A Good Reason To Cheer

Urstruly: Now you are in trouble. One of our resident know-it-alls from India is here (#128 below). ha! ha! If you are not careful he will start smoldering in his own spite.

#129 by tahmed32
Tahmed,
You are always nice to this dimwit #128. Any special reason?

This person has a long list of expertise based on google search engine. You get three or four sites, put some pieces together, paraphrase them and add some spice of hate and boom... There you have a-null or a-hole depending on what mood I am in.
If somebody were to make a list of his areas of expertise, Google would be at the top, middle and at the bottom of the list.

Re: # 128
You forgot the other essential components:
Stewardess
Peanuts
Seatbelts

Re: # 119
Ajeya,
I set your dhoti on fire with the remark about Modi`s rectum. Sorry, pal, didn`t mean to offend you and your poster hero. I am just making a list of the more notorious BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/SP/JS right-wing foaming at the mout right-wing Hindutva types and you popped up. Sorry to have rattled your cage, no go back to your lathi routine.

Urstruly #125: There is no way Dr. Qadeer or anyone could have produced an aircraft in Pakistan, in five years. Once again, have you ever worked on an aircraft. Put one together. Seen how it is done. Are you aware of where Pakistan`s industry fits into this whole picture.

Manufacturing fighter aircraft is one of the most difficult things to do in the world. There are barely any countries, who successfull do it. USA, France, Sweden, UK, and Russia are about the only ones that can produce new generation aircraft (F-16, Mirage 2000s). And even Russia has now gotten into this league, after solving its metallurgical problems with turbines.

The main reason is that aircraft manufacturing requires a lot of industries in a country to be perfoming at a very high level. Materials, Electronics, software development, Aerospace itself, etc. Hardly any country has these industries. Even the Europeans are now building aircraft jointly.

Pakistan has none of these industries at any level to come even close to manufacturing an aircraft. India has been trying for decades to manufacture its Light Combat Aircraft and can barely get it off the ground.

The flight test procedures for aircraft alone take years to validate. Not to mention the fact that one needs a lot of university research. Twenty years ago, all of Pakistan had one Aeronautical Engineering program (run by PAF). And had one wind tunnel. I believe even today it just has one such program and the same wind tunnel.

Pakistan has taken the correct approach and it assembles aircraft. And rebuilds them. And does that very well. This is what the Chinese do also. Pakistani airplanes use Russian designs and engines. Chinese airframes. British radars. And American/French missiles and American electronics.

Pakistan manufactures only the Mushaak propellor trainer, under license from Sweden. And in that only the airframe is manufactured in Pakistan. The engine is imported from Avco Lycoming (owned by Textron, USA). And the electrical systems are imported from the USA, also.

One should not get carried away with Dr. Qadeer. He is not an aerospace engineer. And even if he were, the best thing he could do would be to design an aircraft on paper (which I have done also, as have so many other poeple in the Air Force). But unless he could overhaul the whole industry of Pakistan, from one end to the other. There isn`t much he could do in building an aircraft................

One should live in the real world...........when deciding what Pakistan and a specific Pakistani can do.............

HP: I was just kidding urstruly a bit about his being in trouble now that mr. know-it-all of #128. You are absolutely right - this guy aleph null is of course a ``google expert`` on aeronautical engineering, just like he is a ``google expert`` on everything else (arjun wins the championship trophy as google expert though - he goes a step further by pretending to substantiate his half-assed anti-Pakistan bs through internet links that have nothing to do with his conclusions).

Coming back to topic of this article, you will see that these ``google experts`` somehow magically lose this talent when it comes to Modi. That is, you will see this board littered with posts harping on Modi not being found guilty and berating Revathy for insulting their fragile ``national pride`` by speaking the truth. So, I have decided to assist our esteemed neighbors to the east who lose their ``google-ability`` when it comes to Modi by doing the research for them. For example, here is a 70 page report (all you had to do was google and find out if you were interested) of the international Human Rights Watch titled (and the sub-title itself, which I have cut and pasted in the link below should tell you something) Human Rights Watch report: State Participation and Complicity in Communal Violence in Gujarat

Thank God there are people like Revathy in India as well as these ``google experts``. And thank God for international watchdog organizations like HRW (which no doubt the Modi monkeys on chowk will now claim is biased).

