The Criminal as Victim
Farzana Versey March 21, 2005
#371 Posted by kardesh on March 25, 2005 5:14:19 pm
Re: # 369
I meant to say that ``Thou shalt not kill circular things.`` :)
I meant to say that ``Thou shalt not kill circular things.`` :)
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#370 Posted by kardesh on March 25, 2005 12:47:40 pm
Re: # 369
Kaalchakra, :)
Unless they are circular. :)
Kaalchakra, :)
Unless they are circular. :)
#369 Posted by KaalChakra on March 25, 2005 12:43:13 pm
# 368
God replied: ``Thou shall definitely not kill a kardesh.`` :)
rsridhar, if you see this.
With your permission, we must follow up on this when you have time. In my very small way I would like to take some practical steps. But before that I would like to understand your view better.
God replied: ``Thou shall definitely not kill a kardesh.`` :)
rsridhar, if you see this.
With your permission, we must follow up on this when you have time. In my very small way I would like to take some practical steps. But before that I would like to understand your view better.
#368 Posted by kardesh on March 25, 2005 12:39:05 pm
God said ``Thou shalt not kill.``
Man and his whining ways qualiifed the commandment:
1. Thou shalt not kill unless thou is hungry.
2. Unless thou is sacrificing a virgin.
3. Unless thou believeth that God wants them dead.
4. Unless their protective walls fall down due to thine trumpets.
5, Unless they own land that thou needeth.
6. Unless they have pretty wives.
7. Unless they have too many children.
8. Unless thou wanteth to spread thine faith.
9. Unless thou is waging holy war.
10. Unless thou is on a Crusade.
11. Unless they are darker-skinned than thou.
12. Unless thou weareth a uniform.
13. Unless they burned the train first.
14. Unless they rebel.
15. Unless they made fun of the tea thou peddleth.
16. Unless thou is CM of Gujarat.
17. Unless thou is willing to die also.
18. Unless thou flyeth big planes into tall buildings.
19. Unless thou art the Chosen People.
20. Unless they are Shias.
21. Unless they are Sunnis.
22. Unless they are Jews.
23. Unless they are kaffirs.
24. Unless they are Muslims.
25. Unless they are Bahais.
26. Unless they are Sikhs like the ones who killed the PM.
27. Unless they are Dalits.
28. Unless they are Ahmedis.
29. Unless they are Christians.
30. Unless they are slant-eyed.
31. Unless they are camel jockeys.
32. Unless they are
(Please add your qualification here!)
Man and his whining ways qualiifed the commandment:
1. Thou shalt not kill unless thou is hungry.
2. Unless thou is sacrificing a virgin.
3. Unless thou believeth that God wants them dead.
4. Unless their protective walls fall down due to thine trumpets.
5, Unless they own land that thou needeth.
6. Unless they have pretty wives.
7. Unless they have too many children.
8. Unless thou wanteth to spread thine faith.
9. Unless thou is waging holy war.
10. Unless thou is on a Crusade.
11. Unless they are darker-skinned than thou.
12. Unless thou weareth a uniform.
13. Unless they burned the train first.
14. Unless they rebel.
15. Unless they made fun of the tea thou peddleth.
16. Unless thou is CM of Gujarat.
17. Unless thou is willing to die also.
18. Unless thou flyeth big planes into tall buildings.
19. Unless thou art the Chosen People.
20. Unless they are Shias.
21. Unless they are Sunnis.
22. Unless they are Jews.
23. Unless they are kaffirs.
24. Unless they are Muslims.
25. Unless they are Bahais.
26. Unless they are Sikhs like the ones who killed the PM.
27. Unless they are Dalits.
28. Unless they are Ahmedis.
29. Unless they are Christians.
30. Unless they are slant-eyed.
31. Unless they are camel jockeys.
32. Unless they are
(Please add your qualification here!)
#367 Posted by KaalChakra on March 25, 2005 12:12:58 pm
re: rsridhar # 363
rsridhar, I see an opportunity our little itjihad. We can conduct that excercise better given our tradition of maintaining mutual respect :)
IMHO, we mustn`t let something like this go opposed. Otherwise, we will lose a significant chance to chip away at the rock of casteist differences.
