My darling abaya!

Re: # 232

Ladies, you have a wrong perception. Abaya does NOT protect you. It scares the hell out of people when they look at you --that`s why they don`t interrupt :)

It`s all crap and have fun figuring why cuz you never will.

Re: # 233
That`s BULL SHIT and GO FIGURE WHY

Re: # 196
Thank you --Allah really is lenient. I wish these burqa-ladies would understand.

What ever the hell Abaya means --it only catches meaning as soon as you women put em on. What the hell for? I`m sorry but Prophet Mohammed PBUH only asked women to cover their privacy and their beautiful hair as they naturally are. No one in the world has ever asked women to squish their faces with the tightly tied head scarfs and wear baggy abayas. Comon, i`m sure it`s ok if your butt shows off from your loose clothes

Excellent work on ur part sameen!!!

Lets hope other women will soon dicover the conveniences of an abaya as well...

hahaha
i nice shrot antecdote on the benefits of wearing an abaya!
living in saudi arabia for the mority of my life and the the very few trips i make to renew my permit visa the abaya i realized was part of my life! as you have said, it covered absolutely everything! not ever once did i ever worry what i was waering beneath my abaya! i felt liberated in a way! felt good! but returning to the UK i always had to make a conscios effort on what i should and should not wear, which somehow has sadly dictated my dress sense when i visit saudi arabia which is the greatly lossed until i board the plane!

While everyone was trying to give their opinion about the art of being called a muslim, I ran iinto science of becoming an Ahmadyya (aka Quaidiani).

Now here is a simple guide to become a Qudiani. Maybe Ijtehad and reformation has occured because now descendants are incharge.

Not bad I say, could be easily adopted by muslims--without the benefit of conversion.

tahmed, what do you say. Would you not hug Sattar2?

Just for academic interest.

(drinking is conspicuously absent--loophole, loophole!)

conditions of baiat for quadianis

Syed Sahib,

You are avoiding the issue … and instead claiming that I insulted the Prophet (pbuh). Problem of reading comprehension lies with you. Read on to find out how.

If you come across a recorded hadith which violates Quran, one of your choices is to accept that the Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran. Rejecting this possibility, as I argued, makes you a Muslim. Don’t worry … I too consider myself a Muslim, and reject any possibility that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran.

The only plausible choice, which I listed, is to accept that such hadith are erroneous. That is, some error took place with narrators or recorders, as this hadith was passed down from one person to another. Note the difference between hadith and recorded hadith ... that I brought to your attention.

You seem to accept this view … as you conceded that even Bukhari, the most authentic source of ahadith, potentially contains errors (weak ahadith). So, what’s the problem?

Back to Quran

I have shown how you misinterpreted Quran on the issue of slaying hypocrites/infidels. As I have argued, it has to do with their active hostilities against Muslims … and this punishment applies to anyone who tries to destroy Muslim community. It nothing to do with who they worship. The question now goes back to you … as to under what extreme conditions killing people for worshipping other deities may be justified. And this is the issue you shy away from. And yada yada yada does not contitute an intelligent response.

Re. #228

yada yada yada ......

Your latest blabber further illustrates that either you suffer from a severe disability in reading comprehension, commonly known as dyslexia;

or you`re a belligerent who argues for the sake of argument by presenting the opponent`s arugments as your own.

Now that you`re put on the spot to admit that the Prophet (PBUH) is infallible, which contradicts your brazen statement (pasted for the 3rd time) ``Accept that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran...``, you`ve begun to spin the scholars` own admission of the weak ahadith in their works.

Which also goes to expose your fragile ego and cowardice which prevent you to apologize to the Prophet (pbuh) and repent to Allah. It shouldn`t be a difficult feat for a Muslim who, unlike you, didn`t even commit such an error.

It is simply pathetic!

Read all the posts 228 again... and read them carefully this time. Keep reading until you understand everything what I said and what you said.

Read it all again and again... to see that everyone here has witnessed your arrogance, which started from questioning why does Islam exact capital punishment to discrediting the Prophet (pbuh);

to failure to apologize to him (pbuh) for that error and repent to Allah for the previous one;

to now going after the scholars who themselves point out the weak ahadith in their compilations by virtue of the narrators` credibility, which is a proof of their accuracy as opposed to your belligerent claim of their inaccuracy... duh!

