Re. #213:

One_World, I hope the last time you looked into the mirror it reaffirmed that you`re not a mere sperm stuck in your father`s scrotum or his trajectory chamber, if any farther.

Please be the human you look like and extend some respect to your mother, in case you don`t have sisters, wife, or daughter.

Syed Sahib … more on inaccuracies in ahadith … (as I`ll be away over the weekend ... here`s some food for thought ...)

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a saint …

There are countless ahadith where the dear Prophet (pbuh) prayed fervently for well being of his enemies, sometimes despite protests from his own friends. These enemies blasphemed and ridiculed him, tried to attack and to kill him, hurled stones at him. But he prayed for their well being and forgiveness. Incidentally, this view concurs with teachings of Quran.

The opposite viewpoint …?

And then there is this hadith … which shows the opposite.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348

Here the dear Prophet (pbuh) failed to condemn or to show remorse for barbaric killing of a pregnant slave. Furthermore, according to some ahadith the Prophet (pbuh) had people killed for merely mocking him!

It is easy to see that such ahadith contradict each other. Most show Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a humble, compassionate human. A few portray him an egoistical brute. Did he change his mind from day to day? Did he decide to follow Quran one day, and violate it the next day? Or is it simply that some ahadith are inaccurate?

sattar,

...... if you can convert ntsyed to your point of view i will convert to true islam !......... you are a very patient man ! ....... may allah, or whatever, bless you .........

Syed Sahib,

I based my arguments on Quran … which in no way suggests killing people for adultery, apostasy, blasphemy, or worshipping other deities. I have pointed out that these teachings are consistent with one’s sensibilities. Note that Quran asks us over and over again to use your faculties to think and reason. Blindly providing vague references … without sound reasoning … does not cut it.

Your views and choices …

On the other hand, you are insisting that killing people over these issues is allowable. You have argued that Quran commands believers to follow the dear Prophet (pbuh). That’s fine and dandy. However, you have ignored the most critical aspect of this issue … which is … at times there is a contradiction between what Quran commands and what dear Prophet (pbuh) reportedly did. Your choices are as follows …

1. Accept that the dear Prophet (pbuh) violated Quran. This leads to several contradictions … and strikes at basis of Islam.
2. Ignore Quran, and follow what books of ahadith report.
3. Accept that books of ahadith contain some inaccuracies.

You seem to have ruled out (1), adopted (2), and turned a blind eye toward (3).

Ruling out (1) makes you a Muslim, adopting (2) makes you a fanatic, and turning a blind eye toward (3) makes you a low IQ individual. In short, you are a fanatic, low IQ, Muslim.

And you can call me Rummy … if you’d prefer.

Ahadith

History often gets distorted despite best intentions of narrators and recorders. Islamic history is no exception.

Most ahadith were recorded about 70-200 (more?) years after the demise of the Prophet (pbuh). While most ahadith are consistent with message of Quran, some blatantly violate its teachings. Some ahadith contradict other ahadith. Some ahadith belong to time era when Quranic verses were not revealed regarding certain issues, and the Prophet (pbuh) followed earlier scriptures. But later, as relevent Quranic verses were revealed, they replaced commandments contained in earlier scriptures. Some ahadith fail to capture these details. Ignoring these issues invalidate your views.

Note that 70 years is two generations; 200 years is almost 7 generations. Islamic scholars themselves categorize ahadith as strong, weak, unreliable, etc. etc. But they are in agreement over the content of Quran. Do they categorize verses of Quran as strong, weak, unreliable, etc. etc. Of course not. What does this tell you?

An interesting hadith ...

If you still insist on blindly following ahadith ... here`s one that should settle the issue. I recall reading a hadith … where the dear Prophet (pbuh) said that … if there is a contradiction between what he reportedly said, and what the Quran commands, preference is to be given to Quran.

Now, why do you think the dear Prophet (pbuh) said this ...? Take a guess. Or are you now going to insist that this hadith is not reliable and cannot be trusted???

