The Criminal as Victim

Re: # 333
DM Sahib,
Thank you for your ability to see through the clouds. As long as many of us come together to condemn mass murders (no matter what the ethnic/religious/national identities are of the victims or the perpetrators), there is hope. Believe me, there are many Muslims who are completely against the Muslim fundos who are spreading hate, violence, and murder all over the globe. Those who paste posters of UBL are like our own Gujju - thinking it`s cool to support someone who is maligned by those he doesn`t like himself. ``My enemy`s enemy is my friend even if he wants to kill me too.``

Re: # 329
Arjun,
Thanks for your simple honest answer. Your credibility is always up there because you don`t try to justify everything - even if it`s obviously wrong. I admire that trait in you.

Re: # 330
Jang, my friend, you are so right. The victims die horrible deaths, the raped and mutilated girls look to those in authority for answers, and successful Gujju businessmen invite Modi to US and UK. That is why I believe in the Day of Judgement. Somehow, the Hitlers, Genghis Khans, Saddams, UBLs, Saudis, Paki generals, Modis, Thackerays, and the unnamed beasts in Bengal, Punjab, Bihar of 1947 will get theirs. Let`s just try to do good ourselves and to speak out against ALL evil. Thanks.

satyamvada, kardesh:

Actually, public enquiry is a better vehicle than a court trial. The rules of evidence in a court trial are very restricted, any testimony, hearsay, etc. which is not directly related to the accused`s guilt cannot be introduced in a court of law; so the chances are very low that any court will find enough evidence to convict him. Public enquiry is more likely to bring out all evidence, direct and indirect.

Satyamvada #332,
{``If the Nanavati commission says that there is evidence that Modi abetted and indulged
in violence then he should be tried. Until then Modi deserves the same rights as others``}

Fair enough! Let`s see what is revealed. The eye-witness accounts of police officers in uniform guiding the mobs and actually turning the victims to their killers are very sad. The lack of response to urgent phone calls for help is quite revealing.

Re: # 331
Personally, I think that Preity Zenta is not so pretty, but certainly a vast improvement over UBL. I prefere Priyanka Chopra posters myself.

arjun-m#324:

``don`t give us the ``every religion has it`s nuts`` BS...``

I never have. I am not fond of Islam, especially after reading the Quran and hadith. But I also maintain that majority of Muslims are no better or worse than majority of any other religious faith. I believe in the opposite of what moderate muslims say, namely, that Islam is a perfect/complete relgion but that Muslims are its imperfect practitioners. I thank Allah that they are imperfect practioners.

``Do they support ``RELIGIOUS FREEDOM` in Saudi Arabia.? (i.e allowing the religious minorities to build their places of worship, perform their religious rights in cases of births/deaths etc..), A simple ``Yes`` or a ``No` is what you should expect and get``

Frankly, I haven`t asked this specific question to anyone. But my hunch is that they would say `yes`.

``We have all departed from the main topic - Mr. Modi. We are talking about religion, history, sacred texts, terrorism, satti, and other peripheral matters. The fact is that Mr. Modi needs to be tried for being implicatied in the organized mass slaughter of innocent human beings in the state of Gujarat.``

I fully agree. And please dont bring back barachota; I am afraid of him;)

`` Mr. Modi needs to be tried for being implicated in the state-sponsored, police-led massacre of innocent human beings in the state of Gujurat?``

Complete bullshit. ``State-sponsored`` ``police-led massacre`` all lies perpetrated.

Do you know how many hindus were killed in police shootings ?
Do you know how many policemen were killed ?
How many were the total number of innocent victims ?

The accusation against Modi is that he did not deploy the army immediately.
Yes, he can be accused about that .... but it has been mentioned that at that time,
the Indian army was deployed against Pakiland - which needed more action
at the Central level and its political implcations. So this accusation has to be studied.

The second accusation against him which is more accurate and valid - is of indulging in
cover up of crimes of individuals who indulged in violence. You know what - there was
wholesale participation by both BJP and Congress ``leaders`` and that is why
where little sound about that is being made.

So, blindly accusing Modi of explicit/implicit hand in violence is wrong. If anything, it is
people like Musharraf who are guilty of explicit genocidal military action against
shias in the northern areas.

By making extravagant claims about Modis complicity in violence, the whole case
is undermined and society is more polarized.
The Supreme Court accused Modi`s Govt of protecting criminals accused of the violence.

The Nanavati Commission is in progress. When Justice Nanavati places his report
there will be a more accurate information.
If the Nanavati commission says that there is evidence that Modi abetted and indulged
in violence then he should be tried. Until then Modi deserves the same rights as others.

Barring the few who have made a name in Arts, Cinema, they are marginalized from the mainstream. For eg, the number of muslims in IITs, govt jobs is all abysmal and is a thing of concern.

Just as a follow up...many of the very few who do go to IIT end up putting up posters of Osama posters in their rooms instead of the Priety Zinta posters that are so commonplace in the hostels....

Kardesh, you asked how modi (and his govt) can be brought to courts and justice. I dont see it happen.

