The Criminal as Victim
Farzana Versey March 21, 2005
#387 Posted by masanamuthu on March 26, 2005 9:19:05 am
Re: # 374
``It is not a simple question; it is devious. As a true blue ‘pseudo-secularist’ one can say yes, but why the heck should we be bringing in Saudi Arabia only to justify Modi? ..``
On second reading, I have doubts.. if you are saying ``yes`` to ``religious freedom`` in Saudi or you are just generally alluding to some true blue ``pseudo-secularists``..
Why can`t you come out with what you really think about ``religious freedom`` in Saudi and the general ``islamic`` world, so that others in this forum might see your opinion and form their opinion of you accordingly.
(.i.e.) directly answer this question..
Do you support ``religious freedom`` in Saudi ??.. A simple ``yes`` or a ``no`` ..
``It is not a simple question; it is devious. As a true blue ‘pseudo-secularist’ one can say yes, but why the heck should we be bringing in Saudi Arabia only to justify Modi? ..``
On second reading, I have doubts.. if you are saying ``yes`` to ``religious freedom`` in Saudi or you are just generally alluding to some true blue ``pseudo-secularists``..
Why can`t you come out with what you really think about ``religious freedom`` in Saudi and the general ``islamic`` world, so that others in this forum might see your opinion and form their opinion of you accordingly.
(.i.e.) directly answer this question..
Do you support ``religious freedom`` in Saudi ??.. A simple ``yes`` or a ``no`` ..
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#386 Posted by masanamuthu on March 26, 2005 9:18:51 am
Re: # 374
``It is not a simple question; it is devious. As a true blue ‘pseudo-secularist’ one can say yes, but why the heck should we be bringing in Saudi Arabia only to justify Modi? ..``
On second reading, I have doubts.. if you are saying ``yes`` to ``religious freedom`` in Saudi or you are just generally alluding to some true blue ``pseudo-secularists``..
Why can`t you come out with what you really think about ``religious freedom`` in Saudi and the general ``islamic`` world, so that others in this forum might see your opinion and form their opinion of you accordingly.
(.i.e.) directly answer this question..
Do you support ``religious freedom`` in Saudi ??.. A simple ``yes`` or a ``no`` ..
``It is not a simple question; it is devious. As a true blue ‘pseudo-secularist’ one can say yes, but why the heck should we be bringing in Saudi Arabia only to justify Modi? ..``
On second reading, I have doubts.. if you are saying ``yes`` to ``religious freedom`` in Saudi or you are just generally alluding to some true blue ``pseudo-secularists``..
Why can`t you come out with what you really think about ``religious freedom`` in Saudi and the general ``islamic`` world, so that others in this forum might see your opinion and form their opinion of you accordingly.
(.i.e.) directly answer this question..
Do you support ``religious freedom`` in Saudi ??.. A simple ``yes`` or a ``no`` ..
#385 Posted by masanamuthu on March 26, 2005 8:44:35 am
Re: # 381
``This is all justification for the unjustifiable.
In Nagore I met a fisherman`s daughter who is finishing her BA in History and plans to go on to law school. Her father and mother have no education to speak of and her brothers stopped going to school by the time they were in the 8th Standard.
Tell me, who and what was HER role model in her family? Or in the entire fishing village for that matter?..``
good to know that.. but what are you trying to say??... reservations are good catalysts if used effectively and reach the right people.. the desrving ones like the one in your example..
``This is all justification for the unjustifiable.
In Nagore I met a fisherman`s daughter who is finishing her BA in History and plans to go on to law school. Her father and mother have no education to speak of and her brothers stopped going to school by the time they were in the 8th Standard.
Tell me, who and what was HER role model in her family? Or in the entire fishing village for that matter?..``
good to know that.. but what are you trying to say??... reservations are good catalysts if used effectively and reach the right people.. the desrving ones like the one in your example..
#384 Posted by kardesh on March 26, 2005 8:39:27 am
FV #374 {``I know my name is long (but it is not Arabic!), so initials would do``}
FV, I meant no disrespect :) Yes, I will continue to read you.
FV, I meant no disrespect :) Yes, I will continue to read you.
#383 Posted by kardesh on March 26, 2005 8:33:15 am
Re: # 379
harimau,
Using your logic about the implication of Chaiwallas, why didn`t the right-wing fanatics burn a single Starbucks in revenge?
harimau,
Using your logic about the implication of Chaiwallas, why didn`t the right-wing fanatics burn a single Starbucks in revenge?
#382 Posted by Prashant123 on March 26, 2005 6:59:02 am
Modi gets an unlikely supporter, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar
Aziz Haniffa in Florida | March 26, 2005 17:37 IST
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, founder of the Art of Living Foundation and the International Association for Human Values, spoke at the annual convention of the Asian American Hotel Owners Convention on Thursday.