Quran, the Al-Furqaan, the Discriminator …

In one of the verses, Quran is also called Al-Furqaan … the Discriminator … the Criterion to judge. If there is a question about authenticity of a hadith, a believer should judge its validity against Quran.

For example … Quran asks one to simply avoid company of those who blaspheme. According to some recorded ahadith, Prophet (pbuh) had people killed for blasphemy. What would you rather follow? Go back to 1,2,3 above ... and rethink.

You are pointing out what Bukhari, Khatir, and others recorded and wrote. But why do you ignore and contradict what Allah wrote? Who comes first? This is not a trick question ... and is an easy one ...

Your reasoning …

To support your views, you have come up with an extreme example … that of pornography. Going back to our earlier discussion … can you think of an extreme example where people should be killed for worshipping other deities? You probably cannot …

Onwards with pornography … yes, if a few perpetrators are executed, it will severely impact the porn industry. But can the same result be achieved by banning pornography, and jailing/fining the violators? Why is death preferable in such circumstances?

Executing people for traffic violations will also severely reduce traffic violations. Then again … is death preferable in such circumstances?

We can argue … and keep going in circles. Or we may chose to consult Quran … which you don’t seem to care much about.

So what does Quran ... not Bukhari, not Kathir, not your local mullah ... say about adulterers, apostates, blasphemers, and other deities? Is it really that difficult to read Quran? Apparently it is an impossible task for you ... violaaaa ...

As-salaam o’alaikum ya ayyuhal muslimeen!

Dear Sattar,
It is beyond my comprehension why you insist on reducing your intelligence to mediocrity by believing what appeals to your common sense based on heresay and rejecting others, rather than to study and research the Quran and Sunnah to ensure the grasp of concepts.

My statements seem vague to you because you insist on not looking up the matter as I’ve suggested – in the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) by bona fide exegetes, such as Ibn Katheer.

Furthermore, what seems rambling to you is my deliberate attempt to avoid gambling with faith. As you’ve rightly pointed out, these are not trivial matters and involve “human life and basic dignity, and not some esoteric philosophical discussion.”

You’re correct to point out that “sunnah and ahadith are passed down by humans and humans are prone to err.” However, that argument does not justify flaying the sunnah altogether.

You’ve also rightfully stated that “Allah has vouched to protect the Quran…”, and indeed He has and He will, till the end of time. However, He has also commanded the believers to ‘atiullaha wa ‘atiur-rasool’ (obey the Quran and obey the messenger PBUH)” in many places throughout the Quran. I`m sure you must have noticed them.

By virtue of Allah’s promise to protect the Quran, He also implies a promise to protect the Sunnah. Why? Because our Prophet (PBUH)’s whole life demonstrates how a human being should follow the Quran and lead the life Allah has chosen for him, for his (mankind) benefit and not Allah`s own. If Allah did not protect the Sunnah, then people would distort it any which way the desire. (Again recent examples, Salman Rushdie, Amina Wadud, Asra Nomani, Irshad Manji, PMU with its MWU, and some on this board including yourself)

For example, many places in the Quran Allah asks us to pray as it is the second pillar of Islam. But no where one can find the requirements and the method of praying. The companions of the Prophet (ra) only learned to pray as the Prophet (PBUH) told them to, because that`s how he (PBUH) was told to perform by Allah. He (PBUH) also told/demonstrated the exceptions to them. I hope you lose your belligerence and get the point.

Furthermore, what seems rambling to you is my deliberate attempt not to get involved in the gambling of faith. As you’ve rightly pointed out, these are not trivial matters and involve “human life and basic dignity, and not some esoteric philosophical discussion.” The human life and basic dignity you present is just one minute aspect of it.

Your Sought After Examples

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Before I get into the example, I must tell you that I’m immensely amused by your Rummy-eque “absolute nonsense” and “sheer nonsense”. They suggest you’re in a similar agitated or complacent state as when he (Rumsfeld) gets when put on the spot.

