Pakistan Travelogue I

Re: # 461 chakra,

satyamvada is an abdul-hate, a trouble maker. he is nt-syed of your side. beware of him.

;-)

Re: # 458

ustaad, too pakka dheet hay.

even though, I am a janami dushman of islam, pakka dozakhi and wish to lead the prayers on demise of islam but still i think that it is one of the very few things about islam that it inherently defies caste-ism. islam is so greedy about its spreading that it takes caste system as a hinderance in its way and therefore goes as far as explicitly discouraging this philosophy. i know this to be a fact and do not need a hindu with quarter-baked knowledge of islam to tell me this.

so mr. barahman, i hope this will help.

Hamidm2,

The plantations at coorg is now unfortunately owned by natives. You will also need
them to bring you the booze and the stuff to smoke, so be nice to them until
atleast the time you leave.

...... the reaction of the horrible hindoos on this board has been an eye-opener for me ........... for some reason i thought they were a little bit more civilized than us pakis - i guess i was wrong and the problem is genetic ......... i think i will stay on the plantation in coorg and avoid the natives ..........

Satyamvada

I NEED your feedback!


LOL...please. I have a feeling you think it is a foolish idea. Why? :)

Kardesh

If we don`t easily find `low-caste` people to do puja for us, can we approach a `high-caste` rajput like you to read something over in english or turrkish? Become an official brahmin for an hour? But not much baksheeh. Pundits are pretty poorly paid.

Howzdat?

Notice the fundamental difference between Indians and Pakistanis.
None of the Indians tried to cover up anything on the caste-related issues
in Indian society but want to criticize and hopefully improve.

Wheras the Pakistanis, kept quiet about the existence of caste in islamic
societies and pretend as if everything is all right.
That is the difference between Indians and Pakistanis.

Some naive Indian punjabis however will go across to pakiland eat oil-soaked
food, sing bhalle bhalle and then proclaim we are all the same.

#444 Faruk, {``But no one from my great great grandfather onwards has married a Rajput.
We have pretty detail records of that time, there is no mention of any cooperation with the English. Lot of literature about family members who fought but that might have been skipped.``}

Well, I welcome you as a fellow Rajput. Also glad to learn that your ancestors did not cooperate with the British. I hear that my own family had lands in UP from Mughal times and had to escape to Jaipur to save their lives after the British came back. I plan to find out more when I visit Jaipur later this year. Nice ``talking`` to you.

MaheshG2, #445, {``Hinduism does not stipulate castes.``}
I am glad that you can say this with such certainty. Then, there is all the more reason to abolish this curse. Believe me, I have no interest in demeaning Hinduism or India (except in cricket :). I wish to have all my Hindu brothers to enjoy life in honor and safety. It is such a relief to learn that casteism is not sanctioned by that great religion.
Thanks,

Satyamvada,
My friend, please understand that this hiearchy of Sayyad, Quraish, etc is meaningless in Islamic society. These are just dubious honors that will get you a cup of coffee for about $1 maybe $3 at Starbucks. There are however, serious problems having to do with sectariansim - and that is a real curse ever since the beginning. Also, we can`t really lie about it with suicide bombers blowing themselves up and members of the other sect along with them. I wish you erase casteism and we get rid of sectariansim for the benefit of all. Please try to be understanding - I am not putting down Hinduism or Islam.

Kaura,
Rajput turbans may be colorful, but they are not as pretty as Sikh turbans.

Folks

Can any of you give feedback on # 452? Let`s assume the logistics can be managed. Anybody thinks that that is not a useful way forward? What problems will this in-your-face experiment run into? Is there something about it that will limit its influence even if everything could be done as proposed?

Most particularly, anybody have any philosophical arguments to oppose such a move? Like the kind Muslims have been using against people like Amina Wadud?

