Mr. Musharraf`s ``elingtenment`` came from a word ``Illumination``. Which is used by the eiltes of power known as ``Illuminati``

He`s simply a dumb pawn in a much more complicated ``grand chess board``.

I am completely with Musharraf on this one. The establishment has never before met Pakistan`s problems head on. There is always chaos before order, and this is that chaos. Enlightened moderation isnt a term to be applied everywhere. It`s a concept coined to make the world think better of us. There are some supreme extremists in Pakistan, but they are not just the Islamists, the seculars are extremist too. How can you make such sweeping statements? No, Mushy is right, and it`s showing with Gawadar (to say the least).

#65 by omar_r_quraishi

[no it doesnt you VHP/RSS/Bajrang Dal-loving moron -- what it means is if he is so dying to see whether dawn or other pakistani papers wrote anything on this then he should make the effort to at least first see the papers himself instead of asking other people for links.]

There goes Mullah Omar again!! You have wasted one more interact without actually answering echo. Why don’t you just fess up instead of beating around the bush? That will make life easier for you.

shri harry potter jee: ``Mullah Omar, you could have used this post to provide the link echo was asking for. The fact that you didn`t proves that Dawn didn`t carry that news item.``

no it doesnt you VHP/RSS/Bajrang Dal-loving moron -- what it means is if he is so dying to see whether dawn or other pakistani papers wrote anything on this then he should make the effort to at least first see the papers himself instead of asking other people for links

nhk saab, thanks but please try and get my name right -- its Omar R. Quraishi

Nighat

You are right.

Musharraf`s Government has chickened out and gotten under the Mulla blackmail to insert religion column in Passport. Next they will be clamouring about the Agha Khan board.

Omar R Quereshi

That was a good and a timely editorial in Dawn today on the subject.

nhk

#61 by omar_r_quraishi

[echo boom r u for real ???]

Mullah Omar, you could have used this post to provide the link echo was asking for. The fact that you didn`t proves that Dawn didn`t carry that news item.

and this is what leaders who cherish honour, dignity, and self-respect do. They value their own language, their own culture, their own religion, and above all their own people over any other

But then there are our Ba Ba Blacksheep bleating in chorus thus:

B for Blair, B for Bush ; dovaan neiN mairee sarkaar
Nothing else do I need now; Ikko ``B`` minoo Darkaar

---

echo boom r u for real ???

#59:
It is your paper O bhUngee. If I am claiming I did not see it or couldn`t find that news item is it not your duty to print it here to convince me rather than hemming & hawing.

Does anyone know the reason why this news was not reported by any other major newspaper in Pakistan?

Omar Qureishi? Any job-losing, yet ba-zameer, answer?

a href=``http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-3-2005_pg1_3``

Musharraf’s Bahawalpur rally: 2 killed in stampede

Omar:52
Pakistan Times reported the event but NOT the incident. Did `Dawn`` report in a similar
manner ?

Again, please redeem yourself by giving link which specifically highlghts the news which reports the STAMPEDE , people killed, and the police brutalities to keep the crowd in by force to listen to the Moose whos goose is now cooked.

err echoboom -- u surely can read english cant u -- i clearly said the pakistani press including DAWN reported the figures -- as for my redemption in front of you or anyone else on chowk i think i can pass since i have better things to do than to provide links -- in any case given your dexterity with scouring the south asian press, i am quite surprised that you missed these reports -- also if you know how to use dawn`s website or even google, it shouldnt be too much of a problem finding the reports that i am talking about --

shri arjun jee

---

> jai ram jee kee arjun jee, jai ram jee ke :)

AoA!

The writer talks about doing cost-benefit analysis of the current messianic tenure.
Here underneath I post one part of it.

Then, to the interlocutors who demanded a counter list of invisible positive features of the democratic dispensation before putting up one such list for the moderate enlightenment, I would like to say:

Dear brothers, we all already know very well the real worth of civilians in general and politicians in particular. This lesson has been forced into both our conscious and sub-conscious for last 40 years through our 9 holes. Its time to put the record straight vis a vis generals.

Exactly like Saddam Hussein vs. USA. We know that Saddam Hussein always had his torture cells. What the USA never admitted before nor want to confess now is that even the U.S. too have its many Abu Ghraibs, custodial deaths etc.

Can you see the difference? Are you getting my point? Those sitting on high pedestals must come up with a slightly better standard.

Please, make up your mind … are we comparing thieves with thieves, kuttas with kuttas (politicians vs. generals) OR is it a match between robbers and saints.
If both are equal than there is nothing to argue about … but please, don’t claim sainthood while pimping. Ok!!??

Musharraf’s 41 foreign visits until 2004 cost over Rs 658m
By Ansar Abbasi
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2005-daily/22-03-2005/metro/i8.htm

ISLAMABAD: President Gen Musharraf has undertaken 41 official visits abroad, touring at least 71 countries since June 2000 till December 2004. This has cost taxpayers more than Rs 658 million.
According to information available with the Foreign Ministry, expectedly, the United States has been the most toured country by the president — Musharraf visited the country nine times during four-and-a-half years. However, there are no details available with regard to the purpose of these visits or objectives achieved.
The information shows that during the last seven months of the year 2000, Musharraf proceeded on six foreign visits, including seven countries. The break-up: Iran and Oman from June 9-12 with a 20-member entourage, costing the national exchequer Rs 6.2m; Saudi Arabia from June 17-19 with an eight-member entourage costing Rs 0.54m; US from September 9-14 with a 23-member party costing Rs 12m; Kazakhstan from November 6-7 with a 20-member entourage costing Rs 6.1m; Qatar from November 11-24 with a 26-member delegation costing Rs 3.3m; United Arab Emirates on December 11 with a seven-member entourage costing Rs 0.4m.
In 2001, Musharraf made eight foreign trips, including 13 countries. The break-up: Jordan, Syria and Lebanon from January 7-10 with a 23-member entourage costing Rs 8.1m; Egypt from February 24-26 with a 24-member party, costing Rs 8.2m; Saudi Arabia from February 28 to March 7 with a 22-member outfit, costing Rs 8.2m; Myanmar and Hanoi from May 1-5 with a 2- member delegation, costing Rs 10.3m; India from July 14-16, with a 31-member entourage, costing Rs 8.5m; US for the UN Summit from September 19-28 with a 25-member entourage (expenditure not shown); United Kingdom, US/France from November 7-12 with a 22-member entourage costing Rs 45m; and visit to China from December 20-24 with 29- member party costing Rs 13.1m.
In 2002, the president paid 12 official visits covering 18 world capitals. These include Nepal from January 3-4 with a 21-member entourage costing the public kitty Rs 35.6m; US from February 9-14 with a 32-member outfit, costing Rs 19.3m; Japan from March 12-15 with a 26-member entourage, costing Rs 25.8m; Afghanistan on April 2 with 26-member delegation costing Rs 34,189; Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco from May 15-21 with a 26-member party (expenditure not shown); Tajikistan and Kazakhstan from June 2-5 with a 3-member delegation, costing Rs 14.2m; UAE and Saudi Arabia from June 10-12 with a 26-member outfit costing Rs 8.6m; Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and China from July 29 to August 2 with a 31- member entourage, costing Rs 26.3m; US from November7-18 with a 21- member party, costing Rs 43.2m; Turkey from October 13-15 with a 20- member delegation, costing Rs 9.7m; Saudi Arabia from October 29-30 with a 22-member outfit, costing Rs 7.8m; and Turkmenistan from December 26-27 with a seven-member delegation (expenditure not shown).
In 2003, Musharraf undertook eight official foreign visits including 15 countries. The break-up: Russian Federation (Moscow) from February 4-6 with a 26-member entourage, costing Rs 21.1m; Malaysia from February20-25 with a 32-member entourage costing Rs 22.7m; Saudi Arabia from June 11-13 with a 23-member party, costing Rs 7.4m; the US, the UK, Germany and France from June 17 to July 4 with 33 members, costing Rs 17.2m; Tunisia, Algeria and Rabat from July 14-19 with 28 members, costing Rs 28.3m; the US and Canada from September 20-25 with 28 members, costing Rs 38.4m; Malaysia to attend OIC Summit from October15-19 with 47 members, costing Rs 33.4m; and China and Korea from November 1-7 with 35 members (expenditure not shown).
Last year, Musharraf proceeded on seven official visits, including 19 countries. The break-up: Turkey and Switzerland from January 19-24 with a 42-member entourage, costing Rs 29.2m; Saudi Arabia from March 6-7with a 33-member party, costing Rs 12.8m; Sweden, Finland, Azerbaijan and Turkey from July 4-12 with a 38-member entourage, costing Rs 31m; US, The Netherlands and Italy from September 19-30 with a 41-member entourage costing Rs 60.7m; UAE on November 3 with a 23- member party costing Rs 5.1m; Afghanistan on November 6 with a 30- member outfit, costing Rs 35,272; and Morocco, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, the UK, France and the US from November 26 to December 9 with a 48- member entourage, costing Rs 30.7m.