For the convenience of our ``google experts`` who make selective use of their talent, I have cut and paste below a is an excerpt from the summary of the above-mentioned report:

``The Gujarat government chose to characterize the violence as a ``spontaneous reaction`` to the incidents in Godhra. Human Rights Watch`s findings, and those of numerous Indian human rights and civil liberties organizations, and most of the Indian press indicate that the attacks on Muslims throughout the state were planned, well in advance of the Godhra incident, and organized with extensive police participation and in close cooperation with officials of the Bharatiya Janata Party (Indian People`s Party, BJP) state government.

The attacks on Muslims are part of a concerted campaign of Hindu nationalist organizations to promote and exploit communal tensions to further the BJP`s political rule-a movement that is supported at the local level by militant groups that operate with impunity and under the patronage of the state. The groups most directly responsible for violence against Muslims in Gujarat include the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, the ruling BJP, and the umbrella organization Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (National Volunteer Corps, RSS), all of whom collectively form the sangh parivar (or ``family`` of Hindu nationalist groups). These organizations, although different in many respects, have all promoted the argument that because Hindus constitute the majority of Indians, India should be a Hindu state. ``

further to #134: Also note in particular the part from the excerpt which says that these Gujerat `` attacks on Muslims throughout the state were planned, well in advance of the Godhra incident, and organized with extensive police participation ``.

For years (and constantly on this board), Indian posters (and not just the certified lunatics like harimau) have been claiming that the attack on muslims was revenge for Godhra. The above piece (from the international Human Rights Watch) says it was planned well in advance - with police participation.

Human Rights Watch is just a private NGO and has no constitutional or legal bearing on India. Their opinion have the same validity as those of say hijra32 and hacked penis , the great cyber warrior eunuchs of Pakistan.

Ultimately , facts are that Modi has not been convicted by any court of law in India and is very much a democratically elected leader of the Indian people.

People will have their opinion against him or for him. Many have annouced their judgement on him. Some for and others against.

Everybody has the right to their opinion. But the only opinion that counts is that of the Indian electorate. And the only judgement that counts is that of the Indian courts.

Foreign countries may or may not grant him a visa. But as long as Modi enjoys the support of the majority of those who vote in the election , he will continue to remain the chief minister of India`s richest and most productive state.

For an attack to be premeditated , planned and systematically organised in advance by Modi and his henchmen in the RSS , as claimed by Human Rights Watch and other private NGOs , and some private citizens like Farzana Versey , one would require sixty volunteers , thirty five of them women and children , to agree to being burnt alive.

Also , questions remain as to the co-incidence of the 2000 odd muslim mob being present outside the coach at precisely about the time that it was on fire. And questions remain about how the doors of the coach remained locked from outside. Surely , the least that the 2000 odd muslim mob could do was to remove the locks in the door , if it wasn`t responsible for setting the coach on fire. Else , even if they did not set fire to the coach (a lot of the investigation pertains to the matter of whether the coach was set fire from inside or from outside) , they still stand guilty of mass murder by doing nothing and watching as the people in the coach were being consumed by fire.

Re: # 133 Romair

If Dr. Qadeer has taught us something it is that ``Everything is possible``. How long we are going to to remain stuck in this ``it can`t be done`` mindset.

First, and main thing is that Pakistan has the infrastructure to build aircraft and it is already doing it. We do not have to start from the scratch like KRL.

Second, we have expertise to assemble, manufacture, and engineer aircrafts and we are already doing it.

Third, a supplier base of freign and local suppliers already exist.

Fourth, what I suggested was the reverse-engineering of an already tried and tested aircraft and not to start R&D from aeronautics 1-0-1.

