Neither Enlightened nor Moderate

Mushy is fooling a lot of people - including the freaks in sitting in delhi [But then anybody can fool them].

So ``enlightened moderation`` is just a load of BS from the dictator.

Nighat,

Musharraf is now a necessary evil not only for Pakistan, but also for the US and even India. Hats off to him for making himself indispensable to the entire world :-). This guy is a real Chanakya :-).

Jokes aside, Musharraf has actually turned around Pakistan in a huge way. Not only in the Afghan and Kashmir policies but also the internal political culture within Pakistan. Clearly the jihadi elements in Pakistan are in a retreat. On top of that the economy is doing well. He has embraced good relations with India, which is already resulting in a peace dividend for both nations e.g. gas pipelines. The amazing this is that he has done all this without antagonizing the entire mullah brigade in Pakistan.

No elected government could have done all this in such a short period of time. Hopefully these changes are permanent and once he leaves the stage, Pakistan could transition towards a pluralistic democracy.

Re: # 3 kaura
//...Don`t underestimate the lalas and Bahmans in Delhi. They know Musharaf....//

Do they? I doubt it. Freaks sitting in Delhi are stupid beyond description. Otherwise they wouldn`t have offered visa-free travel to jihadis, I mean pakis.

Which other country in whole wide world allows pakis to get in without a full cavity-check? And here - the mofos are letting them get in with no visa and no passport? Already there have been reports about Jihadi attack on Wipro, etc. There have been reports about pakis on cricket-visa disappearing into thin air.

I am going to make a prediction - in next one year, there will be huge jihadi attack in India, in scale of 9/11. Anybody willing to bet?

His `moderation enlightenment` is a tool to make Paksatan strong and in position to achieve his motives and intentions. He realized his old tactics had made Paksatan a pariah and an outcaste. He will try a different tactic. A cheetah doesn`t change its spots.

Don`t underestimate the lalas and Bahmans in Delhi. They know Musharaf.

Nighat,
you have listed 25 points. Perhaps there are many more. We have all read about them so many times, have heard our intellectuals and not so intellectuals elaborate about them. But then who is responsible? Let me write about an encounter of a Pakistani journalist with the Indian Army Chief. This was in mid eighties. The journalist himself narrated it to me and I know him to be an upright person and he has no reason to make up the story. He was (according to him) part of the media team accompanying General Zia-ul-Haq to New Delhi. This journalist says he approached the India Army Chief at a gathering and requested for an interview. The India Army Chief asked him the reason why the journalist had picked him(Indian Army Chief) for this honour and also what in particular he wanted to ask. This journalist said that I asked him as to why doesn`t he (Army Chief) take over the reins of the Govt when things are so bad, poverty, corruption etc etc. The Indian Army Chief is quoted as saying that `dil to mera bhi karta hai, magar in se (pointing towards the people i.e the common man) dar lagta hai. yeh ek din bhi nahin chorain ge mujhe`. The reply reflects the strength of the people and how it prevents institutions from overstepping. It also reflects the respect that the institutions develop for the common man or in other words democratic traditions.
madam we may argue and advance counter arguments as to who is responsible for bringing us to a state where the the common man is least concerned or is unwilling to allow the concern to develop into a mass movement. The repeated failures of long marches and pro democracy movements has broken the will of the common man to take a stand against the undemocratic forces. For their selfish interests the politicians have compromised their only strenth, the people of this country. Unless the common man stands up against all this, you, me and thousands of others who can only write will continue to lament.

Re: # 6
What middle class?
Define it please!
The middle class has but one objective; to become the upper middle class.
The Upper middle class has but one objective; To join ranks with Joneses.
The Lower middle class has but one objective; To survive under the illusion of Safed Poshi or tight fisted respectability.
The poor have many objectives: Adequate Nutrition, Clothing, Shelter, medicine, education, protection from the collective middle class, the elite and the army.
The poor has the most to gain
The poor have the most to lose through inaction
The middle class has no interest in improving the living conditions of the poor, that is a fact because the resources are scarce.
If anyone can improve the situation of the poor, it is they themselves who must do it.
Revolutions demand the uprising of the poor, the lower most strata of a society.
They have to rise up and demand these basic rights.

Re: # 6

Indira Gandhi was SOUNDLY beaten for her treachery of Emergency by the COMMON Indian.. & gave up power peacefully.. Would that ever happen in Pakistan?

BJP was SOUNDLY beaten for their neglecting the poor by COMMON Indians...& gave up power peacefully..Would that happen in Pakistan?