He provided the organisation with a show of support for its controversial decision to invite Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi and took a dig both at the Bush administration for declaring Modi persona non grata in the US and the coalition of groups that successfully lobbied to bring about the US action to ban Modi`s entry.
Sri Sri, during a long interactive session with nearly 4,000 delegates attending the convention, was asked a loaded question in the midst of a spiritual discourse.
Asked to give his comments on how he views Modi, he said, after what seemed like a pregnant pause, ``I don`t comment on individuals because individuals are just part of one wholeness.``
Callous US, guilty Bush
Sri Sri, who recently spoke at the United Nations and the World Economic Forum in Davos, said the thoughts that come to every individual and the way an individual acts are not governed by collectiveness consciousness. ``Everybody is what you call a nimitta -- an instrument of the divine,`` he said.
But before all this could sink in, he asserted, ``So branding someone good or bad or right or wrong and boycotting them is meaningless is useless.``
Modi calls off UK visit
The audience exploded in applause.
``Every individual has done something good for society,`` he continued, ``and knowingly or unknowingly something bad might happen from an individual. So when someone does something wrong, don`t hold him a culprit all his life.``
Sri Sri noted that he and his followers `we go and teach our program in the prisons around the world and I look into the eyes of all those prisoners... they are beautiful people... they are nice people.``
Modi `live` at Madison
He argued ``situations, circumstances, might have made them do something, but we should be beyond all these little happenings.``
Sri Sri asserted that `I haven`t seen one bad human being on the planet. So, I don`t find any reason to excommunicate any one person. It`s really foolish.`
He acknowledged that `actually, I also got a letter asking me not to come to this conference -- to boycott it. I said, in my world there is nobody I can boycott and I am not going to do it. I am just going to come.``
`No racist undertones in visa denial`
The audience went wild.
Sri Sri then went on to talk about the unprecedented progress that was occurring in Gujarat under the Modi administration. He noted that more than 40,000 dams had been constructed in just one year. ``The water level has come up in Gujarat so much. People are so happy,`` he said.
``In the villages for the first time in many years there is enough water for the people -- even in drought-hit areas. So see the positive things that are happening and tell the person all the nice things the person has done. You will uplift the goodness in people,`` he said.
`Decision taken at the highest levels`
Sri Sri reiterated, apparently referring to the sustained campaign against Modi, ``If you always keep telling a person of all the negative things all the time, the person gets frustrated.``
Aziz Haniffa in Florida | March 26, 2005 17:37 IST
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, founder of the Art of Living Foundation and the International Association for Human Values, spoke at the annual convention of the Asian American Hotel Owners Convention on Thursday.
He provided the organisation with a show of support for its controversial decision to invite Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi and took a dig both at the Bush administration for declaring Modi persona non grata in the US and the coalition of groups that successfully lobbied to bring about the US action to ban Modi`s entry.
Sri Sri, during a long interactive session with nearly 4,000 delegates attending the convention, was asked a loaded question in the midst of a spiritual discourse.
Asked to give his comments on how he views Modi, he said, after what seemed like a pregnant pause, ``I don`t comment on individuals because individuals are just part of one wholeness.``
Callous US, guilty Bush
Sri Sri, who recently spoke at the United Nations and the World Economic Forum in Davos, said the thoughts that come to every individual and the way an individual acts are not governed by collectiveness consciousness. ``Everybody is what you call a nimitta -- an instrument of the divine,`` he said.
But before all this could sink in, he asserted, ``So branding someone good or bad or right or wrong and boycotting them is meaningless is useless.``
Modi calls off UK visit
The audience exploded in applause.
``Every individual has done something good for society,`` he continued, ``and knowingly or unknowingly something bad might happen from an individual. So when someone does something wrong, don`t hold him a culprit all his life.``
Sri Sri noted that he and his followers `we go and teach our program in the prisons around the world and I look into the eyes of all those prisoners... they are beautiful people... they are nice people.``
Modi `live` at Madison
He argued ``situations, circumstances, might have made them do something, but we should be beyond all these little happenings.``
Sri Sri asserted that `I haven`t seen one bad human being on the planet. So, I don`t find any reason to excommunicate any one person. It`s really foolish.`
He acknowledged that `actually, I also got a letter asking me not to come to this conference -- to boycott it. I said, in my world there is nobody I can boycott and I am not going to do it. I am just going to come.``
`No racist undertones in visa denial`
The audience went wild.
Sri Sri then went on to talk about the unprecedented progress that was occurring in Gujarat under the Modi administration. He noted that more than 40,000 dams had been constructed in just one year. ``The water level has come up in Gujarat so much. People are so happy,`` he said.
``In the villages for the first time in many years there is enough water for the people -- even in drought-hit areas. So see the positive things that are happening and tell the person all the nice things the person has done. You will uplift the goodness in people,`` he said.