shiv sena homos
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I50341-2005Mar19

is that you arjun??

Re: # 53
you`re so right omar. mind you, notice how when shri hashish and his spineless cohort shri arjun bash pakistan for `71 in response to gujrat, they are quick to shift blame, but never themselves deny or regret what happened in gujrat as a horror unparalled in recent human history. their RSS brothers, who borrow nazi ideology and are unabashedly proud of it, are no less half men then they are themselves. its a waste of time to argue with fundos like themselves. and yes, shri arjun, as i said, we`ll see who`s on the end of a leash when the time comes.

damn....echoboom is my wingman against mullah omar...

it IS a bizzaro world....

Omar:52
Pakistan Times reported the event but NOT the incident. Did `Dawn`` report in a similar
manner ?

Again, please redeem yourself by giving link which specifically highlghts the news which reports the STAMPEDE , people killed, and the police brutalities to keep the crowd in by force to listen to the Moose whos goose is now cooked.

Do you have any Zameer to do something that`ll cost you your ``feeling-foreignish`` job?

and shri harry potter and shri arjun jee -- thanks for reminding me just how much a waste of time interacting on chowk can be with its dominant RSS/BJP/VHP brigade -- and how one should minimize such time --

and oh btw sorry that your idol modi ka visa refuse ho gya -- i suppose he wont be able to meet you all at -- what was it, the indian american hotels association right --

:)

hahah expect shri harish jee and shri arjun jee to immediately stoop to their real levels -- and echoboom (urf lunatic) -- this was reported in ALL major newspapers, including Dawn --other than nawai waqt and ummat i wonder if you read anything else -- never get into a debate unless you know what you`re talking about echo

in any case what I am trying to say is that it is the claim of one of the involved parties -- the govt is giving no figures or underplaying the damage -- one side is overplaying -- the real figures no one really knows, or at least an INDEPENDENT account of the casualties and deaths is not known -- wonder if you know what that means shri arjun jee and shri harry potter jee -- amanaullah kanrani is secy general of the JWP whose chief is akbar bugti -- shri arjun jee this is what happens when your whole life revolves around cut and paste and you have no idea of what you`re quoting --

#50 by taqat-e-parvaaz

[you`re ape race feels no remorse or sentiment, thereby leading to the butcher of innocents where pregnant mothers are ripped open and inscribed with the filthy words `OM`.]

You`re perhaps forgetting the fact that your race perpetrated the most horrific genocide history has ever witnessed, perhaps second only to the Nazi Holocaust. At least the Nazis didn`t rape the Jewish women they eventually slaughtered, the way your fathers and uncles did in B`desh when they were literally caught with their pants down by the Indian Army. And here you are ponitificating us on the riots in Gujarat. Man, your standards are hard to beat, you should be talking to the skinheads, who will better understand you.

[ i`d take a cavity search any day....]

So a cavity search it is for you.

Re: # 49
perhaps, but then again, i`m a warm blooded human. you`re ape race feels no remorse or sentiment, thereby leading to the butcher of innocents where pregnant mothers are ripped open and inscribed with the filthy words `OM`. i`d take a cavity search any day....

#47 by taqat-e-parvaaz

[we`ll see who`s on the end of a leash when the time comes. vegetable samosa, you bhindian? hahaha....]

Looks like the repeated cavity searches have driven you insane.

well lookie here...

guess this will be accepted as good journalistic practice...

Dera Bugti calm but tense: DAWN

A large number of injured people were admitted to hospitals in Quetta, Rahim Yar Khan and Multan. ``Around 60 tribesmen, including women and children, were killed in the FC attack,`` Senator Amanullah Kanrani claimed while speaking at a press conference on Friday.

Balochistan imbroglio : DAWN

It is so easy for the government to blame the Sardar for the mess. In the public mind it appears as if Akbar Bugti is the chief `problem` and once he is out of the way, things will be hunky-dory. In fact, the real problem is the lack of democracy. The denial of a sense of participation to the people of Balochistan lies at the heart of the matter. Since the people of Balochistan exercise no control over their resources, they are upset.

Re: # 41
we`ll see who`s on the end of a leash when the time comes. vegetable samosa, you bhindian? hahaha....

The noose around the moose is getting tighter

Does anyone know the reason why this news was not reported by any other major newspaper in Pakistan?

Omar Qureishi? Any job-losing, yet ba-zameer, answer?

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-3-2005_pg1_3

Musharraf’s Bahawalpur rally: 2 killed in stampede

MULTAN: Two children were killed and 20 people including policemen were
injured after a stampede at a public meeting addressed by President
Musharraf in Bahawalpur on Friday.

Witnesses said nazims took thousands of people to the stadium at 8am to attend
the president’s address. The people were stopped from taking food and
water while no arrangements for water were made inside. The address was
due at 10am, but started at 3pm. The people had tried to leave the
stadium earlier, but they were not allowed to do so. After the speech
ended, the people tried getting out of the stadium and police pushed
them back in

#43 by arjun_m

LOL! Let`s see what Mullah Omar has to say on this one.

#42 by omar_r_quraishi on March 20, 2005 7:10pm PT


in the beginning of the said story, the two writers say they have learnt that the death toll is now 60 and then they quote akbar bugti
so it isnt very good journalistic practice to quote him on the death toll --


no kidding mullah omar......

If you pakis can use geelani`s statements about the ``killings of civilians`` in Kashmir, why can`t the world use the words of akbar bugti? Why is ok for muslims to use the words of involved parties to claim genocide but then turn around and deny the real genocide when it`s done by muslims...like saddam in iraq and the paki army in 71?

tell us again about the journalistic practices in paki papers..especially when they report on ``Indian atrocities`` in Kashmir...

sauce for the goose and all that, you know....

arjun_m -- a malicious man if i ever saw one whose single point of obsessive hate -- Pakistan -- seems to be the sole reason of his living

shri arjun jee the independent story you quoted has akbar bugti saying that 60 people were killed -- in the beginning of the said story, the two writers say they have learnt that the death toll is now 60 and then they quote akbar bugti -- shri arjun jee, you should know, or perhaps not i suppose, that mr bugti is very much part of this conflict, for the right or the wrong reasons is not the point here, so it isnt very good journalistic practice to quote him on the death toll --

#40 by taqat-e-parvaaz on March 20, 2005 4:29pm PT

shouldn`t you be at the end of trailer park Lynndie`s leash or something?

