The Criminal as Victim

re:#17 by Urstruly
The interesting point you made: In Pak, the public is against US while the rulers side with that country and it is the other way round. Not true. In India, democratically elected rulers do what the public want. Public in India is very pro-USA.
Indians in India love USA because it is perceived as a free nation and many Indians who have prospered in USA have brought back good tales about America. Most Indians are not plagued by the prejudices that inflict Pakis. Pakis view USA as a satan who is allied with Israel to destroy the muslim world. Nothing suggests that this is true but this perception persists in Pak and much of the muslim world. There is also a lot of anti-semitism in Pak for no reason at all. Israel has never harmed Pak`s interest. It is all about wrong ideology.
Sridhar

There are two separate issues here: one is the US govt`s stance on how to deal with human rights violations. The US being one of the biggest violators of human rights outside its borders, has no moral authority to tell others what to do. Its position on human rights violations is driven by and large by internal political compulsions and external strategic interests. That`s why you see free markets and democracy seamlessly interchanged depending on the situation. The overriding consideration is free market ideology with democracy and human rights serving as nothing more than ideological props. Therefore, Modi would be a perfect ally, he being a proponent of free markets except that he is a small-time politician not warranting the alienation of internal critics.
The second issue has to do with NRIs who see no accountability for what happened in Gujarat and are willing to take whatever action is within their reach to buck the man. I support them fully in this matter. Democracy with no rule of law is no virtue and Modi should be hounded out of everywhere except for the tiny little corner he occupies in Ahmedabad.

re:#21 by ferozk
``I tend to favor this point of view, because in the next 25 years, India`s increasing economy will make India into a major rival of the United States.``
I respect u for your objectivity but u seem to be slipping. you are totally off the mark in your evaluation.
India is no threat to US at all. Not in near future, not in the distant future. In 25 years, India`s GDP would be just enough to equal Spain`s. That would in itself be a great achievement. What that means is that India would by then be a decent middle income country.
You are right in saying that there will be a competition between India and China to dominate the Indian Ocean. China is right now cut off from Indian Ocean but hopes to gain access thr` Gwadar naval port. It is developing a blue water navy for the purpose. All the report that i have read suggests that US is not averse to India developing its Navy to be able to protect US interests and the interests of its allies (Singapore, Japan, South Korea who feel threatened by increasing Chinese presence). US may delegate this job to India to protect the Malacca straits in future.
US is against the Oil pipeline deal because Iran is seen to be proliferating nuclear weapons and there is tremendous pressure from the Jewish (pro-Israeli) lobby to stop Iran. An Oil pipleline at this juncture complicates matters for US if it were to act against Iran in future. India may have to look elsewhere for Gas.
US-India defense cooperation is going well. It started in good earnest in 2002 (read about it in Rediff: http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/may/29spec.htm) and has reached a stage now when US is ready to part with sophisticated nuclear technology to India (as part of the NSSP Next Step in Strategic Partnership) for civilian use. India`s energy needs may be better met using nuclear technology if it can harness Thorium which is abundant in Kerala. Both Pak and Iran are unreliabel as they are ruled by dictatoria and despotic regimes. This despite the fact that it makes eminent sense to have an Oil pipeline connecting Iran to India and extending it to China or Burma, making all a partner in the same project. That looks like a pipedream now.
Sridhar

re:#32 by rozaiba
You are right on dot. But that is never going to happen. India, in its 50 plus years of existence as a free nation, has never prosecuted any political leader for any crime. This does not mean leaders do not commit crimes but popularity among masses seem to give them an unwritten license to get away with even crimes (eg Thackeray, Congress ruffians who were involved in Sikh riots etc). This has nothing to do with political party in power. Leaders are just afraid to walk on the path of accountability, fearing what the consequences might be. And, Indian Judiciary is powerless to do anything.
Sridhar

For the ``pseudo-secularists`` here at chowk.