`Decision taken at the highest levels`
Sri Sri reiterated, apparently referring to the sustained campaign against Modi, ``If you always keep telling a person of all the negative things all the time, the person gets frustrated.``
#381 Posted by harimau on March 26, 2005 6:45:32 am
Ref masanamuthu #380
[There is no intellectual supremacy completely based on birth etc.. etc.. It depends on a lot of factors including genetic factors / familial environment / schools etc.. Brahmins and upper castes having dominated the education field for so long naturally have an advantage in all the factors while the others don`t. But it`s slowly changing. I used to score centums in Maths all through out my schooling and have good analytical skills. When I think about it, I realise my dad/ both grand-dads being accountants might have played a role.]
This is all justification for the unjustifiable.
In Nagore I met a fisherman`s daughter who is finishing her BA in History and plans to go on to law school. Her father and mother have no education to speak of and her brothers stopped going to school by the time they were in the 8th Standard.
Tell me, who and what was HER role model in her family? Or in the entire fishing village for that matter?
[There is no intellectual supremacy completely based on birth etc.. etc.. It depends on a lot of factors including genetic factors / familial environment / schools etc.. Brahmins and upper castes having dominated the education field for so long naturally have an advantage in all the factors while the others don`t. But it`s slowly changing. I used to score centums in Maths all through out my schooling and have good analytical skills. When I think about it, I realise my dad/ both grand-dads being accountants might have played a role.]
This is all justification for the unjustifiable.
In Nagore I met a fisherman`s daughter who is finishing her BA in History and plans to go on to law school. Her father and mother have no education to speak of and her brothers stopped going to school by the time they were in the 8th Standard.
Tell me, who and what was HER role model in her family? Or in the entire fishing village for that matter?
#380 Posted by masanamuthu on March 26, 2005 5:49:51 am
Re: # 377
``Every single person who supports the Mandal Commission recommendations, who supports the quota system, is explicitly admitting his inability to compete on merit. Since the persons handicapped by the quota system are the upper castes, intellectual supremacy of the upper castes is conceded by these people, In fact, the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC believe in ``caste supremacy``. Otherwise, they would not turn in their caste certificates instead of their grade sheets when applying for professional colleges, government jobs, scholarships, etc.
The upper castes are perfectly willing to compete on merit. Are you? If not, why not?``
--
Actually, I`m all for merit.. But how do you define it?. I think we had a similar discussion sometime back too.. The times were such that there was no level playing field. If you compare someone with educated parents/uncles/aunts studying in an urban school to a son/daughter of someone who never had an inkling of what education is all about, there is no way that latter can compete and win. Reservations are used to level the playing field a little bit.. I agree that it`s been abused by the vested interests.. The best thing is to kick the creamy layer out and reduce the reservations to a lesser percentage and increase the number of seats..
There is no intellectual supremacy completely based on birth etc.. etc.. It depends on a lot of factors including genetic factors / familial environment / schools etc.. Brahmins and upper castes having dominated the education field for so long naturally have an advantage in all the factors while the others don`t. But it`s slowly changing. I used to score centums in Maths all through out my schooling and have good analytical skills. When I think about it, I realise my dad/ both grand-dads being accountants might have played a role.
If you look at the cutoff marks for top engineering schools/medicine , you`ll find little difference in the OC/BC/MBC categories and all of them are above the 90`th percentile.
I haven`t used any reservations and I`m all for merit.. :-)
``Every single person who supports the Mandal Commission recommendations, who supports the quota system, is explicitly admitting his inability to compete on merit. Since the persons handicapped by the quota system are the upper castes, intellectual supremacy of the upper castes is conceded by these people, In fact, the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC believe in ``caste supremacy``. Otherwise, they would not turn in their caste certificates instead of their grade sheets when applying for professional colleges, government jobs, scholarships, etc.
The upper castes are perfectly willing to compete on merit. Are you? If not, why not?``
--
Actually, I`m all for merit.. But how do you define it?. I think we had a similar discussion sometime back too.. The times were such that there was no level playing field. If you compare someone with educated parents/uncles/aunts studying in an urban school to a son/daughter of someone who never had an inkling of what education is all about, there is no way that latter can compete and win. Reservations are used to level the playing field a little bit.. I agree that it`s been abused by the vested interests.. The best thing is to kick the creamy layer out and reduce the reservations to a lesser percentage and increase the number of seats..
There is no intellectual supremacy completely based on birth etc.. etc.. It depends on a lot of factors including genetic factors / familial environment / schools etc.. Brahmins and upper castes having dominated the education field for so long naturally have an advantage in all the factors while the others don`t. But it`s slowly changing. I used to score centums in Maths all through out my schooling and have good analytical skills. When I think about it, I realise my dad/ both grand-dads being accountants might have played a role.