Personally, my experience is that of product development. I take over the work from blue prints and lead the product thru various feasibility stages, protototypes, validation, and production to the market. THerefore, I feel qualified to say that it can be done.


We usually, look down upon anything non-American as inferior and incompetent. It has more to do with our mindset rather than reality. For example, Russians have beaten Americans in every endeavor of space exploration (except that of landing on the moon) which rather was a pomp and show than an edge our Rusians. Yet we have a mindset that Russians make inferior products.

When I was in Pakistan I saw a Chinese forklift for the very first time. It was the ugliest piece of machinery that I had ever seen. Imagine a Pakistani Bedford truck sliced from behind the crew cabin and attached with two forks on that side. It was being powered by a diesel engine and its noise could scare children in one mile radius. While most of my collegue scoffed at it I was immensely humbled by it. Because it made the bold stataement that ``China can do it``.


Aleph null

I am assuming that the customized software that you have mentioned in your post can now be replaced by Progammable lLogic Controllers-PLC. Commercial PLCs exist for the past 25 years or more and they have been standardized ever since. I do not see a big problem as far as control, sensor and mechanical interface is concerned. However, I do accept that avionics is something that we need time to work on and for that I suggested that we use borrowed equipment.

re: F16 sale to Pak: will it affect Indo-US relationship?
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=419645
An interesting artilce.
Excerpts:
(The Bush administration`s decision to sell F-16 jets to Pakistan amounts to ``rejecting India at the altar`` of a new relationship, former Senator Larry Pressler has said.

``Yesterday (March 25 when President George W. Bush called Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to convey the F-16 decision) was a sad day, the day we lost India,`` Pressler told IANS in an interview. He is the Republican author of the Pressler Amendment which banned military assistance to Pakistan because of its nuclear programme.

``If I were the leader of India I would have no option but to seek an alliance with China for military reasons,`` Pressler said.).
Ominous last sentence? Or just rhetoric? Only time will tell.
Sridhar

re: post# 126 by tahmed
``If the intended purpose is to provide an effective deterrent to India, then they are not necessary - Pakistan already developed missiles that are far more effective vehicles for developing nuclear bombs and thus has the necessary deterrent.``
Well spoken.
What u say is correct. But then if India were to get Patriot (i doubt it will as the rleations with US just nosedived after the news of F16 sale), missiles will be nullified. F16 then remains the only viable option to deliver the nuclear weapons. So, i do not begrudge Pak the F16. My only contention is: today Pak seems to have a dictator who has the right frame of mind about mending fences with India. How it came about after Kargil is puzzle to me but i guess USA has a lot to do with it and we need to be grateful to that nation. But what after him? Would F16 then become another weapon to flaunt?
Giving F16 to Pak has ensured continued cooperation from Pak. Unfortunately this came at a time when Indo-US relationship was poised for a take off.
Sridhar

re:#121 by Urstruly
Hey Urstruly,
Care to translate what that article says? To ignoramuses like me, it all looks like an ant crawling on the landscape. Urdu is a wonderful language but By Gosh, why is the script so screwed up?
Sridhar

“Ultimately , facts are that Modi has not been convicted by any court of law in India and is very much a democratically elected leader of the Indian people.”- Gujju

The fact is that no cases against the “parcharak” and “Jan Sanghi” have been allowed to go to the courts. The fact that Indian people regularly ELECT CRIMINALS does not reduce the crime.

