Re: # 232

Ladies, you have a wrong perception. Abaya does NOT protect you. It scares the hell out of people when they look at you --that`s why they don`t interrupt :)

It`s all crap and have fun figuring why cuz you never will.

Re: # 233
That`s BULL SHIT and GO FIGURE WHY

Re: # 196
Thank you --Allah really is lenient. I wish these burqa-ladies would understand.

What ever the hell Abaya means --it only catches meaning as soon as you women put em on. What the hell for? I`m sorry but Prophet Mohammed PBUH only asked women to cover their privacy and their beautiful hair as they naturally are. No one in the world has ever asked women to squish their faces with the tightly tied head scarfs and wear baggy abayas. Comon, i`m sure it`s ok if your butt shows off from your loose clothes

Excellent work on ur part sameen!!!

Lets hope other women will soon dicover the conveniences of an abaya as well...

hahaha
i nice shrot antecdote on the benefits of wearing an abaya!
living in saudi arabia for the mority of my life and the the very few trips i make to renew my permit visa the abaya i realized was part of my life! as you have said, it covered absolutely everything! not ever once did i ever worry what i was waering beneath my abaya! i felt liberated in a way! felt good! but returning to the UK i always had to make a conscios effort on what i should and should not wear, which somehow has sadly dictated my dress sense when i visit saudi arabia which is the greatly lossed until i board the plane!

While everyone was trying to give their opinion about the art of being called a muslim, I ran iinto science of becoming an Ahmadyya (aka Quaidiani).

Now here is a simple guide to become a Qudiani. Maybe Ijtehad and reformation has occured because now descendants are incharge.

Not bad I say, could be easily adopted by muslims--without the benefit of conversion.

tahmed, what do you say. Would you not hug Sattar2?

Just for academic interest.

(drinking is conspicuously absent--loophole, loophole!)

conditions of baiat for quadianis

Syed Sahib,

You are avoiding the issue … and instead claiming that I insulted the Prophet (pbuh). Problem of reading comprehension lies with you. Read on to find out how.

If you come across a recorded hadith which violates Quran, one of your choices is to accept that the Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran. Rejecting this possibility, as I argued, makes you a Muslim. Don’t worry … I too consider myself a Muslim, and reject any possibility that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran.

The only plausible choice, which I listed, is to accept that such hadith are erroneous. That is, some error took place with narrators or recorders, as this hadith was passed down from one person to another. Note the difference between hadith and recorded hadith ... that I brought to your attention.

You seem to accept this view … as you conceded that even Bukhari, the most authentic source of ahadith, potentially contains errors (weak ahadith). So, what’s the problem?

Back to Quran

I have shown how you misinterpreted Quran on the issue of slaying hypocrites/infidels. As I have argued, it has to do with their active hostilities against Muslims … and this punishment applies to anyone who tries to destroy Muslim community. It nothing to do with who they worship. The question now goes back to you … as to under what extreme conditions killing people for worshipping other deities may be justified. And this is the issue you shy away from. And yada yada yada does not contitute an intelligent response.

Re. #228

yada yada yada ......

Your latest blabber further illustrates that either you suffer from a severe disability in reading comprehension, commonly known as dyslexia;

or you`re a belligerent who argues for the sake of argument by presenting the opponent`s arugments as your own.

Now that you`re put on the spot to admit that the Prophet (PBUH) is infallible, which contradicts your brazen statement (pasted for the 3rd time) ``Accept that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran...``, you`ve begun to spin the scholars` own admission of the weak ahadith in their works.

Which also goes to expose your fragile ego and cowardice which prevent you to apologize to the Prophet (pbuh) and repent to Allah. It shouldn`t be a difficult feat for a Muslim who, unlike you, didn`t even commit such an error.

It is simply pathetic!

Read all the posts 228 again... and read them carefully this time. Keep reading until you understand everything what I said and what you said.

Read it all again and again... to see that everyone here has witnessed your arrogance, which started from questioning why does Islam exact capital punishment to discrediting the Prophet (pbuh);

to failure to apologize to him (pbuh) for that error and repent to Allah for the previous one;

to now going after the scholars who themselves point out the weak ahadith in their compilations by virtue of the narrators` credibility, which is a proof of their accuracy as opposed to your belligerent claim of their inaccuracy... duh!

For future references, don`t enter the arena if your vanity does not allow you to be humble for your weaknesses.

Now chase your tail if you wish to continue going in circle.

Over and out from here!

Syed Sahib,

You have finally accepted that some ahadith are inaccurate and cannot be trusted. Whew! (Urstruly Mian … feel free to chime in … it seems your brother has let you down here ...).

Weaknesses in recorded ahadith

You acknowledge that even the most trusted source … Bukhari … contains weak ahadith. Nevertheless, you insist that verdict of bina fide scholars on ahadith is absolute. How can erroneous works lead to absolute results?

Are bona fide scholars infallible…?

And who are these bona fide scholars that you keep referring to?

Would Bukhari be one? But you admitted that his works include weak ahadith. Admittedly, despite best intentions, his works are not perfect.

Would Ibn Katheer be a bona fide scholar on ahadith? He is basing his conclusions on recorded ahadith … which admittedly have errors! So Katheer’s works are prone to errors also. Helloooo … is anybody home …?

Now, I am not doubting their intentions and good will. My point is mainly that despite best intentions, they are not infallible. On the other hand, you insist that ahadith are needed to fully understand Quran! How can recorded ahadith, with sporadic errors, lead to an understanding of perfect Qruan? It should be the other way around ... right?

Quran, the Discriminator

Allah tells us that Quran is the perfect source of guidance for Muslims. If a recorded hadith contradicts Quran, it renders the hadith unreliable. It simply means that the particular hadith does not accurately depict words and actions of the Prophet (pbuh). I fully agree that Holy Prophet (pbuh) never violated Quran in any way (mullah Urstruly thinks otherwise, but that’s another story). How do my views insult the dear Prophet (pbuh)?

You state … Because in the same Quran Allah vouches for the Prophet (PBUH)’s honesty in relaying His message.

I agree that dear Prophet (pbuh) honestly relayed the message. But where does Quran say that all the narrators … recorders … will convey the ahadith without erring? You admit to errors in recorded ahadith! Where does kalima state that the bona fide scholars are infallible?

Recorded ahadith …

If a recorded hadith contradicts Quran, it renders the hadith weak. A hadith is what the dear Prophet (pbuh) actually said. A recorded hadith is what got recorded as the words of the dear Prophet (pbuh). Note the difference. Rejecting recorded ahadith on basis of Quran is not an insult to the dear Prophet (pbuh). You need to get your head examined.

If a recorded hadith is consistent with Quran, a believer should surely learn from it. Blindly following erroneous ahadith will surely mislead you.

When I come across the hadith reference you demanded, I`ll let you know. It is funny that after merely insisting on what Quran says ... and resisting providing any references ... you are now asking for an exact reference, with details of chains of narrators. Now that the tables have turned, you are quick to try to discredit hadith that do not fit your agenda.

Slaying the hypocrites/infidels

I think I know what you are referring to here. Here Quran is referring to those people who are actively engaged in attacking the Muslims. It has nothing to do with who they worship. A self-proclaimed Muslim who engages in similar hostilities against the Muslim community ... is a hypocrite, and deserves the same punishment. Read a bit more to better understand the context.

sattar,

Your references to Quran could never irk me, for I seek my guidance to follow the Prophet (PBUH) from therein.