If you look at the cutoff marks for top engineering schools/medicine , you`ll find little difference in the OC/BC/MBC categories and all of them are above the 90`th percentile.
I haven`t used any reservations and I`m all for merit.. :-)
#379 Posted by harimau on March 26, 2005 5:46:23 am
Ref kardesh #328
[Singularity, Harimau, and others,
You are all educated and intelligent human beings. Please tell me what will it take for you to agree that Mr. Modi needs to be tried for being implicated in the state-sponsored, police-led massacre of innocent human beings in the state of Gujurat?]
Oh, try Modi in a court of law by all means. You won`t convict him though. Would you then accept he is innocent/not guilty? No. We would then be hearing all the talk about miscarriage of justice.
So far, I haven`t heard a single thing relating to Godhra/Gujarat riots that would stand scrutiny.
I still want to know how the Muslim Tea Vendor`s Daughter whose kidnapping led to the Godhra train fire escaped from a carriage locked from the outside.
I want to know, if as the Bannerjee Commission claims that the fire was due to an electrical short, why the carriage was locked from the outside.
I want to know, if as our esteemed investigative reporter suggested that it was a mass suicide attempt by the pilgrims, why the carriage was locked from the outside.
If you can`t find answer to one simple question -- why a carriage in a running train was locked from the outside -- do you expect to find answers to a million questions that will be raised in a trial?
[Singularity, Harimau, and others,
You are all educated and intelligent human beings. Please tell me what will it take for you to agree that Mr. Modi needs to be tried for being implicated in the state-sponsored, police-led massacre of innocent human beings in the state of Gujurat?]
Oh, try Modi in a court of law by all means. You won`t convict him though. Would you then accept he is innocent/not guilty? No. We would then be hearing all the talk about miscarriage of justice.
So far, I haven`t heard a single thing relating to Godhra/Gujarat riots that would stand scrutiny.
I still want to know how the Muslim Tea Vendor`s Daughter whose kidnapping led to the Godhra train fire escaped from a carriage locked from the outside.
I want to know, if as the Bannerjee Commission claims that the fire was due to an electrical short, why the carriage was locked from the outside.
I want to know, if as our esteemed investigative reporter suggested that it was a mass suicide attempt by the pilgrims, why the carriage was locked from the outside.
If you can`t find answer to one simple question -- why a carriage in a running train was locked from the outside -- do you expect to find answers to a million questions that will be raised in a trial?
#378 Posted by harimau on March 26, 2005 5:38:48 am
Ref satyamvada #325
{FYI,
Veerashanmugamoni is a sanskrit based name :) [veera, shad+mukha, mani] }
Yes, I know that quite well. However, that doesn`t make him any more competent! Veerashanmughamoni of Chowk (Soysauce) will be crushed and demand that I call hin karuvattu-kuzhambu instead!
{Even the Rigveda itself is considered to be post-convergence. That is the Rigveda has a mixture of so called ``indo-aryan`` ``dravidian`` linguistic features according to western academics.
Of course, the Indian argument is that all the so called ``indo-aryan`` ``dravidian`` linguistic classification itself is wrong !.}
This is still being argued about so there is no final conclusion. However, there are grammatical constructs that are so different between Tamil and Sanskrit that it would be difficult to conclude that they have the same roots.
{Also, Iyengars are ubhaya-vedantis i.e they use both Sanskrit and Tamil sources. All this, just so that you can correct yourself....}
All I know is I have no problems going to a Vishnu temple whereas most Iyengars resolutely refuse to enter a Siva temple!
{FYI,
Veerashanmugamoni is a sanskrit based name :) [veera, shad+mukha, mani] }
Yes, I know that quite well. However, that doesn`t make him any more competent! Veerashanmughamoni of Chowk (Soysauce) will be crushed and demand that I call hin karuvattu-kuzhambu instead!
{Even the Rigveda itself is considered to be post-convergence. That is the Rigveda has a mixture of so called ``indo-aryan`` ``dravidian`` linguistic features according to western academics.
Of course, the Indian argument is that all the so called ``indo-aryan`` ``dravidian`` linguistic classification itself is wrong !.}
This is still being argued about so there is no final conclusion. However, there are grammatical constructs that are so different between Tamil and Sanskrit that it would be difficult to conclude that they have the same roots.
{Also, Iyengars are ubhaya-vedantis i.e they use both Sanskrit and Tamil sources. All this, just so that you can correct yourself....}
All I know is I have no problems going to a Vishnu temple whereas most Iyengars resolutely refuse to enter a Siva temple!
#377 Posted by harimau on March 26, 2005 5:23:09 am
Ref masanamuthu #321
[Right now, ONLY very few caste supremacists (mostly old folks) believe in this ``caste supremacy`` crap.. I understand those folks. If somethings come for free why deny them..]
Actually, you are wrong.