For future references, don`t enter the arena if your vanity does not allow you to be humble for your weaknesses.

Now chase your tail if you wish to continue going in circle.

Over and out from here!

Syed Sahib,

You have finally accepted that some ahadith are inaccurate and cannot be trusted. Whew! (Urstruly Mian … feel free to chime in … it seems your brother has let you down here ...).

Weaknesses in recorded ahadith

You acknowledge that even the most trusted source … Bukhari … contains weak ahadith. Nevertheless, you insist that verdict of bina fide scholars on ahadith is absolute. How can erroneous works lead to absolute results?

Are bona fide scholars infallible…?

And who are these bona fide scholars that you keep referring to?

Would Bukhari be one? But you admitted that his works include weak ahadith. Admittedly, despite best intentions, his works are not perfect.

Would Ibn Katheer be a bona fide scholar on ahadith? He is basing his conclusions on recorded ahadith … which admittedly have errors! So Katheer’s works are prone to errors also. Helloooo … is anybody home …?

Now, I am not doubting their intentions and good will. My point is mainly that despite best intentions, they are not infallible. On the other hand, you insist that ahadith are needed to fully understand Quran! How can recorded ahadith, with sporadic errors, lead to an understanding of perfect Qruan? It should be the other way around ... right?

Quran, the Discriminator

Allah tells us that Quran is the perfect source of guidance for Muslims. If a recorded hadith contradicts Quran, it renders the hadith unreliable. It simply means that the particular hadith does not accurately depict words and actions of the Prophet (pbuh). I fully agree that Holy Prophet (pbuh) never violated Quran in any way (mullah Urstruly thinks otherwise, but that’s another story). How do my views insult the dear Prophet (pbuh)?

You state … Because in the same Quran Allah vouches for the Prophet (PBUH)’s honesty in relaying His message.

I agree that dear Prophet (pbuh) honestly relayed the message. But where does Quran say that all the narrators … recorders … will convey the ahadith without erring? You admit to errors in recorded ahadith! Where does kalima state that the bona fide scholars are infallible?

Recorded ahadith …

If a recorded hadith contradicts Quran, it renders the hadith weak. A hadith is what the dear Prophet (pbuh) actually said. A recorded hadith is what got recorded as the words of the dear Prophet (pbuh). Note the difference. Rejecting recorded ahadith on basis of Quran is not an insult to the dear Prophet (pbuh). You need to get your head examined.

If a recorded hadith is consistent with Quran, a believer should surely learn from it. Blindly following erroneous ahadith will surely mislead you.

When I come across the hadith reference you demanded, I`ll let you know. It is funny that after merely insisting on what Quran says ... and resisting providing any references ... you are now asking for an exact reference, with details of chains of narrators. Now that the tables have turned, you are quick to try to discredit hadith that do not fit your agenda.

Slaying the hypocrites/infidels

I think I know what you are referring to here. Here Quran is referring to those people who are actively engaged in attacking the Muslims. It has nothing to do with who they worship. A self-proclaimed Muslim who engages in similar hostilities against the Muslim community ... is a hypocrite, and deserves the same punishment. Read a bit more to better understand the context.

sattar,

Your references to Quran could never irk me, for I seek my guidance to follow the Prophet (PBUH) from therein.

I hope you will be man enough not to deny my source of ire as copied below:

“However, you have ignored the most critical aspect of this issue … which is … at times there is a contradiction between what Quran commands and what dear Prophet (pbuh) reportedly did. Your choices are as follows …

1. Accept that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran. This leads to several contradictions … and strikes at basis of Islam.”

You can re-read your own post for the context, because I’ve done it many times before I decided to say what I did.

Allah’s supremacy is not in question here.

Neither have I maintained that there are no inaccurate ahadith. Thus, my stress on
- Bona fide traditions of the Prophet (PBUH) by scholars like (in the order as agreed upon by all scholars of Islam)

1. Bukhari (contains least number of weak ahadith)
2. Muslim (number of weak ahadith contained is more than Bukhari)
3. Tirmidhi (number of weak ahadith contained are even more than the two above)
4. Abu Daud (number of weak ahadith contained even more than all of the above)

- Bona fide exegesis of Quran by scholars like Ibn Katheer, who quote the sources of the reported ahadith along with the background and circumstances

The only thing is, one needs to read to them in order to ascertain the perfect synchronization of the exegesis with the Quran.