Re: # 33

you would say that to a retarded kid who said something against pakistan. arent you supposed to be at an RSS rally or something??

Zakk #38: As I said, the feudals and the military (at least the pre-90s military), the businessmen leaders, are intermarried. They formed one group. The meshed in with each other. The only group outside this has been the maulvis and the middle class. The only general who has remained outside this is Musharraf (perhaps because he is a Muhajir, and thus not interconnected into the power family structure of Sind and Punjab. The guy who was supposed to become the COAS was Ali Kuli Khattak. He is the son of the politically powerful Khattak, Ayub and Saifullah families. Which are furthur married into Chaudhry Shujaat`s, Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Bilour and other families. It is one big family enterprise, ruling the country from every direction.......

The feudals` power can be recognized by the fact that they fill the assemblies. I don`t know how else to look at it. It 60 - 66% of every elected assembly is feudal, then what does that mean? It doesn`t matter whether they are big feudals or small ones. What matters is that whose interests do they represent. Do they represent the interests of the peasant? Or do they represent the interests of the landowners?

It is not necessary for the largest landowner to be the most powerful politician. He could just be a member of a party, that has the most capable political feudal as its head. Like the Bhuttos of PPP.

You are correct about the Nawab families of pre-Bhutto days. I agree with that. I did highlight that. However, after Bhutto broke down the door, it is actual landowning families which have dominated politics. They are backbone of the major political parties.

This will slowly change. But very very slowly. Once again look at the percentages of elected members of assemblies. It has to fall to indicate that it is changing. The fact that maulvis have taken so many seats now, means it is changing. The maulvis have more of a peasant following. They have put farmers and mosque mullahs (the lower class) into assemblies.

But the best way is through a non-maulvi middle-class party. Which one cannot see on the horizon. MQM and TI are two. But they are not going anywhere. What else is there. Nawaz Sharif`s father was from the middle class (lower class actually). But Nawaz Sharif is one of hte wealthiest men in Pakistan. And his party is not an urban middle-class party, either.

Omair: Their is a significant difference between a feudal mentality and being a rural or industrial feudal.

As we have argued the subject before I shall be brief..

* The Bhuttos were never a major land owning family of Sind

* Nawaz Sharif was of a Middle Class family

* Almost all of the Bengali PM`s even if they were Nawabs were not land lords in the West pakistni sense, because of land reforms introduced in the 50`s Landlordism was not a fact in politicians from East Pakistan.

* The problem is that the ruling establishment allies itself with small power groups which are easy to control. Jamali, Junejo and most of the PM`s of the 1950`s (except Nazimuddn and Suhrawardy) fit under that powerless category..Sardar Mengal gave an excellent example of that when he said (responding to the charge that he is using Punjabis to cover him his defense of the feudal system) that whereas 3 Sardars were against the Federal govt (Mengal, Marri, Bugti) the remaining 20+ Sardars were all with the government.

If the system ever allowed a natural evolution to occur and stopped interfering you would have seen the growth of a stronger Pakistani Middle class and not one created by fraud and patronage.

Nighat I think you`ve got it ulta. It`s not enlightened moderation that Mush is propounding, it`s moderate enlightenment.

One more example of Enlightened Moderation. Hurrah.
Must be a new style of a new generation of rally holders. Shame.

Musharraf’s Bahawalpur rally: 2 killed in stampede
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-3-2005_pg1_3

MULTAN: Two children were killed and 20 people including policemen were injured after a stampede at a public meeting addressed by President Musharraf in Bahawalpur on Friday.

Witnesses said nazims took thousands of people to the stadium at 8am to attend the president’s address. The people were stopped from taking food and water while no arrangements for water were made inside. The address was due at 10am, but started at 3pm. The people had tried to leave the stadium earlier, but they were not allowed to do so. After the speech ended, the people tried getting out of the stadium and police pushed them back in. They (people) got agitated and broke the stadium’s wall and gate and stoned the police. Resultantly, a boy was killed while another died in hospital and 20 people got injured including DSP Rehmatullah. staff report

Iraq`s Jaafari aims for Sharia rule

IRAQ`S

frontrunning Shiite candidate for prime minister, Ibrahim Jaafari, said
in an interview he aimed to introduce sharia Islamic law and federalism
and confirmed Saddam Hussein would be judged by the end of the year.
``It`s understandable in a country where the majority of people are
Muslim,`` Mr Jaafari said of the Sharia law, in an interview conducted
in Baghdad due to appear in Tuesday`s edition of German magazine Der Spiegel.

``Iraq should become a Muslim country but without falling under the influence of Iran or Saudi Arabia,`` he said.
``Everyone will have the same rights, even members of the many minor
religious communities,`` he said, explaining there would be multiple
forms of jurisprudence.
He also said women would be under no legal obligation to wear a veil.
``They will make their own decisions,`` the Shiite candidate said.
According to results of a poll released yesterday, most Iraqis are
deeply attached to their Islamic identity but do not want a strict
application of sharia law, as in neighbouring Saudi Arabia or Iran.
About 48 per cent of those interviewed agreed that ``religion has a
special role to play in the government``, while 46 per cent supported a
separation of state and mosque.
The poll was based on some 2000 interviews covering 15 of 18 provinces
by an Iraqi firm employed by the right-wing US International Republican
Institute.
Mr Jaafari also had calming words for the Kurdish community, mainly based in the country`s north.
``I`m for a federal Iraqi state,`` he explained.
Mr Jaafari is head of the Islamic party Dawa, which is part of a Shiite
alliance holding a majority of 146 from a possible 275 seats from the
general election.
The alliance is in talks with Kurds, whose two main parties won 75
seats, over the formation of an executive within the next two weeks.
Mr Jaafari said the Shiite alliance would do everything to encourage
the Sunni community to work with them on a new constitution.
Another major question facing Iraq is the fate of the former dictator.
``The Saddam Hussein case will be closed before year`s end,`` he confirmed.

Dear Yasmeen,

Very well said.

Hopefully, someone conscientious will take a step by becoming sensitive to their own follies. I think if everybody did her /his part in our communities, acting responsibly, we all could spend the same time enjoying a sense of purity of conscience, but.. people think very narrow.

Thanks for bringing this up in such a way.

-Saira

#32 by malik.m.imran on March 19, 2005 1:18pm PT

very well stated...logical, articulate and to the point...

Ref: HisExcellency

“His only flaw is that he is not a democratically elected politician. But this flaw is actually his greatest strength. After playing musical chairs with politicians for 12 years, the people of Pakistan are fed up with the bhuttos, sharifs, junejos, pagaras, altaf hussains and their ilk. Let their be a new generation of politicians. Then we`ll talk of democracy.”

Please, read your reply once again and then kindly try to enlighten us a little bit about “the new generation of politicians” you are alluding to. I sincerely hope you really don’t mean the “new” Q-wrapping of Shujaat Hussain, Faisal Saleh Hayat, Sherpao, and so many, many more.

Should I make your job even easier: which corrupt minister of the previous administration(s) is not with your general today?