Every single person who supports the Mandal Commission recommendations, who supports the quota system, is explicitly admitting his inability to compete on merit. Since the persons handicapped by the quota system are the upper castes, intellectual supremacy of the upper castes is conceded by these people, In fact, the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC believe in ``caste supremacy``. Otherwise, they would not turn in their caste certificates instead of their grade sheets when applying for professional colleges, government jobs, scholarships, etc.
The upper castes are perfectly willing to compete on merit. Are you? If not, why not?
[Right now, ONLY very few caste supremacists (mostly old folks) believe in this ``caste supremacy`` crap.. I understand those folks. If somethings come for free why deny them..]
Actually, you are wrong.
Every single person who supports the Mandal Commission recommendations, who supports the quota system, is explicitly admitting his inability to compete on merit. Since the persons handicapped by the quota system are the upper castes, intellectual supremacy of the upper castes is conceded by these people, In fact, the SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC believe in ``caste supremacy``. Otherwise, they would not turn in their caste certificates instead of their grade sheets when applying for professional colleges, government jobs, scholarships, etc.
The upper castes are perfectly willing to compete on merit. Are you? If not, why not?
#376 Posted by masanamuthu on March 26, 2005 4:45:24 am
Re: # 375
Also
``[I want to know what verse those dudes are reciting when they behead people in Iraq.]
Not “Jai Sri Ram”. It is a known fact that you can get people to kill or commit other crimes in the name of religion, nationalism or any ‘ism’…heard the latest? That Gandhian Anna Hazare is embroiled in a corruption case? There is no single ``domain of Islam``…there are several domains that the world may convert into should it wish to do so!..``
--
That was in reply to dost-mittar`s question about ppl who use Quran`s quotes to murder kafirs. Well if you point out the offending verses in any of the Hindu holy scriptures that people use to kill, I think the ``hindus`` would clearly disown those... like they did for ``Manusmriti``. Do you see anyone defending ``Manusmriti`` now except a few caste supremacists..
But unfortunately, very few muslims question the truth of all the verses of Quran and its application to the modern times and even those few are treated as blasphemers and are issued a fatwa against..
Also
``[I want to know what verse those dudes are reciting when they behead people in Iraq.]
Not “Jai Sri Ram”. It is a known fact that you can get people to kill or commit other crimes in the name of religion, nationalism or any ‘ism’…heard the latest? That Gandhian Anna Hazare is embroiled in a corruption case? There is no single ``domain of Islam``…there are several domains that the world may convert into should it wish to do so!..``
--
That was in reply to dost-mittar`s question about ppl who use Quran`s quotes to murder kafirs. Well if you point out the offending verses in any of the Hindu holy scriptures that people use to kill, I think the ``hindus`` would clearly disown those... like they did for ``Manusmriti``. Do you see anyone defending ``Manusmriti`` now except a few caste supremacists..
But unfortunately, very few muslims question the truth of all the verses of Quran and its application to the modern times and even those few are treated as blasphemers and are issued a fatwa against..
#375 Posted by masanamuthu on March 26, 2005 3:46:36 am
Re: # 374
``Why are self-confessed atheists/agnostics so afraid, especially when they claim to be proud of their lower caste credentials? Btw, that is a contradiction of sorts…) ``
I`m surprised you find that contradictory. I`m proud of my birth into a lower caste family, and how does that mean I cannot be an atheist/agnostic/rationalist. Could you explain?.
``Since when has the Saudi mosque gained copyright over the Quran? Muslims the world over do not follow what the Saudi mosque says even in simple acts like spotting of the moon. Besides, a fatwa is not issued on the basis of what is allowed or not allowed in the Quran, but what certain sections may deem to be an insult to the Quran as per their interpretation of it. ``
Also the question is if Bin laden is against the teachings of Quran and his killings have no sanction in Quran, doesn`t that mean he`s insulting the interpretation of Quran of the large ``peaceful`` followers. So why there are no ``fatwas`` from any of the mosques including Saudi?. Spanish mosque issued a ``fatwa`` to save its a**... Because the last time, the spaniards decided to cleanse their soil of islamic influence, it was not pretty..
``It is not a simple question; it is devious. As a true blue ‘pseudo-secularist’ one can say yes, but why the heck should we be bringing in Saudi Arabia only to justify Modi?
You might not be aware of a Muslim who wrote appealing to the community not to slaughter goats on Bakri Eid when it fell on the same date at Mahavir Jayanti because ahimsa is at the core of the latter religion. If you wish to know where this appeal was made and when, you will have to visit your nearest place of worship and make offerings to pray for more power to my pen… ``
hmm.. What`s devious in my simple question.. Folks doyou find anything devious?. maybe I`m missing something.
``Do you support ``religious freedom`` in Saudi Arabia?.``. yes or no.