Have you reflected how many Pakistanis curse their military on Chowk? I dont think I have come across any Indian in Chowk curse the Indian military...no matter how much & how often Indian politicians are criticised & cursed....the military is respected...

You know why? because the COMMON Indian respects the Indian military. The military have never taken over power & looted the country, unlike Pakistan.

{{I can promise you that if the Indian army takes over in India now, a whole bunch of people would be distributing sweets on the streets of all major Indian cities. There will be no opposition to the army immediately.}}

Man...you have absolutely no clue about Indians

Re: # 6
``Is there any example that you can quote from all over the world when common folks stood up against any government, tyranny, or any state? It is always the middleclass, the educated class which fights for changes because they have interest in the country and the society. The ``common man`` is a dumb peasant or a rickshaw puller who has no interest with democracy or any thing like that.``
HP,
Shore Sahib (#7) has made a point there.

``This reply did not show any strength of people. If you won’t mind my saying that the Indian general saw a stupid question and came back with a stock answer.``

The journalist was not stupid, he probably knew what the answer would be. The Indian Army Chief also knew that should he take over the reins, there would be no mass uprising. He wanted to make a point and the journalist wanted to make a point by quoting him. My point in narrating the incident was not what would actually take place, but to show that respect between institutions and the people is mutual. The argument that has developed on whether Indian Army can enter politics or not is needless and has little relevance to what is being discussed.

A few points regarding why we have reached a stage where we have to search for positives. Nations that need to build institutions do not put them through tests in infancy where their character and strength is tested before they have had time to build traditions in these spheres. We are all humans and susceptible to many pressures. As individuls we can only sustain that pressure if the institutions that we belong to have a tradition and record of withstanding these pressures. We should have by now built a reservoir of positive traditions for every institutions so that it could withstand pressures. On the contrary, we put virtually every institution through a test when that institutions had yet to build traditions of fair play and strength. Thus what emerged as a result of putting them through this trial became the norm. Had we nurtured role models of character, honour and strength in every institution we would have helped build these values in these institutions. If there were any role models they were all sacrificed to serve temporary interests.

#4 by yahyajamil
Yahya,
“Unless the common man stands up against all this, you, me and thousands of others who can only write will continue to lament.”

Is there any example that you can quote from all over the world when common folks stood up against any government, tyranny, or any state? It is always the middleclass, the educated class which fights for changes because they have interest in the country and the society. The ``common man`` is a dumb peasant or a rickshaw puller who has no interest with democracy or any thing like that.

The changes on the top in the whole world are initiated by the middle and the upper classes. The “common man” only votes in the Indian type of democracy. In the western democracies, common folks just secure some social rights thru votes. The “Common man” still does not influence the policy. If there is going to be any change in Pakistan that will come thru the middleclass efforts.

“why doesn`t he (Army Chief) take over the reins of the Govt when things are so bad, poverty, corruption etc etc. The Indian Army Chief is quoted as saying that `dil to mera bhi karta hai, magar in se (pointing towards the people i.e the common man) dar lagta hai. yeh ek din bhi nahin chorain ge mujhe`. “

This reply did not show any strength of people. If you won’t mind my saying that the Indian general saw a stupid question and came back with a stock answer.
In 1975, Mrs. Gandhi imposed emergency in India. Press was gagged, political parties were muzzled, opposition leaders were put in Jail, and there was not a single protest in India against all that.
The Indian “common man” that the army general referred to remained busy in his fields, factories and in most cases welcomed the emergency as it made some government departments function smoothly.

I can promise you that if the Indian army takes over in India now, a whole bunch of people would be distributing sweets on the streets of all major Indian cities. There will be no opposition to the army immediately.

The commies first developed this “common man” story and it is now being used by the every regime that usurps power illegally. The purpose of invoking the “common man” is to imply that unless the “common man” stands up against them they will continue to control the country illegally. They know it fully well that the mystery “common man” would never rise up against them or any govt.

Being enlightened and being moderate are relative terms. Depends on what one compares them to...........I think a fair comparison would be with the history of the country itself. And not with Western countries, etc.......

Pakistan is, at the moment, more enlightened and more moderate than it has been in the last 25 years. And Pakistan`s economy is now rising faster than it has ever risen in my whole life. And this is a genuine indigenous rise. Not one funded by aid, or solely by remittances. The financial institutes of Pakistan have been completely restructured. And the economy is growing at the rates not seen since the heydays of 60s. This has been recognized by all critics of Pakistan..........