And then wait; let Musharraf ziaed, these Chinese locomotives, shabby PIA deals, NHA accounts - all exclusively handled by your honest generals, reporting directly to Musharraf - will soon explode in your face. People – I mean not deaf, blind and dead people like some of interactors over here - will be marvelled to learn the magnitude of plunder done by these honest non-political fauji generals.

Ref: faisaluno
How do you define a loser?
I assume in your world: The one who notices something wrong going on, dislikes it, points it out, write about it, condemn it? Right!?
Nighat has pointed out 25 points, which one is wrong? And perhaps more importantly which sin of hers makes her loser?
Then dear beta can we trust the judgment of a moron who regularly comes to a third class loser site to read third class loser writers giving his first-class winner gratis opinion? Would you grade such an individual a winner?

Finally, I can overlook if one comes through the backdoor. If there is a way to kick him/her out through the front door through non-violent means. Or put it like this, if that backdoor burglar is willing to leave the house one day. Is such an option one available today? As before, there will be first 2002, then 2007, then 2012 and ultimately littars (shoes) if not mango crates.

It is all about traditions, precedents set by the rulers and the signals they send downwards. Nations go forward, develop and make progress because of its institutional strength and rule of the law. Nothing more, nothing less.

Military setups, no matter how good, benevolent they are or how good for the time being growth rate is, ultimately it will end up as it has always done. The economical boom during Ayub led to dismembering of the country, Zia’s 6 % growth mutilated us religiously, socially and need not to mention politically.

The current superficial boom in some aspects will not be different in the absence of two most fundamental parameters – RULE OF THE LAW & JUSTICE. Take my words for it.

Addition to #29: Following is the list of Prime Ministers of Pakistan:

Liaquat Ali Khan (landowning family, though not from Pakistani areas. born in Haryana)
Khawaja Nazimuddin (Bengali Nawab family)
Muhammad Ali Bogra (Bengali Nawab family)
Chaudhry Muhammad Ali (Jullandhar - non-Nawab and non-landowner)
Huseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy (Bengali origin - non Nawab and non-landowner)
Ibrahim Ismail Chundrigar (don`t know)
Sir Feroz Khan Noon (Punjabi landowning family)

Martial Law...........

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto (Sindhi Landowning family)

Martial Law

Muhammad Khan Junejo (Sindhi landowning family)
Benazir Bhutto (Sindhi Landowning family)
Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi (Sindhi landowning family)
Nawaz Sharif (Punjabi business family)
Balakh Sher Mazari (Baluchi landowning tribal family)
Nawaz Sharif
Moin Qureshi (non-landowner)
Benazir Bhutto
Miraj Khalid (non-landowner Punjabi)
Nawaz Sharif

Martial Law

Zafarullah Khan Jamali - (Baluchi landowner)
Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain - (Punjabi son of a police constable)
Shaukat Aziz - Punjabi urbanite

The above should indicate two things. One that the Army has had a lot of influecne in who runs the country. Two the country`s elected houses have always elected a landowner to the top. Each and every time. The only non-landowners were specifically placed there by the Army. And out of those non-landowners only one (Nawaz Sharif) has been able to make any room for himself in Pakistan`s politics, even after the Army let go of him.......

Not a single maulvi has ever ruled Pakistan. Nor has any urbanite........barring the odd few who ruled in the early days, for a few months or so. Infact the only ones from middle-class urbanites who did rule, did so through Martial Law (Ayub, Zia and Musharraf).......From Bhutto onwards, it has been out and out landowners...........

Blast in Pakistan Kills 15, Injures 25

By NASEER KAKAR, Associated Press Writer

QUETTA, Pakistan - A powerful bomb exploded Saturday at a gathering of minority Shiite Muslims in a remote town in southwestern Pakistan, killing at least 15 people and wounding 25 others, police said.



Thousands of worshippers had congregated at the shrine of a Shiite saint near the town of Naseerabad, about 210 miles south of Quetta, when the bomb went off outside, said Merab Khan, a local police official.

It was not immediately known who was behind the blast. Police said they were investigating.

``Right now people are angry. They are wailing and crying. Some of them have blocked roads in the town and we are trying to control the situation,`` Khan told The Associated Press.

Khan said the bodies and injured, some in critical condition, were transported to a nearby hospital. He expected the death toll to rise.

Pakistan has a history of sectarian violence, mostly blamed on rival majority Sunni and minority Shiite extremist groups. About 80 percent of Pakistan`s 150 million people are Sunnis and 17 percent Shiites.

HP #22: ``Contrary to what you hear from Romair, Feudal in Pakistan are just fellow travelers of the army and bureaucracy. The Bhuttos were the only feudal family that made it to the top with lots of help from the army.``

Actually I have never said this. I have always stated that the feudals, beaurecracy and Army have generally worked together in ruling the country. Infact, I actually printed the whole family tree of Gohar Ayub and how it links the beaurecracy, Army, feudals and businessman politicians of ANP, PPP and PML into one family. They are all, literally realted to each other through marriages........

In fact, one of the points I have made is that the Army has never taken on the feudals. It has taken on everyone else, at some stage. But never the feudals. It has sidelined individual feudal politicians, but never taken them on as a group. Ayub and Zia`s off-springs actually joined the feudals. Uptil that point, the average powerful family in Pakistan, had one son owning the land, one in the beaurecracy, one in business and one in the Army. Even Musharraf, who has taken on the maulvis, has not taken on the feudals.

However, there is a change that has occured. The Army, no longer attracts wealthy people, as a profession. Sons of feudals and businessmen etc. rarely go into the Army now. It now has a very middle class and lower middle class officer base. Sons of taxi drivers, enlisted army men, people who own motrocycles and not cars. So a break is occuring.

In terms of politics, in a sense, Bhutto was the first feudal to brekthrough. You are correct. But since then, the feudals have owned the elected houses of Pakistan. Every elected National assembly, statistically has had between 60% to 66% feudal members. You can go ahead and check the statistics. That should indicate something. It is only now that maulvis have made some inroads.

But the middle class urban Pakistani has never had any voice in any elected house. The power of feudals in Pakistan, will decrease, as the country becomes urbanised. However, it seems to be decreasing far slower than in most other countries. Pakistan, still, probably has amongst the most landowning elected members in the world.

And if you start from Bhutto, the Prime Minsters (Benazir, Mazari, Junejo, Jamali) have all been landowners. The only exceptions have been people like Nawaz and Shaukut Aziz, both of whom were handpicked by the Army. And even they were elected as partymembers of PML, which has a strong base of landowners.

I cannot see any urbanite rising on his own merit, leading his own party, without the help of the Army (or anyone else) become the head of Pakistan. Look at the troubles Imran Khan is having. And look at the troubles Asghar Khan had........If you can name any non-maulvi and/or non-feudal urbanite leading a non-fedual party to the top of Pakistan, I am all ears.......

In Pakiland, when Pakis close their eyes, the sun sets....


Pakistan sets army on tribal protesters
By Justin Huggler and Shiv Malik in Baluchistan

19 March 2005

Pakistan is poised on the precipice of a tribal war in the vast desert province of Baluchistan after the army unleashed helicopter gunships and heavy weapons on local protesters. The Independent has learnt that during two days of violence, more than 60 tribespeople in the region, including women and children, have been killed. Reports suggest the confrontation is becoming increasingly brutal.

Balochistan train blasts kill two

QUETTA: At least two passengers of Quetta and Lahore bound Chiltan Express trains were killed and nine others wounded in two separate bomb explosions in the trains at Mach and Mushkaf areas of Balochistan on Friday.