I hope you will be man enough not to deny my source of ire as copied below:

“However, you have ignored the most critical aspect of this issue … which is … at times there is a contradiction between what Quran commands and what dear Prophet (pbuh) reportedly did. Your choices are as follows …

1. Accept that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran. This leads to several contradictions … and strikes at basis of Islam.”

You can re-read your own post for the context, because I’ve done it many times before I decided to say what I did.

Allah’s supremacy is not in question here.

Neither have I maintained that there are no inaccurate ahadith. Thus, my stress on
- Bona fide traditions of the Prophet (PBUH) by scholars like (in the order as agreed upon by all scholars of Islam)

1. Bukhari (contains least number of weak ahadith)
2. Muslim (number of weak ahadith contained is more than Bukhari)
3. Tirmidhi (number of weak ahadith contained are even more than the two above)
4. Abu Daud (number of weak ahadith contained even more than all of the above)

- Bona fide exegesis of Quran by scholars like Ibn Katheer, who quote the sources of the reported ahadith along with the background and circumstances

The only thing is, one needs to read to them in order to ascertain the perfect synchronization of the exegesis with the Quran.

What you don’t seem to get / accept though, is that Quran cannot be understood in its entirety without the ahadith.

An example of your spin:
“here`s one that should settle the issue. I recall reading a hadith … where the dear Prophet (pbuh) said that … if there is a contradiction between what he reportedly said, and what the Quran commands, preference is to be given to Quran.

Now, why do you think the dear Prophet (pbuh) said this ...? Take a guess. Or are you now going to insist that this hadith is not reliable and cannot be trusted???”

Without the source of the above hadith, no one can ascertain its authenticity. So either quote its reporter and narrator(s), or don’t use it.

The simple reason being, every single word – whether a Quranic verse, or instructions to his companions (ra) or anything he said and/or did was ordered to him by Allah. He (PBUH) did not alter one single letter. He (PBUH) reach the highest place amongst Allah`s entire creation for nothing.

Once again, no one denies that there are inaccurate ahadith, that’s why it is imperative for one to research its reporter(s) and narrator(s) to ensure there’s no contradiction. The aforementioned chronologically listed reporters is how a mainstream Muslim scholar goes by to interpret the Quran.

All the others are either Ahmedis or Qadyanis or Progressives, etc who are trying to push their agenda to benefit from anti-Muslim hegemony.

Funny you mentioned the kalima which you seemed have circumvented when I mentioned it.

Does it say that Prophet (PBUH) “may be” a slave and messenger?
Or does it say in a firm tone that he (PBUH) IS the slave and messenger of Allah?

While you ‘fine and dandy’ out Allah’s command to obey Him and the Prophet (PBUH), you conveniently disregard the fact that throughout the Quran when Allah wishes something to be mandatory, His words do not contain any ambiguity whatsoever. When He offers relaxation to His slaves, His used general and blanket words that could be construed in many different ways. Therefore, He orders us to obey the Messenger (PBUH). Because in the same Quran Allah vouches for the Prophet (PBUH)’s honesty in relaying His message.

ONE ONLY NEEDS TO GO TO THE RIGHT SOURCE… just as one needs to go to a fountain for drinking water, not gutter.

So don’t ask me where Allah vouches for the Prophet (PBUH)… read it on your own with a BONA FIDE exegesis. NO ONE, not even you, has the common sense big enough to fathom the whole Quran without consulting the BONA FIDE exegetes.

``Lastly on ahadith
If ahadith are consistent with teachings of Quran, it is a good idea for believers to follow them. ``

Good idea? Are you nuts? By virtue of its link with Quran, it becomes MANDATORY – not just a GOOD IDEA – to follow those ahadith.

Then you say: “My only contention is that … when recorded hadith conflict with Quran, preference should be given to Quran over hadith, and not vice versa.”

This is your 2nd (SECOND) insolence towards the Prophet (PBUH) which forces me to end communication with you, because your stated contention is unfounded.

Your choice of words, either deliberate or inadvertent, REINFORCES the fallacy that (m’az Allah) the Prophet (PBUH) could ever contradict the Quran and Allah.

The Prophet (PBUH) never contradicted the Quran. Some people have misreported/misnarrated his (PBUH) teachings. Others have totally twisted it around to discredit him and people like you fall for them with utter disregard for the basic rules to interpret the Quran.

When one comes upon a hadith that conflicts the Quran, one must look towards more authentic reporters and narrators of this hadith. Otherwise, the hadith will be rendered inaccurate.

The reason:
All of the AUTHENTIC ahadith of the Prophet (PBUH) are recorded, and none of them EVER contradict the Quran. Their AUTHENTICITY is determined by who reported them and the channel through which they were narrated to him.

Your statement is fundamentally flawed, because AUTHENTIC ahadith of the Prophet (PBUH) and Quran are not deflection or refractions of each other, rather they are ABSOLUTE REFLECTIONS of each other.

Now, if you’re man enough, I DARE YOU to TAKE YOUR AFOREMENTIONED INSOLENT COMMENTS ABOUT THE PROPHET (PBUH) BACK, AND APOLOGIZE TO HIM (PBUH) AND REPENT TO ALLAH right here on this board.

Once you’ve accomplished to apologize to the Prophet (PBUH) and Allah, I will compromise my principle to direct you to the verses where Allah orders to “slay” the hypocrites/infidels.

NOTE that (as I`ve stated previously) extreme conditions refer to situations when an individual is a threat to the Muslims within a Muslim country... where `threat` can be of any kind: social, judicial, spiritual, political, etc. Otherwise, if the individual repents, he/she could be spared.

Otherwise, this discussion is over and you can babble on in your Rummyesque tone about the definitions of fanatics if my criticism of porn `irks` you.

Re. #224

Dear MJ,

Thank you for the kind words.

As you may recall from my earlier posts, I`ve always maintained that I`m not here - or anywhere for that matter - to convert one or another. I only present what I read in the Quran and the Sunnah in the authentic exegesis.

To me and many others like me, one cannot have a selective faith in Allah. One either submits to Him as his Creator and follows the permissible and prohibited as laid out in the Quran and exemplified by the Prophet (PBUH); or reject Him altogether. The in-between are called hypocrites, also disliked by Allah as per the Quran.

People of my ilk do not believe that Islam was (God forbid) invented by Mohammad (PBUH). Rather we believe that it was delivered to us from Allah through him (PBUH). Therefore, in order to follow Allah`s instructions, one must follow at the authentic ahadith of the Prophet (PBUH), lest one does not interpret the Quran wrongly.

I hope you and your loved ones are well too.

Syed Sahib,

My giving preference to Quran has irked you. For a Muslim Almighty Allah comes before the messenger ... which means Quran the Al-Furqaan comes before recorded ahadith. Do you still remember the kalima …?

Quran remains Supreme for a Muslim

You incorrectly state that sattar is rejecting ahadith on whims. I have rejected ahadith on basis of Quran. Note the difference between whims and Quran.

Such ahadith are fabricated and do not depict words/actions of the dear Prophet (pbuh), in my view. How does this disrespect the Prophet (pbuh)? You are twisting my words to dig up dirt on me. This dirt exists only in your mind …

Even hadith prove you wrong .. !!