What you don’t seem to get / accept though, is that Quran cannot be understood in its entirety without the ahadith.

An example of your spin:
“here`s one that should settle the issue. I recall reading a hadith … where the dear Prophet (pbuh) said that … if there is a contradiction between what he reportedly said, and what the Quran commands, preference is to be given to Quran.

Now, why do you think the dear Prophet (pbuh) said this ...? Take a guess. Or are you now going to insist that this hadith is not reliable and cannot be trusted???”

Without the source of the above hadith, no one can ascertain its authenticity. So either quote its reporter and narrator(s), or don’t use it.

The simple reason being, every single word – whether a Quranic verse, or instructions to his companions (ra) or anything he said and/or did was ordered to him by Allah. He (PBUH) did not alter one single letter. He (PBUH) reach the highest place amongst Allah`s entire creation for nothing.

Once again, no one denies that there are inaccurate ahadith, that’s why it is imperative for one to research its reporter(s) and narrator(s) to ensure there’s no contradiction. The aforementioned chronologically listed reporters is how a mainstream Muslim scholar goes by to interpret the Quran.

All the others are either Ahmedis or Qadyanis or Progressives, etc who are trying to push their agenda to benefit from anti-Muslim hegemony.

Funny you mentioned the kalima which you seemed have circumvented when I mentioned it.

Does it say that Prophet (PBUH) “may be” a slave and messenger?
Or does it say in a firm tone that he (PBUH) IS the slave and messenger of Allah?

While you ‘fine and dandy’ out Allah’s command to obey Him and the Prophet (PBUH), you conveniently disregard the fact that throughout the Quran when Allah wishes something to be mandatory, His words do not contain any ambiguity whatsoever. When He offers relaxation to His slaves, His used general and blanket words that could be construed in many different ways. Therefore, He orders us to obey the Messenger (PBUH). Because in the same Quran Allah vouches for the Prophet (PBUH)’s honesty in relaying His message.

ONE ONLY NEEDS TO GO TO THE RIGHT SOURCE… just as one needs to go to a fountain for drinking water, not gutter.

So don’t ask me where Allah vouches for the Prophet (PBUH)… read it on your own with a BONA FIDE exegesis. NO ONE, not even you, has the common sense big enough to fathom the whole Quran without consulting the BONA FIDE exegetes.

``Lastly on ahadith
If ahadith are consistent with teachings of Quran, it is a good idea for believers to follow them. ``

Good idea? Are you nuts? By virtue of its link with Quran, it becomes MANDATORY – not just a GOOD IDEA – to follow those ahadith.

Then you say: “My only contention is that … when recorded hadith conflict with Quran, preference should be given to Quran over hadith, and not vice versa.”

This is your 2nd (SECOND) insolence towards the Prophet (PBUH) which forces me to end communication with you, because your stated contention is unfounded.

Your choice of words, either deliberate or inadvertent, REINFORCES the fallacy that (m’az Allah) the Prophet (PBUH) could ever contradict the Quran and Allah.

The Prophet (PBUH) never contradicted the Quran. Some people have misreported/misnarrated his (PBUH) teachings. Others have totally twisted it around to discredit him and people like you fall for them with utter disregard for the basic rules to interpret the Quran.

When one comes upon a hadith that conflicts the Quran, one must look towards more authentic reporters and narrators of this hadith. Otherwise, the hadith will be rendered inaccurate.

The reason:
All of the AUTHENTIC ahadith of the Prophet (PBUH) are recorded, and none of them EVER contradict the Quran. Their AUTHENTICITY is determined by who reported them and the channel through which they were narrated to him.

Your statement is fundamentally flawed, because AUTHENTIC ahadith of the Prophet (PBUH) and Quran are not deflection or refractions of each other, rather they are ABSOLUTE REFLECTIONS of each other.

Now, if you’re man enough, I DARE YOU to TAKE YOUR AFOREMENTIONED INSOLENT COMMENTS ABOUT THE PROPHET (PBUH) BACK, AND APOLOGIZE TO HIM (PBUH) AND REPENT TO ALLAH right here on this board.