Eight soldiers die in ambush

From correspondents in Quetta, Pakistan
March 19, 2005 EIGHT soldiers were killed and 23 wounded in a fierce battle with tribal militants in Pakistan`s troubled southwest, the military said today, while a tribal politician said dozens of tribesmen died.

Re: # 14

{{I am seriously thinking of reclaiming my grandparents` house in Srinagar. Legend has it that they were quite wealthy and left behind everything to move across to Pakistan. I will be buying my ticket on the Kashmir bus, shortly. The a//hole living in that house, better get ready..........I am coming to kick his ass and reclaim what is mine.........And I will be under the protection of a gora govt. passport......... }}

Goodluck with that..
Btw, when you bump into Santa Claus, tell him I said... ``hey! wassup!!``


{{Do recall that about three or four years ago, I kept saying that it is a great time to invest in Gwadar. I said that under Musharraf, and Shaukut`s economic team, Pakistan`s economy was going to pick up. And Gwadar would be quite important. A lot of people laughed at me. They actually thought I was joking. Well, look now...........Everyone and their grandparent is investing in Gwadar....... }}

Yeah Nostradamus! Thats exactly why you should invest in Gilgit. When the bus service opens, & Indian Kashmiri muslims see how utterly magnificent life in PoK is--they will refuse to go back (kinda like the beginning of the collapse of the Berlin Wall). Many of those refugees will have degrees... Dont you see the handwriting on the wall?! Azaaad Kashmir-the next Singapore!

Dont pose as a Canuk in Enslaved Kashmir yaar! Watch out...many of the apparent gora-looking tourists in enslaved Kashmir are Israelis!

Re: # 6
``Is there any example that you can quote from all over the world when common folks stood up against any government, tyranny, or any state? It is always the middleclass, the educated class which fights for changes because they have interest in the country and the society. The ``common man`` is a dumb peasant or a rickshaw puller who has no interest with democracy or any thing like that.``
HP,
Shore Sahib (#7) has made a point there.

``This reply did not show any strength of people. If you won’t mind my saying that the Indian general saw a stupid question and came back with a stock answer.``

The journalist was not stupid, he probably knew what the answer would be. The Indian Army Chief also knew that should he take over the reins, there would be no mass uprising. He wanted to make a point and the journalist wanted to make a point by quoting him. My point in narrating the incident was not what would actually take place, but to show that respect between institutions and the people is mutual. The argument that has developed on whether Indian Army can enter politics or not is needless and has little relevance to what is being discussed.

A few points regarding why we have reached a stage where we have to search for positives. Nations that need to build institutions do not put them through tests in infancy where their character and strength is tested before they have had time to build traditions in these spheres. We are all humans and susceptible to many pressures. As individuls we can only sustain that pressure if the institutions that we belong to have a tradition and record of withstanding these pressures. We should have by now built a reservoir of positive traditions for every institutions so that it could withstand pressures. On the contrary, we put virtually every institution through a test when that institutions had yet to build traditions of fair play and strength. Thus what emerged as a result of putting them through this trial became the norm. Had we nurtured role models of character, honour and strength in every institution we would have helped build these values in these institutions. If there were any role models they were all sacrificed to serve temporary interests.

#14 by Romair on March 18, 2005 7:47pm PT



Actually, I am seriously thinking of reclaiming my grandparents` house in Srinagar. Legend has it that they were quite wealthy and left behind everything to move across to Pakistan. I will be buying my ticket on the Kashmir bus, shortly. The a//hole living in that house, better get ready..........I am coming to kick his ass and reclaim what is mine.........And I will be under the protection of a gora govt. passport........


Yes..you should try that...The Indian army has some special treatment reserved for you..treatment that will make trailer park lynndie look like florence nightingale...

Funny how people who had to high tail it to canuckistan now claim they have a passport from that government....



Do recall that about three or four years ago,


you also said something about this...

When was the last time a democratically elected govt in Pakiland bombed paki civilians using helicopter gunships and artillery?


Pakistan sets army on tribal protesters
By Justin Huggler and Shiv Malik in Baluchistan

19 March 2005

Pakistan is poised on the precipice of a tribal war in the vast desert province of Baluchistan after the army unleashed helicopter gunships and heavy weapons on local protesters. The Independent has learnt that during two days of violence, more than 60 tribespeople in the region, including women and children, have been killed. Reports suggest the confrontation is becoming increasingly brutal.

Baluchistan covers almost half of Pakistan and is home to tribespeople who respect no central law. Outside the main cities, tribal rules apply and the region has traditionally been a no-go area for Pakistani police. Law and order is kept by tribal chiefs paid by the government to keep a semblance of control.

Tensions with Karachi spilled over into violence in January after Pakistani soldiers stationed in the area were accused of raping a local woman doctor. This, together with the attempted eviction of 30,000 tribespeople from the area containing Pakistan`s largest gas fields and the imminent opening of a new port in the province, has led to reprisals from local chiefs who accuse Karachi of decades of brutality and neglect.

Nawab Akbar Bugti, one of the tribal chiefs who has been leading local opposition to the government of Pervez Musharraf, says his people have been attacked without provocation.

``The situation was that the army opened up with uniform and concentrated fire with artillery and mortar directly at my house,`` he told The Independent. ``A mortar came through the roof and killed two people sitting to the left of me.``

Nawab Bugti says that in total 60 people were killed and more than 150 injured.

The Pakistani military countered by claiming that one of its convoys was attacked as it was passing through the town, killing eight soldiers.

The ripples of what has happened in Dera Bugti could spread much further. Though he is 78, Nawab Bugti commands the loyalty of more than 30,000 tribesmen, all of them heavily armed and prepared to fight and die for him. Bombs exploded on two trains in Baluchistan yesterday, killing two people and wounding eight, a sign that the violence is already spreading beyond Dera Bugti.

A recent siege of the Sui gas field by Baluch tribesmen incensed at the alleged rape, led to gas supplies to the rest of the country being cut off for more than a week. The military has now retaken Sui, about 45 minutes by car from Dera Bugti, and is said to have a considerable force based there.

Many fear that the impoverished tribespeople will now face a brutal military offensive similar to that which Pakistan unleashed on restive tribesmen in the 1970s but updated with lethal modern weaponry.

President Musharraf threatened as much after the Sui siege when he said: ``Don`t push us. It isn`t the 1970s when you can hit and run and hide in the mountains. This time you won`t even know what hit you.``

But the Baluch are talking tough too. ``An uprising would be more fierce and more strong than it was in 1973,`` the secretay-general of the Jamhoori Watan Party, Shahid Baloch toldThe Independent. ``The general said the Baluch insurgents would not know what hit them because it`s not the 70s. Yes, we know it`s not the 70s, but it doesn`t go for us only. It goes for both of the parties.``

The anger does not stem from a single act of rape. There was a series of bombings last year. The rape was a catalyst, but the anger has more to do with the huge new port Pakistan is constructing at Gwadar on the coast - and the fact that the tribesmen see Baluchistan not as a province of Pakistan, but as their homeland.

They fear the authorities will bring in millions of ethnic outsiders from the overcrowded cities of Punjab province to live and work in Gwadar, changing the demographics of Baluchistan forever.

``After passing through years of bitter experiences we feel that Gwadar will be a death warrant,`` said Mr Baloch. ``Once we are turned into a minority what`s left for us? I`d put it this way: the white man started developing the great American plains and removing the red Indians in the name of development Now in the 21st century our Pakistani rulers are trying to apply the same formula``.