Anyway…imagine if Shari’a was implemented in the USA tomorrow. Let’s consider the EXTREME cases in which the death penalty will be meted out and their consequences.

Fornication/Adultery/Rape:

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For a man and/or woman to be executed for this crime, there must be four credible witnesses who have seen the actual act, if you know what I mean, which by the very definition makes it a very Extreme case.

The candidates in the contemporary society would be the celebrities from the growing multi-billion dollar porn industry.

Now, once if even one of them is executed for this crime,
- how many new ones do you think will enter this profession?
- how many young girls and boys kidnapped from abroad will be sold into this profession?
- how many current professionals will be comfortable to continue, this profession? I hate to be repetitive, but I’d say not many. What do you think?

The few losers in this case:
- the entire production teams,
- studios and printing presses, not to forget the VHS, DVD manufacturers
- “adult” toy manufacturers and their outlets
- sperm banks (which provide such material to the donors)
- financial banks which offer credit cards for the consumers’ convenience to obtain such material…shhhhh ‘anonymously’
- plastic surgeons and their employees who offer male and female augmentation
- last but not least, government which makes a bundle in taxes from sales and personnel paychecks, of the aforementioned

Naturally, implementing shari’a will also require the government to destroy the pornographic material. Then the question arises,
- how many will be willing to, or could, make more?
- what would be the probability of your children feasting their innocent eyes on them through VHS, DVD, internet, cable, and print? Pretty slim, I would say… wouldn’t you?

Few Losers:
o The entire industry
o Its supporting industries
o Copyrights, and all other kinds of lawyers (I’m sure you can figure it out on your own)
o Again, last but not least the government which collects incredible amounts of revenue as taxes

Similarly, in order to curb the endemic promiscuity, people will be flogged when convicted.

- How many men and women would want to take a risk? Not many, I’m sure your “human dignity” and honesty will concur with me on this count too.
- How would it affect the worsening STD situation?

How do you think it will affect the prevailing problems of:
- rapes – date rapes, occasional indiscretions, as well as serial rapes
- how would it affect the official US governmental agencies statistics which report that every few minutes, if not seconds, a woman is raped in the country?
- unwanted pregnancies
- infanticide and abortion
- child abuse
- the school environment and education
- marital breakups due to infidelities
There may be more areas that will be affected, but I’m sure you get the picture.

Few Losers:
- Prostitution industry with all its players (Oh my God, what will happen to Nevada?)
- Alcohol industry
- Drug industry
- “Male entertainment” outfits
- Fashion clothing that show more skin than cloth
- Nudist resorts and beaches
- The influential public figures, as they’d not be able to get some on the side
- Pharmaceutical industry that has inundated the market with prophylactics and birth control, “performance`` and organ enhancers for men and women
- The plastic surgeons and their employees who are minting money with male and female augmentation
- Medical professionals who perform abortions
- Lawyers and their employees for all kinds of cases, from paternity suits to abuse cases
- Law enforcement agencies due to loss of jobs, since there would not be many such cases
- again last but not least, government which makes a bundle in taxes from sales and personnel paychecks, from the aforementioned professions/markets
- I almost forgot, publishers of material like kamasutra (I would apologize to kaalchakra, but since he insisted not to do so… I won’t)

I hope you are beginning to understand the benefits of an effective law vis a vis its leniency.

Murder

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I’m sure you subscribe to the Islamic code on this one, either because it makes sense to you or perhaps because it is also a part of the man-made American constipation… I mean, constitution, that’s why you’ve never brought it up in this discussion.

Still, if the Shari’a is instituted, the convicted murderers would be beheaded publicly, sooner than they’re currently executed in the USA.

- How many people will think long and hard about committing one or hiring a contract killer? Still, I would guess not many.
- How many minor homicidal maniacs will be able to get away with their mischief?