Interestingly, Bal Thakreys citizenship rights were revoked by the courts (i.e. his name was deleted from electoral rolls) and a case was registered against him for ``inciting communal violence``. The day he was supposed to make to to courts, he pretty much challanged the Congress govt to arrest him, and whole bombay was waiting in suspence. At the end, they reached some kind of a compromise, he showed up in the court to face the charges, but the law for hate speech is so weak that he case was easily thrown away on technicalities.

In modis case, its very clear that the people of Gujrat are behind him in a large way, post-godhra riots notwithstanding, inspite of unprecedented media coverage. So there is nothing you can do besides protest or write chowk postings (which is important thing to do). But its the people of gujrat who have to feel convinced that modi is bad for them. At this points the media spotlight, snubs, and protests dont seem to do the job.

#328 by kardesh on March 25, 2005 7:57am PT


agree that Mr. Modi needs to be tried for being implicated in the state-sponsored, police-led massacre of innocent human beings in the state of Gujurat?


it will take nothing...I already think his gujju rear should be in tihar jail....

Singularity, Harimau, and others,
You are all educated and intelligent human beings. Please tell me what will it take for you to agree that Mr. Modi needs to be tried for being implicated in the state-sponsored, police-led massacre of innocent human beings in the state of Gujurat?

My friends,
We have all departed from the main topic - Mr. Modi. We are talking about religion, history, sacred texts, terrorism, satti, and other peripheral matters. The fact is that Mr. Modi needs to be tried for being implicatied in the organized mass slaughter of innocent human beings in the state of Gujarat. The involvement of state officials and availability of demographic information to the police-led howling, jeering, blood-thirsty violent mobs are the reasons why many people are so against Modi. I detest Modi for the same reasons that I abhor Sadman Houston, UBL, Adolph Hitler, and Pol Pot. I really hate mass murderers.

Re: # 323

dost-mittar:

``Saudi mosques are the root of all problems with Islam, so why would they issue a fatwa against them? But a Spanish mosque has issues a fatwa. Let`s hope more will follow. BTW how many Shankaracharyas have disowned Modi? ``.

``Most of my friends do not like Saudi Arabia. One of them, an Indian Muslim, curses them because they wouldn`t give a visa to his sister to join her husband working in Saudi Arabia. He is an Irish catholic and I suspect that under Saudi laws, their marriage wont be halal...``

Not trying to repeat what arjun said, I just asked you to convince yourself by asking the question.. Do they support ``RELIGIOUS FREEDOM` in Saudi Arabia.? (i.e allowing the religious minorities to build their places of worship, perform their religious rights in cases of births/deaths etc..), A simple ``Yes`` or a ``No` is what you should expect and get. Then figure out their ``secularist` credentials. I believe you`d say ``YES`` to my question. If your answer is ``NO`` I don`t think there is any point in continuing the discussions..

Thanks.

Also. FYI: I have zero respect for shankaracharyas.. It`s funny how the internet is helping me learn Quran / teachings of Sankaracharya etc.. Those dudes preach ``caste system by birth / condone untouchability`` etc.. and not many give a rat`s a** to those folks..

Harimau,

FYI,
Veerashanmugamoni is a sanskrit based name :) [veera, shad+mukha, mani]

Even the Rigveda itself is considered to be post-convergence. That is the Rigveda
has a mixture of so called ``indo-aryan`` ``dravidian`` linguistic features according
to western academics.
Of course, the Indian argument is that all the so called ``indo-aryan`` ``dravidian``
linguistic classification itself is wrong !.

Also, Iyengars are ubhaya-vedantis i.e they use both Sanskrit and Tamil
sources. All this, just so that you can correct yourself....

#323 by dost-mittar on March 25, 2005 6:18am PT


there are some islamist jihadists among muslims. Did I deny that?


enough of this BS....you and I both know that while a majority of muslims may not directly support the actions of the 9/11 terrorists, they do sympathize with the cause and methods...in effect, a majority of muslims condone the actions of the terrorists .most muslims, when discussing 9/11, talk about the ``root cause``..as if any root cause justifies terrorism...and let`s not kid ourselves...this sympathy IS based on the interpreatation of Islam and Islam`s basics tenets about support for the ummah/muslim brotherhood/whatever...

don`t give us the ``every religion has it`s nuts`` BS...pray tell...why do the vast majority of muslim Pakistani support Osama Bin Laden...If what Osama Bin laden did was really against Islam, why is support for OBL so high in so many muslim countries...Isn`t it self-contradictory...

Saying that support for OBL is high because of American policies is a cop-out...American foreign policy is disliked just as much in France and Germany...yet the people there don`t support OBL....

At some level, muslims believe the actions of OBL are justified according to the teaching of the koran...especially the part where it says muslims are obliged to fight for the cause of oppressed muslims everywhere...

I am so sick of the PC bullcrap peddled all the time..

To your credit, you haven`t repeated the poverty causes terrorism BS...


But a Spanish mosque has issues a fatwa.


That`s got everything to do with the imams not wanting to get deported...