There is also seething resentment that Baluch towns remain primitive places, not even connected to the gas from their own land, neglected by the Pakistani authorities, while they pump it into Gwadar.

Musharraf is a hypocritical opportunist. He is a typical general of the Pakistan Army who holds the interest of the Army above that of the country. He talks of ``enlightened moderation`` to please his bosses in Washington while at home he enters into an alliance with the Mullahs who want to take the world back to the deserts of 6th century Arabia.

Amit,

Gandhi certainly brought the politics and independent movement to the “common man” in Indian cities only. Before the partition only about 15% of the Indian population lived in cities and all that Bandh and Hartal stuff had no impact on the rural India, which constituted about 85% of the Indian population then. That number now stands at about 70% and still a numerical majority that has very little influence over the policy and other affairs in India. In India or for that matter in Pakistani or bangle deshi or all third world countries with a majority of rural population, the majority is brought to vote only. It has no influence over any policy in the country. That is why I debunk the ``common man`` arguement.

Gandhi never extended the political awareness to Indian villages. Indian peasant and Indian villages were silent spectators in the whole freedom struggle. Their role in Indian political society has not changed much since.

Your idea of land reforms in Pakistan does have some validity but it is not the one single important factor. Let me first bring up the Indian land reforms. The land reforms in India only begun to take shape in the 1960s and that was a provincial subject. Most of the larger landholdings were saved by shifting the holdings around several family members and trusted family employees. In UP, the orchid rule helped the landowners immensely. I doubt that very many landowners lost lands in those land reforms. Bihar and AP, I believe still have large land owners or feudal if I may say so. Therefore, they still hold political influence in India.
The real difference between Pakistan and India was the size of land holdings. In Pakistan, a family tended to hold larger but less fertile areas so their economic and political influence was not so dominant barring a few super landowner families. The Pakistani feudal became financial feudal when first the GM barrage and then Tarbela Dam were constructed. From 1947 to 1958, when the army was slowly gaining control of Pakistan, very few landowners collaborated with the army politically. The army and the civil bureaucracy in Pakistan were partners in murdering the stillborn democracy. The civil bureaucracy consisted of people who actually were part of the ICS and other government officer that moved from India after 1947.
Contrary to what you hear from Romair, Feudal in Pakistan are just fellow travelers of the army and bureaucracy. The Bhuttos were the only feudal family that made it to the top with lots of help from the army. The real value of the feudal in Pakistan society is their ability to gather votes from the rural areas and deliver them to the party of their choice.
In return, they are rewarded with some ministerial posts and agricultural loans to live off easily.
I hope you know that most feudal in Punjab were former British army officers originally. So their influence to carry votes depends on the money they can spend in the elections. It was not difficult at all for Bhutto- a non-Punjabi- and Nawaz Sharif to beat them in elections.

Re:HP#17

I agree with you about the ``common man`` thing to a certain extent. Thanks to Gandhi, India does have the tradition of mass mobilization, civil disobedience etc. Heck, our lives are made miserable by all the bandhs and hartals being organized. So there is a tradition in India of the common man getting together to organize protests and paralyzing the system. However, there are limits to such mobilization. Mass movements cannot forcibly take over power, unless there is civil war, revolution or some external power intervening, all of which are very rare, but they can make life miserable for whoever is in power.

You also wrote:``Once the US tied the army up in different alliances, starting with 1951 Korea war the Pakistan army continued to gain in strength, and weak political parties lost ground to it``. I think a cardinal mistake made in Pakistan was to keep the feudal system in place after 1947. As a result, your politics became dominated by feudals like Bhuttos, Legharis etc. These people used politics as a tool to keep their stranglehold on power preventing genuine democracy to develop at the grassroots and attracting frequent attention from your army.

Indian army is a very influential player in the Indian system, although it is in the background. This is to be expected given the centrifugal forces in a diverse nation like India and India`s growing ambitions to be a great power. However, the Indian army is smart enough to know the limits of its capabilities and realizes that it cannot take over the burden of administering India. It does not want to bite off more than it can chew.

# 15 ,HisExcellency,
you are right, first give us the list of noble deeds done from democratic side.
Every on e see the life through on`s lense.but it is reality Musharraf is the best leader so far we have.
Be positive we are going to be a strong nation soon.
if we start useing good words more often and frequently ,we can bring a change in a condition in which we are now.just as positive thought brings good to the individual ,so the collective thougts bring good to the nation.

# 15 ,HisExcellency,
you are right, first give us the list of noble deeds done from democratic side.
Every on e see the life through on`s lense.but it is reality Musharraf is the best leader so far we have.
Be positive we are going to be a strong nation soon.
if we start useing good words more often and frequently ,we can bring a change in a condition in which we are now.just as positive thought brings good to the individual ,so the collective thougts bring good to the nation.

# 15 ,HisExcellency,
you are right, first give us the list of noble deeds done from democratic side.
Every on e see the life through on`s lense.but it is reality Musharraf is the best leader so far we have.
Be positive we are going to be a strong nation soon.
if we start useing good words more often and frequently ,we can bring a change in a condition in which we are now.just as positive thought brings good to the individual ,so the collective thougts bring good to the nation.

Amit,
I never said anything about Indian army taking over in India. I was making a point about the “common man” in my post # 6. If the Indian army and it were a big if, takes over in India, the resistance would not come from the “common man” as the “common man” is unconcerned with theses issues at least in the third world countries.
I squarely blame the army in Pakistan for destroying that country’s culture, ethnic balance, tolerance level, and social fabric. I fully understand the impact the army takeover would have on India.
Why the army is in power in Pakistan and it is not in India is not difficult to follow. Indians politicians and political parties after the independence were very much stronger and influential than the army. In Pakistan, both the army and the political parties were weak to begin with. Once the US tied the army up in different alliances, starting with 1951 Korea war the Pakistan army continued to gain in strength, and weak political parties lost ground to it.
Now we can some other time discuss the real influence the current Indian army has over the Indian political system.

Re:HP

The real reason India has not seen military rule is its size and diversity. India is just too large and too diverse to be ruled autocratically by one person. Even if such a person like Mrs. Gandhi shows up, it is difficult for them to continue after a while. The entire system in India is afloat on the basis of power sharing and compromise between the different sections. One man cannot balance the needs and requirements for such a diverse country and be fair to everyone. This is the historical reason why India has always had weak or non-existent central rule while there have been strong provincial or regional political centers. Can you imagine an Indian version of Musharraf balancing the needs of Nagaland and Karnataka? That person will lose his mind.

History has also shown that whenever large diverse countries have autocratic rule, it leads to very bad results like the disintegration of the Soviet Union or the breakup of pre-1971 Pakistan. India has avoided such a fate by clinging to a democratic process that allows everyone to participate.

re: Nighat Yasmeen

``I will be grateful if someone can post a counter list pointing out the invisible positive traits of “enlightened moderation” other than increase in foreign exchange deposits and KSE performance as both are more or less unanticipated side effects of 9-11``

I would be grateful if you could post a list pointing out the invisible positive traits of ``democratically elected`` governments other than the fact that they came to power through the ballot.