I referred to a hadith where the dear Prophet (pbuh) himself demanded that preference should be given to Quran over recorded/alleged ahadith.

You now accuse me of quoting weak hadith (interestingly enough, this is your own terminology). If ahadith are infallible as you`ve argued, what does weak hadith mean? This is an admission on your part that some ahadith may be inaccurate. You, yourself are now downplaying ahadith that do not suit your agenda.

Conversely, are there any weak verses in Quran? I hope you don’t think so. Do you now see the difference between Quran and ahadith?

Furthermore on hadith …

I showed you a hadith and you went berserk ... as evidenced by your rambling posts, arabic recitations, and accusations of misleading, while cursing Rushdie and Exxon. Despite all this hoopla, you’ve failed to explain the hadith in question.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348

You may accept his hadith as a valid one, in which case you’ve got a lot of explaining to do. Cursing Lockheed Martin in response does not cut it, pal.

Lastly on ahadith

If ahadith are consistent with teachings of Quran, it is a good idea for believers to follow them. After all, Allah Almighty commands believers to follow in footsteps of the dear Prophet (pbuh). My only contention is that … when recorded hadith conflict with Quran, preference should be given to Quran over hadith, and not vice versa. Is this so difficult to accept?

Killing people for worshipping other gods …

This is how our discussion started … and this is the issue you have avoided thus far.

You have failed to give an example where such an action may be justified. You insisted that such killings may be justified in extreme conditions. I said … OK, give me an extreme example.

In response, you started criticizing the porn industry. Aaarrrgghhh.....!!!!!!!!

Re: # 214 kaalchakra,

I don`t know if you ever return to this page or not, but I like to mention that being a hindu, your empathy for muslims/pakistanis and their problems is remarkable, simply out of this world. I can`t even imagine myself getting into the shoes of hindus and thinking with this much positivity.

I solute your emotion.

And sattar sahib,

I am afraid to say that you don`t seem to live in the real world. The view of Islam that you have is mostly because of the good man inside yourself. My sincerest suggestions for yourself is, either to go backward or come forward from the position you are taking right now. Going backward is easy, but you will just have to kill the nice person who resides inside you. But going forward is a lot difficult. You will have to confront large scale agonies and mental torture. But at least, I am sure that this is where the good man inside you will find it`s `gayaan`.

MJ

ntsyed,

I hail your emotion to convince people on your version of truth. As a fellow country man, your disappointment to do so here saddens me. But this is how it is. You have nothing new to offer and what you offer is consumed a long time ago by me and now rests, completely digested in my toilet and that is the only thing I have to offer to you. But again, I am touched by your positivism.

This is also a fact that people come at chowk because they want some nok-jhonk and some marginal amendments in their ideas, mostly in the positive direction. As an article gets burried deep deep into the pile of new ones, poeple seem to go on with life. So, please don`t take it as somebody`s lack of integrity, you just don`t present the stuff which I need to hear.

I hope you are doing well otherwise.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Dear Muslim brothers and sisters,

As-salaam o’alaikum,

As you may have noticed in the preceding discussion, the likes of Sattar are nothing but delusional reformers of Islam, if not hard-nosed anti-muslims trying to eliminate it; as if m’az-Allah (Allah forbid) 1400 years ago Allah didn’t know what the world would be like in 2005 or beyond, let alone the changes & modifications Muslims will need in order to modernize it.

The arguments he blurted were similar, if not the same, as the hypocrites and disbelievers of the Prophet (PBUH)’s time made. (Read Sahih Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ibn Katheer, and Al-raheeq-ul-makhtoom for verification).

Yet they claim to be modernizing Islam and propel it into the 21st century, while fanatically sticking to their pseudo liberal fanaticism of not listening to reason because it would cut into their profits.

When he could not respond to my simple questions pertinent to the contemporary problems, and the solution Shari’a presents, he started to spin the whole discussion on capital punishment in Islam.

Furthermore, if you noticed in his posts number #216 & #218 he brazenly disrespected our prophet Mohammad (PBUH) to justify his ignorance. In my reply to him I only quoted the most wanton of such instances; there are more if you read carefully.

Why did he do so?

Because people like him love only this part of life, whereas a Muslim loves and cares about this one as well as the hereafter part.

If you noticed, he never brought up the topic of hereafter.

In the few authentic ahadith he quoted, he conveniently omitted the background and the rest of the ahadith. Furthermore, he quotes the authentic ahadith when it suits his agenda. Otherwise, he either quotes the weak or completely fabricated ahadith or discredits the Prophet (PBUH) altogether.

Think about it…how could our Prophet (PBUH) contradict Allah, if Allah the Almighty vouches for his (PBUH)’s honesty in the Quran?

How could the Prophet (PBUH) contradict Allah if he is the only creature ever to have been invited by Allah beyond the point no other creature (even Jibraeel-as) could go – sidratul muntaha?

If the push comes to a shove, he’ll probably deny that Prophet (PBUH) ever went on Meraj – the journey to heaven after he lost his dear wife Khadija (ra) and his most ardent supporter Abu Talib.

Why, you may ask? Because that would validate the flawless credibility of the Prophet (PBUH) and would force people like Sattar to follow the Prophet (PBUH)’s sunnah. And that, my dear friends, Sattar and company cannot and do not want to do, because it goes against the very their definition of materialistic mischievous lifestyle.

How could a person believe in Allah by rejecting, or even casting a doubt, on the first pillar of Islam – the 1st kalima?

Rejecting or doubting the Prophet (PBUH)’s credibility is the reason Allah mentions the Jews and Christians negatively in the Quran; even though they’re also people of book.

The truth is that people like Sattar never read the Quran with sincerity, if they ever do. That’s primarily because then they would find holes in their own theory at every turn; whereas this Divine scripture shows a straight path to the mankind. It’s a path which leads to prosperity in this life and hereafter.

Did you notice the timing he stepped into the discussion?

It was when hamid, jahanzeb, temporal, kaalchakra, and others of their kind had failed in their insidious spinning of the truth and criminal disrespect of Islam but could not respond to the basic arguments posed to them. Thus, they relented; took the back seat, and played cheerleader for Sattar.

But when Sattar himself was put on the spot to reveal his true identity, as well as answer the simple questions posed to him, he UNSUCCESSFULLY circumvented everything and insisted on interpreting the Quran without the ahadith.

Because …you guessed it, it suited his agenda to create confusion amongst the unsuspecting intelligent youth like yourselves.

But in his frustrated and seething state he committed the error of inadvertently revealing his true identity as someone other than a Muslim.

The anti-muslim forces know what a powerful medium Internet is. From the Muslim populace, it is mostly frequented by the young intelligent people like you; and that’s where they want to create confusion and dissent against Allah so our future generations would go further astray than we are today.

How?

Giving Sattar and his ilk the benefit of doubt, he may not even recognize it, but the modus operandi of the anti-Muslim is to create and spread the disease so then they could maximize their profits by selling the cure and/or medicine to the stricken. The disease could be physical, emotional, social, judicial, and you name it.

For example, who is benefiting the most with Good Muslim and Bad Muslim terminology?

The Muslims are not.

The American / Western tax payers are not.

It is only the corporations like Halliburton, Lockheed Martin, Exxon, etc. (there’s a long list of them, if you care to research on the Internet) as well as the politicians, bureaucrats, and aristocrats of all creeds and colors throughout the globe.