Once you’ve accomplished to apologize to the Prophet (PBUH) and Allah, I will compromise my principle to direct you to the verses where Allah orders to “slay” the hypocrites/infidels.

NOTE that (as I`ve stated previously) extreme conditions refer to situations when an individual is a threat to the Muslims within a Muslim country... where `threat` can be of any kind: social, judicial, spiritual, political, etc. Otherwise, if the individual repents, he/she could be spared.

Otherwise, this discussion is over and you can babble on in your Rummyesque tone about the definitions of fanatics if my criticism of porn `irks` you.

Re. #224

Dear MJ,

Thank you for the kind words.

As you may recall from my earlier posts, I`ve always maintained that I`m not here - or anywhere for that matter - to convert one or another. I only present what I read in the Quran and the Sunnah in the authentic exegesis.

To me and many others like me, one cannot have a selective faith in Allah. One either submits to Him as his Creator and follows the permissible and prohibited as laid out in the Quran and exemplified by the Prophet (PBUH); or reject Him altogether. The in-between are called hypocrites, also disliked by Allah as per the Quran.

People of my ilk do not believe that Islam was (God forbid) invented by Mohammad (PBUH). Rather we believe that it was delivered to us from Allah through him (PBUH). Therefore, in order to follow Allah`s instructions, one must follow at the authentic ahadith of the Prophet (PBUH), lest one does not interpret the Quran wrongly.

I hope you and your loved ones are well too.

Syed Sahib,

My giving preference to Quran has irked you. For a Muslim Almighty Allah comes before the messenger ... which means Quran the Al-Furqaan comes before recorded ahadith. Do you still remember the kalima …?

Quran remains Supreme for a Muslim

You incorrectly state that sattar is rejecting ahadith on whims. I have rejected ahadith on basis of Quran. Note the difference between whims and Quran.

Such ahadith are fabricated and do not depict words/actions of the dear Prophet (pbuh), in my view. How does this disrespect the Prophet (pbuh)? You are twisting my words to dig up dirt on me. This dirt exists only in your mind …

Even hadith prove you wrong .. !!

I referred to a hadith where the dear Prophet (pbuh) himself demanded that preference should be given to Quran over recorded/alleged ahadith.

You now accuse me of quoting weak hadith (interestingly enough, this is your own terminology). If ahadith are infallible as you`ve argued, what does weak hadith mean? This is an admission on your part that some ahadith may be inaccurate. You, yourself are now downplaying ahadith that do not suit your agenda.

Conversely, are there any weak verses in Quran? I hope you don’t think so. Do you now see the difference between Quran and ahadith?

Furthermore on hadith …

I showed you a hadith and you went berserk ... as evidenced by your rambling posts, arabic recitations, and accusations of misleading, while cursing Rushdie and Exxon. Despite all this hoopla, you’ve failed to explain the hadith in question.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348

You may accept his hadith as a valid one, in which case you’ve got a lot of explaining to do. Cursing Lockheed Martin in response does not cut it, pal.

Lastly on ahadith

If ahadith are consistent with teachings of Quran, it is a good idea for believers to follow them. After all, Allah Almighty commands believers to follow in footsteps of the dear Prophet (pbuh). My only contention is that … when recorded hadith conflict with Quran, preference should be given to Quran over hadith, and not vice versa. Is this so difficult to accept?

Killing people for worshipping other gods …

This is how our discussion started … and this is the issue you have avoided thus far.

You have failed to give an example where such an action may be justified. You insisted that such killings may be justified in extreme conditions. I said … OK, give me an extreme example.

In response, you started criticizing the porn industry. Aaarrrgghhh.....!!!!!!!!

Re: # 214 kaalchakra,

I don`t know if you ever return to this page or not, but I like to mention that being a hindu, your empathy for muslims/pakistanis and their problems is remarkable, simply out of this world. I can`t even imagine myself getting into the shoes of hindus and thinking with this much positivity.

I solute your emotion.

And sattar sahib,

I am afraid to say that you don`t seem to live in the real world. The view of Islam that you have is mostly because of the good man inside yourself. My sincerest suggestions for yourself is, either to go backward or come forward from the position you are taking right now. Going backward is easy, but you will just have to kill the nice person who resides inside you. But going forward is a lot difficult. You will have to confront large scale agonies and mental torture. But at least, I am sure that this is where the good man inside you will find it`s `gayaan`.

