Country Visa, City Visa

Satyamvada,

For the past 60 years, there has been a struggle going on for the soul of Pakistan. There is a large section of people there who want Pakistan to move away from the subcontinent, focus towards the middle east/central asia and emphasize on religious identity. The Pakistani establishment supported this ideology as a counter to India and believed that it was the only way to protect Islam in the subcontinent. The Pakistani Army with its support for jihad and strategic depth were a part of this ideology. On the other hand, the vast majority of ordinary people in Pakistan are very much rooted in the subcontinent. Their ethnic and cultural roots are 5000 years old and cannot be erased so easily. The ordinary people cannot help but feel close to India and Indian culture, which shows up in their obsession for Indian movies, music etc.

Today we have the opportunity of a lifetime to completely win over Pakistan to our side. Given our status as a emerging power with growing economic clout, we have the means to convince the Pakistanis to overwhelmingly move towards our camp. The US war on terror has already forced the Paksitan army and their establishment to do a U-turn with India. We just need to pick up the ball and make this U-turn irreversible. We should encourage Pakistan to evolve along the lines of Malaysia or Indonesia which are also muslim countries with a hindu past but who have developed pluralistic societies. We can not only finish jihad forever, but we may even end up with a loyal ally.

#29 by amit

[I think the mistake we Indians tend to make is that we blur the lines between muslim invaders and desi muslims.]

Of the 2000-strong Muslim mob that set fire to the coach at Godhra, I’m sure an overwhelming majority was desi Muslims.

[Last time I checked, Ghaznavi was a Turk, Ghauri was a Tajik and Babar a Uzbek. Do you see any Punjabis in that list?]

Dawood Ibrahim is an Indian Muslim, Chotta Shakeel is Indian, and Syed Salahuddin, the Hizbul Mujahideen chief is an Indian Muslim too.

#11 by amit

[But why can`t we have the same level of visa procedures with Pakistan that we have with other islamic countries?]

For the simple reason that Pakistan has a state-sanctioned policy of Jihad against India. ISI Agents have been apprehended as far as Hyderabad in South India. I belong to this city, and till date, about 25,000 Pakis have disappeared here after entering India on visit visas.

[What is the need for excessive police reporting, city specific visas, the fixation about the port of entry etc?]

Again, for the simple reason that it is easy to track down Pakis visiting India. As I said, despite this procedure, 25,000 Pakis are missing in just the city of Hyderabad.

Identity of indian muslims.

Indian muslims have said it loud and clear, they have nothing to do with jihadic pakistan. There is no indian muslim caught in afghanistan, there is no one in guantanamo bay while it has muslims from all over the world. Worlds secand largest muslim country india, did not send even a single muslim to be trained in pakistan to be sent to afghanistan.

No Beena, no pakistani will dare to admit this reality, there is no india muslim, no indian, and they do do not believe in pak values. Pakistanis have been caught in every part of the world, the latest is in australia, a pak medical student trained with alquida. It is time that indian fenced all of pak border and stopped letting any into india. How about that pak actress who went to bombay, she is to be prosecuted under blasphemy lasws, even the minister of pakistan and the mullahs had a lot to say about her. Beens, do you dare to arite anything about pak reaction about this incident. Pathetic is the only word for this type of trash

It is rather pathetic that Beena talks about the visa restrictions. Never a word has any one heard about a stupid kerala woman called Divya who married a pakistani, changed her religion, and pakistanis will not give visa for her to stay. Beena, tell the world can any one change from muslim to another religion in pakistan,. Tell the world Bina, whether any one can build a temple or a church in pakistan now.

The paki loving dost mitters and the stukas never dare to address these fundamental values that divide india and pakistan.

here is yet another non-sense. Already hundreds of pakistanis allowed to enter india in the name of cricket have vanished into thin air. They are sure to reemerge as Mullah akhtar, who got released after the hijacking. This liberalisation of visits is a one way trafic, not many indians want to visit pakistan, there are no relatives of hindus left there.
The laskers are still going strong. No indian of the ilk of stuka dares to admit that if oakistan is concerned about human rights in kashmir why there is no support for some kinf kashmir liberation organisation, whay all of the pak organisation the so called supporters of kashmiris are called laskers, jaish mohammed etc. It iss pathetic that the dost mitters and stukas who visited pakistan never dared to ask this question to the pakistansi, or to investigate this.

The fact is that pakistan is a jihadic country, slowly and steadily, the hoodood and blasphemy las are set in stone in pakistan, and the vision of laskers is the same for kashmir. There will always be killings across jihadic frontiers, fencing of pak and bangla borders is the right step. One should follow the US example and introduce further restrictions. I do hope that the next attack on parliment will end all this crap about pakistanis coming to india.
It si time that the indians accept the reality, travel is one way, laskers coming to india.

mohar...
i being an ex-jihadi never used the recognised borders to get to the enemy territory ...only fools and fiction writers do that...this is just for your information... :)

Amit:

Though your intentions are noble, you seem very ``naive`` to me.. It is right that we should NOT live in the past.. But we should NOT close our eyes to the PRESENT too.

While we see the Indian society (at least a significant portion of it) getting worked up over Modi and his ``perceived`` treatment of ``minorities``, and fights against him, you see the re-inclusion of ``religion`` column on the passport of Pakistan..and you don`t see a whimper of protest there.

In Pakistan, the society is so ``jihadised``, it`d be a suicide to have open borders or the ``friendship`` that you are talking about. We need a really ``tolerant`` Islam being practised in India and its surroundings before we can think about opening up etc..etc.. They have suicide bombers going into each other`s mosques.. Even though we have caste clashes now and then, (fortunately, I haven`t heard of major caste flare-ups in India for a long time), that`s nothing compared to the intra sect rivalry in Pakistan.. Do we really need to get involved at this point of time.. The ideal thing to happen is the growth of a ``tolerant Islam`` in India that spreads its wings in both directions..