Disagreement and opposition on this issue does not mean disrespect to him, to his scholarship, and to his other efforts.
rsridhar, I see an opportunity our little itjihad. We can conduct that excercise better given our tradition of maintaining mutual respect :)
IMHO, we mustn`t let something like this go opposed. Otherwise, we will lose a significant chance to chip away at the rock of casteist differences.
Disagreement and opposition on this issue does not mean disrespect to him, to his scholarship, and to his other efforts.
#366 Posted by kardesh on March 25, 2005 12:09:08 pm
Gujju, Singularity, Masanmuthu, et al,
We usually give traffic violation tickets to mostly our own citizens. Is it asking too much to arrest them for rape, arson, looting, and mass murder?
We usually give traffic violation tickets to mostly our own citizens. Is it asking too much to arrest them for rape, arson, looting, and mass murder?
#365 Posted by KaalChakra on March 25, 2005 11:59:08 am
masananuthu, satyamvada
This is my take on what I read. Please let me know if I am on the right track.
He (the shankaracharya) is an intelligent, well-intentioned, tradition-loving Utopian. An utopian is an intelligent fool who does not believe there is anything called the real world.
The shankaracharya is a great scholar but he underestimates the power of labels and historical memories. He may have no inkling of the pain/ anguish/ anger/ disappointment/ frustration a person historically victimized by caste may feel, seeing him attempting to rescue the construct and the concept.
This shankaracharya is like the modern Muslims who want to save Islam by redefining (``correctly`` defining) its constructs of dhimmi, kafir, jihad, and jezia.
I would say: Guru ji, I think I understand what you are trying to do, but we must go further. In the real world people will not/can not understand your subtle distinctions. We cannot pretend that they will. We will not take the risk of continued confusion. Our break must be clearer, more unambiguous, more definitive.
Frankly, we may sympathize with the Shankaracharya`s utopian efforts, but for all practical purposes, we still need to treat this as an attempt to continue blundering along.
We need some Hindus to openly oppose the Shankaracharya (or the math) on this, since no religious leader ever changes his opinions on `tradition.`
Satyamvada
I know what you are saying. I just wish we made faster progress in earning a moral right to confront people. Until then all of us of all castes will continue to be collectively victimized, perhaps justly....
This is my take on what I read. Please let me know if I am on the right track.
He (the shankaracharya) is an intelligent, well-intentioned, tradition-loving Utopian. An utopian is an intelligent fool who does not believe there is anything called the real world.
The shankaracharya is a great scholar but he underestimates the power of labels and historical memories. He may have no inkling of the pain/ anguish/ anger/ disappointment/ frustration a person historically victimized by caste may feel, seeing him attempting to rescue the construct and the concept.
This shankaracharya is like the modern Muslims who want to save Islam by redefining (``correctly`` defining) its constructs of dhimmi, kafir, jihad, and jezia.
I would say: Guru ji, I think I understand what you are trying to do, but we must go further. In the real world people will not/can not understand your subtle distinctions. We cannot pretend that they will. We will not take the risk of continued confusion. Our break must be clearer, more unambiguous, more definitive.
Frankly, we may sympathize with the Shankaracharya`s utopian efforts, but for all practical purposes, we still need to treat this as an attempt to continue blundering along.
We need some Hindus to openly oppose the Shankaracharya (or the math) on this, since no religious leader ever changes his opinions on `tradition.`
Satyamvada
I know what you are saying. I just wish we made faster progress in earning a moral right to confront people. Until then all of us of all castes will continue to be collectively victimized, perhaps justly....
#364 Posted by rsridhar on March 25, 2005 11:53:36 am
re: #351 by Dalit
Hey YLH (or Mantolives).
HOw are u?
Sridhar
Hey YLH (or Mantolives).
HOw are u?