Legitimacy is derived not just from how power is attained. It is also derived from the how power is exercised. And on that count, Musharraf is the most legitimate ruler in Pakistan`s history since Jinnah. That is why the middle class doesn`t want to get rid of Musharraf. The middle class likes Musharraf. His only flaw is that he is not a democratically elected politician. But this flaw is actually his greatest strength. After playing musical chairs with politicians for 12 years, the people of Pakistan are fed up with the bhuttos, sharifs, junejos, pagaras, altaf hussains and their ilk. Let their be a new generation of politicians. Then we`ll talk of democracy.

shankar #10: ``Great time for you to invest in Gilgit.``

Yes. You are correct. Actually, I am seriously thinking of reclaiming my grandparents` house in Srinagar. Legend has it that they were quite wealthy and left behind everything to move across to Pakistan. I will be buying my ticket on the Kashmir bus, shortly. The a//hole living in that house, better get ready..........I am coming to kick his ass and reclaim what is mine.........And I will be under the protection of a gora govt. passport.........

Do recall that about three or four years ago, I kept saying that it is a great time to invest in Gwadar. I said that under Musharraf, and Shaukut`s economic team, Pakistan`s economy was going to pick up. And Gwadar would be quite important. A lot of people laughed at me. They actually thought I was joking. Well, look now...........Everyone and their grandparent is investing in Gwadar.......

``Have you reflected how many Pakistanis curse their military on Chowk? I dont think I have come across any Indian in Chowk curse the Indian military...``

This is partly true and partly not. The second part about the Indian military is true. The first part about the Pakistani military is not true. You need to disregard opinions on Chowk and not consider them as a correct source of what Pakistanis think. Chowk is a tiny little privelaged crowd, which is far more Westernized and far wealthier than the average Pakistani. It is like using Beverly Hills to gauge what a person in rural Mississippi thinks.....

According to a survery carried out through Davos, in the whole world, the four most respected militaries, amongst their citizens (in no particular order) are India, Israel, USA and Pakistan. Yes, Pakistan.

There is only one group of individuals in the Pakistan military who is unpopular. And they are the Generals in the Army. About 125 of them. Out of a military of 600,000. You can go through any Pakistani magazine, newspaper etc., no one ever criticizes any of the soldiers. Not a single political party ever criticizes them. Try to find any statement from Benazir, Nawaz, Qazi Hussain etc.....

They (the soldiers, not the Generals) are, in fact, highly respected amongst the middle and lower middle class of Pakistan. Though the upper class (Chowk crowd) looks down upon them. I can say this through personal experience. I used to get a lot more respect as a Captain than as an expatriate, when I talked to taxiwallahs, shopkeepers etc. The reason is that the taxiwallahs and waiters and farmers and clerks, themselves, have kids in the military. While they have nothing in common with the Chowk crowd. They actually consider all of us wealthy Chowk crowd as not one of, ``them.``

The Air Force and Navy generals are respected, as well. Since they never participate in Martial Laws, including this one. Even though they are asked. In fact, the real problem in the Pakistani military are the Army Generals.......You will rarely, if ever see, any Air Force or Navy general saying anything stupid, or trying to get into the limelight.......They (most of them) behave like the Indian generals and stay in the background.

#11 by jang

There was not a single demonstration against emergency in India for the duration of the emergency. JP was arrested within the first days of emergency. He and other leaders never launched any protest against the emergency. We know morar Ji desie`s hobby in Jail.(At least that launched a global following of the p-drinkers)The emergency was lifted not under public pressure but on Mrs. Gandhi’s assessment that she could win elections.
So please don’t defend the un-defendable!

#9 by shankar
“Man...you have absolutely no clue about Indians”

No! I don’t! Indian have fallen from the sky and are different than the rest of the people in the world. They are a different specie and a superior race. They also have funny tails.
One can`t do anything about the delusional Indians!

Mrs. Gandhi was not defeated because of emergency. She was defeated because of the family planning campaign. She got right back in power within three years. If Indians hated emergency so much, they would not have voted her back in power!

you have a choice. you can either listen to a third rate loser writing for a third rate website. or you can listen to mohsin hamid:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0%2C13675%2C501040830-686105%2C00.html

``...Today, Pakistan is in much better shape. The economy is on a surer footing, peace talks with India are under way, and every week seems to bring news of another group of terrorists being captured or killed. Indeed, not since the end of the 1980s, when democracy was restored to Pakistan after the dark years of General Zia ul-Haq`s dictatorship, can I remember feeling so hopeful about Pakistan`s future. Progress is taking place throughout society. Colleges and universities are opening at a record rate; and tens of thousands of primary school teachers are being hired. More than a dozen new private television channels and radio stations are beaming lively political debate, frequently risqué lifestyle and fashion programs, and an exploding local music scene into homes across the country. Foreign companies are investing hundreds of millions of dollars to pursue the opportunities of a market that in population terms is the world`s sixth largest.

as for the situation in baluchistan, here is what the locals think, again according to m.h:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0%2C13675%2C501040830-686105%2C00.html

``....I remember walking along the beach a few days earlier and seeing the shattered glass that marked the site of the recent car bombing. I ask Babu why, if the people of Gwadar are so happy about the project, someone targeted the Chinese. ``It was not one of us,`` he says. ``But outsiders sometimes come. Strange people from Afghanistan and Peshawar and Islamabad. They do not come for business. We do not know why they are here. But I know that we did not do this thing to the Chinese.``


_ _ -He invites me to his home for lunch, and I eat with the men of his family. I ask them about reports I have read that tribal leaders in Baluchistan are opposed to the development of Gwadar, because they fear it will only benefit non-Baluch outsiders. They admit that this is true for some of the inland Baluch tribes, but not for the people of Gwadar itself.``

HP you are wrong, there were plenty protest during emergency and a large number of leaders went to jail as a result (most notable jaiprakash narain). Where you are right is that the press was muzzled very successfully.

Foujis in India are an unknown, i.e. for most folks they are invisible. So, its not clear if people will distribute sweets in the street if Faujis take over, e.g. Laloo is more powerful than Faujis in bihar, and no general can stand against Thakray.

Romair,

Great time for you to invest in Gilgit.

Re: # 6

Indira Gandhi was SOUNDLY beaten for her treachery of Emergency by the COMMON Indian.. & gave up power peacefully.. Would that ever happen in Pakistan?

BJP was SOUNDLY beaten for their neglecting the poor by COMMON Indians...& gave up power peacefully..Would that happen in Pakistan?

Have you reflected how many Pakistanis curse their military on Chowk? I dont think I have come across any Indian in Chowk curse the Indian military...no matter how much & how often Indian politicians are criticised & cursed....the military is respected...

You know why? because the COMMON Indian respects the Indian military. The military have never taken over power & looted the country, unlike Pakistan.

{{I can promise you that if the Indian army takes over in India now, a whole bunch of people would be distributing sweets on the streets of all major Indian cities. There will be no opposition to the army immediately.}}

Man...you have absolutely no clue about Indians

Being enlightened and being moderate are relative terms. Depends on what one compares them to...........I think a fair comparison would be with the history of the country itself. And not with Western countries, etc.......

Pakistan is, at the moment, more enlightened and more moderate than it has been in the last 25 years. And Pakistan`s economy is now rising faster than it has ever risen in my whole life. And this is a genuine indigenous rise. Not one funded by aid, or solely by remittances. The financial institutes of Pakistan have been completely restructured. And the economy is growing at the rates not seen since the heydays of 60s. This has been recognized by all critics of Pakistan..........

The easiest way to moderation and enlightenment is through a good economy.

The militant mullah has been completely defanged in Pakistan. Compare that to five years ago, when he ruled the country. The political mullah is no longer thinking of Shariah bills, like he was under the Nawaz Govt.

Issues like honor killing etc. are now critiqued daily on national TV and have the headlines. They never had that before. To the point that the feudals and their political parties, under whose jurisdiction all these honor killings occur are now, themselves, to save face, suggesting bills against it.