And at the bottom of this food chain are people like Salman Rushdie, PMU, Amina Wadud, Asra Nomani, Irshad Manji, Sattar, and others like them you may see here.

As previously, I can counter each and every argument he put forth without much effort. I could present the verses and ahadith to support my arguments too. But I did not want to provide an opportunity to an ignorant to distort those verses and ahadith to twist the entire Islam and it followers.

I ended the discussion because in his frustration he was moving towards blatant blasphemy, and like any other Muslim, I did not want to give him the satisfaction to disrespect my Allah behind the anonymity of this portal.

He may still do it out of ``sheer`` and ``absolute`` frustration, but then it will be between him and Allah, because I have done my part to end this debate.

In addition to blasphemy, continuing this debate would give him an opportunity to disrespect Quran, and the Prophet (PBUH), and his companions (ra) as and when he deems appropriate to suit his objective of spreading confusion in the Muslim minds. Needless to say, no Muslim in his/her right mind could bear to witness the disrespect of his/her core foundation.

So, my dear brothers and sisters please study the Quran carefully;
study the ahadith compiled by Bukhari, Muslim, and Tirmidhi;
study the tafseer (exegesis) by Ibn Katheer and other noted scholars,
to become better Muslims instead of getting crash courses on the Internet, because that’s where the enemies of Islam are able to easily distort the verses and ahadith to their liking.

There are quite a few sites where authentic information about Islam is available, but be very careful.

Do not engage in discussions like these because people like Sattar, hamid, jahanzeb, temporal, etc seek to sow doubts in your mind about your identity under the guise of misguided notions of liberalism, value of life, freedom of all kinds. Ironically, in their arrogance they may not even know it themselves, but the end result would be same.

Even if you do find yourselves in a situation where you have to respond to someone like him, make sure you invoke (make du’a to) Allah with the one Musa (as) made when he was going to the Pharoa’s court after he had become the prophet:

“Rab-bish rahli sadri; wa yas-sir li amri; wahlul’uqdatanm-minl-lisani; wa yafqahu qauli”

Transliteration:
[Musa (as)] said: “O my Lord! Expand me my breast; Ease my task for me; And remove the impediment from my speech; so they may understand what I say”

(sura Ta-Ha [Makkan]; verses 25-28………transliteration from The Holy Quran – revised and edited by The Presidency of Islamic Research, IFTA, Call and Guidance)

In my debate with him, I believe it was this invocation that made Sattar lose his ground and falter in such a short time by revealing his identity despite his best effort to hide it. Only Allah grants us the knowledge when we beg of Him with utmost sincerity, and He filled my heart with knowledge I never I had.

Allah will never let you fail if you speak the truth after this invocation. It is my personal experience; it has never failed me in any single instance.

But again, try not to engage in such discussions, because Shaitaan uses these ignorants to sow doubt in your heart and mind against Allah and all His commandments.

They may or may not heed to your valid arguments, or even Quran and Sunnah, but that is neither your loss nor your responsibility.

It is entirely their loss and Allah will take account on the Day of Judgment.

Jazak-Allah-Khair

M`as-salaam ya ayyuhal muslimeen

Re. #211 & 217,

jahanzeb and hamid,

if this phony was a hired hand, then you ask for a refund... and diligently pursue him in courts if he refuses to.

By the way, you`re also more than welcome to hog this site along with your PMU cohorts in your futile attempts to win over young unsuspecting Muslim youth to your idiotology. If they seek guidance from Allah, the likes of you will only frustrate yourselves to your demise.

By the way, thank you for your inadvertant assistance in reinforcing my faith in Allah, Who revealed your true reality so quickly with your disgraceful exit from the discussion.

Again, good luck with your cocaphonic rant of bovine fecal matter.

Sattar,

You can spin it anyway you like by conveniently omitting the BONE FIDE and my admission of FLAYING and FILLETING in my post, whilst you continue on your rant about extreme cases and their relevant adjudicating capital punishment.

The fact is, you’re right… we’d be going in circles; especially now that you’ve revealed your true identity (probably despite your best effort not to do so) with your statement copied below:

“Accept that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran. This leads to several contradictions … and strikes at basis of Islam.”

It leaves no doubt in the predominant and mainstream Muslim mind that you belong to a realm other than Islam.

The primary and only reason – WANTON violation of the following:

1. the 1st pillar of Islam: “la-ilaha-illallah-Mohammadar-rasool-Allah” (there is no god except Allah, Mohammad is His messenger)
2. Allah’s stren command to believers: ‘ati-ullaha-wa-‘ati-ur-rasool’ (obey Allah and obey the Messenger)

How could one possibly be a believer in Allah if he/she selectively disbelieves in the latter halves of the above two according to his/her conveniences and whims?

Now that you’ve already accused the beloved Prophet (PBUH) of contradicting the Quran through your selective use of unauthentic ahadith, further prolonging this discussion will only lead you to take Salman Rushdie approach and discredit Quran selectively to further suit your political/economic agenda. And believe me; I don’t want a bounty on your head.

As I’ve said in my previous post that if the disbelievers (probably in your case, an uninformed selective believer) “try to engage you in a stupid argument instead of demonstrating intelligence by studying, listening, processing, and then making a decision; as per Allah’s instruction in the Quran, just say ‘salaam’ and end the discussion!”

I will not allow you the chance to disrespect my Prophet (PBUH), and consequently Allah, by extending this discussion any further.

Good luck with PMU along with its Amina Waduds, Asra Nomanis, and other cohorts at MuslimWakeup.com and their orgy of idiotology.

Together you can continue your futile efforts to twist Islam as much as you like; there have been many like you before who are nothing more than dust, or faded bitter memories at best.

Au contraire, Quran and authentic Sunnahs of the Prophet (PBUH) continue to thrive till the end of time through the BONA FIDE exegesis by the likes of Ibn Katheer, and BONA FIDE reporters of ahadith like Bukhari, Muslim, and Tirmidhi.

``I bear witness that there`s no god except Allah; and Mohammad is His obedient slave and messenger``

Re. #213:

One_World, I hope the last time you looked into the mirror it reaffirmed that you`re not a mere sperm stuck in your father`s scrotum or his trajectory chamber, if any farther.

Please be the human you look like and extend some respect to your mother, in case you don`t have sisters, wife, or daughter.

Syed Sahib … more on inaccuracies in ahadith … (as I`ll be away over the weekend ... here`s some food for thought ...)

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a saint …

There are countless ahadith where the dear Prophet (pbuh) prayed fervently for well being of his enemies, sometimes despite protests from his own friends. These enemies blasphemed and ridiculed him, tried to attack and to kill him, hurled stones at him. But he prayed for their well being and forgiveness. Incidentally, this view concurs with teachings of Quran.

The opposite viewpoint …?

And then there is this hadith … which shows the opposite.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348

Here the dear Prophet (pbuh) failed to condemn or to show remorse for barbaric killing of a pregnant slave. Furthermore, according to some ahadith the Prophet (pbuh) had people killed for merely mocking him!

It is easy to see that such ahadith contradict each other. Most show Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a humble, compassionate human. A few portray him an egoistical brute. Did he change his mind from day to day? Did he decide to follow Quran one day, and violate it the next day? Or is it simply that some ahadith are inaccurate?

sattar,

...... if you can convert ntsyed to your point of view i will convert to true islam !......... you are a very patient man ! ....... may allah, or whatever, bless you .........