Well, No one is bringing the issue of ``Saudi`` to justify Modi. This is about the hypocrisy of ``pseduo-secularists`` and the US visa policy of denying visa to Modi for violations of ``religious freedom``..
I think you answered ``yes``. Thanks. I appreciate your support for ``religious freedom`` in Saudi (and I believe in the general `Islamic`` world too). You should be in the forefront in fighting for ``religious freedom`` all over the world. Do write some articles about the plight of Hindus in Bangladesh/Pakistan/Saudi.. blasphemy laws etc..And fight for the right of a Muslim to renounce his/her religion too without being deemed a blasphemer and get killed.
Your example of ``not slaughtering goats`` is wrong. That`s curtailing one`s rights for others. Unless if any of the ``religious rights`` infringe or cause harm to others there should not be any restricitions..
``Why are self-confessed atheists/agnostics so afraid, especially when they claim to be proud of their lower caste credentials? Btw, that is a contradiction of sorts…) ``
I`m surprised you find that contradictory. I`m proud of my birth into a lower caste family, and how does that mean I cannot be an atheist/agnostic/rationalist. Could you explain?.
``Since when has the Saudi mosque gained copyright over the Quran? Muslims the world over do not follow what the Saudi mosque says even in simple acts like spotting of the moon. Besides, a fatwa is not issued on the basis of what is allowed or not allowed in the Quran, but what certain sections may deem to be an insult to the Quran as per their interpretation of it. ``
Also the question is if Bin laden is against the teachings of Quran and his killings have no sanction in Quran, doesn`t that mean he`s insulting the interpretation of Quran of the large ``peaceful`` followers. So why there are no ``fatwas`` from any of the mosques including Saudi?. Spanish mosque issued a ``fatwa`` to save its a**... Because the last time, the spaniards decided to cleanse their soil of islamic influence, it was not pretty..
``It is not a simple question; it is devious. As a true blue ‘pseudo-secularist’ one can say yes, but why the heck should we be bringing in Saudi Arabia only to justify Modi?
You might not be aware of a Muslim who wrote appealing to the community not to slaughter goats on Bakri Eid when it fell on the same date at Mahavir Jayanti because ahimsa is at the core of the latter religion. If you wish to know where this appeal was made and when, you will have to visit your nearest place of worship and make offerings to pray for more power to my pen… ``
hmm.. What`s devious in my simple question.. Folks doyou find anything devious?. maybe I`m missing something.
``Do you support ``religious freedom`` in Saudi Arabia?.``. yes or no.
Well, No one is bringing the issue of ``Saudi`` to justify Modi. This is about the hypocrisy of ``pseduo-secularists`` and the US visa policy of denying visa to Modi for violations of ``religious freedom``..
I think you answered ``yes``. Thanks. I appreciate your support for ``religious freedom`` in Saudi (and I believe in the general `Islamic`` world too). You should be in the forefront in fighting for ``religious freedom`` all over the world. Do write some articles about the plight of Hindus in Bangladesh/Pakistan/Saudi.. blasphemy laws etc..And fight for the right of a Muslim to renounce his/her religion too without being deemed a blasphemer and get killed.
Your example of ``not slaughtering goats`` is wrong. That`s curtailing one`s rights for others. Unless if any of the ``religious rights`` infringe or cause harm to others there should not be any restricitions..
#374 Posted by FarzanaVersey on March 26, 2005 12:46:06 am
This board is on its way out, so I am happy with how things went here despite (because of?) my absence…
#318 by masanamuthu:
[I want to know what verse those dudes are reciting when they behead people in Iraq.]
Not “Jai Sri Ram”. It is a known fact that you can get people to kill or commit other crimes in the name of religion, nationalism or any ‘ism’…heard the latest? That Gandhian Anna Hazare is embroiled in a corruption case? There is no single ``domain of Islam``…there are several domains that the world may convert into should it wish to do so! (Why are self-confessed atheists/agnostics so afraid, especially when they claim to be proud of their lower caste credentials? Btw, that is a contradiction of sorts…)
[Also ask them if it`s NOT allowed in Quran why don`t the Saudi mosque issue a ``fatwa`` against Bin laden and co.. ]
Since when has the Saudi mosque gained copyright over the Quran? Muslims the world over do not follow what the Saudi mosque says even in simple acts like spotting of the moon. Besides, a fatwa is not issued on the basis of what is allowed or not allowed in the Quran, but what certain sections may deem to be an insult to the Quran as per their interpretation of it.
[Also ask your friends if they support ``religious freedom`` in Saudi Arabia and please let me know the answer too..
With Farzana madam hesitant to reply to this simple question, I think this should go into the top of my list.. ]
It is not a simple question; it is devious. As a true blue ‘pseudo-secularist’ one can say yes, but why the heck should we be bringing in Saudi Arabia only to justify Modi?
