Country Visa, City Visa

rsidhar #57: ``However, this should not stop research workers, NGOs to go and investigate on ground and write their own history. This is what i am talking about. A history based on facts, shorn of govt interference and ideologies. Only then the truth will come out.``

This is true.

However, at some stage, if people really want peace, as they claim they do, then they have to express a desire for an objective analysis of their past and present. They should, at the very least, express it on public sites, like this one. I rarely see that.

There has to be a truth and reconciliation type of effort, which objectively reviews the history of the Sub-Continent, India and Pakistan. And re-interprets it. And objectively accesses all areas of these countries and Kashmir and Bangladesh etc., and talks with the locals to find out who is doing what to whom. Who is/was a terrorist? Who is/was committing state terrorism? Etc. And then opens up all this information to the world.......

Until then, it is merely a case of, ``He said, she said.`` However, I think very few people on this website, even, would be willing to encourage something like that. This is why I have generally doubted many people`s desire for actual peace. They tend to want peace at their own terms, stuffed down the throat of the other..........

#44 Amit,
What proof do you have that Pakistan is searching for their soul. They have their soul intrinsically connected with Islam. You have made a very wrong assumptions about majority of pakistan would like to be connected to india because of their obsession with Hindi movies. Hindi movies are also famous in iran, iraq, egypt, israel, etc. That does not mean they feel connected to india. Movies are for fun. You watch them and forget them. Dont read too much about Pakistani enjoying indian movies.
We do not have to win over pakistan. They are an individual country and so are we. We would like to have peace with them and trade with them but other than that nothing else. You talking about winning them over is too filmi.
Malaysia and indonesia might feel like pluralistic society but they seem to be going towards fundamentalism. The pluraistic attitude was developed because of the economic reasons.
The U-turn of pakistan is their afghanistan policy. Not much with india. the infiltrations seems to be down but it can be increased again quickly. there are still training camps in pakistan. they have not removed them.
I hope you break out of your unrealisitc shell quickly.

Re #55 Romair

``giving up on their atut-ang stance, i.e Pakistan has agreed to give up on it, if India does``

Romair,

Isn`t India willing to not claim entire J&K i.e. not claiming what Pakistan controls (including
Northern Areas) and what China controls a major concession i.e. part of the ang has
been toot already and India is willing to accept that toota hua ang?

re:#54 by Romair
Your second proposal is a non-starter. Indians may be willing but no govt of the day would like to reveal the skeletons in the closet, especially if the results threaten its continuance in power. Indian govt is paranoid about these things. Did u hear the extent to which congress govt went to hide the truth about Subhash Bose`s death?
However, this should not stop research workers, NGOs to go and investigate on ground and write their own history. This is what i am talking about. A history based on facts, shorn of govt interference and ideologies. Only then the truth will come out.
Sridhar

re: malikjahanzeb # 45

Having read your interacts on the Abaya board, it`s odd that any Hindu would disagree with you on anything. But in high risk conditions, people become less willing to make distinctions among one Hindu or Muslim and another Hindu or Muslim.

Even a Badshah Khan would have aroused suspicions today. It`s good that the great man died when he did. The rest of us are surely headed to hell :(

Dost-mittar #51: I agree with parts of your post and disagree with other parts.

I think Musharraf has literally hung everything out for peace. He has risked his own military leadership, his political career and even his own life, for it. He has made concessions that no other Pakistani (or Indian) has ever made. And he has actually presented solution from the Pakistan side, pre-emptively, which is based on both sides giving up on their atut-ang stance, i.e Pakistan has agreed to give up on it, if India does........Now everyone is waiting for India..........And I think the Indian decision to drop the passport restriction on travel in Kashmir is a step in this direction.........

One has to judge leaderships and leaders by what they do. Not what they say........Vajpayee used to attack Pakistan, now and then verbally, but on the ground moved for peace........

Regarding the cricket series: I think there is genuine relationship between the Punjabis. This is what the Indians saw in Pakistan. They saw the same thing in Karachi, since Karachi is the center of the Muhajir community, which has a lot of relationship with relatives in India. Since almost 2/3rd of Pakistan is Punjabi and hence there is a large Punjabi factor, involved, from the Pakistan side.

Pakistanis have seen the same thing in Indian Punjab on this tour. But India is a lot bigger than Punjab. So, the matches in Calcutta and Bangalore, have not had the same reaction. The crowd was nice, but it certainly did not match the enthusiasm of the Punjabi crowds on both sides of the border (or Karachi crowd). Following is an interesting article from an Indian writer in Bangalore, for the largest cricket website in the world:

``The silence of Pakistan`s victory

Rahul Bhattacharya

March 28, 2005

As India slide to defeat, the silence that greets Pakistan`s efforts borders on the graceless

