The Criminal as Victim

Harimau #422, {``and we already know what is happening to the Qadianis and the Baha`ais.``}

Somehow, I don`t think that your concern for Qadianis and Baha`is is sincere.
Also, the killing of dozens of Hindus or thousands of Muslims is equally disturbing, unnecessary, and sad - as far as I am concerned, just the numbers are disproportionate, the sadness is the same. Your comment about including dead Hindus in the dead Muslim count as somehow posthumous conversion is both nonsense and sick. May all those who are murdered receive compensation in the hereafter. Harimua, please become more humane and more compassionate. Your stance is neither manly nor complimentary to India or Hinduism..

rsridhar #437, 438,
The descriptions of the dead females` bodies, by the woman who washed them, should melt everyone`s heart - including Gujju and Harimau. I would have been equally outraged if these had been Hindus, Jews, Christians, or Sikhs. These are our fellow human beings.
Thank you for your compassionate posts and hope for the future. I agree with you, let`s hope we never see the likes of Gujarat again and may our future be more like the Z Cine Awards for 2005.

bbabu #421, {``Setting up provisions to prevent abuses by majority and the government will the second step for India. The second step is still a work in progress. ``}

Will the second step be completed before the minorities are permanently wiped out or are sufficiently handicapped by fear?

I know what you mean, but individual cases of crime such as theft, arson. rape, and murder occur in all societies and are usually dealt with more or less efficiently. But when state-sponsored police-led mass murder is condoned or excused, we are talking about major setbacks in confidence. Not all Germans were Nazis, not all Nazis were murderers, but the stigma sticks to this day. When Gujarat is mentioned, I think of mass murder, when Modi`s name comes up, I think of Hitler.

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Just the facts please...

M.J.Akbar`s article posted by Netizen in#419 shows why he is one of the most respected journalists in India, perhaps more so because he is a muslim although that should be immaterial; he bases his opinions on facts and not the other way around. So here are the facts, as I see them.

-Rowdy passengers, calling themselves karsevaks (religious volunteers) returning from their provocative act (at least in the eyes of Muslims) of building a temple over the demolished barbri masjid, have a habit of making taunting, teasing, provocative remarks to the Muslims at the railway station at Godhra.

-One day, a tragedy happens, when a compartment of a train carrying these passengers is burnt, killing 59 hindus, including women and children.

-At the time of the tragedy, a mob of muslims is gathered outside the train and the compartments are locked from inside.

-On the following day, the Hindu parties and a few Muslim leaders condemn the act of burning the train.

-Most of the Hindu secular media, while reporting the tragedy, paints the victims in a very poor light, saying that they misbehaved with a muslim tea vendor and his daughter, which was the cause of the provocation and the resulting tragedy. The secular media, however, do not doubt that the burning was by the muslim mob, although it is represented as a reaction to a grave provocation.

-There is a palpable rage among the hindus, I suspect partly, because an attempt was made by the hindu secular media (not Muslims, I must add) to almost say that the victims deserved their fate.

- The saffronites call a strike in Gujarat. Everyone is worried about what is going to happen.

-Riots start in Ahmedabad. Police remains passive onlookers as organized gangs of hindu killers indulge in the act of arson, rape, looting and murder. The gangs knew which closed shop was owned by a muslim and which was not, even when the name of an establishment was typically gujarati/hindu. It was reported, not yet proved, that the murderers were carrying officially provided lists of muslim shop owners.

-Narendra Modi issues a statement justifying what was happening as a natural reaction to the events in Godhra (he later denies that statement, but long after the carnage is over). Calls for help to police are ignored, even when made by an ex MP.

-Police officers and administrators who tried to do their job of protecting the victims are transferred.

-FIRs are not registered. Cases against the accused are bungled.

-Human Rights organizations report Modi`s culpability.

- A few months later, a really provocative attack on a famous religious place (Akshardham) takes place where muslim attackers fire at the crowd, killing people. There is no reaction and not a single Muslim is killed in revenge. [It would be reasonable to assume that the police had a different order this time].