You might not be aware of a Muslim who wrote appealing to the community not to slaughter goats on Bakri Eid when it fell on the same date at Mahavir Jayanti because ahimsa is at the core of the latter religion. If you wish to know where this appeal was made and when, you will have to visit your nearest place of worship and make offerings to pray for more power to my pen…
- - -
#317 by rsridhar:
[Muslims in India today lead a ghettoed existence. Barring the few who have made a name in Arts, Cinema, they are marginalized from the mainstream. For eg, the number of muslims in IITs, govt jobs is all abysmal and is a thing of concern. I have talked about this in the past. Farzana bibi does not like to talk about such matters. But these matters are very important for the muslim community.
Try and focus on the reality and find out why muslims in India are marginalized. Is it your religion? Is it something else?]
I wrote about this in ‘The Doll’s House’ (http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004135&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1) but it did not seem to suit other points of view.
Anyhow, I do not wish to dig into those posts. Just wanted to say thank you…I reckon you are smart enough to know what it is for.
- - -
#322 by arjun_m on March 25, 2005 6:10am PT
[When was the last time you heard of a muslim rally demanding the good stuff? education and all that....like never? i`ll bet you`ve heard of plenty of rallies against the iraq war or some other ummah cause-du-jour.. ]
Oh yeah, and we have Hindus, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs take out rallies for education and health care and clean water and nana-nani parks, and love lanes…and good stuff like that topped with frothy cappuccino???
[maybe they`re marginalized because they chose to live in ghettos?]
In Mumbai there are designated areas where Gujaratis, South Indians, Parsis, Sikhs live. Would you call these ghettos? Is that why when a Muslim woman goes to trendy restaurants she is called elitist because she doe not meet with this stereotype? Too bad. Time for you to smell the coffee.
PS: Please do stop spreading canards about me that you know nothing about. I DO NOT love to drive…
- - -
#259 by kardesh:
[Fazzo (I take the liberty!)]
With all this talk of freedom around, what can I say? I know my name is long (but it is not Arabic!), so initials would do. I have seen some cheesy and sleazy play on words of my name and am not comfortable with either. Hope you still read me!
PS: Are you KKKhurram?
- - -
AND…even though Harimau is choosing to look the other way, I think his statement, “I am still looking for unchaste women in this Age of Kali, in case any female readers are reading this!” is rather offensive.
However, I think it is prudent to ask the Chowk editors to add to their interact guidelines one more proviso. I have drafted one for your kind perusal …here it is: “Although we at Chowk do not agree with concepts like unchaste women, we are aware that levels of purity exist even among molecular particles. In this spirit of freedom of choice, we urge those interactors who look for unchaste women OR men here to keep us abreast of the progress of the same. Should a deal be struck, Chowk shall hold copyright over the relationship and its consequences. Should anything tangible be produced thereof, by way of offspring or creative effort, Chowk reserves the right to assess the purity of the former and in the later case all royalties accruing from the success of the venture shall be used for the cause of trying to bring together other pure and unchaste folks who do not have the skills or forum to express such desires. Being a responsible website, Chowk would like to keep its doors open for all unchaste people irrespective of race, nationality, colour, caste, religion, gender. As a special incentive, there is an early bird scroll of honour, to be named after the person who started this trend: ‘The Harimau napaak ratna’ (we have tried to use four languages in this one honour to appease at least four linguistic groups). We are happy to be associated with this venture.”
Happy Holi and be happy with Easter bunnies…unless some of you get luckier :)
FV
#318 by masanamuthu:
[I want to know what verse those dudes are reciting when they behead people in Iraq.]
Not “Jai Sri Ram”. It is a known fact that you can get people to kill or commit other crimes in the name of religion, nationalism or any ‘ism’…heard the latest? That Gandhian Anna Hazare is embroiled in a corruption case? There is no single ``domain of Islam``…there are several domains that the world may convert into should it wish to do so! (Why are self-confessed atheists/agnostics so afraid, especially when they claim to be proud of their lower caste credentials? Btw, that is a contradiction of sorts…)
[Also ask them if it`s NOT allowed in Quran why don`t the Saudi mosque issue a ``fatwa`` against Bin laden and co.. ]
Since when has the Saudi mosque gained copyright over the Quran? Muslims the world over do not follow what the Saudi mosque says even in simple acts like spotting of the moon. Besides, a fatwa is not issued on the basis of what is allowed or not allowed in the Quran, but what certain sections may deem to be an insult to the Quran as per their interpretation of it.
[Also ask your friends if they support ``religious freedom`` in Saudi Arabia and please let me know the answer too..
With Farzana madam hesitant to reply to this simple question, I think this should go into the top of my list.. ]
It is not a simple question; it is devious. As a true blue ‘pseudo-secularist’ one can say yes, but why the heck should we be bringing in Saudi Arabia only to justify Modi?