When you say, indian culture is same as the pakistani culture I believe you are talking about the punjabi culture..

satyamvada #31,
I agree that Amit`s too optimistic about Ind-Pak ties, but basically he`s right that that we can`t live in the past. Ind-Pak is not exactly Hidu-Muslim thing, because we have Muslims in our country too. Plus past violence should not mean that we cannot live peacefully in the future. Ofcourse there are a lot of issues and it will take some time to resolve but too much negetivity and bitterness due to the past wont do us any good.

I think if things open up between India and Pakistan, the comradarie will depend on the geographical region one belongs to. My guess is that four regions will blend together quite nicely, while the remaining will remain somewhat aloof.

Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab will get along well. And Indian Kashmir and Pakistani Kashmir will get along well. Pakistani Kashmiris are Punjabi speakers, while Indian Kashmiris speak different languages. But through Pakistani Kashmir, Indian Kashmir will be linked to Punjab also. Infact, the trade routes, roads etc. make it easier to export items from Indian Kashmir to various parts of India, through Pakistan than through India, itself.

Everyone else will be on ok terms. But not the brotherly love type stuff. The main commonalities between India and Pakistan are really concentrated towards the North, i.e. North India and Pakistan. That is where the cultural commonalities occur.

I am not sure how well the Sindhis will interact. Not sure how much they have in common. The Pathans have more in common with Afghanis than with Punjabis.

I think Pakistanis greatly underestimate the Hindu Indians take on history and how affected they seem by it. Most Pakistanis do not go much into the Ghauris and Ghazanavis etc. While they do talk about the British rulers. I suppose, due to their relgion, Pakistanis might be viewing the invaders as one of them. Even though the invaders killed local Hindu and Muslim rulers alike. However, it seems as though scars of those invasions are still a main point of importance amongst Indians.........

I think, at a certain point, one has to let go of history..............

I tend to agree with Beena that reporting to police is a big hassle and harrassment. India should visa rules strict. Dont issue visa if there`s slightest suspicion. But once issued, Pakis should be given right to travel anywhere and everywhere. Giving visas to one city and place is ridiculous. Bureaucracy sucks!

#29....
Amit,
I dont disagree with you. I was trying to refute your claims that hindus have not been treated badly while being ruled under muslims and Hindus and Muslims have lived in peace for last 700 years.
Hindus could easily forgive the past but not forget it. We have to be very careful while dealing with Pakistan and Bangladesh. Both these countries government is not India friendly. There are lot of elements in these countries and government that would love to harm india.
I would like India to have wonderful relationship with both Pak & Bangla. We have to take these relationship building slowly and not be euphoric in our actions.

#29....
Amit,
I dont disagree with you. I was trying to refute your claims that hindus have not been treated badly while being ruled under muslims and Hindus and Muslims have lived in peace for last 700 years.
Hindus could easily forgive the past but not forget it. We have to be very careful while dealing with Pakistan and Bangladesh. Both these countries government is not India friendly. There are lot of elements in these countries and government that would love to harm india.
I would like India to have wonderful relationship with both Pak & Bangla. We have to take these relationship building slowly and not be euphoric in our actions.

Amit wrote:
``Please explain how did hindus and muslims coexist for a 1000 years? How come
India has hindu majority even after 700 years of muslims rule? ``

huh ?
Have you bothered to read history ? Have you visited any historical sites ?
Can you tell me about how many major temples in the north are left standing ?
You probably got your history from Nehru`s `Discovery of India`.

Go to Hampi in Karnataka to learn about co-existence. Also, learn about what is
called Dhimmitude. Spend some time reading and learning about ideologies and
what *other* people think of you and what they value. Dont be so self absorbed and
try to impose your ``feelings`` on others.

Amit,

Please stop bullshitting.

No one is worried about what happened hundreds of years ago. The issue is about
behaviour and values of communities today.

Pakiland and India are also different because of differences in value systems and
institutional differences.

Let us see if you have the guts to tell the truth. My guess is that you are one of those
``lets hold hands and pretend that we are all the same`` nonsense when in reality you are
nothing more than a dhimmi.

Re:Ashutosh_Gandhi#27

I think the mistake we Indians tend to make is that we blur the lines between muslim invaders and desi muslims. Muslim invaders were all from outside the subcontinent such as Turkey, Central Asia, Arabs or even Iranians. Those invaders did indeed commit slaughter and mayhem and I am well aware of that history. However, muslims of desi origin in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan, are 99.9% descendents of local people i.e. hindus, who converted. These people or their ancestors never attacked or slaughtered hindus. In fact, their ancestors probably faced the burnt of the attacks from the muslim invaders. Of course, they might have been attracted to the faith for other reasons as well.

The irony is that we Indians have excellent relations with each of those countries that actually sent invaders over here. However, we target all our historical frustrations on desi muslims who had nothing to do with it. In a sense both muslims and hindus in the subcontinent are brainwashed and living out absurd fantasies. The muslims fantasize about being the military winners in India and pretend to carry out the legacy of those days such as jihad, when they are really descendents of hindus. The hindus buy into that fantasy and imagine the desi muslims to be enemies and representatives of those invaders. You will see the RSS types foaming about Pakistanis but you never hear any accusations against Turkey or Central Asia. Last time I checked, Ghaznavi was a Turk, Ghauri was a Tajik and Babar a Uzbek. Do you see any Punjabis in that list?