Few Losers:
- NRA and its member arms manufacturers
- Trial lawyers
- Public and private law enforcement due to loss of jobs owing to reduction in crime rate
- The prison industry, about which I read in late 80s that the annual cost of incarceration of one inmate in a maximum security prison was USD40,000, which is collected from the tax payers… and such prisons were over-crowded even back then. I don’t even want to imagine the latest figures
- The government at large due to
o reduced tax revenues from arms sales to individuals,
o reduced revenue in court charges

Mushriks

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If you had read the biography of the Prophet (PBUH), you would know that the extremes cases in this matter are the ones who were hell-bent on the destruction of the ummah. The rest were spared if they either became Muslims, or promised not to engage in spreading dissent against Allah.

Please read Syed Qutb’s Milestones for explanation on different types of apostates and how they should be dealt with within the Islamic territories. Sahih Bukhari, Tirmidhi, and Muslim are even better sources.

If shari’a was instituted tomorrow in the grand ol’ USA, the godless mushriks will be the only ones who would be crying due to severe loss of revenues and an end to their exploitation of women and men, in the aforementioned examples. Decent God fearing would prefer the “overall” (feel free to expand the term as much as you can) benefits over the temporary financial losses of the few.

Why?

Because, dear Sattar, the myopic mushriks are only focused on this life, thus wish to collect and horde as much money as they can; God fearing decent people don’t run after material at the expense of morality, security, and law & order.

Secondly, they would not be able to cause a rift between the believers with Good Muslim, Bad Muslim terminologies, which consequently would allow the aforementioned examples to prevail and security to be maintained. Similarly, the likes of kaalchakra will not be able to pit you and I against each other as attempted in his post #209… and he wasn’t even subtle about it.

The likes of him would not even dare to lure uninformed Muslim women to his pagan, agnostic, and polytheistic ideologies. God forbid, one of those women could be your wife, sister, or daughter.

But you probably don’t care about such things, because from your statement: “Sunnah and ahadith are passed down by humans and humans are prone to err. History almost always gets distorted, despite best intentions of narrators and recorders”, you’re probably an active member of PMU / muslimwakeup.com. Some time last year, one of their members made a similar claim, personally to yours truly.

Or… judging by Kaalchakra’s pronouncement: “I salute you, Sir. Sufis, Ahmedis, and other such groups who have no place in the political and civilizational core of Islam are the only ones who defend and spread Islam” you could very well be an Ahmedi or a deviant Sufi (which only includes some perverted ones, not all).

In either event, their fallacy should be pretty clear by now from the aforementioned examples.

What needs to be understood about Islam vis a vis life, is that everything in this universe is connected in one way or another. In human societies, the economy, social life, spirituality, law & order, you name it. A blow to one affects the others, which may or may not be apparent immediately.

I hope you’re only an informed sincere Muslim who fits the description I’ve described in the previous posts. And if this is the case, then I hope you snap out of your arrogance of your incomplete knowledge and complacency and see the reality in its bitter form, as well as the precautions and solutions Islam provides.

Otherwise, I would have to say to you what Allah has instructed the believers in the Quran: if a person of the book (Christian, Jew) tries to engage you in an argument over faith, simply tell them that Allah had revealed to you what He revealed to them, and you chose to believe in it… and walk away.

Again, I’m not here to convert anyone, but to invite people to study Islam with sincerity and make good use of their intelligence. Their conversion is up to Allah only.

And to disbelievers when they try to engage you in a stupid argument instead of demonstrating intelligence by listening, processing, and then making a decision, (as per Allah’s instruction in the Quran) just say ‘salaam’!

So, if you’re secure about your ‘father’s religion’ then come out with your identity, if you dare to.

Your ``And finally…``

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It is your misconception that Muslims generally denounce material wealth. Au contraire, we cherish it, as these are generous gifts from Allah, which we can share with others in return of more tremendous rewards from Allah.

We don’t believe in hording as we are instructed by Allah in the very Quran you refer to, and reminded repeatedly by our Prophet (PBUH). But then again you probably don’t believe in the latter, which, by virtue of Allah’s previously mentioned instruction, renders your interpretation of Quran meaningless. Not to mention your faith in Allah as nothing more than farce simply to suit your conveniences and luxury and be accepted by the anti-Muslim demagogues.