Syed Sahib,

I based my arguments on Quran … which in no way suggests killing people for adultery, apostasy, blasphemy, or worshipping other deities. I have pointed out that these teachings are consistent with one’s sensibilities. Note that Quran asks us over and over again to use your faculties to think and reason. Blindly providing vague references … without sound reasoning … does not cut it.

Your views and choices …

On the other hand, you are insisting that killing people over these issues is allowable. You have argued that Quran commands believers to follow the dear Prophet (pbuh). That’s fine and dandy. However, you have ignored the most critical aspect of this issue … which is … at times there is a contradiction between what Quran commands and what dear Prophet (pbuh) reportedly did. Your choices are as follows …

1. Accept that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran. This leads to several contradictions … and strikes at basis of Islam.
2. Ignore Quran, and follow what books of ahadith report.
3. Accept that books of ahadith contain some inaccuracies.

You seem to have ruled out (1), adopted (2), and turned a blind eye toward (3).

Ruling out (1) makes you a Muslim, adopting (2) makes you a fanatic, and turning a blind eye toward (3) makes you a low IQ individual. In short, you are a fanatic, low IQ, Muslim.

And you can call me Rummy … if you’d prefer.

Ahadith

History often gets distorted despite best intentions of narrators and recorders. Islamic history is no exception.

Most ahadith were recorded about 70-200 (more?) years after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh). While most ahadith are consistent with message of Quran, some blatantly violate its teachings. Some ahadith contradict other ahadith. Some ahadith belong to time era when Quranic verses were not revealed regarding certain issues, and the Prophet (pbuh) followed earlier scriptures. But later, as relevent Quranic verses were revealed, they replaced commandments contained in earlier scriptures. Some ahadith fail to capture these details. Ignoring these issues invalidate your views.

Note that 70 years is two generations; 200 years is almost 7 generations. Islamic scholars themselves categorize ahadith as strong, weak, unreliable, etc. etc. But they are in agreement over the content of Quran. Do they categorize verses of Quran as strong, weak, unreliable, etc. etc. Of course not. What does this tell you?

An interesting hadith ...

If you still insist on blindly following ahadith ... here`s one that should settle the issue. I recall reading a hadith … where the dear Prophet (pbuh) said that … if there is a contradiction between what he reportedly said, and what the Quran commands, preference is to be given to Quran.

Now, why do you think the dear Prophet (pbuh) said this ...? Take a guess. Or are you now going to insist that this hadith is not reliable and cannot be trusted???

Quran, the Al-Furqaan, the Discriminator …

In one of the verses, Quran is also called Al-Furqaan … the Discriminator … the Criterion to judge. If there is a question about authenticity of a hadith, a believer should judge its validity against Quran.

For example … Quran asks one to simply avoid company of those who blaspheme. According to some recorded ahadith, Prophet (pbuh) had people killed for blasphemy. What would you rather follow? Go back to 1,2,3 above ... and rethink.

You are pointing out what Bukhari, Khatir, and others recorded and wrote. But why do you ignore and contradict what Allah wrote? Who comes first? This is not a trick question ... and is an easy one ...

Your reasoning …

To support your views, you have come up with an extreme example … that of pornography. Going back to our earlier discussion … can you think of an extreme example where people should be killed for worshipping other deities? You probably cannot …

Onwards with pornography … yes, if a few perpetrators are executed, it will severely impact the porn industry. But can the same result be achieved by banning pornography, and jailing/fining the violators? Why is death preferable in such circumstances?

Executing people for traffic violations will also severely reduce traffic violations. Then again … is death preferable in such circumstances?

We can argue … and keep going in circles. Or we may chose to consult Quran … which you don’t seem to care much about.

So what does Quran ... not Bukhari, not Kathir, not your local mullah ... say about adulterers, apostates, blasphemers, and other deities? Is it really that difficult to read Quran? Apparently it is an impossible task for you ... violaaaa ...

As-salaam o’alaikum ya ayyuhal muslimeen!

Dear Sattar,
It is beyond my comprehension why you insist on reducing your intelligence to mediocrity by believing what appeals to your common sense based on heresay and rejecting others, rather than to study and research the Quran and Sunnah to ensure the grasp of concepts.

My statements seem vague to you because you insist on not looking up the matter as I’ve suggested – in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) by bona fide exegetes, such as Ibn Katheer.

Furthermore, what seems rambling to you is my deliberate attempt to avoid gambling with faith. As you’ve rightly pointed out, these are not trivial matters and involve “human life and basic dignity, and not some esoteric philosophical discussion.”

You’re correct to point out that “sunnah and ahadith are passed down by humans and humans are prone to err.” However, that argument does not justify flaying the sunnah altogether.

You’ve also rightfully stated that “Allah has vouched to protect the Quran…”, and indeed He has and He will, till the end of time. However, He has also commanded the believers to ‘atiullaha wa ‘atiur-rasool’ (obey the Quran and obey the messenger PBUH)” in many places throughout the Quran. I`m sure you must have noticed them.

By virtue of Allah’s promise to protect the Quran, He also implies a promise to protect the Sunnah. Why? Because our Prophet (PBUH)’s whole life demonstrates how a human being should follow the Quran and lead the life Allah has chosen for him, for his (mankind) benefit and not Allah`s own. If Allah did not protect the Sunnah, then people would distort it any which way the desire. (Again recent examples, Salman Rushdie, Amina Wadud, Asra Nomani, Irshad Manji, PMU with its MWU, and some on this board including yourself)

For example, many places in the Quran Allah asks us to pray as it is the second pillar of Islam. But no where one can find the requirements and the method of praying. The companions of the Prophet (ra) only learned to pray as the Prophet (PBUH) told them to, because that`s how he (PBUH) was told to perform by Allah. He (PBUH) also told/demonstrated the exceptions to them. I hope you lose your belligerence and get the point.

Furthermore, what seems rambling to you is my deliberate attempt not to get involved in the gambling of faith. As you’ve rightly pointed out, these are not trivial matters and involve “human life and basic dignity, and not some esoteric philosophical discussion.” The human life and basic dignity you present is just one minute aspect of it.

Your Sought After Examples

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Before I get into the example, I must tell you that I’m immensely amused by your Rummy-eque “absolute nonsense” and “sheer nonsense”. They suggest you’re in a similar agitated or complacent state as when he (Rumsfeld) gets when put on the spot.

Anyway…imagine if Shari’a was implemented in the USA tomorrow. Let’s consider the EXTREME cases in which the death penalty will be meted out and their consequences.

Fornication/Adultery/Rape:

---

For a man and/or woman to be executed for this crime, there must be four credible witnesses who have seen the actual act, if you know what I mean, which by the very definition makes it a very Extreme case.

The candidates in the contemporary society would be the celebrities from the growing multi-billion dollar porn industry.

Now, once if even one of them is executed for this crime,
- how many new ones do you think will enter this profession?
- how many young girls and boys kidnapped from abroad will be sold into this profession?
- how many current professionals will be comfortable to continue, this profession? I hate to be repetitive, but I’d say not many. What do you think?