The easiest way to moderation and enlightenment is through a good economy.

The militant mullah has been completely defanged in Pakistan. Compare that to five years ago, when he ruled the country. The political mullah is no longer thinking of Shariah bills, like he was under the Nawaz Govt.

Issues like honor killing etc. are now critiqued daily on national TV and have the headlines. They never had that before. To the point that the feudals and their political parties, under whose jurisdiction all these honor killings occur are now, themselves, to save face, suggesting bills against it.

Women are now politically more empowered in Pakistan than at any time in its history. There are more women in Pakistan`s elected institutions than in most (perhaps nearly all) countries of the world. In fact, at the local level, there are more reserved seats for women than there are female candidates.

The minorities are now, more constitutionally empowered than the majority. They get their own candiadates and they can vote in the normal elections.

The press is far freer than at anytime in my life. If the true criteria of Democracy is that someone can stand in the Town Square and call the ruler a buffoon, then I think Pakistan qualifies for this many times over, now. The critics of Musharraf and his team have, themselves, gone hoarse publicly criticising him. Bhutto, Benazir, Zia and Nawaz never allowed this.

There are more radio and TV stations in Pakistan now than one could have ever imagined. Pakistani rock bands, are easily the best in South Asia. And the TV channel discusssions are better than any I have seen on any other TV show.

Now all Pakistan needs, in my opinion, is at least a decade of 7% growth. Pakistan`s poverty rate was at its historical low of around 18-20% in 1990. Through the lost decade of 90s, it rose to 33%. With over 6% growth over the next ten years, it will come down to around 18%, according to Ishrat Hussain.

A lot more needs to be done. Obvioulsy. But do keep in mind that Pakistan was just about to go under a Shariah law by the end of NS days. Only the Senate needed to approve it, which it would have. And Pakistan`s economy was at 3%+ growth rates. Not 7%+ growth rates. And journalists like Sethi were being kidnapped from their own bedrooms by the govt.

That`s not bad for five years progress. Then again, one can always be a cynic........

Romair,

Great time for you to invest in Gilgit.

HP you are wrong, there were plenty protest during emergency and a large number of leaders went to jail as a result (most notable jaiprakash narain). Where you are right is that the press was muzzled very successfully.

Foujis in India are an unknown, i.e. for most folks they are invisible. So, its not clear if people will distribute sweets in the street if Faujis take over, e.g. Laloo is more powerful than Faujis in bihar, and no general can stand against Thakray.

you have a choice. you can either listen to a third rate loser writing for a third rate website. or you can listen to mohsin hamid:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0%2C13675%2C501040830-686105%2C00.html

``...Today, Pakistan is in much better shape. The economy is on a surer footing, peace talks with India are under way, and every week seems to bring news of another group of terrorists being captured or killed. Indeed, not since the end of the 1980s, when democracy was restored to Pakistan after the dark years of General Zia ul-Haq`s dictatorship, can I remember feeling so hopeful about Pakistan`s future. Progress is taking place throughout society. Colleges and universities are opening at a record rate; and tens of thousands of primary school teachers are being hired. More than a dozen new private television channels and radio stations are beaming lively political debate, frequently risqué lifestyle and fashion programs, and an exploding local music scene into homes across the country. Foreign companies are investing hundreds of millions of dollars to pursue the opportunities of a market that in population terms is the world`s sixth largest.

as for the situation in baluchistan, here is what the locals think, again according to m.h:

http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/printout/0%2C13675%2C501040830-686105%2C00.html

``....I remember walking along the beach a few days earlier and seeing the shattered glass that marked the site of the recent car bombing. I ask Babu why, if the people of Gwadar are so happy about the project, someone targeted the Chinese. ``It was not one of us,`` he says. ``But outsiders sometimes come. Strange people from Afghanistan and Peshawar and Islamabad. They do not come for business. We do not know why they are here. But I know that we did not do this thing to the Chinese.``


_ _ -He invites me to his home for lunch, and I eat with the men of his family. I ask them about reports I have read that tribal leaders in Baluchistan are opposed to the development of Gwadar, because they fear it will only benefit non-Baluch outsiders. They admit that this is true for some of the inland Baluch tribes, but not for the people of Gwadar itself.``

#11 by jang

There was not a single demonstration against emergency in India for the duration of the emergency. JP was arrested within the first days of emergency. He and other leaders never launched any protest against the emergency. We know morar Ji desie`s hobby in Jail.(At least that launched a global following of the p-drinkers)The emergency was lifted not under public pressure but on Mrs. Gandhi’s assessment that she could win elections.
So please don’t defend the un-defendable!