Conclusion

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I concur with you that shair’a “has become” a confounded term. It is not restricted to the Islamic legal code, rather it encompasses even the minutest aspect of life. The legal code of the Shari’a is for its enforcement and to maintain law & order in the society. Needless to say, shari’a law has been abused due to years of wanton flaying and filleting with impunity…Ahmedis and some deviant brittle nut Sufis are prime examples.

I also concur with you that Quran should be the source of guidance above and beyond everything. There are a lot of things in the Quran which do not become apparent to an uninformed person. For such situations, one must consult a bona fide exegesis, if not all of them.

If the person is still unable to grasp the concept, then very definition of faith in Allah demands that we carry out His orders as an act of obedience. Why, you may ask?

The simple reason being, primarily a human mind is incapable of absorbing everything at once.

Secondly, our relationship with Allah is similar to our relationship with our parents. When we were born, we did not even know how to suck on our mothers’ bosom to eliminate our hunger. Our mothers had to train us. Similarly, they trained us for everything except crying incessantly out of hunger or pain or discomfort. These parents, guardians, and elders continued to train us until we reached a certain age when we learned the word WHY? In some cases we listened to the responses and in others we didn’t. For the ones we didn’t, we learned of its wisdom when we either got hurt or witnessed others achieving something admirable through their obedience; e.g. education.

Therefore, Allah tells His creatures to ‘obey’, study, think, and ponder, and eventually His divine wisdom will become apparent to us in due time. Even if it doesn`t, simply obey, because whatever Allah asks us to do or don`t do are good, better, and best for us.

Quran was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH) over 23 years according to the need of His divine instructions in specific situations. Allah could have revealed it all in one instance, but people could not fathom all of it immediately, as is the case with pseudo-western liberals. Therefore, gradual revelation according to the circumstances helped the believers to understand and thus follow the commandments with relative ease.

Another thing Allah says so many times in the Quran is to “obey Allah and obey the Messenger (PBUH)”. Again, I can cite the specific verses, but I will not do it for the reasons you currently don’t agree with.

Now, why would Allah ask us to obey the Messenger (PBUH)? The apparent reason to me is that Allah built Mohammad (PBUH)’s credibility since his birth. Please read about Haleema S’adia (ra)’s witnessing of miracles (not just one) when she took him (PBUH) in her care from his infancy till his early childhood.

As he (PBUH) grew up, despite his seemingly menial work of shepherding and salesmanship/trading later on, EVERY SINGLE person in Makka believed in his honesty, integrity, and righteousness. All other prophets (PBUT) before him were raised in a similar manner for people to heed to their message given to them by Allah.

Then Allah sent Jibra’eel (as) to him, so he (PBUH) didn’t have to have a blind faith in Allah either. I hope you can think and expand on this point on your own too.

He then started receiving commandments from Allah through Jibra’eel (as) and demonstrated to his companions (ra) how those commandments should be followed.

Therefore, Allah orders us to obey Mohammad (PBUH) as well because He knows He has not given us a big enough mind and we cannot fathom all His commandments on our own, therefore made it mandatory for us to follow Mohammad (PBUH) because he carried out those commandments with absolute perfection.

If one believes in obeying Allah, then he/she must believe in Mohammad (PBUH) and follow him as well. Otherwise, we would not be following Allah as we should be. Consequently, that would cause corrosion of our faith in Allah, bid’a, and all kinds of problems we are witnessing throughout the Muslim nation and the world at large. Not to mention, we may end up dying in a state of hypocrisy or as a disbeliever.

Now, before you set out to study Quran and Sunnah, please allow me to suggest a gem of a book to you; Uloom-ul-Quran, beautifully authored by Justice Taqi Uthmani.

Speaking of confounded terms, think about the “fanatic”. By your definition, it is a person who sticks to opinion hardheadedly; without an open mind to listen to reasons alien to him.

