always be a cynic........

Re: # 6
What middle class?
Define it please!
The middle class has but one objective; to become the upper middle class.
The Upper middle class has but one objective; To join ranks with Joneses.
The Lower middle class has but one objective; To survive under the illusion of Safed Poshi or tight fisted respectability.
The poor have many objectives: Adequate Nutrition, Clothing, Shelter, medicine, education, protection from the collective middle class, the elite and the army.
The poor has the most to gain
The poor have the most to lose through inaction
The middle class has no interest in improving the living conditions of the poor, that is a fact because the resources are scarce.
If anyone can improve the situation of the poor, it is they themselves who must do it.
Revolutions demand the uprising of the poor, the lower most strata of a society.
They have to rise up and demand these basic rights.

#4 by yahyajamil
Yahya,
“Unless the common man stands up against all this, you, me and thousands of others who can only write will continue to lament.”

Is there any example that you can quote from all over the world when common folks stood up against any government, tyranny, or any state? It is always the middleclass, the educated class which fights for changes because they have interest in the country and the society. The ``common man`` is a dumb peasant or a rickshaw puller who has no interest with democracy or any thing like that.

The changes on the top in the whole world are initiated by the middle and the upper classes. The “common man” only votes in the Indian type of democracy. In the western democracies, common folks just secure some social rights thru votes. The “Common man” still does not influence the policy. If there is going to be any change in Pakistan that will come thru the middleclass efforts.

“why doesn`t he (Army Chief) take over the reins of the Govt when things are so bad, poverty, corruption etc etc. The Indian Army Chief is quoted as saying that `dil to mera bhi karta hai, magar in se (pointing towards the people i.e the common man) dar lagta hai. yeh ek din bhi nahin chorain ge mujhe`. “

This reply did not show any strength of people. If you won’t mind my saying that the Indian general saw a stupid question and came back with a stock answer.
In 1975, Mrs. Gandhi imposed emergency in India. Press was gagged, political parties were muzzled, opposition leaders were put in Jail, and there was not a single protest in India against all that.
The Indian “common man” that the army general referred to remained busy in his fields, factories and in most cases welcomed the emergency as it made some government departments function smoothly.

I can promise you that if the Indian army takes over in India now, a whole bunch of people would be distributing sweets on the streets of all major Indian cities. There will be no opposition to the army immediately.

The commies first developed this “common man” story and it is now being used by the every regime that usurps power illegally. The purpose of invoking the “common man” is to imply that unless the “common man” stands up against them they will continue to control the country illegally. They know it fully well that the mystery “common man” would never rise up against them or any govt.

Re: # 3 kaura
//...Don`t underestimate the lalas and Bahmans in Delhi. They know Musharaf....//

Do they? I doubt it. Freaks sitting in Delhi are stupid beyond description. Otherwise they wouldn`t have offered visa-free travel to jihadis, I mean pakis.

Which other country in whole wide world allows pakis to get in without a full cavity-check? And here - the mofos are letting them get in with no visa and no passport? Already there have been reports about Jihadi attack on Wipro, etc. There have been reports about pakis on cricket-visa disappearing into thin air.

I am going to make a prediction - in next one year, there will be huge jihadi attack in India, in scale of 9/11. Anybody willing to bet?