-An enquiry into the riots was ordered, its report is still awaited.

-Another enquiry was ordered by the least credible politician in India (except among Muslims). The judge heading the enquiry issues the results which exonerate the Muslims of burning the Godhra train. Questions are raised about the findings for which no satisfactory answers have been provided yet.

What do these facts prove? You be the judge!

Chowk staff:

Thanks for waking up!

Just to add to what I said ....Shridar...ask the Hyderabadis what they think of muslims. Ask the tamilians in Coimbattoor what they think of muslims. Ask the Keralites of Marad what they think of muslims. Ask the local Bangaloreans living in and around colonies like Shivajinagar , DJ Halli , Austin Town - what they think of muslims. Ask people in Belgaum , Hubli , Dharwad what they think of muslims.

Most of the people you talk to will share one thing in common .Hatred for muslims in various degrees. But not all vote for BJP or share membership of RSS.

My point is ...it is not merely BJP supporters or RSS workers who hate muslims. Most hindus of India hate muslims. If hatred for muslims translated into votes , BJP would win comfortably. But there are other issues involved - like inter-caste divides , local issues. Often this plays a bigger role.

It is only when muslims strike and kill hindus like they did in Marad , Godhra , Mumbai ..that hindus vote on basis of religion.

Muslims really underestimate hindus , because most communal riots are started by muslims. Hindus only react. But when they react , they act with such ferocity that the muslims immediately surrender and give up. The pandus of the police force also do their bit for the hindu cause. Interesting thing is , every time muslims attack , hindus forget their caste/linguistic/class differences and fight back as one.

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Shridar ,

1. You are out of touch with the reality in India and south India.
2. You underestimate south Indians.

I am surprised that the folks here find my opinion unique to say the least. I am only writing on chowk what you would hear in any typical steert , market or college canteen conversation in India..

Go to Indian dominated websites like sulekha , or Indian chat rooms like yahoo ...I would be among the more sober guys there...

It is a fact that muslims are despised by the common man in India.

Also I find it funny you base your opinion on a film award show. This India-Pakistan friendship thing is superficial . It means nothing.

I am a big fan of Shar Rukh Khan too....but I dont see him as a muslim. Just an Indian. One need not be worried about muslims who have `made it` in India. Those who have succeeded in achieving professional success. Those like Shah Rukh , Abdul Kalam , Premji . Mention should also be given to the scores of doctors , software professionals , IAS/IPS officers , soldiers in Indian Army who are muslim. These guys have been successful because they are first and foremost secular and kept obscurantist Islam at bay. They take pride in being Indian first.

But they are only a minority within a minority. One should be very wary of the majority within what is a sizeable minority.

(By the way , the majority within the minority calls the minority within the minority as `sarkari muslims .)

re:#421 by bbabu
(We (Indians and Pakistanis) are living in an extra-ordinary divided society - fragmented on religious, linguistic, caste, socio-economic lines.

Establishing a representative government was a huge first step for India. Contrary to what some pundits on Chowk say about economic progress under dictatorships representative government is critical to the long term legitimacy of a government and a nation. )
I have always felt that India is a democracy but not an enlightened democracy. Gujarat riot proves my point.
Majority rule in India seems to mean: do whatever you want and nobody will question you. So, u have Thackeray who behaved like Hitler when in Power, Lalloo Yadav, Jayalalitha all doing the same during power, forgetting that the power was bestowed by the people in the first place.
With increasing awareness, education one hopes Indians will not tolerate this attitude anymore.
Sridhar