By that measure, you could be labeled as “liberal fanatic”, with ill-conceived notions of liberalism as propagated by the west in particular; who refuses to even look into the reasons for the prescribed way of life as laid out in the Holy Quran and authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) despite the fact that this one book (Quran) continues to be the best seller (to put in conventional buzzword terminology) ever since its revelation.

``True`` liberals always seek and listen to reason instead of forming opinions on flimsy impressions which may or may not reflect the truth.

By the way, for future references, it’s Voila, not Whooaalaaa.

M’as-salaam ya ayyuhal-muslimeen

one_world,

I have quickly put together a long rant, a rant potentially most dangerous for me. It may be most dangerous because it will seem to directly question the beliefs of the Muslims I admire the most, people whose value systems are closest to mine. (sattar saheb, if you do look it over, kindly forgive my impudence).

My only defense is that I am describing some difficulties with Islam honestly as I see them. There are few proofs and justifications here. Mostly gut feel, sometimes based on evidence, sometimes not.

My basic idea is that no one ought to expect Islam to lead into the world into greater equity and justice any more than do or did any other religions. Islam`s great strengths come at the tremendous costs to its own long-term positive usefulness. Accompanied as those strengths are with Islam fascination with and seemingly unshakeable commitment to extremely misleading rhetoric.

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One_world, you described Karachi seeing more saudi-inspired `thousand black crows.` But no matter what you report, most modern Muslim intellectuals cannot accept Islam as a form of discriminatory global Arab Imperialism. A global imperialism that is intellectual, cultural, and significantly political.

Interestingly, many of sharpest Muslim intellectuals often turn out to Indian/subcontinental converts (one source of their great facility with ideas, which they have taken into Islam`s service:)) or their associates. They would very much like to believe in the idealized promised myth - that in removing caste and race distinctions Islam somehow became an ideology of universalism.

For the latest developments, jetsetting Muslims are now pegging their hope on the NEW global and international brotherhood as the long-promised route to modern, universal egalitarianism of Islam.


Yet, in the history of perhaps all human thought, few `truths` have been more glibly and thoughtlessly asserted, more unquestioningly accepted, and been more tragically bereft of basis or foundation, than the assumed universality and egalitarianism of Islam.

But who can visualize inegalitarianism when the religion`s dominant self-image is of a great mass of people from around the world, of all races, holding hands, in brotherhood, around the same Kaaba?! :)


All I would say is that you get only get a false sense, a hope easily and very willingly cultivated as reality.

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The difficulty in acknowledging this fact is very real. (To normal, freedom-loving, and non militaristic people) Islam offers few significant benefits other than its much-promised egalitarianism.

Thus to question Islam`s claim of universality and egalitarianism is to uproot the very holy of all Islamic intellectual holies.

A mere Hindu making this claim is not going to convince any Muslim! What do we caste-experts know about egalitarianism? :)

(Actually, who else would know what not to do than us, the champion experts of inequality?? But that won`t appeal to many here)

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Meanwhile, any outsider notices two very strange facts:

(1) West-, even India-inspired, modern Muslim intellectuals are forever and constantly getting surprised by Islam`s directional tendencies. They want to pull their great religion forward. The rest of Muslims invariably want to go back.

(2) All around we find a (hilarious/sad?) inversion of Islam`s fictionalized and real identities. The farther a ``Muslim`` finds himself or herself from the REAL power, discourse, and civilizational centers of Islam, the more rational and reasonable he sounds to the rest of the world.


(Unlike REAL ideologies and religions, REAL things and places can be identified with full accuracy. Thus we can say that brother Sattar is not near any core of Islam political and discursive life)

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Yet such inversions might be very hard to see from inside of Islam. Over time, an unsympathetic external observer suspects, Islam has mastered and perfected an native mechanism for logical fudging. So, peripheral ``Muslims`` - who anywhere else would also know their situation - forever astonish (only) non Muslims by claiming to know the REAL Islam.