The sustained silence that greeted Pakistan`s extraordinary victory today was the lowest point of a superb Test series. Given how a year ago applause had poured in for a dramatic last-ball victory by the Indians at Karachi, an applause that then resonated for the rest of the tour, Bangalore was an embarrassment...............It should be perhaps spelt out here that there was no viciousness on view. Rather it was an indifference, one which has been evident over the last few days...................But just as there was a leaf to be taken out of Pakistan`s marvellous performance by the Indian cricket team, so should there be one for the Indian spectators from their counterparts`. This insularity is regressive and terribly disturbing.`` (www.cricinfo.org)

So I am not sure how much the South Indians have bought into this bhai-bhai stuff. The differences between Mohali, and Calcutta/Bangalore were quite obvious to me, when I was watching the matches. It seems obvious Punjabis (and perhaps North Indians, as a whole, have bought into it............

rsidhar #46: `` revision of Pak history on more modern lines, keeping in mind the facts and getting rid of hatred and ideologies, would be a good beginning towards reconciliation.``

There are two things that need to happen in the Sub-Continent. And I have always felt anyone who doesn`t agree with these two things, is just parroting, ``peace,`` but doesn`t really want it. He/she only wants peace on his/her own terms........These are as follow:

1. The whole history of the Sub-Continent needs to be studied and written in a very objective manner. Define what the Muslim invaders did to the Hindu locals. And define with Hindu kings did to other Hindu kings. And what happened during partition etc. And who did what to whom. etc. etc.

2. All of the Sub-Continent needs to be opened up to human rights organizations to see what is happening now. Let the international media talk with the locals and see who is a terrorist and who is a victim. Specifically so, in Kashmir, where each country presents its own picture. People talk of intra-people communication. This should be extended to everyone. Ask them what they want. Ask them who is harming them, and who is helping them.

And then accept the results....Perhaps all of the above should be led by international organizations, who have credibility, to avoid local biases........

This will allow us to get a correct picture of the past and the present. Only then can people decide who is right and who is wrong. My guess is that most Pakistanis will realize that their understanding of the past is wrong. And that most Indians will realize that their understanding of the present is wrong..........

Anyone scared to initiate this or oppose it, obviously has a lot to hide, and can, thus, never be a source of genuine peace...........

Requirement of foreigner registration is for visitors from many non-muslim countries also. So why should a Paki be upset about it? But really it is of no use. Because once registered if you act, look and behave like any Indian you will have no trouble visiting any place in India. How do the Paki terrorists go all the way to Kolkata (or even enter Bangladesh illegally)? That is the problem. India should have mandatory identification cards for all citizens. Otherwise registration and no registration it is useless. A Paki human carrying a nuke on a mule can easily pass through porous borders of India and can easily nuclear bomb any city of India. All anti-missile systems will be of no use if that is the ``delivery`` system used by an Islamic terrorist who has gained possesion of a crude nuke. Of course, Indians can do same as easily.

Re: # 38 kham
//...i being an ex-jihadi never used the recognised borders to get to the enemy territory ...//

Great - Now we have ex-jihadis peddling ``information`` on border management. Will the wonders ever cease :))

Romair#35

``I think if things open up between India and Pakistan, the comradarie will depend on the geographical region one belongs to. My guess is that four regions will blend together quite nicely, while the remaining will remain somewhat aloof.``

I think that there are tsunamic changes taking place between India and Pakistan. Indian establishment likes it, Pakistani establishment seems somewhat ambivalent about it, and keeps threatening of repeating a Kargil if the `core issue` is not resolved. It is wary of the reconciliation process taking its natural course if it means the `core issue` taking a back seat. This is why the Indian government is taking a very aggressive posture on this; the latest is that Pakistanis over 65 and under 12 can now enter India without a pre-approved visa, which would be given to them at the entry point itself.

While not ignoring the Kashmir issue, the basic cause of the hostility between India and Pakistan are the unhealed wounds of the Partition on Panjabis. Pakistani sindhis never suffered any wounds during the partition and they are the only Pakistanis who regret the loss of their Hindus. Muhajirs, especially those from east of Delhi, also did not suffer a huge trauma, most of them were migrants rather than refugees and did not lose even their properties as they left one or more members of their families in India. They still have close or distant relatives in India and even have contacts with them. They are least prejudiced against India and some of them have even started questioning the wisdom of the movement they led. Pathans, too, did not suffer any wounds during the partition. So, it is the Panjabis from both sides of the divide who have ghastly memories, which have been passed down to the next generation. This is what is changing now. This is where the effect of the relaxation of the visa is so evident. Panjabis went to Lahore last year during the cricket test and found that people there were warm, nice and hospitable and not very different from them. The same thing is happening in reverse now when Pakistanis are coming to India to watch cricket. If you have been reading excerpts from Tribune and other newspapers (somehow Pakistani media chose not to highlight these things) you would have noticed how they were ``overwhelmed`` and discovered that what they were TAUGHT was all wrong. On a lighter note, since you are so fond of using films as a source of knowledger, some of them were disappointed that Indian women were not dressed in gorgeous saris and jewellery that they are used to seeing in Saas-Bahu serials. It is this new development between Panjabis which is of huge significance. Panjabis are not that influencial in the Indian establishment, but the Indian establishment wants to aggressively pursue bilateral normalisation regardless of which party was in power, without compromising its position on issues of vital interests. However, the potential of key change is on the Pakistani side. Panjabis hold the sway on Pakistani establishment and if their old wounds are healed, it may be difficult for Pakistani establishment to raise the jihadi fever among them.