The few losers in this case:
- the entire production teams,
- studios and printing presses, not to forget the VHS, DVD manufacturers
- “adult” toy manufacturers and their outlets
- sperm banks (which provide such material to the donors)
- financial banks which offer credit cards for the consumers’ convenience to obtain such material…shhhhh ‘anonymously’
- plastic surgeons and their employees who offer male and female augmentation
- last but not least, government which makes a bundle in taxes from sales and personnel paychecks, of the aforementioned

Naturally, implementing shari’a will also require the government to destroy the pornographic material. Then the question arises,
- how many will be willing to, or could, make more?
- what would be the probability of your children feasting their innocent eyes on them through VHS, DVD, internet, cable, and print? Pretty slim, I would say… wouldn’t you?

Few Losers:
o The entire industry
o Its supporting industries
o Copyrights, and all other kinds of lawyers (I’m sure you can figure it out on your own)
o Again, last but not least the government which collects incredible amounts of revenue as taxes

Similarly, in order to curb the endemic promiscuity, people will be flogged when convicted.

- How many men and women would want to take a risk? Not many, I’m sure your “human dignity” and honesty will concur with me on this count too.
- How would it affect the worsening STD situation?

How do you think it will affect the prevailing problems of:
- rapes – date rapes, occasional indiscretions, as well as serial rapes
- how would it affect the official US governmental agencies statistics which report that every few minutes, if not seconds, a woman is raped in the country?
- unwanted pregnancies
- infanticide and abortion
- child abuse
- the school environment and education
- marital breakups due to infidelities
There may be more areas that will be affected, but I’m sure you get the picture.

Few Losers:
- Prostitution industry with all its players (Oh my God, what will happen to Nevada?)
- Alcohol industry
- Drug industry
- “Male entertainment” outfits
- Fashion clothing that show more skin than cloth
- Nudist resorts and beaches
- The influential public figures, as they’d not be able to get some on the side
- Pharmaceutical industry that has inundated the market with prophylactics and birth control, “performance`` and organ enhancers for men and women
- The plastic surgeons and their employees who are minting money with male and female augmentation
- Medical professionals who perform abortions
- Lawyers and their employees for all kinds of cases, from paternity suits to abuse cases
- Law enforcement agencies due to loss of jobs, since there would not be many such cases
- again last but not least, government which makes a bundle in taxes from sales and personnel paychecks, from the aforementioned professions/markets
- I almost forgot, publishers of material like kamasutra (I would apologize to kaalchakra, but since he insisted not to do so… I won’t)

I hope you are beginning to understand the benefits of an effective law vis a vis its leniency.

Murder

---

I’m sure you subscribe to the Islamic code on this one, either because it makes sense to you or perhaps because it is also a part of the man-made American constipation… I mean, constitution, that’s why you’ve never brought it up in this discussion.

Still, if the Shari’a is instituted, the convicted murderers would be beheaded publicly, sooner than they’re currently executed in the USA.

- How many people will think long and hard about committing one or hiring a contract killer? Still, I would guess not many.
- How many minor homicidal maniacs will be able to get away with their mischief?

Few Losers:
- NRA and its member arms manufacturers
- Trial lawyers
- Public and private law enforcement due to loss of jobs owing to reduction in crime rate
- The prison industry, about which I read in late 80s that the annual cost of incarceration of one inmate in a maximum security prison was USD40,000, which is collected from the tax payers… and such prisons were over-crowded even back then. I don’t even want to imagine the latest figures
- The government at large due to
o reduced tax revenues from arms sales to individuals,
o reduced revenue in court charges

Mushriks

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If you had read the biography of the Prophet (PBUH), you would know that the extremes cases in this matter are the ones who were hell-bent on the destruction of the ummah. The rest were spared if they either became Muslims, or promised not to engage in spreading dissent against Allah.

Please read Syed Qutb’s Milestones for explanation on different types of apostates and how they should be dealt with within the Islamic territories. Sahih Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and Muslim are even better sources.

If shari’a was instituted tomorrow in the grand ol’ USA, the godless mushriks will be the only ones who would be crying due to severe loss of revenues and an end to their exploitation of women and men, in the aforementioned examples. Decent God fearing would prefer the “overall” (feel free to expand the term as much as you can) benefits over the temporary financial losses of the few.

Why?

Because, dear Sattar, the myopic mushriks are only focused on this life, thus wish to collect and horde as much money as they can; God fearing decent people don’t run after material at the expense of morality, security, and law & order.

Secondly, they would not be able to cause a rift between the believers with Good Muslim, Bad Muslim terminologies, which consequently would allow the aforementioned examples to prevail and security to be maintained. Similarly, the likes of kaalchakra will not be able to pit you and I against each other as attempted in his post #209… and he wasn’t even subtle about it.

The likes of him would not even dare to lure uninformed Muslim women to his pagan, agnostic, and polytheistic ideologies. God forbid, one of those women could be your wife, sister, or daughter.

But you probably don’t care about such things, because from your statement: “Sunnah and ahadith are passed down by humans and humans are prone to err. History almost always gets distorted, despite best intentions of narrators and recorders”, you’re probably an active member of PMU / muslimwakeup.com. Some time last year, one of their members made a similar claim, personally to yours truly.

Or… judging by Kaalchakra’s pronouncement: “I salute you, Sir. Sufis, Ahmedis, and other such groups who have no place in the political and civilizational core of Islam are the only ones who defend and spread Islam” you could very well be an Ahmedi or a deviant Sufi (which only includes some perverted ones, not all).

In either event, their fallacy should be pretty clear by now from the aforementioned examples.

What needs to be understood about Islam vis a vis life, is that everything in this universe is connected in one way or another. In human societies, the economy, social life, spirituality, law & order, you name it. A blow to one affects the others, which may or may not be apparent immediately.

I hope you’re only an informed sincere Muslim who fits the description I’ve described in the previous posts. And if this is the case, then I hope you snap out of your arrogance of your incomplete knowledge and complacency and see the reality in its bitter form, as well as the precautions and solutions Islam provides.

Otherwise, I would have to say to you what Allah has instructed the believers in the Quran: if a person of the book (Christian, Jew) tries to engage you in an argument over faith, simply tell them that Allah had revealed to you what He revealed to them, and you chose to believe in it… and walk away.

Again, I’m not here to convert anyone, but to invite people to study Islam with sincerity and make good use of their intelligence. Their conversion is up to Allah only.

And to disbelievers when they try to engage you in a stupid argument instead of demonstrating intelligence by listening, processing, and then making a decision, (as per Allah’s instruction in the Quran) just say ‘salaam’!

So, if you’re secure about your ‘father’s religion’ then come out with your identity, if you dare to.

Your ``And finally…``

---

It is your misconception that Muslims generally denounce material wealth. Au contraire, we cherish it, as these are generous gifts from Allah, which we can share with others in return of more tremendous rewards from Allah.

We don’t believe in hording as we are instructed by Allah in the very Quran you refer to, and reminded repeatedly by our Prophet (PBUH). But then again you probably don’t believe in the latter, which, by virtue of Allah’s previously mentioned instruction, renders your interpretation of Quran meaningless. Not to mention your faith in Allah as nothing more than farce simply to suit your conveniences and luxury and be accepted by the anti-Muslim demagogues.