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HOWTO win over ``pseudo secularists``

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Except a few hardcore ``jihadis``, many of the ``pseudo secularists`` are just ``innocent`` and wish ``good`` things for India. They don`t carry any ill will against Hindus / India. (many of them are hindus) . They have this ``naive`` utopian notion of all religions being the same and assume that every religion preaches love / tolerance towards other beliefs etc..
I would like to suggest few steps for enlightening them on the real dangers of aligning themselves with the islamofascists and make them see reason.

DONT`s

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1. DO NOT accuse them of being ``anti-national``.

2. DO NOT defend the ``caste system`` as practised now based on ``birth``. It`s inherently wrong / repressive / demeaning for the present times and a system that needs to be done away with. This is the stick that they beat the ``Hindus`` with all the time.

3. DO NOT defend the ``bad things`` associated with ``Hinduism`` like ``untouchability`` / ``sati`` etc..(Note: point them out that in independent India, all these things are illegal and the society is striving hard to overcome these evils and almost successful.)


DO`s

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1. DO ask them if they have read other religious books and know what`s written there...?. A good example will be Quran and it`s treatment of women/non-believers/prisoners of war?.

2. DO ask them why should they consider the RSS as communal, and the Muslim league as secular. (Note: point them out the stupidity of the Ramakrishna Mission claiming it to be a minority org. in order to avoid getting banned, while the `Saudi`` funded ``tableegi-jamat`` is ``arabising`` the native people and is promoting hatred and building more and more ``madressahs``)

3. DO ask them if there is something wrong in implementing uniform civil code?. And are they not guilty of preventing the Muslim women from getting their rights like those of Hindu women. (Note: point them out the success stories of women in modern india, the best case being the employment of more than 30% in the IT industry and almost all of them are Hindu/christian.)

4. DO ask them if the fear of a second ``partition`` of the country on religious grounds is really valid or not. and what is wrong in asking people to join the mainstream..(Note: point them out the partition that occurred on 1947, when the Muslims thought they can`t live with their Hindu neighbors and carved out a country on their own)

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Re: # 66
Soysauce, I hear you about the US being the biggest violator of human rights. Within and outside their borders. I mean - they have a massive prison population that`s making toothbrushes and potty seats for America and the world - slave labour (and wouldn`t you know they`re mostly black and Latino, and probably now, Arab) in the middle of the ``free world``. Its always hard for me to know how exactly to separate out the various threads of these issues. I usually wish they are all connected. And I think in the case of saffron, Republican, pro-privatization racist NRIs there`s a seamless coming together.

Of course I *completely* recognize that fanatical American Christians probably played a part in denying Modi a visa. But I have to think - do we want more Modis in India or more Ralph Reed clones hellbent on cultivating religious consumerism and religious racism and religious misogyny, homophobia etc?? Its a TOUGH one, and I`m mad at the reality that makes one ask this question.

#70 by Tupac on March 21, 2005 8:14pm PT


they have a massive prison population that`s making toothbrushes and potty seats for America and the world - slave labour (and wouldn`t you know they`re mostly black and Latino, and probably now, Arab)


And India doesn`t have a massive prison population because people like modi aren`t really prosecuted....

And here`s a newsflash for you...the majority people in prisons are....criminals....


And I think in the case of saffron, Republican, pro-privatization racist NRIs there`s a seamless coming together.


excuse me comrade...i have a klan rally i have to attend....

Tupac,

I hope you are below 20-25 years in age, otherwise its quite sad.

Ref amit #23

[Irrespective of the US decision, from a moral perspective it is an utter shame that India has not prosecuted Modi. He should be in jail rather than being a chief minister. The Congress govt in the center should actively pursue criminal charges against this monster and get him out of circulation.]

Yes. We should prosecute Narendra Modi.

But before that, let us kill the Sikhs, let us kill the Sikhs, let us KILL the Sikhs! That seems to be the only non-prosecutable crime in India. So let us kill the Sikhs!

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Ref rsridhar #61

[In USA, unlike India, religious freedom is taken seriously. It is this freedom that allows rich Gujaratis in USA to build temples and keep their culture alive.]