re:#430 by Prashant123
(Absolutely justified and necessary reaction. So 13% of the dead are non-muslim or hindu. It is totally imperative that for every one hindu killed , atleast 7 muslims are slaughtered. Else , knowing muslims , the ratio would be in reverse.)
Prashant,
I am ashamed of you.
You can`t be a South Indian. South Indians are not this vengeful. You are perhaps a Gujarati. Perhaps u have some political affiliations.
In any case, with your kind of atttitude, one cannot hope to build a civil society in India where everybody can live in peace.
Also, i disagree when you say that all IMs are ISI agents. I just finished seeing the Zee Film awards held in London on my Dish (i live in USA). I saw many proud IMs coming on stage to receive awards. The proudest of them was perhaps Shahrukh Khan. Would u incude him also as an ISI agent?
The equation between India and Pak is fast changing. I saw a glimpse of this new comaraderie when Indian and Pak flags were displayed together on a giant screen. People in general want peace. This thought of IMs being ISI agents is becoming oldfashioned, given the fast changing relationship between the 2 nations. Recognise this new reality and change your mindset.
That is all i have to say.
Sridhar

re:#431 by Prashant123
Prashant,
I think u are trying to defend the indefensible.
Even if one were to concede that this was not premeditated and that there was a spontaneous outrage among the majority community against muslims, it still begs the question: what the fukc was Modi doing during rioting?
As a C.M of the state, he is responsible for safeguarding the life and property of the people of his state. The guy not only looked the other way but his party members and local goons actively colluded with the Police in targeting the minorities.
The question is not: how it started, whether trai door was locked from inside or outside. The quesiont is: how did the C.M of a state allow this to happen? Even if the muslims were responsible for the killing of hindus inside the train, the law of land should have taken its natural course. That is how democracy gets strengthened. That is how people respect the law.
India has much to learn from USA where, even after 9/11, the public outrage did not result in any mass rioting. Would u have blamed if Americans went out rioting and killing the muslims of middle eastern origin. That did not happen. The issue was debated endlessly, problems identified and now corrective measures are being taken.

One can read all about the riots at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Gujarat_violence
Read the damning report by the Human Rights Watch Group:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/
Read the horrific tales of inhumanity perpetrated, tale such as these:
(Even pregnant women were not spared. In some cases, their bellies were cut open and the fetus was pulled out before the women were killed.99 A gravedigger at a mass grave site next to the Dariyakhan Ghummat camp in the Shahibaug area told Human Rights Watch: ``There were at least three pregnant women and one of the fetuses was partially hanging out. We had to stick it back in before burial. If the fetus was completely removed then we left it out but still buried it with the mother.``100

A woman who washed the bodies of female victims before burial at the same site told Human Rights Watch about the conditions of the bodies upon arrival:

I washed the ladies` bodies before burial. Some bodies had heads missing, some had hands missing, some were like coal, you would touch them and they would crumble. Some women`s bodies had been split down the middle. I washed seventeen bodies on March 2, only one was completely intact. All had been burned, many had been split down the middle. On March 3 fifteen more bodies came. Then I just threw water over them, I couldn`t stand to be around them anymore)
See if this can rouse some feelings of remorse and shame in you and others who are saying that this crime was never committed.
It is stupid and useless to defend an inhuman act.
Gujarat carnage has been labelled a Crime against Humanity. If the numbers were higher, it would qualify as a holocaust.
Sridhar

``The train doors were locked from inside. ``

Lie. Doors were locked from outside.

``No Muslim bodies were found inside. ``

Thats right. Only bodied of 60 hindus. 35 of them women and children.

``We do not know who burnt the train. Independent forensic investigators have failed to find out. ``

Presence of the 2000 odd muslim mob outside the coach is far too much of a co-incidence.

``After all, you`re just waiting for a bearded man to be at the scene when lots of Hindus die so you can rape, torture and mutilate.``

How about 2000 odd bearded men at the wrong place at the wrong time ? Not easy to organise in a small town like Godhra.


``Your glorious traditions have filled your minds with these elevated spiritual desires.``

Nothing to do with religion or traditions or spirituality. Just a matter of survival. Kill before you are killed. And if any of your party is killed , take revenge. Punitive ruthless and brutal reaction is the only thing that will make muslims think twice before they go on their kafeer-busting adventures.