Conclusion

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I concur with you that shair’a “has become” a confounded term. It is not restricted to the Islamic legal code, rather it encompasses even the minutest aspect of life. The legal code of the Shari’a is for its enforcement and to maintain law & order in the society. Needless to say, shari’a law has been abused due to years of wanton flaying and filleting with impunity…Ahmedis and some deviant brittle nut Sufis are prime examples.

I also concur with you that Quran should be the source of guidance above and beyond everything. There are a lot of things in the Quran which do not become apparent to an uninformed person. For such situations, one must consult a bona fide exegesis, if not all of them.

If the person is still unable to grasp the concept, then very definition of faith in Allah demands that we carry out His orders as an act of obedience. Why, you may ask?

The simple reason being, primarily a human mind is incapable of absorbing everything at once.

Secondly, our relationship with Allah is similar to our relationship with our parents. When we were born, we did not even know how to suck on our mothers’ bosom to eliminate our hunger. Our mothers had to train us. Similarly, they trained us for everything except crying incessantly out of hunger or pain or discomfort. These parents, guardians, and elders continued to train us until we reached a certain age when we learned the word WHY? In some cases we listened to the responses and in others we didn’t. For the ones we didn’t, we learned of its wisdom when we either got hurt or witnessed others achieving something admirable through their obedience; e.g. education.

Therefore, Allah tells His creatures to ‘obey’, study, think, and ponder, and eventually His divine wisdom will become apparent to us in due time. Even if it doesn`t, simply obey, because whatever Allah asks us to do or don`t do are good, better, and best for us.

Quran was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH) over 23 years according to the need of His divine instructions in specific situations. Allah could have revealed it all in one instance, but people could not fathom all of it immediately, as is the case with pseudo-western liberals. Therefore, gradual revelation according to the circumstances helped the believers to understand and thus follow the commandments with relative ease.

Another thing Allah says so many times in the Quran is to “obey Allah and obey the Messenger (PBUH)”. Again, I can cite the specific verses, but I will not do it for the reasons you currently don’t agree with.

Now, why would Allah ask us to obey the Messenger (PBUH)? The apparent reason to me is that Allah built Mohammad (PBUH)’s credibility since his birth. Please read about Haleema S’adia (ra)’s witnessing of miracles (not just one) when she took him (PBUH) in her care from his infancy till his early childhood.

As he (PBUH) grew up, despite his seemingly menial work of shepherding and salesmanship/trading later on, EVERY SINGLE person in Makka believed in his honesty, integrity, and righteousness. All other prophets (PBUT) before him were raised in a similar manner for people to heed to their message given to them by Allah.

Then Allah sent Jibra’eel (as) to him, so he (PBUH) didn’t have to have a blind faith in Allah either. I hope you can think and expand on this point on your own too.

He then started receiving commandments from Allah through Jibra’eel (as) and demonstrated to his companions (ra) how those commandments should be followed.

Therefore, Allah orders us to obey Mohammad (PBUH) as well because He knows He has not given us a big enough mind and we cannot fathom all His commandments on our own, therefore made it mandatory for us to follow Mohammad (PBUH) because he carried out those commandments with absolute perfection.

If one believes in obeying Allah, then he/she must believe in Mohammad (PBUH) and follow him as well. Otherwise, we would not be following Allah as we should be. Consequently, that would cause corrosion of our faith in Allah, bid’a, and all kinds of problems we are witnessing throughout the Muslim nation and the world at large. Not to mention, we may end up dying in a state of hypocrisy or as a disbeliever.

Now, before you set out to study Quran and Sunnah, please allow me to suggest a gem of a book to you; Uloom-ul-Quran, beautifully authored by Justice Taqi Uthmani.

Speaking of confounded terms, think about the “fanatic”. By your definition, it is a person who sticks to opinion hardheadedly; without an open mind to listen to reasons alien to him.

By that measure, you could be labeled as “liberal fanatic”, with ill-conceived notions of liberalism as propagated by the west in particular; who refuses to even look into the reasons for the prescribed way of life as laid out in the Holy Quran and authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) despite the fact that this one book (Quran) continues to be the best seller (to put in conventional buzzword terminology) ever since its revelation.

``True`` liberals always seek and listen to reason instead of forming opinions on flimsy impressions which may or may not reflect the truth.

By the way, for future references, it’s Voila, not Whooaalaaa.

M’as-salaam ya ayyuhal-muslimeen

one_world,

I have quickly put together a long rant, a rant potentially most dangerous for me. It may be most dangerous because it will seem to directly question the beliefs of the Muslims I admire the most, people whose value systems are closest to mine. (sattar saheb, if you do look it over, kindly forgive my impudence).

My only defense is that I am describing some difficulties with Islam honestly as I see them. There are few proofs and justifications here. Mostly gut feel, sometimes based on evidence, sometimes not.

My basic idea is that no one ought to expect Islam to lead into the world into greater equity and justice any more than do or did any other religions. Islam`s great strengths come at the tremendous costs to its own long-term positive usefulness. Accompanied as those strengths are with Islam fascination with and seemingly unshakeable commitment to extremely misleading rhetoric.

---

One_world, you described Karachi seeing more saudi-inspired `thousand black crows.` But no matter what you report, most modern Muslim intellectuals cannot accept Islam as a form of discriminatory global Arab Imperialism. A global imperialism that is intellectual, cultural, and significantly political.

Interestingly, many of sharpest Muslim intellectuals often turn out to Indian/subcontinental converts (one source of their great facility with ideas, which they have taken into Islam`s service:)) or their associates. They would very much like to believe in the idealized promised myth - that in removing caste and race distinctions Islam somehow became an ideology of universalism.

For the latest developments, jetsetting Muslims are now pegging their hope on the NEW global and international brotherhood as the long-promised route to modern, universal egalitarianism of Islam.


Yet, in the history of perhaps all human thought, few `truths` have been more glibly and thoughtlessly asserted, more unquestioningly accepted, and been more tragically bereft of basis or foundation, than the assumed universality and egalitarianism of Islam.

But who can visualize inegalitarianism when the religion`s dominant self-image is of a great mass of people from around the world, of all races, holding hands, in brotherhood, around the same Kaaba?! :)


All I would say is that you get only get a false sense, a hope easily and very willingly cultivated as reality.

---

The difficulty in acknowledging this fact is very real. (To normal, freedom-loving, and non militaristic people) Islam offers few significant benefits other than its much-promised egalitarianism.

Thus to question Islam`s claim of universality and egalitarianism is to uproot the very holy of all Islamic intellectual holies.

A mere Hindu making this claim is not going to convince any Muslim! What do we caste-experts know about egalitarianism? :)

(Actually, who else would know what not to do than us, the champion experts of inequality?? But that won`t appeal to many here)

---

Meanwhile, any outsider notices two very strange facts:

(1) West-, even India-inspired, modern Muslim intellectuals are forever and constantly getting surprised by Islam`s directional tendencies. They want to pull their great religion forward. The rest of Muslims invariably want to go back.

(2) All around we find a (hilarious/sad?) inversion of Islam`s fictionalized and real identities. The farther a ``Muslim`` finds himself or herself from the REAL power, discourse, and civilizational centers of Islam, the more rational and reasonable he sounds to the rest of the world.