Sridhar
#363 Posted by rsridhar on March 25, 2005 11:50:30 am
re:#353 by masanamuthu
Kanchi Shankaracharya is a religious head of the Brahmin sect. Most of his followers are Iyers thought Iyengars also count as followers. As a religious head, he has no powers. He does not have jehadis and suicide bombers as his followers. His followers are God-fearing Tam Brahms. If u know this community, it is very law abiding and accomplished in every conceivable field. They invoke envy and hatred at the same time (you can see a sample of this in this moron KKhurram`s posts). I think the general impression is that the law should take its course though there is a lot of anger about the way Jayalalalitha has tried to frame the Kanchi seer. The politics of this is much deeper.
Sridhar
Kanchi Shankaracharya is a religious head of the Brahmin sect. Most of his followers are Iyers thought Iyengars also count as followers. As a religious head, he has no powers. He does not have jehadis and suicide bombers as his followers. His followers are God-fearing Tam Brahms. If u know this community, it is very law abiding and accomplished in every conceivable field. They invoke envy and hatred at the same time (you can see a sample of this in this moron KKhurram`s posts). I think the general impression is that the law should take its course though there is a lot of anger about the way Jayalalalitha has tried to frame the Kanchi seer. The politics of this is much deeper.
Sridhar
#362 Posted by rsridhar on March 25, 2005 11:38:42 am
re: #319 by harimau
``...After all, Iyengars use Tamil in their pujas; Iyers don`t. The Four Thousand Sacred Hymns of the Iyengars are all in Tamil. Iyers use only Sanskrit mantras for worship. So, if nothing else, Iyers maintain the Vedic tradition better than Iyengars. We like to say that Ramanujacharya went around converting Shanars (toddy tappers) to Iyengars. I don`t know what the Iyengars say but would be curious to find out. ..``
I have not heard this thing about Iyengars converting Shanars. I did not know that was even possible. If so, it is commendable. At least some people thought out of the box and went against the dictates of the caste in those times.
My own ex-wife was an Iyer. We had no problems on religious basis but parted company due to other reasons (each had a big time ego; i am much mellowed now, don`t know about my ex-wife). This rift between the 2 communities must have existed in the past as Iyengars perceived themselves as a minority, trying to preserve their unique way of worship. You even have different terminologies for food items among Iyengars. I think they tried very hard to differentiate themselves from Iyers. Some of that legacy persists till today.
Most of the Vaishnavite works are encompassed in the Divyaprabhandam. People like Andal (who wrote Thiruppavai in Tamil) and Nammalwar wrote hymns mainly in Tamil. But hymns in sanskrit are also popular among Iyengars. I personally know Vishnu sahasranamam (hymns in praise of Vishnu in sanskrit) but do not know any in Tamil. My mom knows a whole lot of hymns in sanskrit. In this day and age, living in USA, i am not sure what these hymns mean. Now-a-days, i just meditate when i feel like it. I hardy ever visit a temple.
This rift between the 2 communities does not make any sense in this day and age. Like the caste system, these things are in the minds of the people and will take time to change.
Sridhar
``...After all, Iyengars use Tamil in their pujas; Iyers don`t. The Four Thousand Sacred Hymns of the Iyengars are all in Tamil. Iyers use only Sanskrit mantras for worship. So, if nothing else, Iyers maintain the Vedic tradition better than Iyengars. We like to say that Ramanujacharya went around converting Shanars (toddy tappers) to Iyengars. I don`t know what the Iyengars say but would be curious to find out. ..``
I have not heard this thing about Iyengars converting Shanars. I did not know that was even possible. If so, it is commendable. At least some people thought out of the box and went against the dictates of the caste in those times.
My own ex-wife was an Iyer. We had no problems on religious basis but parted company due to other reasons (each had a big time ego; i am much mellowed now, don`t know about my ex-wife). This rift between the 2 communities must have existed in the past as Iyengars perceived themselves as a minority, trying to preserve their unique way of worship. You even have different terminologies for food items among Iyengars. I think they tried very hard to differentiate themselves from Iyers. Some of that legacy persists till today.
Most of the Vaishnavite works are encompassed in the Divyaprabhandam. People like Andal (who wrote Thiruppavai in Tamil) and Nammalwar wrote hymns mainly in Tamil. But hymns in sanskrit are also popular among Iyengars. I personally know Vishnu sahasranamam (hymns in praise of Vishnu in sanskrit) but do not know any in Tamil. My mom knows a whole lot of hymns in sanskrit. In this day and age, living in USA, i am not sure what these hymns mean. Now-a-days, i just meditate when i feel like it. I hardy ever visit a temple.