Some very honest, totally heart-felt, completely prejudiced, casteist - if they are strongly believed - answers needed! :)

Vivek,

We Hindus have worried enough about our own for a long time and we have
improved (and there is more to learn and improve).

But it is also time to learn and understand others, their values and systems.
Atleast in a forum like chowk, shouldnt the truth be told ?

Compare the institutions and systems of India with that of Pakistan.
The two are not the same.

satyamvada #453,
Islam has its own problems, and hinduism its own. As hindus, shouldn`t we be more worried about solving our problems, before complaining about others.

Satyamvada

Please. Give Islam a rest. If we survived centuries of political domination, their opinions and views are not going to make much of a difference now.

Apna problem solve karein! How? Ideas? May be something will be practical and effective!

Satyamvada

Problems of Islam are many and mindboggling, but those are hardly our concern. Our own moral issue is to end the caste-related sufferings of our own Hindu brothers and sisters wherever we can.

Although most Pakistanis still have arranged marriages to people within the same tribe, caste or family, it is no longer unheard of for couples to marry after having fallen in love or met over the internet.
http://www.bestrishtay.com/cwws/interviews/printableversion.htm

While there is still a lot of improvement needed in Indian social conditions, the islamic
societies in general are way way behind.
The advantage of India is of course, an open society where criticism is accepted
and there is constant push for improvement. But Islam, is already perfect so what
is the need for improvement. More importantly - chowkies from Pakistan will
lie and indulge in coverup, rather than being honest.

So, each time we see the difference between Pakistan and India is really in
fundamental societal values and institutions.
Of course, self styled ``liberal`` Pakistanis want Indians to believe that Pakiland
is the same as India. Fundoos in Pakiland are atleast honest about their bigotry,
the self styled moderates indulge in lying and pretend that Pakistan and India
are the same.

re: Netizen # 450

Great idea. For sometime a zany ideas has been brewing in my mind, that I wish I could share in confidence with a group of intelligent, committed Hindus. In a very mild form, it is this:

What would happen if a signficant numbers of us (even those like me who have never cared to have any Pujas) publicly decided to let ONLY HIndus of the so-called shudra parents perform Pujas for us, and henceforth lead us in any meals/bhoj etc.

If there are enough of us, and we do this at regular intervals, with all possible fanfare, at multiple locations, so every laggard Hindu knows what we are doing, then what will happen?

It is funny that the pakis want to make `caste` inherent to Hindus, when infact
the respected personalities of dharma come from all of society:
Krishna-Dvaipaayana -a fisherman- the author of the Mahabharata
Valmiki -a hunter- author of the Ramayana
Nachiketa - Upanishads/vedanta - he becomes a brahmin sage - based on his conduct
though his mother is a prostitute.
Even Krishna is a gwala - a cowherd (The Pakis may not like if they know that
even lalloo-prasad goes around saying he is like a modern day Krishna)
There are many many temples around India where Brahmins are NOT the priests,
There are numerous large temples owned and run by non-Brahmins and they may or
may not employ brahmin priests. In states like Kerala, Tamilnadu, Karnataka,
Maharashtra, UP. Gujarat - there are thousands of non-brahmin priests.

Let us now look at the world of Islam:
Saudi Arabia is the most casteist of all places - the original tribes
(including the Quraish - to which Muhammad belonged to) are the highest of the high.
Muslims that claim descent from the original arabic tribes refuse to
marry local desi converts in the subcontinent.
In almost all of the Islamic world there are number of castes, groups that only
marry and eat food within their groups. There are castes in Iran.

In Pakiland, Caste is routine question that has to be answered on all forms. Actually
more Pakistanis will know more about their caste than many Indians. The upper
caste muslims like the Syeds, Qureshis look down upon the petty small time converts.

In India, the society is open and everything (good, bad and ugly) is known to all.
However, Pakistani society is closed and pretends to be superior.
I really hope that all Indians get a chance to read and understand the urdu press
of Pakistan, then they will know the nature of paki society.