Like the Sufis who can`t stop claiming Islam for themselves, even as they are ridiculed and rejected by supposed ``non Muslim`` other Muslims.

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That`s why I can lay a bet with anyone. The truly inegalitarian Hinduism will keep leaving Islam in the dust every passing year in covering its comparatively longer journey to social justice and social empowerment. The problem is that Islam simply has no mechanism to enable its `core` followers to even understand and acknowledge its deepest problems. (I am quite aware of ijtihad)

So, $100.00 over the next 20 years anyone? You win if, over the next two decades, Islam can be reasonably argued to have covered even half the distance that Hinduism will cover in empowering its own people.

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For various historical/cultural reasons, Iran is and will continue to be an exception. It`s trajectory will be partly tied to and partly free of Arab Imperialist Islam. About the awaited impact of `international` Islam, the less said the better.

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These are my very pessimistic, but totally honest predictions. I will be glad to be proven wrong. But I won`t be. And, just to provoke some good folks into giving their assumptions another massage, at least over the next 20 years, I am willing to bet a small sum of $ 100.00 at today`s rate!

Re: # 214 kaalchakra,

I don`t know if you ever return to this page or not, but I like to mention that being a hindu, your empathy for muslims/pakistanis and their problems is remarkable, simply out of this world. I can`t even imagine myself getting into the shoes of hindus and thinking with this much positivity.

I solute your emotion.

And sattar sahib,

I am afraid to say that you don`t seem to live in the real world. The view of Islam that you have is mostly because of the good man inside yourself. My sincerest suggestions for yourself is, either to go backward or come forward from the position you are taking right now. Going backward is easy, but you will just have to kill the nice person who resides inside you. But going forward is a lot difficult. You will have to confront large scale agonies and mental torture. But at least, I am sure that this is where the good man inside you will find it`s `gayaan`.

MJ

why u all idiots defending veil..i live in fuking saudi and i know it feels am here since fuking 1982 and all the men want to see a woman naked..so why shy about it ?

the problem with saudi and some of sick pakis who leave saudi n go back pakistan specially karachi...they wana show saudism in pakistan!

karachi has becoem a hell too...u go go anywhere u`ll see veils now...like thousands of black crow !
what u hiding inside ur ugly face or tits...u go europe lovely babes lie topeless at beaches..so shame on u sick Burka ladies!

MJ,

A follow up comment on the issue of blasphemy that was raised earlier ...

Quran commands believers to simply avoid the company of those who blaspheme. While it mentions and discourages blasphemy ... even against Gods of others ... , it does not suggest any punishment for the blasphemers … and only asks believers to sever social ties with them. That`s all.

In contrast, the mullahs insist that blasphemers of Islam be killed! While blasphemy against anyone’s faith or gods is a despicable act … killing blasphemers in itself is a heinous act. It shows utter disregard for human life and dignity … and openly violates the sensible teachings of Quran on this issue.

Peace and regards.

++++++

Kaalchakra,

Thanks for your kind comments. I hope and pray that people, all of us, make efforts to appreciate and adopt the good we find in each other … and shun hatred and injustice at all levels in our societies.

++++++

Temporal bhai …

Thanks for the encouragement. I am a bit of a back-bencher … who occasionally gets tangled up in brawls in back alleys of chowk. Nevertheless I’ll keep your comments in mind … later dude ...

see nt,

at least sattar talks to the point and with some sense.

come on man, these are basic communication skills. how would you be a successful preacher if you lack even these basic traits of successsful men?

mj

Syed Sahib (#201):

When pressed for specifics, you have become vague and appear to be rambling. If you are unable to articulate your reasons, you cannot rightfully support death for others. This issue involves human life and basic dignity, not some esoteric philosophical discussion.

Quran, Sunnah, and Ahadith

Sunnah and ahadith are passed down by humans and humans are prone to err. History almost always gets distorted, despite best intentions of narrators and recorders. Allah has vouched to protect the Quran … and therefore Quran is the foremost criterion for a believer. My earlier post to Malik Sahib illustrates this in a little more detail.