This rift between the 2 communities does not make any sense in this day and age. Like the caste system, these things are in the minds of the people and will take time to change.
Sridhar
#361 Posted by masanamuthu on March 25, 2005 11:38:01 am
Re: # 356
satyamvada:
I understand.. This sankaracharya was trying to act different. I think he`s getting a raw deal from Jaya for some personal reasons..
Alrite, ``pseudo-secularists`` think about the valid questions and issues raised by singularity and me. Associating yourself with ``jihadis`` does more harm than good. I`m all for real ``secularism`` and ``democracy`` where everyone and every religion is treated equally and everything is open to debate. Nothing is sacred except the freedom of thought and expression..
The US`s hypocrisy of denying ``Narendra modi```s freedom of expression due to ``vested interests`` is highly counter-productive and might end up actually strengthening him..
Killing/raping/burning other human beings either inside the train or inside their homes is the worst thing that even animals won`t indulge in. And that too in the name of religion which was supposed to purify and cleanse everyone. But to avoid that we have to find and destroy the source of hatred. Unfortunately supporting ``pseudo-secularists`` like this article`s writer who conveniently argue for ``religious freedom`` in one place but remain silent to the abuses of ``religious freedom`` in other places to fit their goals would result in the opposite, fanning more and more hatred..
satyamvada:
I understand.. This sankaracharya was trying to act different. I think he`s getting a raw deal from Jaya for some personal reasons..
Alrite, ``pseudo-secularists`` think about the valid questions and issues raised by singularity and me. Associating yourself with ``jihadis`` does more harm than good. I`m all for real ``secularism`` and ``democracy`` where everyone and every religion is treated equally and everything is open to debate. Nothing is sacred except the freedom of thought and expression..
The US`s hypocrisy of denying ``Narendra modi```s freedom of expression due to ``vested interests`` is highly counter-productive and might end up actually strengthening him..
Killing/raping/burning other human beings either inside the train or inside their homes is the worst thing that even animals won`t indulge in. And that too in the name of religion which was supposed to purify and cleanse everyone. But to avoid that we have to find and destroy the source of hatred. Unfortunately supporting ``pseudo-secularists`` like this article`s writer who conveniently argue for ``religious freedom`` in one place but remain silent to the abuses of ``religious freedom`` in other places to fit their goals would result in the opposite, fanning more and more hatred..
#360 Posted by masanamuthu on March 25, 2005 11:37:54 am
Re: # 356
satyamvada:
I understand.. This sankaracharya was trying to act different. I think he`s getting a raw deal from Jaya for some personal reasons..
Alrite, ``pseudo-secularists`` think about the valid questions and issues raised by singularity and me. Associating yourself with ``jihadis`` does more harm than good. I`m all for real ``secularism`` and ``democracy`` where everyone and every religion is treated equally and everything is open to debate. Nothing is sacred except the freedom of thought and expression..
The US`s hypocrisy of denying ``Narendra modi```s freedom of expression due to ``vested interests`` is highly counter-productive and might end up actually strengthening him..
Killing/raping/burning other human beings either inside the train or inside their homes is the worst thing that even animals won`t indulge in. And that too in the name of religion which was supposed to purify and cleanse everyone. But to avoid that we have to find and destroy the source of hatred. Unfortunately supporting ``pseudo-secularists`` like this article`s writer who conveniently argue for ``religious freedom`` in one place but remain silent to the abuses of ``religious freedom`` in other places to fit their goals would result in the opposite, fanning more and more hatred..
satyamvada:
I understand.. This sankaracharya was trying to act different. I think he`s getting a raw deal from Jaya for some personal reasons..
Alrite, ``pseudo-secularists`` think about the valid questions and issues raised by singularity and me. Associating yourself with ``jihadis`` does more harm than good. I`m all for real ``secularism`` and ``democracy`` where everyone and every religion is treated equally and everything is open to debate. Nothing is sacred except the freedom of thought and expression..