Have you tried to actually build a temple anywhere in the US? Do you know how many local rules, zoning regulations, etc., are trotted out to prevent the temple from being built and THEN you get the people venting their feelings at City Council meetings that they do not want a cult attempting to build a place of worship in their neighborhood.

Check out the legal proceedings against the mosque in San Jose. It was the late 1990s and a company such as LSI Logic actually went to court to prevent the mosque/madrassah from functioning. The guy who sent an appeal by e-mail through the LSI Logic mail system was fired from the company.

So just keep treating patients and keep out of topics about which you are totally clueless.

As to Gujaratis keepting their culture alive, I think getting 10% off during a Diwali Sale is the most they want in terms of culture.

#51 by Ashutosh_Gandhi

”I think Narendra Modi had not applied for Diplomatic Visa.”

It does not matter whether he applied or not. The dumbo sickoo was denied!
The US Embassy says he applied for it! Right form the Modi website.

The US says he is guilty. I say Aye! Aye!!
“He was responsible for or directly carried out any time particularly severe violations of religious freedom…” Oh my! my! (See below!)

He is guilty! Modi the Butcher is guilty and the US say so! I doubt that anyone can challenge the US creditability on this. Right on the money!
wow! poor Chaddi brigade. Licking the wounds!

http://news.narendramodi.org/2005/march/19032005_1.htm
``We confirm that the Chief Minister of Gujarat state Narendra Modi applied for but was denied diplomatic visa under Section 214 (b) of the Act because he was not coming for the purpose that qualified for diplomatic visa,`` US Embassy spokesman said.
``His tourist/business visa was revoked under Section 212 (a)(2)(g) of the Act which makes `any government official who was responsible for or directly carried out at any time, particularly severe violations of religious freedom,` ineligible for visa,`` he added.”


Now question for folks. Why his website talks about his mother but not father?

http://profile.narendramodi.org/

“Shri Narendra Modi was born on September 17, 1950. His mother`s name is Hiraben.”

#26 by HP

[Every single report from Gujarat points to the fact that Modi ordered the massacre personally.]

Can you quote a single report that points to the fact that Modi ordered the massacre personally?

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Re: # 77
harish_hyd asked
``Can you quote a single report that points to the fact that Modi ordered the massacre personally?``

Hmmm - check NUMEROUS reports by Outlook, HRW, Sabrang`s reports, and I have a videotape I myself shot of an interview with a Patel hater in Kadi-Kalol or something. Its not even a question in Guj, that Modi ordered the killings. Having spent six months there I can tell you this myself - went from `hood to village, village to tribal district. The channels of communication were clearly mapped out. Even in remote parts of Guj., the message was ``CM is all for any orgies of violence your dementedness may urge you to indulge in!``

I cannot believe educated folks can have any doubts about this.

OK my interact was filtered out dunno why - perhaps a mingling of religious and sexual no-nos... Here`s an edited veriosn...
Re: # 71

To r_sridhar...

Not sure what your apolcalyptic quoting of my post is supposed to convey. Like this John Waynesque quote from you

``And here`s a newsflash for you...the majority people in prisons are....criminals....``

Hmmm - and what is that supposed to convey exactly? When your brown beeehind gets chucked in prison for ``having polytheistic pagan homoerotic ideas in mind`` and made to churn out toothbrushes, perhaps, you`ll fondly think back on the paper clips you casually filched from the office, along with the heretical views you expressed, quite unintentionally.

I can see you right now. Shudders when he sees black, Latino and POOR people, wishes they`d all be enslaved (imprisoned), hopes Brahminism rules over all-India, and is willing to make concessions if he can be photographed with, and why not, screw, some blonde Hare Krishna woman, ensure himself citizenship somewhere, and assuage his color-struck self-hatred.

I am tempted to find out who such people are and watch them get a taste of prison somehow which isn`t unimaginable considering the tightening net of racist xenophobia in the US.