What extreme conditions?...

You have also failed to provide a single example … where killing people for worshipping other deities can benefit the ummah. Feel free to come up with an extreme example. You seem to think that mentioning the disclaimer of “extreme conditions” … validates your views. It does not. You have made vague comments, without providing reasons for your views.

If anything, so far you have only presented arguments on why you should not be presenting arguments to support your views. Whooaalaaa … this is absolute nonsense.

And finally …

Bashing materialism and advanced nations does not validate your views. Especially when you remain vague on reasons and rationale for your own views.

And no, I am not implying that you are stuck in 6th century. Fanaticism has existed in all ages, and this day is not exception. You are simply a fanatic.

Neither do I see Islam as stuck in 6th century. My view is that Islam helps establish a close relationship between man and His Creator. It aims to reform basic human instincts. Misuse of these instincts has brought about pain and misery for people in all ages, and this day is no exception.

Sattar2

I salute you, Sir. Sufis, Ahmedis, and other such groups who have no place in the political and civilizational core of Islam are the only ones who defend and spread Islam.

I wonder what ntsyed thinks of all this, other than as the happy, but purely political and material convenience against non Muslims.

I look forward to his telling us if he sees himself as sharing the same basic spiritual experience as you do.

Malikjahanzeb (#199),

“Sharia” is somewhat of a confounded term … with different connotations to different individuals. Quran being the Word of Allah should be the main source of guidance for a believer. Problems arise as followers step over the boundaries and twist scripture for social, political, economic gains. Issues raised here illustrate this to some extent.

Apostasy

Quran mentions apostasy in several places … but does not even remotely suggest any punishment for apostates in this world. It states that the issue rests between Allah and the individual. Furthermore, Quran states that those who apostatize, but later revert back to Islam, will be looked upon mercifully by Allah Almighty.

These commandments leave no doubt that there is no worldly punishment for apostasy in Islam. Killing apostates, besides being an inhuman act that forces religion on man, rules out the possibility of an apostate reverting back to Islam … thus rendering Quranic injunctions useless.

Adultery

Similarly, Quran specifies lashes as punishment for adultery. It also states that fornicators should be given half the punishment given to an adulterer. How can a mullah rightfully demand execution for adultery? And besides, how do you give half-a-death to a fornicator?

Quick comment: Punishment for adultery, like any other crime, requires 4 (or is it 2, I forgot) witnesses. These witnesses would exist if adultery is done as an offensive public display … which violates one’s common and civil sensibilities.

I hope this explains my faith in the religion of my father …

Syed Saheb

Please step out of the religious tradition that personalizes religious views and emphasizes emotions and nerves :)

Shastrarth, or ijtehad, is your religious obligation. You shouldn`t apologize for it.

Do scientists apologize for contradicting one another? They don`t because they are secure in the validity of their system.

Re. #204:

Kaalchakra Saheb,

I apologize if my ``personal`` assessment touched a raw nerve; that was not the intent. You asked for my opinion and it was provided to you.

Again, ``personally`` I think one should pay more attention to the knowledge that he/she can benefit from regardless of how long one lives.

The knoweldge obtained from the book in question becomes meaningless once a person is unable to practice this INNATE function that all animals are able to perform without reading it... if you get my drift. Unless of course, the person is a pervert, and there`s no limit to perversion as one can see in the modern secular societies like the west.

What people of the subcontinent should follow is entirely up to them. However, they should not try to distort/change Islam based on their obscure views.

They should be free to practice 1400 year old religion or the 14000 years old one.

Speaking of valuable productions, I`m sure you`ve looked into the one invented by a Murar J Desai.

I`m tempted to continue this childish argument with you just for the sake of it, but right now I have more important things to do. So perhaps some other time; it`ll give you some time to relax, reflect on your thoughts, and grow a little.

Ciao.