The US`s hypocrisy of denying ``Narendra modi```s freedom of expression due to ``vested interests`` is highly counter-productive and might end up actually strengthening him..
Killing/raping/burning other human beings either inside the train or inside their homes is the worst thing that even animals won`t indulge in. And that too in the name of religion which was supposed to purify and cleanse everyone. But to avoid that we have to find and destroy the source of hatred. Unfortunately supporting ``pseudo-secularists`` like this article`s writer who conveniently argue for ``religious freedom`` in one place but remain silent to the abuses of ``religious freedom`` in other places to fit their goals would result in the opposite, fanning more and more hatred..
#359 Posted by rsridhar on March 25, 2005 11:19:20 am
re: #322 by arjun_m
I think you misunderstood the spirit of my post. I was saying exactly what u are saying, that the muslims in India need to introspect as to where they are going.
Sridhar
I think you misunderstood the spirit of my post. I was saying exactly what u are saying, that the muslims in India need to introspect as to where they are going.
Sridhar
#358 Posted by Prashant123 on March 25, 2005 11:13:21 am
khuram : ``But I assure you Bihar is great place which is getting better and better.``
hahaha....You are funny !!! ....keep posting !!
hahaha....You are funny !!! ....keep posting !!
#357 Posted by KKKhurram on March 25, 2005 11:05:02 am
Seems like all the dakhani brahmans are back, stroking each other. I don’t know how you guys can spend so much time online reading all the crap that is posted. But hey, good for you. I lived in Bangalore for sometime and had a good time. South India is a nice place where everyone can prosper without much trouble and without lot of religion/caste troubles. This is because brahmans are pretty much insignificant. Pretty soon north(UP/Bihar) will be like that. Everyone in India, irrespective of caste/religion, wants same thing– good education, good job, safe/secure lifestyle despite what the Hindutva inspired rediff people like Lavakare, Shenoy, Varsha Bhosle would like everyone believe. Try not to read too much into different verses of Koran. Don’t think all Muslims take this literally. There are tons of passages in Bible justifying slaughter etc. And I don’t want to get into Manu-Smariti (and Gita) but everyone knows that the reason why India has 250 million people who are called untouchables and living in starving conditions like sub-sahran Africans is because Brahmins took inspiration from this little piece of racist-document and influenced the kings to condemn the indigenous tribals/dalit people to life-time of shame and discrimination just for the accident of being born in the wrong family. Regarding muslims, I agree there is a few bhoola-bhatka mussalmans who wants to take revenge on the people who are starting different riots. I am thankful to whoever killed Haren Pandya(the fricking Bahman) who engineered the Gujarat riots. SIMI is pretty much insignificant unlike what some rss journalist would like everyone to believe. Anyways, I want to invite you guys to my native place in Gaya-Garhwa area in South Bihar. I am sure you will love it there. Unlike what you see in news, Bihar is not that bad and things are getting better. Just don’t say you are Brahman, else the gwalas and pasis will take you away and only heaven knows what they will do to you. All of them Maithili Bahmans-Jhas are running away from Bihar like there is no tomorrow. But I assure you Bihar is great place which is getting better and better.
#356 Posted by satyamvada on March 25, 2005 11:00:36 am
Masanamuthu #354
Just FYI,
The current acharya of Kanchi disagreed with his guru - the previous acharya.
So the current Kanchi-acharya walked away from Kanchi in the 80`s leaving the
`dandam` (which signifies his position as the head of the peetham) behind.
Since, the current Kanchi-Acharya is very reformist he has been targetted by
missionary forces.
Ironically, in India, the hindu reformist forces are termed communal and communalists
are secular :)
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- harish_hyd: Beena, tahmed32 sahib et... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- tahmed32: #149 Aha_Snark bhai: in... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- tahmed32: harish #135 we have,... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- Aha_Snark: Re: # 142 &... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- Aha_Snark: Re: # 144 Tahmedji, i'm... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- shoaib_daniyal: Re# 141 Beena, I did not... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- rabiawsti: #143: "there you went... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- tahmed32: #142 no one "deserves"... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