MJ

ntsyed,

I hail your emotion to convince people on your version of truth. As a fellow country man, your disappointment to do so here saddens me. But this is how it is. You have nothing new to offer and what you offer is consumed a long time ago by me and now rests, completely digested in my toilet and that is the only thing I have to offer to you. But again, I am touched by your positivism.

This is also a fact that people come at chowk because they want some nok-jhonk and some marginal amendments in their ideas, mostly in the positive direction. As an article gets burried deep deep into the pile of new ones, poeple seem to go on with life. So, please don`t take it as somebody`s lack of integrity, you just don`t present the stuff which I need to hear.

I hope you are doing well otherwise.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Dear Muslim brothers and sisters,

As-salaam o’alaikum,

As you may have noticed in the preceding discussion, the likes of Sattar are nothing but delusional reformers of Islam, if not hard-nosed anti-muslims trying to eliminate it; as if m’az-Allah (Allah forbid) 1400 years ago Allah didn’t know what the world would be like in 2005 or beyond, let alone the changes & modifications Muslims will need in order to modernize it.

The arguments he blurted were similar, if not the same, as the hypocrites and disbelievers of the Prophet (PBUH)’s time made. (Read Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Katheer, and Al-raheeq-ul-makhtoom for verification).

Yet they claim to be modernizing Islam and propel it into the 21st century, while fanatically sticking to their pseudo liberal fanaticism of not listening to reason because it would cut into their profits.

When he could not respond to my simple questions pertinent to the contemporary problems, and the solution Shari’a presents, he started to spin the whole discussion on capital punishment in Islam.

Furthermore, if you noticed in his posts number #216 & #218 he brazenly disrespected our prophet Mohammad (PBUH) to justify his ignorance. In my reply to him I only quoted the most wanton of such instances; there are more if you read carefully.

Why did he do so?

Because people like him love only this part of life, whereas a Muslim loves and cares about this one as well as the hereafter part.

If you noticed, he never brought up the topic of hereafter.

In the few authentic ahadith he quoted, he conveniently omitted the background and the rest of the ahadith. Furthermore, he quotes the authentic ahadith when it suits his agenda. Otherwise, he either quotes the weak or completely fabricated ahadith or discredits the Prophet (PBUH) altogether.

Think about it…how could our Prophet (PBUH) contradict Allah, if Allah the Almighty vouches for his (PBUH)’s honesty in the Quran?

How could the Prophet (PBUH) contradict Allah if he is the only creature ever to have been invited by Allah beyond the point no other creature (even Jibraeel-as) could go – sidratul muntaha?

If the push comes to a shove, he’ll probably deny that Prophet (PBUH) ever went on Meraj – the journey to heaven after he lost his dear wife Khadija (ra) and his most ardent supporter Abu Talib.

Why, you may ask? Because that would validate the flawless credibility of the Prophet (PBUH) and would force people like Sattar to follow the Prophet (PBUH)’s sunnah. And that, my dear friends, Sattar and company cannot and do not want to do, because it goes against the very their definition of materialistic mischievous lifestyle.

How could a person believe in Allah by rejecting, or even casting a doubt, on the first pillar of Islam – the 1st kalima?

Rejecting or doubting the Prophet (PBUH)’s credibility is the reason Allah mentions the Jews and Christians negatively in the Quran; even though they’re also people of book.

The truth is that people like Sattar never read the Quran with sincerity, if they ever do. That’s primarily because then they would find holes in their own theory at every turn; whereas this Divine scripture shows a straight path to the mankind. It’s a path which leads to prosperity in this life and hereafter.

Did you notice the timing he stepped into the discussion?

It was when hamid, jahanzeb, temporal, kaalchakra, and others of their kind had failed in their insidious spinning of the truth and criminal disrespect of Islam but could not respond to the basic arguments posed to them. Thus, they relented; took the back seat, and played cheerleader for Sattar.

But when Sattar himself was put on the spot to reveal his true identity, as well as answer the simple questions posed to him, he UNSUCCESSFULLY circumvented everything and insisted on interpreting the Quran without the ahadith.