(Unlike REAL ideologies and religions, REAL things and places can be identified with full accuracy. Thus we can say that brother Sattar is not near any core of Islam political and discursive life)

---

Yet such inversions might be very hard to see from inside of Islam. Over time, an unsympathetic external observer suspects, Islam has mastered and perfected an native mechanism for logical fudging. So, peripheral ``Muslims`` - who anywhere else would also know their situation - forever astonish (only) non Muslims by claiming to know the REAL Islam.

Like the Sufis who can`t stop claiming Islam for themselves, even as they are ridiculed and rejected by supposed ``non Muslim`` other Muslims.

---

That`s why I can lay a bet with anyone. The truly inegalitarian Hinduism will keep leaving Islam in the dust every passing year in covering its comparatively longer journey to social justice and social empowerment. The problem is that Islam simply has no mechanism to enable its `core` followers to even understand and acknowledge its deepest problems. (I am quite aware of ijtihad)

So, $100.00 over the next 20 years anyone? You win if, over the next two decades, Islam can be reasonably argued to have covered even half the distance that Hinduism will cover in empowering its own people.

---

For various historical/cultural reasons, Iran is and will continue to be an exception. It`s trajectory will be partly tied to and partly free of Arab Imperialist Islam. About the awaited impact of `international` Islam, the less said the better.

---

These are my very pessimistic, but totally honest predictions. I will be glad to be proven wrong. But I won`t be. And, just to provoke some good folks into giving their assumptions another massage, at least over the next 20 years, I am willing to bet a small sum of $ 100.00 at today`s rate!

why u all idiots defending veil..i live in fuking saudi and i know it feels am here since fuking 1982 and all the men want to see a woman naked..so why shy about it ?

the problem with saudi and some of sick pakis who leave saudi n go back pakistan specially karachi...they wana show saudism in pakistan!

karachi has becoem a hell too...u go go anywhere u`ll see veils now...like thousands of black crow !
what u hiding inside ur ugly face or tits...u go europe lovely babes lie topeless at beaches..so shame on u sick Burka ladies!

MJ,

A follow up comment on the issue of blasphemy that was raised earlier ...

Quran commands believers to simply avoid the company of those who blaspheme. While it mentions and discourages blasphemy ... even against Gods of others ... , it does not suggest any punishment for the blasphemers … and only asks believers to sever social ties with them. That`s all.

In contrast, the mullahs insist that blasphemers of Islam be killed! While blasphemy against anyone’s faith or gods is a despicable act … killing blasphemers in itself is a heinous act. It shows utter disregard for human life and dignity … and openly violates the sensible teachings of Quran on this issue.

Peace and regards.

++++++

Kaalchakra,

Thanks for your kind comments. I hope and pray that people, all of us, make efforts to appreciate and adopt the good we find in each other … and shun hatred and injustice at all levels in our societies.

++++++

Temporal bhai …

Thanks for the encouragement. I am a bit of a back-bencher … who occasionally gets tangled up in brawls in back alleys of chowk. Nevertheless I’ll keep your comments in mind … later dude ...

see nt,

at least sattar talks to the point and with some sense.

come on man, these are basic communication skills. how would you be a successful preacher if you lack even these basic traits of successsful men?

mj

Syed Sahib (#201):

When pressed for specifics, you have become vague and appear to be rambling. If you are unable to articulate your reasons, you cannot rightfully support death for others. This issue involves human life and basic dignity, not some esoteric philosophical discussion.

Quran, Sunnah, and Ahadith

Sunnah and ahadith are passed down by humans and humans are prone to err. History almost always gets distorted, despite best intentions of narrators and recorders. Allah has vouched to protect the Quran … and therefore Quran is the foremost criterion for a believer. My earlier post to Malik Sahib illustrates this in a little more detail.

What extreme conditions?...

You have also failed to provide a single example … where killing people for worshipping other deities can benefit the ummah. Feel free to come up with an extreme example. You seem to think that mentioning the disclaimer of “extreme conditions” … validates your views. It does not. You have made vague comments, without providing reasons for your views.

If anything, so far you have only presented arguments on why you should not be presenting arguments to support your views. Whooaalaaa … this is absolute nonsense.

And finally …

Bashing materialism and advanced nations does not validate your views. Especially when you remain vague on reasons and rationale for your own views.

And no, I am not implying that you are stuck in 6th century. Fanaticism has existed in all ages, and this day is not exception. You are simply a fanatic.

Neither do I see Islam as stuck in 6th century. My view is that Islam helps establish a close relationship between man and His Creator. It aims to reform basic human instincts. Misuse of these instincts has brought about pain and misery for people in all ages, and this day is no exception.

Sattar2

I salute you, Sir. Sufis, Ahmedis, and other such groups who have no place in the political and civilizational core of Islam are the only ones who defend and spread Islam.

I wonder what ntsyed thinks of all this, other than as the happy, but purely political and material convenience against non Muslims.

I look forward to his telling us if he sees himself as sharing the same basic spiritual experience as you do.

Malikjahanzeb (#199),

“Sharia” is somewhat of a confounded term … with different connotations to different individuals. Quran being the Word of Allah should be the main source of guidance for a believer. Problems arise as followers step over the boundaries and twist scripture for social, political, economic gains. Issues raised here illustrate this to some extent.

Apostasy

Quran mentions apostasy in several places … but does not even remotely suggest any punishment for apostates in this world. It states that the issue rests between Allah and the individual. Furthermore, Quran states that those who apostatize, but later revert back to Islam, will be looked upon mercifully by Allah Almighty.

These commandments leave no doubt that there is no worldly punishment for apostasy in Islam. Killing apostates, besides being an inhuman act that forces religion on man, rules out the possibility of an apostate reverting back to Islam … thus rendering Quranic injunctions useless.

Adultery

Similarly, Quran specifies lashes as punishment for adultery. It also states that fornicators should be given half the punishment given to an adulterer. How can a mullah rightfully demand execution for adultery? And besides, how do you give half-a-death to a fornicator?

Quick comment: Punishment for adultery, like any other crime, requires 4 (or is it 2, I forgot) witnesses. These witnesses would exist if adultery is done as an offensive public display … which violates one’s common and civil sensibilities.

I hope this explains my faith in the religion of my father …

Syed Saheb

Please step out of the religious tradition that personalizes religious views and emphasizes emotions and nerves :)

Shastrarth, or ijtehad, is your religious obligation. You shouldn`t apologize for it.

Do scientists apologize for contradicting one another? They don`t because they are secure in the validity of their system.

Re. #204:

Kaalchakra Saheb,

I apologize if my ``personal`` assessment touched a raw nerve; that was not the intent. You asked for my opinion and it was provided to you.

Again, ``personally`` I think one should pay more attention to the knowledge that he/she can benefit from regardless of how long one lives.

The knoweldge obtained from the book in question becomes meaningless once a person is unable to practice this INNATE function that all animals are able to perform without reading it... if you get my drift. Unless of course, the person is a pervert, and there`s no limit to perversion as one can see in the modern secular societies like the west.

What people of the subcontinent should follow is entirely up to them. However, they should not try to distort/change Islam based on their obscure views.

They should be free to practice 1400 year old religion or the 14000 years old one.

Speaking of valuable productions, I`m sure you`ve looked into the one invented by a Murar J Desai.

I`m tempted to continue this childish argument with you just for the sake of it, but right now I have more important things to do. So perhaps some other time; it`ll give you some time to relax, reflect on your thoughts, and grow a little.

Ciao.