Three years later, the survivors still await justice and reparations. Even as Muslims were the primary targets of violence in 2002, Christians were attacked and robbed during the post-Godhra riots. For those targeted, including dalits and adivasis, Narendra Modi, the architect of the state organised pogrom, is a monster whose words and deeds have endorsed rapes, the forced abortion of foetuses and their display on trishuls, brutalities that irrevocably scar the present. ,b>More than 2,000 of 4,000 cases filed by the victims were never investigated or dismissed, leading the Supreme Court of India to transfer several out of the state. On February 23, 2005, an Ahmedabad court sentenced three persons to four years imprisonment for stabbing to death Naseembibi Safar Ali, a pregnant woman, onFebruary 28, 2002, in Madhavpura, Ahmedabad. To find the male perpetrators guilty of murder and punish them with four-year sentences makes a mockery of justice and aligns the state, once again, with the sexualised violence that was Gujarat in 2002.
Modi is a pracharak (proselytiser) for the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the xenophobic Hindu fundamentalist organisation, which, along with other Hindu extremist groups, receives funds from the US and UK.
What was worse, due to state complicity in all this, the victims had no way to get justice within the state of Gujarat. The Supreme Court had to intervene and transfer the cases out of the state and these cases are now going on in the state of Maharashtra. More than 3000 cases closed by the state police for `want of evidence` had to be reopened as per directive of the Supreme Court. The lower judiciary was totally communalised and higher judiciary in Gujarat is also partly contaminated with communal ideologies. What was more shocking was that the state appointed prosecutors were members of VHP. How on earth could these victims ever get any justice?
The Gujarat state government, led by Chief Minister Narandra Modi of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), not only failed to take appropriate action to prevent the violence, but has since failed to properly investigate the crimes committed. It has consistently sought to impede successful prosecutions of those allegedly involved in the massacres, leading the Supreme Court and National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) to intervene on several occasions.
Activists and witnesses pursuing accountability continue to be targeted by influential extremists in Gujarat. The highest levels of government in Gujarat have created an extremely hostile environment. Chief Minister Modi has called human rights workers “five-star activists and pseudo-secularists” who are trying to tarnish the image of his state. This has encouraged a climate of impunity, where perpetrators of the riots and those that took part in the violence feel they can threaten activists and witnesses to discourage them from pursuing justice, without a response from state authorities.
The Gujarat police have initiated very few criminal investigations and have been largely non-responsive in cases where activists have lodged complaints about threats or attacks. No credible witness protection program has been established by the state government, which seems more interested in protecting those responsible for the violence than witnesses and victims.

The fact, however, is that after the riots, the state authorities in Gujarat have mounted a systematic assault on the rights and security of a segment of its citizens, on a scale and with an impunity that is unmatched in independent India, barring the dark months of the Emergency. Of the 4,252 cases registered after the carnage, 2,107 have already been closed on the grounds that there is not enough evidence even to submit a charge-sheet to the courts. In 36 cases, the courts have acquitted the accused. In no case have the accused been punished.

http://www.countercurrents.org/gujarat-mander231103.htm

Romair #133

{{India has been trying for decades to manufacture its Light Combat Aircraft and can barely get it off the ground.}}

But Romair, don’t you see that you are comparing apples and oranges? The Indians stupidly tried to design, not just manufacture, their own fighter aircraft from scratch, so that they could master most or all of the relevant technologies, build up the in-house infrastructure and expertise, and thus be independent of armtwisting and price-gouging by foreigners. The design task was far beyond their limited competence. Little wonder the pathetic little LCA barely staggers into the air with a foreign engine. Foolish qualms over unlicensed production prevent Indians from simply cloning already proven designs.

Urstruly has no such scruples. He proposes to make an exact xerox copy of an already tried-and-tested design (F-16) of which multiple copies exist in Pakistan’s possession. That’s surely a much easier task than designing an aircraft from scratch and validating the design in all its aspects. It’s right up Dr. Xerox Khan’s alley. It doesn’t need wind tunnels and other exotic equipment or an prolonged flight test program. In any case Pakistan already indigenously manufactures sophisticated high-tech weapons such as atomic bombs and missiles. Even the incompetent Indians manufacture Jaguars, for instance, under license, and will be manufacturing (not just assembling) the Su-30 MKI. Mere cloning of a 70’s era aircraft shouldn’t be such a big deal for Pakistan.

Faith and a ‘can-do’ attitude can move mountains – literally, as Dr Qadeer demonstrated at Chagai. Oh ye of little faith! Learn from the shining example of Dr. Qadeer, as Urstruly has.