Because …you guessed it, it suited his agenda to create confusion amongst the unsuspecting intelligent youth like yourselves.

But in his frustrated and seething state he committed the error of inadvertently revealing his true identity as someone other than a Muslim.

The anti-muslim forces know what a powerful medium Internet is. From the Muslim populace, it is mostly frequented by the young intelligent people like you; and that’s where they want to create confusion and dissent against Allah so our future generations would go further astray than we are today.

How?

Giving Sattar and his ilk the benefit of doubt, he may not even recognize it, but the modus operandi of the anti-Muslim is to create and spread the disease so then they could maximize their profits by selling the cure and/or medicine to the stricken. The disease could be physical, emotional, social, judicial, and you name it.

For example, who is benefiting the most with Good Muslim and Bad Muslim terminology?

The Muslims are not.

The American / Western tax payers are not.

It is only the corporations like Halliburton, Lockheed Martin, Exxon, etc. (there’s a long list of them, if you care to research on the Internet) as well as the politicians, bureaucrats, and aristocrats of all creeds and colors throughout the globe.

And at the bottom of this food chain are people like Salman Rushdie, PMU, Amina Wadud, Asra Nomani, Irshad Manji, Sattar, and others like them you may see here.

As previously, I can counter each and every argument he put forth without much effort. I could present the verses and ahadith to support my arguments too. But I did not want to provide an opportunity to an ignorant to distort those verses and ahadith to twist the entire Islam and it followers.

I ended the discussion because in his frustration he was moving towards blatant blasphemy, and like any other Muslim, I did not want to give him the satisfaction to disrespect my Allah behind the anonymity of this portal.

He may still do it out of ``sheer`` and ``absolute`` frustration, but then it will be between him and Allah, because I have done my part to end this debate.

In addition to blasphemy, continuing this debate would give him an opportunity to disrespect Quran, and the Prophet (PBUH), and his companions (ra) as and when he deems appropriate to suit his objective of spreading confusion in the Muslim minds. Needless to say, no Muslim in his/her right mind could bear to witness the disrespect of his/her core foundation.

So, my dear brothers and sisters please study the Quran carefully;
study the ahadith compiled by Bukhari, Muslim, and Tirmidhi;
study the tafseer (exegesis) by Ibn Katheer and other noted scholars,
to become better Muslims instead of getting crash courses on the Internet, because that’s where the enemies of Islam are able to easily distort the verses and ahadith to their liking.

There are quite a few sites where authentic information about Islam is available, but be very careful.

Do not engage in discussions like these because people like Sattar, hamid, jahanzeb, temporal, etc seek to sow doubts in your mind about your identity under the guise of misguided notions of liberalism, value of life, freedom of all kinds. Ironically, in their arrogance they may not even know it themselves, but the end result would be same.

Even if you do find yourselves in a situation where you have to respond to someone like him, make sure you invoke (make du’a to) Allah with the one Musa (as) made when he was going to the Pharoa’s court after he had become the prophet:

“Rab-bish rahli sadri; wa yas-sir li amri; wahlul’uqdatanm-minl-lisani; wa yafqahu qauli”

Transliteration:
[Musa (as)] said: “O my Lord! Expand me my breast; Ease my task for me; And remove the impediment from my speech; so they may understand what I say”

(sura Ta-Ha [Makkan]; verses 25-28………transliteration from The Holy Quran – revised and edited by The Presidency of Islamic Research, IFTA, Call and Guidance)

In my debate with him, I believe it was this invocation that made Sattar lose his ground and falter in such a short time by revealing his identity despite his best effort to hide it. Only Allah grants us the knowledge when we beg of Him with utmost sincerity, and He filled my heart with knowledge I never I had.

Allah will never let you fail if you speak the truth after this invocation. It is my personal experience; it has never failed me in any single instance.

But again, try not to engage in such discussions, because Shaitaan uses these ignorants to sow doubt in your heart and mind against Allah and all His commandments.

They may or may not heed to your valid arguments, or even Quran and Sunnah, but that is neither your loss nor your responsibility.

It is entirely their loss and Allah will take account on the Day of Judgment.

Jazak-Allah-Khair

M`as-salaam ya ayyuhal muslimeen