#9 by shankar
“Man...you have absolutely no clue about Indians”

No! I don’t! Indian have fallen from the sky and are different than the rest of the people in the world. They are a different specie and a superior race. They also have funny tails.
One can`t do anything about the delusional Indians!

Mrs. Gandhi was not defeated because of emergency. She was defeated because of the family planning campaign. She got right back in power within three years. If Indians hated emergency so much, they would not have voted her back in power!

Re: # 14

{{I am seriously thinking of reclaiming my grandparents` house in Srinagar. Legend has it that they were quite wealthy and left behind everything to move across to Pakistan. I will be buying my ticket on the Kashmir bus, shortly. The a//hole living in that house, better get ready..........I am coming to kick his ass and reclaim what is mine.........And I will be under the protection of a gora govt. passport......... }}

Goodluck with that..
Btw, when you bump into Santa Claus, tell him I said... ``hey! wassup!!``


{{Do recall that about three or four years ago, I kept saying that it is a great time to invest in Gwadar. I said that under Musharraf, and Shaukut`s economic team, Pakistan`s economy was going to pick up. And Gwadar would be quite important. A lot of people laughed at me. They actually thought I was joking. Well, look now...........Everyone and their grandparent is investing in Gwadar....... }}

Yeah Nostradamus! Thats exactly why you should invest in Gilgit. When the bus service opens, & Indian Kashmiri muslims see how utterly magnificent life in PoK is--they will refuse to go back (kinda like the beginning of the collapse of the Berlin Wall). Many of those refugees will have degrees... Dont you see the handwriting on the wall?! Azaaad Kashmir-the next Singapore!

Dont pose as a Canuk in Enslaved Kashmir yaar! Watch out...many of the apparent gora-looking tourists in enslaved Kashmir are Israelis!

shankar #10: ``Great time for you to invest in Gilgit.``

Yes. You are correct. Actually, I am seriously thinking of reclaiming my grandparents` house in Srinagar. Legend has it that they were quite wealthy and left behind everything to move across to Pakistan. I will be buying my ticket on the Kashmir bus, shortly. The a//hole living in that house, better get ready..........I am coming to kick his ass and reclaim what is mine.........And I will be under the protection of a gora govt. passport.........

Do recall that about three or four years ago, I kept saying that it is a great time to invest in Gwadar. I said that under Musharraf, and Shaukut`s economic team, Pakistan`s economy was going to pick up. And Gwadar would be quite important. A lot of people laughed at me. They actually thought I was joking. Well, look now...........Everyone and their grandparent is investing in Gwadar.......

``Have you reflected how many Pakistanis curse their military on Chowk? I dont think I have come across any Indian in Chowk curse the Indian military...``

This is partly true and partly not. The second part about the Indian military is true. The first part about the Pakistani military is not true. You need to disregard opinions on Chowk and not consider them as a correct source of what Pakistanis think. Chowk is a tiny little privelaged crowd, which is far more Westernized and far wealthier than the average Pakistani. It is like using Beverly Hills to gauge what a person in rural Mississippi thinks.....

According to a survery carried out through Davos, in the whole world, the four most respected militaries, amongst their citizens (in no particular order) are India, Israel, USA and Pakistan. Yes, Pakistan.

There is only one group of individuals in the Pakistan military who is unpopular. And they are the Generals in the Army. About 125 of them. Out of a military of 600,000. You can go through any Pakistani magazine, newspaper etc., no one ever criticizes any of the soldiers. Not a single political party ever criticizes them. Try to find any statement from Benazir, Nawaz, Qazi Hussain etc.....

They (the soldiers, not the Generals) are, in fact, highly respected amongst the middle and lower middle class of Pakistan. Though the upper class (Chowk crowd) looks down upon them. I can say this through personal experience. I used to get a lot more respect as a Captain than as an expatriate, when I talked to taxiwallahs, shopkeepers etc. The reason is that the taxiwallahs and waiters and farmers and clerks, themselves, have kids in the military. While they have nothing in common with the Chowk crowd. They actually consider all of us wealthy Chowk crowd as not one of, ``them.``

The Air Force and Navy generals are respected, as well. Since they never participate in Martial Laws, including this one. Even though they are asked. In fact, the real problem in the Pakistani military are the Army Generals.......You will rarely, if ever see, any Air Force or Navy general saying anything stupid, or trying to get into the limelight.......They (most of them) behave like the Indian generals and stay in the background.