Women are now politically more empowered in Pakistan than at any time in its history. There are more women in Pakistan`s elected institutions than in most (perhaps nearly all) countries of the world. In fact, at the local level, there are more reserved seats for women than there are female candidates.

The minorities are now, more constitutionally empowered than the majority. They get their own candiadates and they can vote in the normal elections.

The press is far freer than at anytime in my life. If the true criteria of Democracy is that someone can stand in the Town Square and call the ruler a buffoon, then I think Pakistan qualifies for this many times over, now. The critics of Musharraf and his team have, themselves, gone hoarse publicly criticising him. Bhutto, Benazir, Zia and Nawaz never allowed this.

There are more radio and TV stations in Pakistan now than one could have ever imagined. Pakistani rock bands, are easily the best in South Asia. And the TV channel discusssions are better than any I have seen on any other TV show.

Now all Pakistan needs, in my opinion, is at least a decade of 7% growth. Pakistan`s poverty rate was at its historical low of around 18-20% in 1990. Through the lost decade of 90s, it rose to 33%. With over 6% growth over the next ten years, it will come down to around 18%, according to Ishrat Hussain.

A lot more needs to be done. Obvioulsy. But do keep in mind that Pakistan was just about to go under a Shariah law by the end of NS days. Only the Senate needed to approve it, which it would have. And Pakistan`s economy was at 3%+ growth rates. Not 7%+ growth rates. And journalists like Sethi were being kidnapped from their own bedrooms by the govt.

That`s not bad for five years progress. Then again, one can always be a cynic........

Re: # 6
What middle class?
Define it please!
The middle class has but one objective; to become the upper middle class.
The Upper middle class has but one objective; To join ranks with Joneses.
The Lower middle class has but one objective; To survive under the illusion of Safed Poshi or tight fisted respectability.
The poor have many objectives: Adequate Nutrition, Clothing, Shelter, medicine, education, protection from the collective middle class, the elite and the army.
The poor has the most to gain
The poor have the most to lose through inaction
The middle class has no interest in improving the living conditions of the poor, that is a fact because the resources are scarce.
If anyone can improve the situation of the poor, it is they themselves who must do it.
Revolutions demand the uprising of the poor, the lower most strata of a society.
They have to rise up and demand these basic rights.

#4 by yahyajamil
Yahya,
“Unless the common man stands up against all this, you, me and thousands of others who can only write will continue to lament.”

Is there any example that you can quote from all over the world when common folks stood up against any government, tyranny, or any state? It is always the middleclass, the educated class which fights for changes because they have interest in the country and the society. The ``common man`` is a dumb peasant or a rickshaw puller who has no interest with democracy or any thing like that.

The changes on the top in the whole world are initiated by the middle and the upper classes. The “common man” only votes in the Indian type of democracy. In the western democracies, common folks just secure some social rights thru votes. The “Common man” still does not influence the policy. If there is going to be any change in Pakistan that will come thru the middleclass efforts.

“why doesn`t he (Army Chief) take over the reins of the Govt when things are so bad, poverty, corruption etc etc. The Indian Army Chief is quoted as saying that `dil to mera bhi karta hai, magar in se (pointing towards the people i.e the common man) dar lagta hai. yeh ek din bhi nahin chorain ge mujhe`. “

This reply did not show any strength of people. If you won’t mind my saying that the Indian general saw a stupid question and came back with a stock answer.
In 1975, Mrs. Gandhi imposed emergency in India. Press was gagged, political parties were muzzled, opposition leaders were put in Jail, and there was not a single protest in India against all that.
The Indian “common man” that the army general referred to remained busy in his fields, factories and in most cases welcomed the emergency as it made some government departments function smoothly.

I can promise you that if the Indian army takes over in India now, a whole bunch of people would be distributing sweets on the streets of all major Indian cities. There will be no opposition to the army immediately.

The commies first developed this “common man” story and it is now being used by the every regime that usurps power illegally. The purpose of invoking the “common man” is to imply that unless the “common man” stands up against them they will continue to control the country illegally. They know it fully well that the mystery “common man” would never rise up against them or any govt.

Re: # 3 kaura
//...Don`t underestimate the lalas and Bahmans in Delhi. They know Musharaf....//

Do they? I doubt it. Freaks sitting in Delhi are stupid beyond description. Otherwise they wouldn`t have offered visa-free travel to jihadis, I mean pakis.

Which other country in whole wide world allows pakis to get in without a full cavity-check? And here - the mofos are letting them get in with no visa and no passport? Already there have been reports about Jihadi attack on Wipro, etc. There have been reports about pakis on cricket-visa disappearing into thin air.

I am going to make a prediction - in next one year, there will be huge jihadi attack in India, in scale of 9/11. Anybody willing to bet?

Nighat,
you have listed 25 points. Perhaps there are many more. We have all read about them so many times, have heard our intellectuals and not so intellectuals elaborate about them. But then who is responsible? Let me write about an encounter of a Pakistani journalist with the Indian Army Chief. This was in mid eighties. The journalist himself narrated it to me and I know him to be an upright person and he has no reason to make up the story. He was (according to him) part of the media team accompanying General Zia-ul-Haq to New Delhi. This journalist says he approached the India Army Chief at a gathering and requested for an interview. The India Army Chief asked him the reason why the journalist had picked him(Indian Army Chief) for this honour and also what in particular he wanted to ask. This journalist said that I asked him as to why doesn`t he (Army Chief) take over the reins of the Govt when things are so bad, poverty, corruption etc etc. The Indian Army Chief is quoted as saying that `dil to mera bhi karta hai, magar in se (pointing towards the people i.e the common man) dar lagta hai. yeh ek din bhi nahin chorain ge mujhe`. The reply reflects the strength of the people and how it prevents institutions from overstepping. It also reflects the respect that the institutions develop for the common man or in other words democratic traditions.
madam we may argue and advance counter arguments as to who is responsible for bringing us to a state where the the common man is least concerned or is unwilling to allow the concern to develop into a mass movement. The repeated failures of long marches and pro democracy movements has broken the will of the common man to take a stand against the undemocratic forces. For their selfish interests the politicians have compromised their only strenth, the people of this country. Unless the common man stands up against all this, you, me and thousands of others who can only write will continue to lament.

His `moderation enlightenment` is a tool to make Paksatan strong and in position to achieve his motives and intentions. He realized his old tactics had made Paksatan a pariah and an outcaste. He will try a different tactic. A cheetah doesn`t change its spots.

Don`t underestimate the lalas and Bahmans in Delhi. They know Musharaf.

Nighat,

Musharraf is now a necessary evil not only for Pakistan, but also for the US and even India. Hats off to him for making himself indispensable to the entire world :-). This guy is a real Chanakya :-).

Jokes aside, Musharraf has actually turned around Pakistan in a huge way. Not only in the Afghan and Kashmir policies but also the internal political culture within Pakistan. Clearly the jihadi elements in Pakistan are in a retreat. On top of that the economy is doing well. He has embraced good relations with India, which is already resulting in a peace dividend for both nations e.g. gas pipelines. The amazing this is that he has done all this without antagonizing the entire mullah brigade in Pakistan.

No elected government could have done all this in such a short period of time. Hopefully these changes are permanent and once he leaves the stage, Pakistan could transition towards a pluralistic democracy.

Mushy is fooling a lot of people - including the freaks in sitting in delhi [But then anybody can fool them].

So ``enlightened moderation`` is just a load of BS from the dictator.