You might not be aware of a Muslim who wrote appealing to the community not to slaughter goats on Bakri Eid when it fell on the same date at Mahavir Jayanti because ahimsa is at the core of the latter religion. If you wish to know where this appeal was made and when, you will have to visit your nearest place of worship and make offerings to pray for more power to my pen…
- - -
#317 by rsridhar:
[Muslims in India today lead a ghettoed existence. Barring the few who have made a name in Arts, Cinema, they are marginalized from the mainstream. For eg, the number of muslims in IITs, govt jobs is all abysmal and is a thing of concern. I have talked about this in the past. Farzana bibi does not like to talk about such matters. But these matters are very important for the muslim community.
Try and focus on the reality and find out why muslims in India are marginalized. Is it your religion? Is it something else?]
I wrote about this in ‘The Doll’s House’ (http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004135&channel=civic%20center&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1) but it did not seem to suit other points of view.
Anyhow, I do not wish to dig into those posts. Just wanted to say thank you…I reckon you are smart enough to know what it is for.
- - -
#322 by arjun_m on March 25, 2005 6:10am PT
[When was the last time you heard of a muslim rally demanding the good stuff? education and all that....like never? i`ll bet you`ve heard of plenty of rallies against the iraq war or some other ummah cause-du-jour.. ]
Oh yeah, and we have Hindus, Christians, Parsis, Sikhs take out rallies for education and health care and clean water and nana-nani parks, and love lanes…and good stuff like that topped with frothy cappuccino???
[maybe they`re marginalized because they chose to live in ghettos?]
In Mumbai there are designated areas where Gujaratis, South Indians, Parsis, Sikhs live. Would you call these ghettos? Is that why when a Muslim woman goes to trendy restaurants she is called elitist because she doe not meet with this stereotype? Too bad. Time for you to smell the coffee.
PS: Please do stop spreading canards about me that you know nothing about. I DO NOT love to drive…
- - -
#259 by kardesh:
[Fazzo (I take the liberty!)]
With all this talk of freedom around, what can I say? I know my name is long (but it is not Arabic!), so initials would do. I have seen some cheesy and sleazy play on words of my name and am not comfortable with either. Hope you still read me!
PS: Are you KKKhurram?
- - -
AND…even though Harimau is choosing to look the other way, I think his statement, “I am still looking for unchaste women in this Age of Kali, in case any female readers are reading this!” is rather offensive.
However, I think it is prudent to ask the Chowk editors to add to their interact guidelines one more proviso. I have drafted one for your kind perusal …here it is: “Although we at Chowk do not agree with concepts like unchaste women, we are aware that levels of purity exist even among molecular particles. In this spirit of freedom of choice, we urge those interactors who look for unchaste women OR men here to keep us abreast of the progress of the same. Should a deal be struck, Chowk shall hold copyright over the relationship and its consequences. Should anything tangible be produced thereof, by way of offspring or creative effort, Chowk reserves the right to assess the purity of the former and in the later case all royalties accruing from the success of the venture shall be used for the cause of trying to bring together other pure and unchaste folks who do not have the skills or forum to express such desires. Being a responsible website, Chowk would like to keep its doors open for all unchaste people irrespective of race, nationality, colour, caste, religion, gender. As a special incentive, there is an early bird scroll of honour, to be named after the person who started this trend: ‘The Harimau napaak ratna’ (we have tried to use four languages in this one honour to appease at least four linguistic groups). We are happy to be associated with this venture.”
Happy Holi and be happy with Easter bunnies…unless some of you get luckier :)
FV
#373 Posted by Tupac on March 25, 2005 9:53:10 pm
Hi Dalit and thanks for posting. I am glad that you have found a community where you will be able to interact as an equal. Here`s a pointed question. Have you interacted with the reps of communities whose special history is RACIAL oppression - which is what Dalits face? Diasporic Africans all fall in this category. US, UK, Caribbean. B. R. Ambedkar met A. Philip Randoplh, an African-American labour organizer in New York, and this influenced him tremendously. Indians owe their (theoretically wonderful) constitution to this man, and by extension, everyone who influenced him.
Links I have found interesting:
http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-uditraj110105.htm
http://www.africanbynature.com/eyes/openeyes_afrodalit.html
http://www.idsn.org/pdf/Africa/Africasum.pdf
http://www.saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/runoko19.htm
Links I have found interesting:
http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-uditraj110105.htm
http://www.africanbynature.com/eyes/openeyes_afrodalit.html
http://www.idsn.org/pdf/Africa/Africasum.pdf
http://www.saxakali.com/Saxakali-Publications/runoko19.htm
#372 Posted by KaalChakra on March 25, 2005 8:07:51 pm
I understood that. LOL
It`s good that God hasn`t heard of Chowk. He would wonder if the human being was such a wise idea.
It`s good that God hasn`t heard of Chowk. He would wonder if the human being was such a wise idea.
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