``I think Pakistanis greatly underestimate the Hindu Indians take on history and how affected they seem by it. Most Pakistanis do not go much into the Ghauris and Ghazanavis etc.``

This is somewhat exaggerated. Indians are not naming their missiles ``Shivaji`` or ``Rana Pratap``, it is Pakistanis who are naming theirs ``Ghauri`` and ``Ghazni``. Even history taught in Indian schools is not very different from that in Pakistan, except for the history of the indendence movement. During Nehru`s period, a successful effort was made under historians like Irfan Habib and Romila Thapar, to sanitise the Indian history from a secular/marxist/muslim perspetive. Under it, Muslim excesses were attributed to individuals rather than their religion, and the collaborative roles played by local rulers were emphasized. Hindu religion was almost demonised as caste ridden and the conversions to islam were attributed mostly to the oppressive caste system and the message of love by the sufis, rather than by coercion. To what extent these sanitized texts changed the mindset of ordinary hindus is however a different matter altogether.

It will take a great time for these deluded Pakistani muslims to realize why Azim Premji eulogizes the secular roots of this great country and the tremendous freedom it offers......and how in no other country the head of the states belonging to different religions can occupy their position like we have in India....................

#45 by malikjahanzeb

[it not not the matte of finding the facts, rather it is a matter of defining facts which lead us to a better tomorrow.]

Malik Sahib, I am all for free travel, and Pakis with good intentions (and I’m sure there are a lot of them) will never misuse the visa-less travel facility that is being talked about here, but the problem is with Pakis of the Jihadi persuasion who have wreaked havoc inside India. You will agree with me that India is among the world’s worst terrorism-affected countries.

Romair fondly talks about how easy it is at the immigration counters in Canada, but does he realize that no notable act of terrorist violence has taken place on Canadian soil? Once that happens, it wouldn`t be too long before Canada goes the Dutch way. Remember the broad daylight murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh and the subsequent calls for expulsion of Muslims from Holland?

For an Indian, the ordinary Paki is perhaps the friendliest amongst all the people on Earth because of the obvious similarities, but the problem is how do we distinguish the friendly Paki from the Jihadi Paki? After all, Omar Sheikh, the accused in the Daniel Pearl beheading was an LSE drop out.

In time, Pakistan may emerge out of the Jihadi mindset, but at least until then, I am in favor of tighter screening and monitoring.

Re: # 41

I can see why Pakis dislike you- anyway, Well said!

Interesting , when we are entertaining Mush`s Mother and Son, he is back to his stupid talks about Kargil recurrence in case Kashmir is not conceded to his military..............I do not think that those who want to come to India and enjoy it`s vibrant culture understand the damage that this idiot does to their interests when he opens his mouth about India or Kashmir!!!
It is time PAkistani Muslims realize that Mush would remain a liability than an asset when it comes to Indo-Pak relations!!

re:#35 by Romair
(I am not sure how well the Sindhis will interact. Not sure how much they have in common.)
Sindhi Hindus (some of the most prosperous business community in India and abroad) can contribute immensely to Sindh. Many Sindhis i have met in my life are nostalgic about their past and would like to contribute in some way.

In general, what u are saying is correct. Indian and Pak Punjab have a lot of commonalities which they have started to explore only recently. The same can be said of the 2 Kashmirs. I see a gradual reassertion of regional aspirations, especially among Punjabis, Sindhis etc.
South is cut off from this but in South, Pakistanis may find people shorn of religious divide and shorn off any hatred (having said this i sometimes cringe at the posts by Jay and others).

(I suppose, due to their relgion, Pakistanis might be viewing the invaders as one of them. Even though the invaders killed local Hindu and Muslim rulers alike. However, it seems as though scars of those invasions are still a main point of importance amongst Indians.........)
This only calls for a review of the subcontinental history in a new light. Amit is right when he says the invaders were foreigners. No doubt many settled down and enriched the landscape but still the fact remains: they were from outside. There was a time when the court language in Delhi was farsi!
Pakistan`s history teaches students that Ghouri and Ghazni are the real heros because they killed and punished idolators. In places like Gujarat, the scars (and hence the polarisation of 2 communiites) are deep. Nobody has forgotten what Ghazni did to Somnath temple. A revision of Pak history on more modern lines, keeping in mind the facts and getting rid of hatred and ideologies, would be a good beginning towards reconciliation.
Sridhar

brother harish,

you are seeing the different extreme of the same truth. this might seem boring but let me repeate, justice is in details, there is no black and white. differences are there and will remain untill nothing is being done. it is true that dawood, syed and bal thakrey are there but do not ignore gandhi and moulana abukalam azad too. it not not the matte of finding the facts, rather it is a matter of defining facts which lead us to a better tomorrow.

so, what do you choose?